2010-11-11, 07:17 | Link #2182 |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Munich, Germany
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This all "knowing or not knowing" is making tired. As both negates, it's time to provide proofs or to accept both opinions. No matter if one is better or not. Neither part will be able to convince the other as it's branded in their head.
This gets off topic by now. Somehow we can get back to topic?
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2010-11-11, 08:27 | Link #2183 |
A blast from the past
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Location: Fortaleza-CE, Brazil
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Somehow, I don't think they ever got out of the topic.
However, discussing opinions is quite tiresome, indeed. Sometimes, we get a bit of the LOLz in here, but most of the time, it's just tiresome...
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2010-11-11, 09:07 | Link #2184 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Earth
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Anyway, can you guys refrain from using swearing words in this thread? It is very painful for me to see my favorite character's thread got associated with swearing words (besides I think it's against the forum policy??) And....is it okay to spell her name correctly?? her name is not that long, R-A-N-K-A...I don't really care what you guys call her outside this thread, but please be a little considerate in here?? Of course, I am not a mod, so you don't have to follow my suggestion...just suggesting, that's all
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2010-11-11, 12:37 | Link #2185 | |||
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What the fuck are you talking about? I answered exactly what he asked. If you want to add to this conversation constructively, then please elucidate on the point I am supposedly dodging, instead of just stating nonsense.
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There is a very large difference between a "suicide" mission and a "last resort" mission, morally. One is an act of recklessness, while the other one is born out of all other possibilities having been closed off. Quote:
Bullshit. I answered. Quote:
That means that your hypothesis about her motivations is just purely conjectural, because we already have on one side a clear presence of statements of her intentions from the characters own mouth and on the other side zero factual evidence of what you are trying to sell as her "true" intention. That is actually true, but let's not get into political philosophy here, which would be totally OT.
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2010-11-11, 15:38 | Link #2186 |
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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Please stop the off-topic discussion of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate content. If you have a problem, please contact a moderator, or take the off-topic discussion to VM/PM.
For clarity's sake, 4Tran explicitly wrote "Do not insult or harass other members", and cursing as a way of answering a question (or as an exclamation of defense) is clearly a violation of that rule (more of an insult than an actual harassment). Additionally, while this is a PG-13 forum, cursing is acceptable as so long as it is not directed at other posters (if you want to scream at the creators, by all means, "yell" your head off, but do not turn that rage and/or annoyance on other posters). |
2010-11-11, 15:39 | Link #2187 | ||
Alto x Ranka :)
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York City
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You're right in saying that she might be putting Frontier in danger by leaving but it's also potentially dangerous for her to stay. If she does not have full control of the outcome, her leaving only puts herself (and Brera but that's besides the point) in danger rather than the people of Frontier. Quote:
While it is true that Ranka wasn't sure if the Vajra were specifically coming for her or not, that does not mean that she doesn't have an idea. The most significant fact here is that she is fully aware that she is the only person on Frontier that has the power to effect the Vajra in one way or another. Another fact is in episode 21, when Ranka was used as bait. She sang and it lured the Vajra into one area so wouldn't that mean that this alone should be enough for her to realize that they follow her when she sings? By leaving, Ranka can do much more for Frontier if we take this into consideration. Naturally, we can't be sure that Ranka had this in mind but once again we don't know what is going on in Ranka's head during this predicament. We know what her motivations are for leaving but her recovering memories make it difficult for her to thoroughly explain what's on her mind. Just to make things as clear as I can, Ranka also didn't want to sing anymore because she feared what her singing would do. So rather than stay on Frontier and do nothing, she opted to leave and try to do something to help.
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Last edited by DeX-kun; 2010-11-11 at 15:57. |
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2010-11-11, 15:41 | Link #2189 | |
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Age: 48
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2010-11-11, 15:51 | Link #2191 |
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I like Ranka. I find her cute, and her personality fun. While she may lack the perceived "depth" of Sheryl, her eagerness to better herself (if sometimes for false reasons) and her desire to act (if sometimes too soon) make her a compelling and fun character.
*note: I have only seen the anime series, so any comment I have made is entirely based on the series. |
2010-11-11, 16:00 | Link #2192 | ||
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That being said, thinking analytically about what the best course of action was, from my point of view Ranka should have stayed, since to the best of her knowledge Leon was not an evil conspirator but the new legitimate president of Frontier. She couldn't have known that he was trying to kill Ozma and Cathy and was conspiring with Grace. While she did surely realize that her power could have both positive and negative effects on the Vajra, staying would have enabled the military of Frontier to conduct field tests to determine how it worked. Her running off on her own with only half an idea of what made her powers work in a particular way left her with much less support than she would have received on Frontier. And, as it turned out, made her an easy target for Grace. Quote:
After Ai-kun changed into his next form, she didn't state at any time that she knew that the Vajra were coming only for her. She did make clear statements, however, what her motivations for leaving were. As follows: "I've been able to piece together small fragments of my past lately. It's scary, but it feels like I have to find out about it no matter what. It just really feels that way... that is why I will go." "I want to at least take Ai-kun back to where his friends are." Those are two pretty clear statements. She wants to find her past and bring Ai-kun back. There is simply no statement here where she gives any hint that she has an idea that she knows her leaving will stop all attacks. On the contrary, she directly states that reason number one is why she will go. Furthermore, re-watching this again ( and you are cruel, cruel people for making me do so repeatedly! ), I can't see her being very stressed while saying these exact phrases. She actually seems awfully calm. So a "communication failure" due to stress seems even more unlikely.
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2010-11-11, 16:23 | Link #2193 |
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I still for the most part maintain that Ranka was just in a bad position. She made a decision and while I can't say it was the best decision, she did nevertheless make one and stick to it. I do not believe it was a decision made out of malice or necessarily even selfishness, nor do I think she'd make a decision that she knew would harm others. In the re-watch thread I'll be watching Ranka a bit more closely to get a feel for what she must feel at any given moment. One theory I might suggest for the funeral is that she might have taken a measure of personal responsibility for the deaths of the soldiers, remembering how her singing actually seemed to make them more aggressive. I could see why someone would not want to sing if they thought they might have even accidentally had a hand in the deaths.
I'd also have to say that I feel Ranka never seemed to handle stress terrifically well, but improved throughout the series. Her dissociative amnesia was part of that, but she eventually overcomes it. The Ranka that left Frontier was different from the one that Alto saved at the start of the series. I don't recall any indication that she knew the Vajra were coming for her at the point that she left Frontier though, but maybe I'll notice something in the rewatch. |
2010-11-11, 18:47 | Link #2194 | |
Minmay Guard
Join Date: May 2009
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Saying "At least, I want to take Ai-kun back to where his friends are" is a pretty definite statement that she has more than one thing she wants to accomplish, no? And that those things are not stated?
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2010-11-11, 19:01 | Link #2195 |
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Lancel, the important note is that Ranka has to be confident and that it is her decision and no one should influence it.
Until episode 21 her decisions was mostly because of one person. What she had to learn is that "Your songs are like your heart, they belong to no one but you." Brera said this to her before she sung to lure the Vajra into Island 3. I think it is an important note for her that she is not a tool. Maybe he said this as he is also a tool and does not want her to end like him but also to be more confident. Her decision is clear and if someone has missed the scenes, here are the screenshots to verify that she is aware of her past and that she will and wants to go to the place where it all began: "I'm scared, Conclusion: The scenes between is also important. As the tendency of Macross is "either us or the Vajra!" (quoted Lucca from episode 21) this seems not to be a slogan Ranka has confidence in. And that Ai-kun did not kill her is justification enough for her theory that Vajras can be different and not only giant sized killerbugs. But sad to mention it is Alto who is all deaf to her words and which heatens up the situation. AND F*censore*K Yot-chan was faster D: But glad that we mostly think the same. Edit: magnus, it does not matter if she knows if macross is defenseless or not. It's not her responsibility any longer as she "cannot" sing anymore (to my understanding the missing part is "to sing as a tool"). As well it's the army men who are responsible to protect and not a civilian. Ranka is not part of the army and as a volunteer she took her free will to make a decision.
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Last edited by Father Hentai; 2010-11-11 at 19:17. |
2010-11-11, 19:40 | Link #2196 | ||
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And, yes, she stated the other things she wanted to do before the sentence about Ai-kun. Read the quote again. "I've been able to piece together small fragments of my past lately. It's scary, but it feels like I have to find out about it no matter what. It just really feels that way... that is why I will go." So, yep, she has two clearly stated goals. None of them include "And I need to go away from Frontier, because I am the sole cause they are coming here". Quote:
And that she "cannot sing anymore" is directly contradicted by going to the Vajra and singing for them to appease them. Or do you really want to sell the notion that Rankas intent in episode 23 was to enrage the Vajra with her singing? And, honestly, what exactly is your argument here? "Okay, Ranka isn't responsible for the lives of her fellow citizen, which she before promised to protect! She can leave them to die at any time!"? Is that really what you want to hang on Ranka? You should think a bit what the reverse implications of an assigned motivation are before claiming it for your heroine.
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2010-11-11, 20:09 | Link #2197 | ||
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Wow, you really give her absolutely NO credit, do you?
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2010-11-11, 20:24 | Link #2198 | |
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1) other took the decision that she is the hope of the fleet: 2) It was decided that she has to take part of the experiment: 3) She sees the decision by the government herself as presumptuous: 4) She just wanted to sing and not to be a songstress of hope: This was episode all in episode 16. May we give the government the credit that the intention at the beginning was honest, at the end it just ended her being used as a tool. And that is the sad part. She really was not asked if she all wanted to be. Maybe she may get used to it, but at heart she always felt that she was singing for only one person. And no, I did not say that she does want frontier fleet to die but there are more than one way to protect the fleet even without her. Ranka finally makes her steps and decided to leave because she feels going back to the vajra planet is what she has to do. I don't agree that she has to stay with Frontier, because Frontier is capable to defend even though the scientists are slow. But each time the Vajra enhance, Macross can enhance their defense as well or they could have changed their flight route. And I don't add her to macross defense options because she is not a tool. To simplify what I am thinking: This is why I am being very defense in case of Ranka but I would also think the same of Sheryl, Klan and (Yot-chan, don't be jealous) Nanase.
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Last edited by Father Hentai; 2010-11-11 at 21:11. |
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2010-11-11, 20:28 | Link #2199 | ||
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@Father Hentai: Also interesting quotes from episode 16, 17 and 18: Ep 16: Ozma: Is this what you wished for? Ranka: Yes Ozma: I understand Ep 17: Ranka: All right! If my singing can be even the slightest help, that's for the best, right? I'll sing. It'll be my best singing. Ep 18: Leon: She wanted to do this. She said she wants to protect the fleet even if it puts her life in jeopardy. ... President Glass: Will you do it, Ranka-san? Ranka: <nods> I'd say that those are pretty definite statements that she agreed to protect Frontier.
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2010-11-11, 20:56 | Link #2200 |
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I reviewed the sentences you quoted but the problem I had is it did not truly convince me.
Ep 16: Ozma: Is this what you wished for? Ranka: Yes Ozma: I understand - There was a long gap until Ranka replied as well as Ozma confirmed. For me there still seems to be an inner conflict. Ep 17: Ranka: All right! If my singing can be even the slightest help, that's for the best, right? I'll sing. It'll be my best singing. - She asked Alto how he thinks of the experiment. And I believe (as a girl in love) Ranka just agreed because of Alto Ep 18: Leon: She wanted to do this. She said she wants to protect the fleet even if it puts her life in jeopardy. - Leon said this. I have doubt if this was really her words or he just said so to promote Ranka as the songstress of hope. My apologies, but before I trust a sly fox like Leon, I macronize myself and exchange fluids with a Vajra... President Glass: Will you do it, Ranka-san? Ranka: <nods> - Ok, this may be a valid point that she agreed to defend. (How far is Ranka into the role that she has forgotten why she was exactly singing?) The points you noted are quite good, but ony the last sentence can be a point to discuss that she agreed. All other are - for myself - questionable.
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