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Old 2020-10-22, 20:50   Link #961
mangamuscle
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Join Date: May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
I am, as a non-american like you, a ''outside observer'' but I don't consider me as a not interested by that election; whoever POTUS is, will make decission than might afffect the whole world, much more than any other country leader. As a canadian I sometime think than we might be the third most concerned by the US election ( third after the US citizen and whichever country's citizens than are and will be bombed by the US) and we have no impact on that mess.
No, you will have to settle for fourth place, Canada is a first world country with solid institutions and economical might, third place would go to us here in Mexico, we have suffered immensely through (our short mutual) history for having a bully as a neighbor and another four years with the orange orangutan (aka the bully in chief) would not be beneficial to us, guaranteed. Mind you, I am not saying that Biden would be our savior or anything similar, but just about any politician would be better than Trump.
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Old 2020-10-22, 21:59   Link #962
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I’d say after this debate that nothing has changed. Neither candidate really gave that game changing performance that would really change any significant number of voters.
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Old 2020-10-22, 23:29   Link #963
The Green One
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Neither candidate tanked while most voters have already made a decision. All the remains is the upcoming day, which ironically enough I have jury duty that week of all things.

I just hope we have a clear cut election that doesn't devolve into a legal fight. Regardless of if it's Trump or Biden disputing it.
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Old 2020-10-22, 23:40   Link #964
Johnny Dy
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Dunno why people so stressed, there's no chance in hell Trump might win again.
And if there is, americans are the bottom people of the Universe, given what everyone knows NOW!
Either truth is gonna be a hoot, to use a famous american word.


It's true that we should kill all politicians and replace the "current system" with "electronic vote by each individual" system, that is totally transparent and totally impossible to fraud because everyone could check all the votes, including his own at any time with his/hers ID in the informatic system. But we're quite some ways far from that goal. It's not easy to kill all the politicians, it's a challenge at the very least. Because they will never want to change the system for the people, quitting power by themselves and quit being leaches on the back of everyone doing mostly nothing, being useless. They need a lot of persuasion. I can't see any other working besides the capital persuasion.


Sadly enough, moral conscience has developed beyond our need to free ourselves from economical enslavement, if we're deluded and misguided by the freedoms of speech and travel. And the moral conscience not to kill, people don't kill as easy now as they did a century ago; which in many ways is good, but in a global sense is very bad, because we need to get read of the leaches system so we can all enjoy better lives, except the rich and powerful of today - because in an electronic vote system, mostly nobody from the vast majority of common people won't vote for them to earn even more than they already do, if anything, much less, as it should be.


To me, one of the 1st laws that will be ensued would be the price of meds/drugs to never exceed 50% of it's production costs internally and 100% of it's production cost in exports, including manufactory and shipping/transport. That's just one example from a panel of 4-5 laws that I think would be voted by the majority, and if they would pass with 50% plus 1 of the voters in a powerful country as China or America, could potentially change the entire world.


But 1st we must kill all the politicians and update the constitution to current technology, and that's a challenge. I can't see any other way. If there is a way, that's for people who care about politics more than me, I don't give a fuck about this corrupt mother fuckers either which way to invest more than a post or two on a random forum every year. As long as they exist, we exist less, as they sip life form every and each one of us who's not either a politician or an economical tycoon owner.


Note: that will never happen. Most likely what will change politics, with other words the world is an alternative power source revolution. We might be close to finding one that's extremely cheap, so economy in itself will be made irrelevant by it's employ. That's the only thing that will change constitutions and kill off politicians, even if just in the allegorical sense of the word, thus idiots like Trump will be made irrelevant both politically and economically - the only 2 things that he excelled at in life and earned him a wife to fuck and respectively children to make, because in all the other aspects of what entails to be a human being he's a total retard. But he is president because of a constitution that's grossly outdated and a people that like to vote against itself. Will not be repeated this year though, it's too obvious by now, I am 99,99% certain of it. This is just another "outsiders" view.
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Last edited by Johnny Dy; 2020-10-23 at 00:23.
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Old 2020-10-23, 00:28   Link #965
The Green One
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Sorry but when someone says "kill all politicians" even if it's intended as a metaphor rather than literal, that's my cue to back away slowly and run.
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Old 2020-10-23, 01:34   Link #966
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
Sorry but when someone says "kill all politicians" even if it's intended as a metaphor rather than literal, that's my cue to back away slowly and run.
That needed to be said, thank you.
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Old 2020-10-23, 03:14   Link #967
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
Sorry but when someone says "kill all politicians" even if it's intended as a metaphor rather than literal, that's my cue to back away slowly and run.
I would say than it was far from being the smartest thing to post on the internet,. Even as a metaphor, it is too easy to misinterpret.
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Old 2020-10-23, 03:45   Link #968
Magin
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Certainly, wishing death on someone on the Internet of all places is a terrible idea. And then we have all the "brilliant" people who think we need an American version of the French Revolution with guillotines and heads flying. But I can't be bothered to point out that history books have cleaned up what was really a very messy affair.

That said, something does occur to me more frequently now- instead of killing people, we instead say to use the justice system. But in the US especially, how reliable is the justice system anymore? So when your options for punishment/consequences are either death or going through an easily-manipulated justice system (NOTE: easily manipulated for wealthy individuals, that is)... well, how do you enforce the law? This is a topic that deserves its own thread and I can see getting messy very fast, but it is something that I think about more these days, considering what Trump has done and where he still is.
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Old 2020-10-23, 03:50   Link #969
Johnny Dy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
Sorry but when someone says "kill all politicians" even if it's intended as a metaphor rather than literal, that's my cue to back away slowly and run.
Exactly my point. We aren't killers as we're used to be, even when it's needed.
And it wasn't a metaphor, just at the end, the rest was ad litteram.
The problem is we can't do it because of the vague reasons of my previous post like overall growth of human conscience in the last century (and others more concrete that I won't stat enumerating just yet), although in my opinion it would make the world a better place today. If they would make a COVID that would only targets politicians, sign me up!

There's no need to run, except from the killing politicians part. The rest ca be debatable still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magin View Post
Certainly, wishing death on someone on the Internet of all places is a terrible idea. And then we have all the "brilliant" people who think we need an American version of the French Revolution with guillotines and heads flying. But I can't be bothered to point out that history books have cleaned up what was really a very messy affair.
Agreed. I'm not actually talking about killing them politicians, I more like wish they'd be inexistent so we can install a better system. Which is an impossible wish. Juggling with the idea that if they'd be removed from the picture, we could manage a far better governing system with administrators instead of politicians.

I exaggerated with the killing part, more like that video "what would happen if all human kind would be dead" and they show you a prediction for the future of how this planet might look like, develop in time. My point is "what whould happen if all of the politicians would be dead" kind of exercise. I think we would be far better off.

The French Revolution was a terrible affair. They killed the king, than his wife, then the revolution leaders killing each other one after another, accusing each other of infidelity to the cause or worse. But at the end they did manage to input a superior system to absolutism. This particular democracy based on corrupted people that make the laws for us is outdated just like that one was outdated then. The true purpose of politicians is to go represent us at the center because we can't all move at once to make our views heard. Today we don't need to go to the center, nor do we need anyone to speak for us because we have the internet, so the very purpose/existence of politicians is outdated, they are nothing else than devices through which our views get perverted, distorted, delayed or forgotten altogether. And we even pay them money do do so, not just for salaries, but for elections, for campaigns, for all kinds of stupid stuff instead of investing that money into what we need fixed or improved. This class is outdated and is nothing else than a leech on our futures. Just my opinion, I might be wrong. No problems.

The opposite argument is the politicians patting their own backs saying: "the people are stupid, they don't know what they want. If they would to vote for everything, they would destroy the welfare of the country altogether". But, as much as I'm concerned, there's a rison why Joker is my favorite movie and The Dark Knight a close second, rather than having unfair order with the majority being exploited day in, day out, I would have a voted chaos by the majority if that's fair to all. And that's just a grim prediction, I think we wouldn't be headed towards a chaos with a system in which everyone can vote for everything, but more towards an adjusting time for it to properly work, like any new installed system.


PS: Why the f do I even bother with politics!? I know it can't be changed, the system can not be changed unless a revolution starts. And the only one I can see happening is the new energy development one, some stellar supercheap energy source found. As long as that doesn't happen, we're still gonna live in a corrupt world, and the Joker world will just come closer and closer to reality, as the rich will keep getting richer and the corrupt more corrupt, and the slaves will keep slaving for both, too morally enhanced as well as afraid to endanger their welfare, unwilling to risk everything for a better future, to do anything about it. I know, I am one of them. But being afraid to act, doesn't stop me to call them as I see them, I'm not afraid to speak just yet. What I regret is just the waste of time I take to talk, as nothing can be done anyway.

PS*: I wonder though if we'd have a democracy basted on individual vote for everything, if terrorism (which is nothing else but perversely argumented hate) would still be the issue it is today? My guess is NOT. Notwithstanding the politicians that provoke those terrorists would not exist either. And to the question "Do you want to invade Venezuela because it has resources we want for yourselves? Fk them venezuelans!" probably the people wouldn't give the same voting response as those generals or politicians that I wouldn't trust blowing air into my tires did.
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Crime and punishment, an age old dilemma. Man has long sought a solution to societies ills. But at what point does the punishment itself... become a crime?

Sometimes it is an easy thing for a man to cry out for retribution, until he himself has walked in the foot steppes of those suffering the penalty.

Last edited by Johnny Dy; 2020-10-23 at 05:03.
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Old 2020-10-23, 07:59   Link #970
The Green One
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Just saying the way you worded it originally had me legitimately have a WTF moment.
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Old 2020-10-23, 10:38   Link #971
mangamuscle
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*ahem* Well, now that the last chance trump had to somehow reverse the course of this election has ended, I need to ask to my neighbors in the north, have you stockpiled on food and other necessities? No, I am not talking about the covid19 pandemic, I am talking about the harsh times ahead. Trump will lose the election. Trump will not accept the results. Trump (whether he is inside the white house or not) will tell his minions to go out and "make justice","prevent the corrupt politicians of washington to take the election from its rightful winners","yadda yadda" which, in the country with the highest amount of firearms per capita in civilians hands (and not in an orderly manner like in Switzerland) will mean only one thing. Remember the USSR was created by the bolsheviks, which were a minority, but a violent minority. IMO the birth of the USSA is a possibility.
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Old 2020-10-23, 11:00   Link #972
ramlaen
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The biggest takeaway from the debate has to be the number of people on social media who do not know what a coyote is.
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Old 2020-10-23, 11:04   Link #973
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Dy View Post
It's true that we should kill all politicians and replace the "current system" with "electronic vote by each individual" system, that is totally transparent and totally impossible to fraud because everyone could check all the votes, including his own at any time with his/hers ID in the informatic system.
Gatchaman Crowds Insight shows why this is a really bad idea.
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Old 2020-10-23, 11:28   Link #974
MeoTwister5
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Crowds Insight is one of the most surprisingly politically relevant shows I have ever watched. Whenever I hear or read about people talk about surrendering privacy for transparency and uniformity, I end up thinking about shows like this.

It's actually quite ironic because it essentially predicted cancel culture and social media's tool as a vilification device.
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Old 2020-10-23, 12:02   Link #975
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Dy View Post
Dunno why people so stressed, there's no chance in hell Trump might win again.
And if there is, americans are the bottom people of the Universe, given what everyone knows NOW!
Either truth is gonna be a hoot, to use a famous american word.


It's true that we should kill all politicians and replace the "current system" with "electronic vote by each individual" system, that is totally transparent and totally impossible to fraud because everyone could check all the votes, including his own at any time with his/hers ID in the informatic system.
Putting aside the mass murder thing, "electronic" and "transparent" are antithetical. Why? Because nobody can look at a voting machine and tell if the software's been tempered with. Or is simply incorrect.

There are also serious with non-secret ballots.
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Old 2020-10-24, 04:09   Link #976
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magin View Post
That said, something does occur to me more frequently now- instead of killing people, we instead say to use the justice system. But in the US especially, how reliable is the justice system anymore? So when your options for punishment/consequences are either death or going through an easily-manipulated justice system (NOTE: easily manipulated for wealthy individuals, that is)... well, how do you enforce the law? This is a topic that deserves its own thread and I can see getting messy very fast, but it is something that I think about more these days, considering what Trump has done and where he still is.
The issue with the US justice system might not be thant it's ''easily-manipulated'' by those with money but than it may be build more as a mean to maintain the status-quo, a way to protect the higher individual. Hoping to use the justice system to remouve the very one individuals than made it (or at the very least wrote loophold in it) seem like a almost-impossible task.

There's still the possibility to vote them out of office, not impossible but given the influence of money and the media (not to talk about the de-facto two-party system) over the election, atemptint to primary them might probe to be somewhat easier.
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Old 2020-10-24, 06:23   Link #977
Key Board
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Crowds Insight is one of the most surprisingly politically relevant shows I have ever watched. Whenever I hear or read about people talk about surrendering privacy for transparency and uniformity, I end up thinking about shows like this.

It's actually quite ironic because it essentially predicted cancel culture and social media's tool as a vilification device.
Crowds taught me that society just waits for a hero or a stronk dear leader to solve all their problems.
This feels especially true in a celebrity culture like the US.
YOu really have to go out of your way to make people take direct action.

I wish Crowds were wrong about that.

//
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Last edited by Key Board; 2020-10-24 at 06:39.
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Old 2020-10-26, 02:18   Link #978
Johnny Dy
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Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
Just saying the way you worded it originally had me legitimately have a WTF moment.
Yeh, I apologize for that. It was a bit unrefined. A bit more. I do enjoy the freedom of free expression on this forum, on another that would have earned me at least a week long ban. I don't want to abuse it though, it's not my intention, not one bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Gatchaman Crowds Insight shows why this is a really bad idea.
So they lean towards this sort of judgement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Dy View Post
The opposite argument is the politicians patting their own backs saying: "the people are stupid, they don't know what they want. If they would to vote for everything, they would destroy the welfare of the country altogether".
I already gave my reply to it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Dy View Post
As much as I'm concerned, there's a reason why Joker is my favorite movie and The Dark Knight a close second, rather than having unfair order with the majority being exploited day in, day out, I would have a voted chaos by the majority if that's fair to all. And that's just a grim prediction, I think we wouldn't be headed towards a chaos with a system in which everyone can vote for everything, but more towards an adjusting time for it to properly work, like any new installed system.
What's the reasoning behind their assessment? Do you agree with it, Seiji? Do you have more arguments to support their claim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Crowds Insight is one of the most surprisingly politically relevant shows I have ever watched. Whenever I hear or read about people talk about surrendering privacy for transparency and uniformity, I end up thinking about shows like this.

It's actually quite ironic because it essentially predicted cancel culture and social media's tool as a vilification device.
I don't think you notice the difference between voting a law electronically and your phone/PC device being hyjecked by the government. But you see... there is no government, because the people would be voting for that too. It's true that CIA and offices like that will still exist, but their power will be much more limited in my opinion, than it is now with the current government structure of corrupts and bought out people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Putting aside the mass murder thing, "electronic" and "transparent" are antithetical. Why? Because nobody can look at a voting machine and tell if the software's been tempered with. Or is simply incorrect.

There are also serious with non-secret ballots.
No, my man. You didn't notice what I was aiming for. I was aiming for the perpetual check of your own vote. As you have an unique ID, even if that's hacked, even if the votes are hacked, you must be allowed permission at all time to verify your past votes, exactly if there's some tamper with it, you'd know and alert the media and the police. What you might imply is that a certain vote to appear "yes" on your screen, in your ID log in, and "no" on the official server that's inaccessible to you. Well, we would have to simply vote a law to randomly hire people (or a firm) that are filmed for the duration of their work so we can see everything their doing, they'd have to inspect all the ID's in congruence with the servers so there's no difference between votes and the sum of the votes, as well as an overall IT check of the systems to see if they've been tempered with. On camera, I don't think anyone would risk to not do a fair job in these matters. And it's just a hired job, filming them for a week or so, how long it would take them to go through the servers from A to Z on matters concerning the period between the last check and the current one. I think it can be done. But it would be a bother, just like installing a new system in place of an old one.
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Crime and punishment, an age old dilemma. Man has long sought a solution to societies ills. But at what point does the punishment itself... become a crime?

Sometimes it is an easy thing for a man to cry out for retribution, until he himself has walked in the foot steppes of those suffering the penalty.
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Old 2020-10-26, 03:19   Link #979
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Dy View Post
No, my man. You didn't notice what I was aiming for. I was aiming for the perpetual check of your own vote. As you have an unique ID, even if that's hacked, even if the votes are hacked, you must be allowed permission at all time to verify your past votes, exactly if there's some tamper with it, you'd know and alert the media and the police. What you might imply is that a certain vote to appear "yes" on your screen, in your ID log in, and "no" on the official server that's inaccessible to you. Well, we would have to simply vote a law to randomly hire people (or a firm) that are filmed for the duration of their work so we can see everything their doing, they'd have to inspect all the ID's in congruence with the servers so there's no difference between votes and the sum of the votes, as well as an overall IT check of the systems to see if they've been tempered with. On camera, I don't think anyone would risk to not do a fair job in these matters. And it's just a hired job, filming them for a week or so, how long it would take them to go through the servers from A to Z on matters concerning the period between the last check and the current one. I think it can be done. But it would be a bother, just like installing a new system in place of an old one.
- That still leaves the issue of non secret votes.
- It doesn't really matter what security procedure you fondly imagine will protect elections from being hacked. It won't work. And what you've described? It especially won't work. One problem that jumps out is what is the source of truth that your hypothetical auditors are supposed to check against? Another is that the cameras might as well not be there. It's not like they're going to pull electronic votes out of their RL socks to stuff the electronic ballot boxes. Cameras will show very little either way and will at best serve to feed conspirationists (Oh, he sneezed! That's proof he stole the election!). Yet another is that it's naive to think nobody will try anything when billion-dollars contracts ride on it. People will try shit for a lot less.
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Old 2020-10-26, 03:39   Link #980
Johnny Dy
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I don't disagree with you for the most part, I just agree with me more. ^^'
Might be naive, but I think the possibility of people checking in their votes after the elections for an indefinite number of years, could be a big help against fraud. And not just their votes, I think all votes should be under read only files for everyone to check. So they can see their own vote as well as the others to sum up exactly the result of that respective election. And if that doesn't add up, something's fishy with Samantha.
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Crime and punishment, an age old dilemma. Man has long sought a solution to societies ills. But at what point does the punishment itself... become a crime?

Sometimes it is an easy thing for a man to cry out for retribution, until he himself has walked in the foot steppes of those suffering the penalty.
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