(L) Shingeki no Bahamut ~Virgin Soul~ (S2)

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by zalem

Because that's the way the show is selling it. It totally feels like the "tragic hero" route. And Nina will forgive him because he's just such a great guy. He's just "misunderstood." Why Nina likes him to begin with boggles the mind. And it seems like she only really got upset with him because of the El thing and his order to have her killed, which Favaro conveniently gave excuses for. So she's either an idiot or has some really messed up morals.

or maybe peoples around her are even more idiots to trying to justify him, because he was really the one which put el head in reward, he was very clear about wanting el death because he was the only one on the way of his plans, just because he don't told direct the idiot guy to kill him this don't means which the guy didn't have a reason to kill him in first place, this serie is so desperated to make charioce looks like a "tragic hero" or anti-hero which they are using a lot of poor and bs narrative to somehow redeem him at any cost, even using others "heroes to try to portrait him as a "hero".

[Wolfpack]

I'm wondering how this will all end. Ever since El got killed, I've had to re-evaluate my assumptions. A naive part of me even wonders if Amira will get saved; I seriously doubt it.

[BetoJR]

This really reeked a bit. I just hope Nina doesn't forgive him this easily, but who am I kidding?

[Fairy Water]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

This really reeked a bit. I just hope Nina doesn't forgive him this easily, but who am I kidding?

forgive about what? Broke her heart? It's not like they r dating or anything

I honestly don't know how will this end as well but Nina probably won't let Charioce suicide, there should be enough deaths of the men she cares for already.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Fairy Water

forgive about what? Broke her heart? It's not like they r dating or anything

Really? Is that all he has to be forgiven for?

[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

The problem is he could have gotten most of what he wanted done with no slavery, genocide, etc.

Actually, while the stuff about him not being ultimately at fault for the attempt on Nina's life and El's murder is pretty bullshit, the slavery and genocide now makes a certain amount of horrible, logical sense to me.

The men discover records of an ancient technology that predates the arrival of gods and demons (but notably is not remarked to predate men,) and these records indicate that there existed a weapon mighty enough to slay even Bahamut.

The men think, "Huh... well, it looks like the seal is going to break sooner rather than later and every time Bahamut wakes up we take it on the chin first because the gods and demons both have places far, far away to hide. Maybe it's a good idea if we get this weapon and kill him before it happens again."

Unfortunately, the gods sealed away the mightiest weapons of this technology, and they probably did it for a reason that was at the very least important to them. It should be noted that most displayed instances of this technology seem perfectly suited to fighting gods and demons... Anyway, if the gods aren't likely to unseal the tech peacefully then it may sadly need to be taken by force in order to enact the "Kill Bahamut for good!" plan.

However this poses a new problem because the demons have a history of being openly antagonistic to the men, so if the men attack the sanctuaries of the gods then there is a reasonable chance that the demons will attack the undefended lands of men while their armies are occupied. Fortunately, there is no love lost between gods and demons and the men already have enough of the technology to at least defeat the demons, so the logical order of events is to first neutralize the demons, lock them down enough to neuter any hope of rebellion, and then raid the sanctuaries of the gods, restore the ancient superweapon and kill Bahamut.

It's an ugly, horrific plan, but it's not necessarily illogical if the only aim is to kill Bahamut at any cost. However, concealing the full extent of this plan from the common man after the divine sanctuaries have already been raided makes no sense at all, since it would probably at the very least have gotten a few more of his own citizens on board.

[TheForsaken]

Why did Charioce use slavery? Because it works.

Slavery boosts production greatly. There is a reason why slavery existed in our real world for thousands of years, and we enslaved our own people. Demons are different species, they are even human's enemies so why not?

Regarding genocide, I didn't see any. Charioce killed to get what he wanted, but he didn't go around killed all demons systematically.

By the way, you guys also need to remember that this is an anime. There is a stereotypical portrayal of slavery in media, in which slave owners are all lunatics who torture and murder their slaves for the lulz. So don't it take it too seriously.

[zalem]

Originally Posted by Alhazred

It's an ugly, horrific plan, but it's not necessarily illogical if the only aim is to kill Bahamut at any cost. However, concealing the full extent of this plan from the common man after the divine sanctuaries have already been raided makes no sense at all, since it would probably at the very least have gotten a few more of his own citizens on board.

But it's not a good plan. Because unless you have the strength to literally wipe out both the gods and the demons eventually it's going to come back and bite you on the ass. He didn't succeed in getting rid of them, he just made them very angry and resentful. Rebellion ripe in the making. All they needed was a leader to rally around, which they got.

And now Favaro is giving the lame excuses like "oh but he didn't order El's death. He didn't want war with the gods! Why would he want that? He just wants to kill Bahamut!" But he set up that war long ago, so he's getting it whether he wants it now or not.

[scififan]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Why did Charioce use slavery? Because it works.
.....
Regarding genocide, I didn't see any. Charioce killed to get what he wanted, but he didn't go around killed all demons systematically.
....

I see you are bored, so you want to argue for a sake of arguing.

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[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by zalem

But it's not a good plan. Because unless you have the strength to literally wipe out both the gods and the demons eventually it's going to come back and bite you on the ass. He didn't succeed in getting rid of them, he just made them very angry and resentful. Rebellion ripe in the making. All they needed was a leader to rally around, which they got.

And now Favaro is giving the lame excuses like "oh but he didn't order El's death. He didn't want war with the gods! Why would he want that? He just wants to kill Bahamut!" But he set up that war long ago, so he's getting it whether he wants it now or not.

El is the element that breaks the plan, and not something that he could plan for. He hurt the demons enough that Lucifer was advocating just waiting out the storm rather than trying to strike back. They were effectively pushed off-side until Azazel's impassioned plea changed Lucifer's mind. The gods weren't willing to mount an offensive until they had El, and El's death brought his mother out of retirement as a holy warrior, rallying point for the faithful. Killing El screwed the pooch but until that the plan seems to have been working pretty well for him.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by scififan

I see you are bored, so you want to argue for a sake of arguing.

Yeah, if the anime really starts to justify the guy's plan, somehow... I'm gonna barf. Like, really. I'm hoping they don't.

[DemonneoPT]

But his plans were justified. You don't have to agree with them or being obligated to think Charioce is a nice guy after all tho. What it matters to me is that the plan makes sense, just like @Alhazred summarized so well. They needed a king willing to do all of the horrible things portrayed in the anime just to achieve their goal, so of course Charioce is not a nice guy. Even tho it was against Charioce will, since it was obvious he had feelings for Nina, he still ordered for her and El to be killed to avoid the failure of his plan. Killing Bahamut was all he and his followers wanted, so humans can live in a world without being at mercy of an overpowered and all mighty god of destruction named Bahamut (and sure, vengeance against it was definitely mixed with such a noble objective). Was that the best course of action? Was all the suffering justified? Probably not and only a dark person could pull this off and lead such plan. The only thing the anime tried to sell is that even tho Charioce is capable of so many horrible things, he still had a soul with him. And if Bahamut or all the events from 10 years ago never existed, he probably would live an happy life without making horrible deeds. He is not evil for the sake of being evil. He just had a goal and a fucked up mentality to carry on such goal, that in the end could actually give a future to humanity. Sometimes villains want the same thing as the heroes, but they are just willing to follow a path that is not ethical at all. Simple as that.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

But his plans were justified.

Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree. There are other ways to get around to the same thing, after all. This was just the "easiest" (notice the quotation marks to imply the irony in that statement). If that's the message the anime is trying to portray, I'm gonna be very disappointed, personally. But I'm pretty sure you're right on the money.

[SeijiSensei]

Where is the evidence that Bahamut posed any kind of contemporaneous threat to Anatae? It seemed like it was still locked safely away at Eidos as it had been for a decade. Isn't this all an act of hubris on Charioce's part?

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Where is the evidence that Bahamut posed any kind of contemporaneous threat to Anatae? It seemed like it was still locked safely away at Eidos as it had been for a decade. Isn't this all an act of hubris on Charioce's part?

Not hubris, more like revenge. And yeah, there was no indication Bahamut was going to come back any time soon. They just said there was evidence he would inevitably come back "someday". Last time he was sealed, it lasted two thousand years. And the only reason the seal broke was because Martinet manipulated Amira into stealing the God key.

They wanted to deal with the inevitable sooner than later, but the timetable they gave themselves seems way too short. With more time, perhaps more paths could have opened up to them. Maybe they could have found a way to use the ancient technology without the deadly side-effects. Maybe a more thorough study of Eibos and the texts they found would have made them realize this is a set-up by Martinet (still think this is likely to be the case). Lots of maybes, but I definitely think they rushed into this thing and that's going to bite them in the ass.

[willyvereb]

Apparently the seal wouldn't have lasted very long. It was leaking out just a while after Bahamut was sealed and they added stuff made from ancient tech to reinforce it. Why did they keep this a secret? No idea. But after 10 years the situation was that they either unlock the seal or the device which keeps it shut overloads and destroys most of the continent.
Yes, the alternative to letting Charioce live was apparently the end of the world as we know it.

No idea if this was some sorts of incompetence on the human side or just plain testament of what is required to keep Bahamut sealed. Given the rock-paper-scissor nature of magic since S2 it could be even that the seal was made for Bahamut and with Amira's half-angel and half-demon soul the seal was perhaps almost completely ineffective. No idea.

It's just that from the details they said the alternative to releasing Bahamut was to doom the entire continent to destruction. I don't get into who was right or wrong there but the reason why they were in such hurry was explained clear enough.

[Blaat]

Preview images of the next episode are out, I really need to know what's happening with Kaisar's shocked face. It looks brilliant.

[Mistyclear]

Me through this episode HA Alessand that's like perfect justice there... child killer killed by a child.
Towards the end of the episode me NOOOOO KAISER!

[foxbox360]

Poetic Justice indeed.

[SeaDoor]

Rita's Zombie Wave FTW!

Damn Kaiser Nooooo!

(still, not enough to forgive the writers for the previous episode)