Re:Zero - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[orion]

Originally Posted by frubam

Emilia? Emilia who ?

It's almost kinda surprising that out of all the major characters with at least one major role in an arc in this series, Emilia is one of the least-developed ones outside maybe Roswaal. It makes it harder and harder to see why Subaru is exactly infatuated with her, especially since it feels like he clicks better with just about every other female he generally associates with in the cast. It certainly doesn't help that said women see value(at some point or another; the last couple of loops were the opposite) in Subaru, while it kinda feels like Emilia sees him as a bit of a distraction/nuisance.

I think Satella did something to him, like put a spell on him to become infatuated with Emilia. Subaru has gone thru more than any normal male would imo. It's not normal behaviour that we are seeing.

[Triple_R]

Certain bits of this episode, particularly when it comes to the dialogue, were maybe a little overdone. Still, on the whole, a fantastic conclusion to the White Whale fight.

I also think that after everything we've watched Subaru suffer through, it was important for Subaru to now be shown in unblemished heroism. Not so much for his sake, but for that of us viewers. Basically, the darkness and suffering that Subaru has endured calls for an equally great triumphant light as a payoff, and this episode delivered that. It certainly helped that there was a lot of literal light here, providing a fitting glorious frame for this legendary victory.

Subaru's total dedication to Emilia in spite of everything he's gone through, in spite of all the amazing personal connections to other people that he's made, does seem somewhat questionable. But Re:Zero is so very strong in other areas that I'm inclined to put this aside, at least for now.

It helps that Subaru gave Rem a very nice moment in this episode, and that he had the great courtesy of doing so without mentioning Emilia's name to Rem. I'm glad Subaru had the good sense and grace to let Rem have her big emotional moment here, regardless of the wider situation.

Another great job by the animators and the music people.

Right now, Re:Zero is a strong favorite to be my pick for 2016 Anime of the Year. Re:Zero would have to completely implode, and/or Macross Delta/Love Live Sunshine would have to be absolutely masterful the rest of the way, in order for Re:Zero to lose top status anytime soon. I also don't see anything in the Fall 2016 listings that I think is likely to hit Re:Zero's heights.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Zangor17

Another nice episode. I really liked the backstory of Wilhelm weaved into the whole of the White Whale fight and the animation was so fun to watch.

Also is the anime going to be able to cover the last parts of arc 3? if information is right there's a nice little chunk left and only 4 episodes left so it feels like they might not be able to wrap it up at the end of this 3rd arc.

Yes, it would be pointless if they didn't. Pacing is probably gonna be fairly tight though since that "chunk" is a lot.

Originally Posted by orion

I think Satella did something to him, like put a spell on him to become infatuated with Emilia. Subaru has gone thru more than any normal male would imo. It's not normal behaviour that we are seeing.

Yeah, just like how Rem is going so far one guy more then anyone normally would right?

Maybe she's actaully being mind controlled too since love couldn't posdibly be the reason for such strong attachment apparently. Really I dislike the duoble standards being tossed around here.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Yeah, just like how Rem is going so far one guy more then anyone normally would right?

Maybe she's actaully being mind controlled too since love couldn't posdibly be the reason for such strong attachment apparently. Really I dislike the duoble standards being tossed around here.

Despite how much I dislike the Emilia hate, I would have to say Subaru did more, mentally and emotionally, for Rem than Emilia did for Subaru, but we also have to take into consideration that in Subaru's eyes, what Emilia did for him could be just as great.

[Triple_R]

@Applehell - You know the whole "love is illogical" bit? Ok, fine. Not particularly satisfying to me, but there's some truth to it, so whatever.

Right now, I actually find Subaru's insistence on Emilia being ruler more questionable than Subaru putting Emilia over Rem in the romance department. Because while love may be illogical, don't you think logic should factor in to who you want to see be a leader?

Crusch just proved her worth as leader in flying colors in this episode. What has Emilia done to compete with that when it comes to being a leader? I certainly don't expect Subaru to quickly change horses in the Royal Candidates competition, but it's a little strange that all of this doesn't even seem to be giving him serious pause or second thoughts. You can love someone without thinking they'd be the best person to lead a country.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

Despite how much I dislike the Emilia hate, I would have to say Subaru did more, mentally and emotionally, for Rem than Emilia did for Subaru, but we also have to take into consideration that in Subaru's eyes, what Emilia did for him could be just as great.

No that's fair, but recency bias that's been creeping around is annoying. Maybe if Rem had been the one to save him inivte to manison to live and supported throughout that time, not suspected, murdered, tortured and generally forced him jump through hoops continuously just to survive I'd totally down with ship whole heartedly from the very begining. I think Rem willing to give her life for Subaru is great, but if that's critera he should love her than Subaru deserves Emilia just as much since he's already been doing that. You don't do these kind of things if you ain't serious. Basically this isn't a set of relationships that is so black and white and Rem's actions post episode 13 doesn't null Subaru's relationships in the first half series. Essentially it can go eitherway and love should not be put on scale anyway.

Eitherrway that's i'm going to say since I don't want this thread devoling into another Waifu slingfest.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

@Applehell - You know the whole "love is illogical" bit? Ok, fine. Not particularly satisfying to me, but there's some truth to it, so whatever.

Right now, I actually find Subaru's insistence on Emilia being ruler more questionable than Subaru putting Emilia over Rem in the romance department. Because while love may be illogical, don't you think logic should factor in to who you want to see be a leader?

Crusch just proved her worth as leader in flying colors in this episode. What has Emilia done to compete with that when it comes to being a leader? I certainly don't expect Subaru to quickly change horses in the Royal Candidates competition, but it's a little strange that all of this doesn't even seem to be giving him serious pause or second thoughts. You can love someone without thinking they'd be the best person to lead a country.

Not really. Crusch proved her worth as an apt military commander, but they don't necessarily make a good domestic leaders. Don't get me wrong she's awesome, but hunting down legendary monsters isn't the same as handing governance. As Subaru realized, this was parially done as a PR boost anyway. Besides the Dragon chose these 5 as worthly candidates for reason, so I doubt the Royal Election will be done in a landslide. There a lot of things that can happen from then on and everyone still largely unproven. It's easy to declaration someone is best ruler over another when haven't what that other person can do.

[Child_of_Sierra]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Crusch just proved her worth as leader in flying colors in this episode. What has Emilia done to compete with that when it comes to being a leader? I certainly don't expect Subaru to quickly change horses in the Royal Candidates competition, but it's a little strange that all of this doesn't even seem to be giving him serious pause or second thoughts. You can love someone without thinking they'd be the best person to lead a country.

He also saw that Crusch was calculating and willing to ignore pleas for help if there was no immediate benefit for her during his previous life.

Contrast this to Emilia who was consistent in helping complete strangers during the 1st arc.

Subaru himself identifies with the 'weak' in society so having a leader who would always be there for them would appeal to him.

[Arkard]

Everyone keeps mentioning the Rem/Subaru scene this ep. was changed from the source material. What changed exactly?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Applehell

It's easy to declaration someone is best ruler over another when haven't what that other person can do.

This argument actually hurts Subaru's position, not helps it. He's deciding to favor Emilia without seriously considering what the other Royal Candidates can do. And in Crusch's case, he doesn't even need to consider it, per se, as it's right in front of his face.

Originally Posted by Child_of_Sierra

He also saw that Crusch was calculating and willing to ignore pleas for help if there was no immediate benefit for her during his previous life.

Emilia has decided against Subaru's pleas before, choosing to not trust him. You could easily view Emilia as "calculating" in her decisions here.

Contrast this to Emilia who was consistent in helping complete strangers during the 1st arc.

Helping Subaru, finding that one missing girl, anything else? I might be forgetting something, but that's all I remember off the top of my head. While Emilia made a good first impression, I think some Emilia fans overstate it a bit.

[Wandering Soul]

There goes one national landmark.

The Wilhelm/Theresia and Subaru/Rem scenes were well done.

[Kakurin]

I don't think Subaru's given much thought about this ruler issue. To me he wants to make Emilia the ruler because it's her desire to become it. Simply about fulfilling the wish of the person he likes. I also think that another part playing a role is her being ridiculed and reviled for being a half-elf, so he wants to elevate her just to show these guys up.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This argument actually hurts Subaru's position, not helps it. He's deciding to favor Emilia without seriously considering what the other Royal Candidates can do. And in Crusch's case, he doesn't even need to consider it, per se, as it's right in front of his face.

I'm talking about this in terms of screentime. But going from that angle don't ability an huge issue, since everyone group would have some by default. As I said, the Dragon is one who deemed having yhe potenial to govern. Ideals are however just as important and it's something where Subaru identitfies much more with Emilia than Crusch because of how she has treated him and benefited others. This was cut from the anime, but if you remember the merchant named Otto yes?

Spoiler for manga comparison:

He's an example of the kind of person who supports Emilia, he's been similarly mistreated for being different and very likely wouldn't be heard out by the others or have their rulership benefit him since their platforms are focused elsewhere.

Crusch hasn't shown that she is the type of person who cares for people like that or looks like someone these groups can identity with. So there is less reason for Subaru who is smiliar to these people to consider supporting her just she because has decent commanding abitlty on the battlefield. That and he's much closer Emilia than Crusch.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Helping Subaru, finding that one missing girl, anything else? I might be forgetting something, but that's all I remember off the top of my head. While Emilia made a good first impression, I think some Emilia fans overstate it a bit.

But that kind of small thing is persicely what Subaru likes about her as most rulers wouldn't do that. It shows she not kind of person to forget about less fortunate because she been one of them.

[Pen3]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Right now, Re:Zero is a strong favorite to be my pick for 2016 Anime of the Year. Re:Zero would have to completely implode, and/or Macross Delta/Love Live Sunshine would have to be absolutely masterful the rest of the way, in order for Re:Zero to lose top status anytime soon. I also don't see anything in the Fall 2016 listings that I think is likely to hit Re:Zero's heights.

So far, more people are saying Mob Psycho 100 is the AotS.

[Joachim]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Great episode!

Shame they altered Subaru x Rem scene, but I think they managed to get similar meaning to LN and WN across even if Subaru's acceptance of Rem's love is more implied here in comparsion. That said Wilhelm and Theresia's scenes were excellent!

i have to disagree with this one, they literally down play the meaning of rem playing dead and getting subaru so desperate that he starts bursting whatever thoughts he has at that moment even saying something that tugs my heartstring a bit when reading it (the one he will die if she die as he cant go on without her). That just not comparable with how the anime portray the scene, here i am hoping that will actually being played at the end of the season, which might get more impact depending on how they will end re:zero

I cant find the paste bin of SPbro translation of the scenes they skipped, but oh boy imagine if they animate that



that aside.. my biggest gripe with this episode is how subaru managed to land on the whale, that kinda kills the suspense of disbelief, the other knights are, well superhuman so seeing them jump around was kinda acceptable, but subaru a mere human landing perfectly on the whale, a giant flying whale, maintaining whatever his balance before jumping out.. well yea.

except that, as usual great episode.

[Drake]

Man this show just keeps delivering, last few eps have been stellar. Really glad Wilhelm made it through and got some closure too, his flashback segments were really great.

[Child_of_Sierra]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Emilia has decided against Subaru's pleas before, choosing to not trust him. You could easily view Emilia as "calculating" in her decisions here.




Helping Subaru, finding that one missing girl, anything else? I might be forgetting something, but that's all I remember off the top of my head. While Emilia made a good first impression, I think some Emilia fans overstate it a bit.

You'd be surprised how many people (at least in my country) would vote for a candidate based on their first impression of them alone... in this regard Subaru blindly supporting Emilia is believable.

There's also a big difference between Emilia not trusting Subaru because he had trouble explaining himself vs Crusch choosing to not send help when Subaru told her people are going to die.

Crusch was right in ignoring Subaru given how much he was raving like a mad man at that time but Subaru knew he was telling the truth so I imagine that the memory he retains of that meeting will taint his opinion of how benevolent she can be.

[Draco Spirit]

Originally Posted by bakato

Sigh. There goes an amazing tourist attraction.

Give it a few months and they'll have multi language signs talking about the 'Battle of the White Whale' *nods nods*

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Joachim

that aside.. my biggest gripe with this episode is how subaru managed to land on the whale, that kinda kills the suspense of disbelief, the other knights are, well superhuman so seeing them jump around was kinda acceptable, but subaru a mere human landing perfectly on the whale, a giant flying whale, maintaining whatever his balance before jumping out.. well yea.

Remember that Subaru didn't accomplish this by himself. He had Rem directly help him get on it. If her accuracy is high enough to catch a falling guy with her chains without hurting him in the process, surely she is also able to calculate a relatively safe angle, force, etc. to shoot up that same guy so he doesn't have to do much more than just jump off at the right time in order to land on it.

[Draco Spirit]

You know, the more development they give Subaru/Rem, the more I think Rem vs Emilia is going to be a plot point. Rem keeps going all out, being a emotional rock and doing the sort of stunts you expect a action hero to do for her love interest.

Now if I was Emilia and heard about what Rem was doing with Subaru, I would be feeling a bit on the insecure side... so maybe Emilia going to become a jealous witch?

[Joachim]

Originally Posted by Seihai

Remember that Subaru didn't accomplish this by himself. He had Rem directly help him get on it. If her accuracy is high enough to catch a falling guy with her chains without hurting him in the process, surely she is also able to calculate a relatively safe angle, force, etc. to shoot up that same guy so he doesn't have to do much more than just jump off at the right time in order to land on it.

yup, i do understand that rem helped subaru get up there with that big ice, but really though, that will still require subaru to jump precisely (right on the horn), then maintain standing pose on a flying huge whale wonder if the whale itself has blessing of the wind (no wind force around in its body, similar to ground dragon, the moment you get out of the perimeter of the blessing the wind starts to affect you) which helps subaru in standing up like that?

i should just classify this as rule of cool instead of thinking too much on it