2011-08-07, 21:35 | Link #12421 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
|
Quote:
I think that's what he meant. |
|
2011-08-07, 21:44 | Link #12423 | ||
We're Back
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
|
Quote:
You say the clones' contribute to the big picture by just existing, then in that case Mikoto also contributed to the big picture by just existing. Quote:
Worst was the closest but even she was beaten up.
__________________
|
||
2011-08-07, 21:48 | Link #12424 | |
The Mage of Four Hearts
Author
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 33
|
Quote:
I realize all of that, and it's true. Still, at some point she must come to learn about and accept the existence of magic and magicians. Whatever way she does, she must learn at some point.
__________________
|
|
2011-08-07, 21:52 | Link #12425 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
|
Quote:
Snipers on the roof Explosives ready to take down a building Burning away oxygen to suffocate people inside a building Cutting away their power Etc, etc. They'd be just as effective as Emiya Kiritsugu... except even more since they actually have viable powers. The only reason they haven't shown to be effective is because they haven't been put to good use by the author. Heck, take a couple of hundred of them and they could probably do a better job policing than AntiSkill. Who knows, maybe Touma would have his own personal SWAT squad soon enough. |
|
2011-08-07, 21:58 | Link #12428 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
|
Quote:
Providing Touma a motive... wasn't that a bit too passive a role? Quote:
I don't know, I'd like for her to at least do something to piss Aleister like Hamazura did. Quote:
EDIT Quote:
I could picture them been led by either Touma or Shiage, as both have a nice tactical sense. |
||||
2011-08-07, 22:20 | Link #12429 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
2011-08-08, 01:46 | Link #12430 | |||
We're Back
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
|
Quote:
Quote:
Firstly, it would be too impractical to employ a large number of them without drawing attention. According to Accelerator, the ten that they have in Academy won't stand a chance against even Hound Dog. When sent against Ollerus they got defeated (can't be helped, but since people point out Mikoto's weaker status against the strongest of magicians, it's only fair to use this example on the clones). On the Remnant arc, the only useful thing they did was to get Touma's help, when Last Order was being pursued they were no where in sight. There is nothing to suggest they have extensive combat skills beyond fighting Accelerator.... Even then they didn't do a good job. Quote:
Erm, I'm very certain a global nuclear winter would cause an even bigger deal than that current grand scheme. With a great disaster in the world, Fiamma's Holy Right powers would be invincible again. It's been bugging me for some time, don't you find it funny to judge the characters according to the only Aleister's plan? Like it's the only thing that matters? Therefore Hamazura is a completely worthless character right? Bardway serve no purpose right? Kanzaki is pointless right?
__________________
|
|||
2011-08-08, 02:09 | Link #12431 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
|
Quote:
And second, they won't stand a chance against Hound Dog as an organisation simply because they have the higher ups backing = Capacity down, numbers, Anti-Esper equipment. And you can't use Ollerus as an example. He defeated someone who is practically invulnerable in Academy City and has enough raw power to be considered the third strongest in Academy City discounting their ranking in terms of uses. Yes, Mikoto is only mid-tier power but she's far from being practical. When Last Order was captured, she was unconscious for half the time. The other half, she found their saviour. They can't mobilize while being blind to their enemy's tactics or even strength in numbers but they do recognize Touma's strength. That's probably why they stayed out. In the remnant arc, the only sister shown was 10032 and she was smart enough not to chase Awaki when even Mikoto had trouble landing a hit on her. Instead, she went to the first person she knew could counter Awaki's power = Kamijou Touma. Additionally, the sisters were close to unstoppable when they were sent to retrieve the Gemstones. Yes, impractical to use in large numbers. What if it wasn't? We're talking about their their hypothetical strength and they can be effective when using those tactics. It didn't work on Accelerator because of his ability. Try sniping Touma at a couple of hundred metres and he'll probably go down like a rock. Heck, try sniping at Mikoto and she'll probably go down if she doesn't react fast enough. I don't judge characters by their usefulness or anything but to me it seems like you're handwaving their potential usefulness in combat, especially when they've demonstrated combat practicality and the ability to adapt which was honed while fighting an unstoppable juggernaut. |
|
2011-08-08, 02:24 | Link #12432 | ||||||||
We're Back
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The Magic side isn't going to attack them with an army of Stiyls you know. Quote:
In other words circumstances prevented them from being useful, not all that different from Mikoto. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||||||||
2011-08-08, 02:36 | Link #12433 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
|
Quote:
Quote:
Even if I did say so (which I don't), Hamazura wouldn't be worthless as he's been destabilizing that plan after all. Any force that either helps it or impedes it is important to the plot. Anyway, with your last point, I'll admit that Mikoto has indeed played an important role for the main story beyond her blood, by preventing Fiamma from growing stronger... Now that I think about it, distracting the hound dogs back on Vento's invasion may also count, although that contribution is easier to disregard. |
||
2011-08-08, 02:41 | Link #12434 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
|
*Shrugs*
Maybe I am. But you're not giving them due credit either. Just saying. Not trying to raise a storm in this thread or anything but when Accelerator gives a comment on battle strength, it has usually been on a skewed side. To him, everything but Kamijou Touma, Aiwass and FUSE=Kazakiri are weak and only because they clashed with him and he couldn't one-shot them. Yes, I am aware that the Imouto's by far, are considered pathetically weak. Ok, granted, their usefulness has been limited and they have not shown any feats. Fine. But since you went through NS, I am thoroughly disappointed that you would consider these girls, who have undergone military training, shook off a teleporter hot on their heels and have been trained to operate various machines as pathetic as well. As an organisation of ten girls, they would be weak. But with proper tactics and the equipment, I daresay that they can take down most magicians with ease. Or at least, Magicians below Saint level. I'm not here to raise shitstorms, like I said, I'm just putting out the 'If their CIS was turned off' kind of thing out here. And in real life, you know how brutally effective hardcore military tactics can be. |
2011-08-08, 02:43 | Link #12435 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
|
Quote:
|
|
2011-08-08, 02:45 | Link #12436 | ||
どうだろうね。ふふ
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Chile
|
Quote:
I admit that probably a fully geared hound dog "is worth more" than a fully geared sister, but that does not erase the fact that they do have military training inserted into them by the testament and their are at their finest condition. The hound dogs are supposed to be "the top" from the shady underground military forces, since they are acting for Aleister benefit after all.
__________________
|
||
2011-08-08, 02:46 | Link #12437 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
|
Quote:
|
|
2011-08-08, 02:50 | Link #12438 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
|
Quote:
(... LOL, now it's raining on Chaos2Frozen...) |
|
2011-08-08, 03:11 | Link #12439 | ||||
We're Back
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
|
Quote:
The first sentence was a quote that Wolf wanted me to point out where Accelerator said the Imoutos would lose out to Hound Dog. The second sentence was a reply to him when he said that "they won't stand a chance against Hound Dog as an organisation simply because they have the higher ups backing = Capacity down, numbers, Anti-Esper equipment." So if that's not call being an inferior organization, then what is? Performance? They don't really have alot to show either. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It's because I was in NS (though I wasn't exactly drilled heavily in Urban warfare) that I know that you can't just throw down the word 'tactics' on the table and expect that it's an ace card that you can use to win in every situation. Tactics is a complicating organism that requires many things to go right and only need one thing to go wrong. And your argument is that given the best of everything (equipment and Training etc) the Imoutos can take on the best of magicians, again you're using the best case scenario but Okay, I can accept that- So if I give Anti-Skill the best of everything, so if I give Hound Dog the best of everything, if I give Mikoto the best of everything... The problem with using potential as an argument is that everybody has potential, as long as they have the best of everything, or as long as they don't do anything.
__________________
|
||||
2011-08-08, 03:25 | Link #12440 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
|
Quote:
To elaborate - The Imoutou's can - Pilot tanks, aircrafts, cars, etc. Assemble and accurately use a sniper rifle and a submachine gun. 10032 was able to shake off Kuroko who was in her 'chase Onee-sama' mode and did so pretty handily. The Misaka Sisters all devised workable tactics and continually pushed what they could do to overcome 'Vector Change'. They did not use half-baked attacks. They were practical and always knew when they had lost. 10032 has this in spades. When not able, she asked for help instead of fighting a losing battle. Yes, I know the part about Touma vs Accelerator is a point against that but that was because she was still part of the experiment and knew nothing about him. Additionally, she lasted the longest against Accelerator and actually gave Accelerator a run for his money. The Misaka in Russia devised appropriate tactics to counterattack against the military personnel there, stole one of their tanks and used Misaka Mikoto as the battering ram in every possible scenario. The Hound Dogs... tried to ram a car into Accelerator. Despite knowing what Acceleator's ability was. And lost to Accelerator in psychological warfare and ended up being slaughtered. They did even WORSE against Accelerator and as a group with Kihara Amata leading them at that. Compared to that, yeah, I'd say the SISTERS definitely have what it takes to go up against them. Just not as an organisation. Unless you add them all into the equation. I'm not saying give them the best of everything. Give them what they had - the Skills, the adaptability they showed when facing Accelerator and the weapons they deployed against him. The tactics also come into factor because they primarily used 'tactics' against Accelerator. Yes, I understand how fragile 'tactics' and 'strategy' can be. But it's precisely because they've shown to be completely and utterly practical (and sometimes, even effective) in their execution that I consider the Misaka clones primarily based on tactics. And while they lost and lost badly, they lost against two of the most broken people in history from both sides. I can deal with that. What I don't agree with is the fact that you think the SISTERS have not been putting up a show - When they have and I respect their tenacity for it. In my humble opinion, they are merely Overshadowed by Awesome. |
|
Tags |
action, dengeki bunko, fantasy, light novels, science fiction, shounen |
Thread Tools | |
|
|