Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Sansker]

I still consider the tone in Force is not up for this. Vita was regressive in the first battle with Nanoha but at no point the Wolkenritter go to the extremes the Hückebein family goes and there is when the “let’s be friends” thing starts to crack. If you go that route then show more sings of actual good in the villains or make the heroes looks less of a simpleton.

For all the things we can joke with Nanoha and her “be friends or be shot” we can agree the stories of the first two seasons and even a little StrikerS, did show us her nature. She wants to understand and reach out for others, the villains show us they have principles and moral even when they are enemies and we learn they might be force in to their bad actions. There was something to work there.

Here? I already point out the Hückebein family evil deeds and they don’t show any kind of redeemable qualities in front of Thoma who keeps going with the idea as some kind of idiot. Just saying it makes the character looks really bad when that is add to his constant beating and he lacks of real protagonism since capture. I am not against the idea of Thoma doing similar things than Nanoha I just think the character was different from the start and handle in to that position because that is what Nanoha’s does. And to make matters worse they really are not doing this idea well, so my point is: fix it if you want to go that way or be original and make Thoma a different person. I can take a hero that doesn’t want to be friends with the psychotic killer family.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Here? I already point out the Hückebein family evil deeds and they don’t show any kind of redeemable qualities in front of Thoma

They stopped him from killing Lily and Isis. They offered him a way to cope with his infection. They didn't kill Lily or Isis while they had them in their captivity. They tried to prevent him from committing suicide. They didn't obliterate Mobile Section Six in an attempt to retake him when they secured him.

Plenty of redeemable qualities right there to show they're not the pure evil monsters people like to make them out to be.

[Kurohane]

Plus, would you perfer them to whine and act pitiful, as "its not my fault, its the virus" showing they don't even have the strength to have control over their lives.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

They stopped him from killing Lily and Isis. They offered him a way to cope with his infection. They didn't kill Lily or Isis while they had them in their captivity. They tried to prevent him from committing suicide. They didn't obliterate Mobile Section Six in an attempt to retake him when they secured him.

Plenty of redeemable qualities right there to show they're not the pure evil monsters people like to make them out to be.

But only because they want him to join their ranks and that because he as the Silver Cross. Veyron wanted to take that and the Divider at first, he didn't care about Thoma. All of that is just them pulling their tricks to get Thoma. They say that themselves, they didn't kill Isis or Lily because they don't kill innocents, they stop Thoma only because they wanted to capture him. This is just looking for their own interest.

[Kurohane]

Have you known criminals to go through all that trouble and act as hospitable as they had for one kid they just met?

[Rising Dragon]

They weren't aware of Thoma's status of being a Zero Divider when they first nabbed him, Lily, and Isis anyway.

[Akiyoshi]

Still i must agree with Rising this time, the Hucks do have shown some kindness towards Tohma, even if that's only in order to fulfill their selfish goals. The entire point of this is that Tohma is too guillible and cuts them way too much slack when is evident they have an agenda and are willing to take lives in order to do so.

Nanoha has always been kind and open to reach her foe's feelings but she also tends to keep some healthy level of common sense which Tohma seems to lack. Nanoha learned from Fate not every adversary is open about their reasons and that she cannot talk her way out of every confrontation, her first reaction against Vita was to request the latters motivations, once it was clear Vita is not cooperative Nanoha quickly switched to the agressive approach which is toally justified in that case. With each battle it was been more and more evident Vita have a strong reason for doing what she's doing and Nanoha is a bit more strict and a bit more kind each fight they have until the point it finally stuck on Vita's head that Nanoha really wants to help her from heart.

Ironically, Tohma is FAR more innocent than the 9-year old little girl xDU

[Sansker]

I still mean what I say. The Hückebein lack the qualities to justify Thoma’s innocent idea about them. Maybe is just how they create them as antagonist and then they made them in to something else without any kind of arc to it. Was just like “The Hückebein are the bad guys and… then they are not” is a little too fast and really hard to take after the already mention mass murders they did commit without any care at all. Is how I feel them.

And later Thoma does the same with the Grendel family which, so far, are just a bunch of dangerous idiots who put several lives in danger for no good reasons and Thoma just says “I will save them”. Give me a break guys, I can’t just take this kind of things. Nanoha had devoted entire seasons to reach that level of empathy with her opponents. Thoma just see them and then he decides to do it.

[Kurohane]

Actually, Thoma said nothing of the sort. At most, he just said lay down your arms, in accordence with TSAB procedure. Also, we're not sure what the Huckebein have actually done other than the raid on Vandein. Remember, Vandein Eclipse infectees have been using their names singling them out to the TSAB.

[Akiyoshi]

Sansker is referring to the latter chapter that are already translated in Spanish since a long time ago, and yeah, Tohma do shown the same level of instant empathy towart the Grendels as well xDU

On Tohma's defense, it was more or less stablished at the moment Carter and his girls are in real danger of losing their lives at the moment so it's kind of understandable Tohma emphazises with kids nearly his age and suffering the same conditions that are about to die in front of him.

[Kaijo]

Our own studies bear out the Bureau's general approach: reforming works better than standard punishment. The Bureau would have been within their rights to toss the Wolkenritter into prison for decades. They would have been within their rights to do that with the cyborgs. But instead, they "saved" them and allowed them to reform and become productive members of society.

What Thoma is doing with the Hucks (and possibly Grendels), is no different than what the Bureau and Nanoha do: trying to save bad people, to turn them good. Given that the Nanohaverse is an idealistic universe, this approach stands a good chance of working. In fact, a cynical person like Sansker would be seen in this universe as being ultimately wrong, since idealism ultimately triumphs. This would be different if the Nanohaverse were a cynical universe; then, actions like Nanoha's and Thoma's would be seen as stupid and getting people killed.

[Sansker]

I still consider the entire idea of Thoma and his friendly nature with every single criminal he sees to be odd. But I guess Aki is right. That much can be say on its defense but I still consider him to be even less impressive each time I see that from Thoma. If he tries the same with Hardis then it will be all done.

And I don't think the idealism is wrong I just say it falls flat when confront with such not ideal bad people as Fate and the Wolkenritter. In then end this is still going for a more serious note with murders, mutilations and etc. but keeps the kids like logic where everything is good. I mean there is good on everyone, I agree that much, but so far the criminals show no signs they deserve such sympathy or that they should be deal with such consideration. They want to reform them? Great, but they are not bad children skipping dinner. They are murders that need to be stop and deal with. Thoma still takes a weak, not intelligent approach to this matter.

[Rising Dragon]

Do you have the same issue with Nanoha? Because if you don't, then it just looks like you're singling out one character out of dislike for him.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Sansker is referring to the latter chapter that are already translated in Spanish since a long time ago, and yeah, Tohma do shown the same level of instant empathy towart the Grendels as well xDU

On Tohma's defense, it was more or less stablished at the moment Carter and his girls are in real danger of losing their lives at the moment so it's kind of understandable Tohma emphazises with kids nearly his age and suffering the same conditions that are about to die in front of him.

You mean when they had the bombs explode? I haven't seen scans after that happened.

Heh, reading the chapter again makes me realize Isis still has distrust for the TSAB, when Signum asked her to asist in the air. She got a little frustrated saying, "Oh! you'll just order me to do it if I say no!" That kind of cracked me up.

[Akiyoshi]

Except the TSAB and Nanoha's actions are far better executed than Tohma's and his "instantly forgiven" policy. The TSAB offer the chance of redeeming to those they think can go trough with it. Quattro and Scaglietti are good example that the Bureau is aware some criminals MUST stay behind bars. And even then, the ones given the chance must undergo a long process of readjustment ...something that seems to escape Tohma's head at least from waht we've seen so far.

Another interesting point is that, unlike past villains, the Huckebein know what they're doing and are perfectly ok with it, Fate already attempted the peacefull apporach with Deville and the latter explained to her in full detail why that's NOT gonna work with them xDU If the Hucks will be transformed into good guys i bet it will be in a far different and extreme way than previous seasons ...well heandled, that promises to be a pretty interesting challenge to peaceseekers Nanoha and Tohma xD

[Rising Dragon]

Now, remind me where exactly Thoma is "instantly forgiving" the Huckebein or Grendel families of their crimes? Because I've been keeping up to date and that bloody well hasn't happened.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Do you have the same issue with Nanoha? Because if you don't, then it just looks like you're singling out one character out of dislike for him.

No, Nanoha is far different from Thoma and his over simple approach to this issue.

Besides I think the Hückebein are not good guys material at all. At least not in this idealist universe. They kill happily everything that gets in their way.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Except the TSAB and Nanoha's actions are far better executed than Tohma's and his "instantly forgiven" policy. The TSAB offer the chance of redeeming to those they think can go trough with it. Quattro and Scaglietti are good example that the Bureau is aware some criminals MUST stay behind bars. And even then, the ones given the chance must undergo a long process of readjustment ...something that seems to escape Tohma's head at least from waht we've seen so far.

Another interesting point is that, unlike past villains, the Huckebein know what they're doing and are perfectly ok with it, Fate already attempted the peacefull apporach with Deville and the latter explained to her in full detail why that's NOT gonna work with them xDU If the Hucks will be transformed into good guys i bet it will be in a far different and extreme way than previous seasons ...well heandled, that promises to be a pretty interesting challenge to peaceseekers Nanoha and Tohma xD

Actually, it was Devile who wanted to avoid fighting asking Fate to move aside. She refused.

Originally Posted by Sansker

No, Nanoha is far different from Thoma and his over simple approach to this issue.

Besides I think the Hückebein are not good guys material at all. At least not in this idealist universe. They kill happily everything that gets in their way.

This sounds the same as Thoma condoning the Huckebeins actions. We haven't seen them do this.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Now, remind me where exactly Thoma is "instantly forgiving" the Huckebein or Grendel families of their crimes? Because I've been keeping up to date and that bloody well hasn't happened.

I don't know, how about every time they get into contact with him? I mean really, the guy doesn't feel the slightiest sense of caution or doubt when referring directly to a member of the Huckebein family xDU Tohma is nothing short of "hey pal!" behavior towards them xDU

In fact, aside of the church fight against Veyron i can't remeber any sign of Tohma being cautious with the Hucks ...and the church example was only due to a misunderstanding, after that Tohma is just a-ok with Veyron all around xDU

Originally Posted by Sansker

No, Nanoha is far different from Thoma and his over simple approach to this issue.

Totally agreed.

Originally Posted by Sansker

Besides I think the Hückebein are not good guys material at all. At least not in this idealist universe. They kill happily everything that gets in their way.

As much as i would like to mantain my view of the Hucks as those of irredeemable monsters i must disagree. The Hucks were receiving tons of build up in recent chapter to make them anti-villains ...they indeed are willing to and happy to murder and destroy but they also mantain some sense of comradery between themselves and those they deem worthy of being part of their family ...they still are a bunch of nihilistic psychos, tough. While Tohma is instantly forgiving towards any poor soul afflicted with the EC virus the Hucks are perfectly ok with eviscerating any opposition, EC Drivers included (the Grendels are alive pretty much thanks to the TSAB xDU).

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I don't know, how about every time they get into contact with him? I mean really, the guy doesn't feel the slightiest sense of caution or doubt when referring directly to a member of the Huckebein family xDU Tohma is nothing short of "hey pal!" behavior towards them xDU

In fact, aside of the church fight against Veyron i can't remeber any sign of Tohma being cautious with the Hucks ...and the church example was only due to a misunderstanding, after that Tohma is just a-ok with Veyron all around xDU

Not being instantly hostile doesn't equate to absolving them of all their sins. That is, once again, your bias shining through. His lack of hostility is because he knows they're not entirely monsters.