[Manga] Naruto Chapter 614 Discussion Thread

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

That's one example of Kishimoto going to the extremes with a character so much that's it's quite unrealistic. I mean one cannot be dumb and smart at the same time as much as Naruto. It can be true to a lesser extent, there are people who are not great thinkers in general but in extreme situations with very limited time to think they can be surprisingly smart. They are quick thinkers and they are the rare who can do better under high level of stress. So we know what was Kishimoto's general idea with Naruto, and that idea worked well when used by other authors, but Kishimoto just amplifies these traits of Naruto so much that sometimes it feels like more like a caricature of himself. It's hard to believe that someone who at one moment is checking for animal penises the next moment is the great savior For example when Naruto finds out in a matter of minutes how the 3rd raikage got his scar, while thousands of elite ninja who knew all circumstances couldn't find it out for decades, that's much more unrealistic here than lets say Naruto coming up with his winning strategy against Kakuzu because that requires analytical thinking instead of having a great idea. I mean there are guys that are similar: Goku and Luffy, but in case of Naruto sometimes it feels that the author went too far. Also because ninja battles are also intellectual battles, these are not so simple as in case of DBZ or One Piece, so having a dumb guy suddenly outsmarting is less realistic than in simple battles that happen in other manga. But i don't want to complain about that one thing, since this is true in many other cases in this manga, it's just how it is, and in the end of the day i don't care if the overall story is entertaining. Also in the current battle we see how there are smart people who help Naruto out (Kakashi, Shikaku, Itachi, ...) and as usual he is quite lucky, so i have nothing to complain about this battle.

The inconsistency of his mental performances is similar to that of his speed. When the raikage comes at him with intent to kill he can dodge that, when not even Sasuke's sharingan could follow the movements of the raikage in that state. But in the next battle he cannot dodge Tobi's attacks and he can't hit Tobi, while it was never said that Tobi had any kind of super-speed. If Naruto used that speed against Tobi then Tobi could not even see him coming, and same goes for anyone else other than the raikage.

First of all, that's a much better rebuttal than "lol all he does is kage bunshin herp a derp".

I haven't actually thought much about the 'inconsistencies'. I would like to point out that it's not unheard off to be awesome at one thing and terribad at another. He lacks a lot of common sense in common situations, but he's good at improvising under pressure. Maybe you don't agree, but it's not THAT unusual.

I have no retort for the fact that Kishi is very whimsical as to how effective Naruto's super speed is.

[TimeMask]

I don't see Obito sacrificing himself to revive Madara unless he wants to die. Maybe Obito wanted Sasuke to take Madara's place to do the moon eye plan unless Obito is planning to die.

If this is true then Obito may have planned to control Sasuke with Shisui's eye to do the moon eye plan.

[Dengar]

... But Obito doesn't -have- Shisui's eye. Not that he'd know Shisui very well in the first place. They are an entire generation apart from eachother.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by TimeMask

I don't see Obito sacrificing himself to revive Madara unless he wants to die. Maybe Obito wanted Sasuke to take Madara's place to do the moon eye plan unless Obito is planning to die.

I kind of wondered why did Obito wanted Sasuke to become his ally. However, doesn't the user of that revival Jutsu need Hashirama's cells?

[Dengar]

Nagato didn't.

[ranchan13]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Nagato didn't.

I think that can be explained by Uzumaki cells trumping Hashirama's

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Dengar

First of all, that's a much better rebuttal than "lol all he does is kage bunshin herp a derp".

Heh. A rebutal of what exactly?
You claimed that Naruto is a genius only second to the 200 IQ guys because he attacks his opponent(s) continually with slightly different versions of his basic moves each times it fails. It's just absurd.

What Ero-Senn1n said isn't even a rebuttal of that, he simply acknowledge that the author goes too far in showing Naruto's stupidity compared to the times when he shows Naruto being, well maybe not smart but at least cunning, and that we should overlook all those instances because of this.
And I disagree, we shouldn't overlook them because being completely moronic is an essential part of his character, it's not an accident, he's meant to be this way. Although as I said I do agree that it goes often too far because he's supposed to be stupid and not brain-damaged (I mean it's sad when Naruto manages somehow to looks more deluded than Obito when they talk to each other) he is however not the smartest person in the room when Shikamaru isn't there. Not by a long shot.
I'd also argue that all those instances of stupidity aren't counterbalanced by as many instances of real cunning. The smartest tactic Naruto ever did was against Zabuza, the 2nd against Neji and there is no 3rd. From then on Naruto used slight variations of what he did in these two fights. Hell I'm being unfair, what he did against Kiba was also pretty sweet even though it required Kiba to be a complete dumbass.

Naruto is without a doubt one of the most efficient and deadly fighter in history but it sure as hell is not because he's super smart. He does one thing right and that is Kage Bunshin (yes I know herp a derp), it's the absolute backbone of everything he does. Can't do Rasengan? Kage Bunshin. Can't train fast enough? Kage Bunshin. Can't learn Nature Manipulation? Kage Bunshin. Can't use Sage-mode? Kage Bunshin... It's his answer to any and everything, this jutsu is the single most effective technique in the manga.

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I mean it's sad when Naruto manages somehow to looks more deluded than Obito when they talk to each other.

Thanks, Hunter, I hadn't laughed all day

Been saying this about kage bunshin for a while. It's really insanely overpowered. Naruto could've figured out Obito's ability in a second if he had tricked the later into teleporting one of his clones to the other dimension. He has an army of expendable "Narutos" at his disposal, which becomes a virtually infinite army with the Kyuubi's help.

Exploding tags are also overpowered. Everyone seems to have an almost unlimited supply of these little papers, which are highly destructive and require practically no effort, yet never quite seem to get the job done because of purely plot reasons. He wouldn't even need to waste chakra on rasengan most of the time.

Replace Kakashi in Tobi's dimension with one of Naruto's clones. Now, instead of punches, he sticks a bunch of exploding tags to Obito's face. No more Obito.

Two of the most overpowered techniques that were introduced from the start of the series, almost anyone can use them, and are repeatedly dumbed down so they don't trump the "real" hax techniques.


btw I've been hitting up the scan sites every 5 mins like an addict :/

[Mad Pierrot]

Oh wait, to perform the revival Jutsu the user needs the Rinnegan. Konan referred to Nagato as the Sixth Path of Pain when Nagato used that Jutsu. Then that could mean Obito wants to develop the Rinnegan as Madara did. However, the requirements to naturally awake them have yet to be confirmed by Madara.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I haven't actually thought much about the 'inconsistencies'.

Naruto is the Goku kind of main hero, not smart at all. But in case of Goku and Luffy the difference of the displayed intelligence level between their best and worst moments is not as huge as in case of Naruto. Just compare Naruto when he as an already established "savior" is checking animal penises on a remote island and when in a few minutes he comes up with a great plan to beat the 3rd raikage. And the latter is not an example of just improvising a move but it involves analytical thinking. What i mean that we could say that there are two different kinds of thinking, and at one Naruto is really not good but at the other he's a "genius". But in the examples i compared it's the same kind of thinking and in the first case Naruto is a complete idiot and in the second he's a genius thinker considering how he could come up with this plan in a few minutes under serious pressure. Naruto can't be both an idiot and a smart guy in the same kind of thinking process (which is the kind of thinking where Shikamaru and his father are the best of all), so this simply doesn't make sense.
There are great sportsmen who are considered geniuses because they can come up with a genius solution in a second, take for example great soccer players like Messi from Barcelona. But they sometimes are not really smart people (a few times we can say they are really dumb), take for example the legendary Maradona. In case of Naruto the author went so much to the extremes that we must call that an incosistency.

Originally Posted by Dengar

I would like to point out that it's not unheard off to be awesome at one thing and terribad at another.

Unless it's based on the same thing, one's brain and thinking. It's true that human thinking cannot be simplified to one number, but as i explained above i think in case of Naruto the author sometimes went too far. And i understand what you meant, for example the difference between IQ and EQ which represent different kinds of human intelligence, or for example the extreme cases of autism where the person is quite stupid overall but for example he can count like a computer. Sure the main differnce between Naruto and Sasuke is that one has high EQ and the other high IQ.

Originally Posted by Dengar

He lacks a lot of common sense in common situations, but he's good at improvising under pressure. Maybe you don't agree, but it's not THAT unusual.

People who can do their best under extreme stress conditions are very rare in my opinion. I know that if i'm too stressed i do considerably worse than my best performance. We see how Jiraiya believes that Naruto can do better under stress when he pushes Naruto into an abyss to make him summon Gamabunta.

Originally Posted by Hunter

he is however not the smartest person in the room when Shikamaru isn't there.

You analyze his intellectual ability in an absolute way, but i prefer to do it relative to the other characters of the Naruto world. I mean the Naruto characters are overall quite stupid. You have examples of Naruto acting in a very stupid way, but what about the others, they aren't that smart either. I remember how you described Tobi's performance against the 4th hokage So if we say that for example an IQ value in the Naruto world is much less value in our world, then for example Shikamaru would have a 120 IQ which is still better than an average person, but then most of the characters are simply morons. Compared to these morons Naruto is not that bad

Originally Posted by amaterasu4

I kind of wondered why did Obito wanted Sasuke to become his ally. However, doesn't the user of that revival Jutsu need Hashirama's cells?

Madara had to steal the cells of the 1st and even then he managed to awaken it only in the very end. My guess is that if Kishimoto wants Sasuke to have rinnegan then he will reveal that Tobito and Itachi's father had implanted the DNA of the 1st into Sasuke's mother when she became pregnant with Sasuke. And if that's true it would explain why the mother said to Sasuke that for the father Sasuke is more important than his genius brother.

[james0246]

Spoilers have been released. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

You analyze his intellectual ability in an absolute way, but i prefer to do it relative to the other characters of the Naruto world. I mean the Naruto characters are overall quite stupid. You have examples of Naruto acting in a very stupid way, but what about the others, they aren't that smart either. I remember how you described Tobi's performance against the 4th hokage So if we say that for example an IQ value in the Naruto world is much less value in our world, then for example Shikamaru would have a 120 IQ which is still better than an average person, but then most of the characters are simply morons. Compared to these morons Naruto is not that bad

No I don't, Naruto's brain look for the worse in comparison to pretty much all the other characters of the show. So yeah I mocked Obito who seem to be brain-damaged to me but as I said Naruto manages to sound worse than a clinically delusional sociopath.
The only one among his generation I could see being dumber than Naruto is Kiba and that's from the way he's characterized, not actual instances of stupidity.
Naruto is dumb, the author goes out of his way to show that over and over again. Every character who addressed this subject (including Naruto himself) said as much. All his teachers were dumfounded by his sheer stupidity. Kakashi had a renewed respect for Jiraiya's teaching ability after 2 minutes trying to explain basic stuffs to Naruto and Fukasaku was just as bewildered.

Naruto is the kind of guy who catch things quick when he does them but try to explain anything to him, even the simplest of concept, and he's completely lost.

[rmbalelo]

Originally Posted by Hunter

No I don't, Naruto's brain look for the worse in comparison to pretty much all the other characters of the show. So yeah I mocked Obito who seem to be brain-damaged to me but as I said Naruto manages to sound worse than a clinically delusional sociopath.
The only one among his generation I could see being dumber than Naruto is Kiba and that's from the way he's characterized, not actual instances of stupidity.
Naruto is dumb, the author goes out of his way to show that over and over again. Every character who addressed this subject (including Naruto himself) said as much. All his teachers were dumfounded by his sheer stupidity. Kakashi had a renewed respect for Jiraiya's teaching ability after 2 minutes trying to explain basic stuffs to Naruto and Fukasaku was just as bewildered.

Naruto is the kind of guy who catch things quick when he does them but try to explain anything to him, even the simplest of concept, and he's completely lost.

yes i'm agree with you

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

No I don't, Naruto's brain look for the worse in comparison to pretty much all the other characters of the show. So yeah I mocked Obito who seem to be brain-damaged to me but as I said Naruto manages to sound worse than a clinically delusional sociopath.
The only one among his generation I could see being dumber than Naruto is Kiba and that's from the way he's characterized, not actual instances of stupidity.
Naruto is dumb, the author goes out of his way to show that over and over again. Every character who addressed this subject (including Naruto himself) said as much. All his teachers were dumfounded by his sheer stupidity. Kakashi had a renewed respect for Jiraiya's teaching ability after 2 minutes trying to explain basic stuffs to Naruto and Fukasaku was just as bewildered.

Naruto is the kind of guy who catch things quick when he does them but try to explain anything to him, even the simplest of concept, and he's completely lost.

While i agree with 99% of what you say, i can't agree in the end because of that 1%. That 1% of the story which as i wrote makes it a huge contradiction. Some examples that come to my mind:
- steals the secret scroll of elite forbidden jutsu and learns the kage bunshin from a book in a few hours (not by practice but from a book)
- reads Jiraiya's book and gets the message
- outsmarts Kakuzu
- despite having only kage bunshin and rasengan he regularly finds new ways to use these and trick his enemies who have at least 10 times more jutsu to use
- finds out immediately that Sakura's confession is fake
- very smart people believe in him (Jiraiya, Minato, Shikamaru and his father, Kakashi, etc.)

In my opinion these 1% contradict the other 99% of events that you described, because as you explained in general he is so dumb that it's simply not believeable to me that he could come up with these things. But when we look it that way then we realize that most of the other characters also do dumb things on a regular basis. Just a few examples that come to my mind now: Jiraiya going to the akatsuki lair alone instead of organizing a squad of konoha or even from the 5 countries, keeping Naruto in Konoha so that the enemy who already almost destroyed the sand ninja village with a huge bomb when coming for Gaara would do the same with Konoha, etc.)

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

While i agree with 99% of what you say, i can't agree in the end because of that 1%. That 1% of the story which as i wrote makes it a huge contradiction. Some examples that come to my mind:
- reads Jiraiya's book and gets the message
- outsmarts Kakuzu
- despite having only kage bunshin and rasengan he regularly finds new ways to use these and trick his enemies who have at least 10 times more jutsu to use
- finds out immediately that Sakura's confession is fake
- very smart people believe in him (Jiraiya, Minato, Shikamaru and his father, Kakashi, etc.)

• So? Are you implying Jiriaya's book was some kind of subtle allegory instead of the main character shouting cheesy lines leaving no room for interpretation? You think Naruto is smart because he has 2nd or 3rd grader reading comprehension?
• There was nothing smart about it (in fact it had the opposite effect of making Kakuzu looks dumb) Naruto did what he always does, he used slight variations of KB + Rasengan until one connected. That's Naruto's bread and butter.
• No he doesn't, not since his fight with Neji. Every combat he fought since then has been a slight variation of KB feint + Swirling Ball of death#875 + sometime the trick he used against Zabuza.
• Duh? I said he's dumb not a vegetable.
• -This has nothing to do with his intelligence and everything to do with plot charisma and in the case of his father blind faith.

- steals the secret scroll of elite forbidden jutsu and learns the kage bunshin from a book in a few hours (not by practice but from a book)

I kept the first for last because it's the only one with value although you're wrong Naruto had trained all night so much he had hurt himself to get the hang of it. But again it's not an indication that he's a brainiac, it's just goes with the territory in the genre. You could have made the same argument for all his training session without exception.

But when we look it that way then we realize that most of the other characters also do dumb things on a regular basis. Just a few examples that come to my mind now: Jiraiya going to the akatsuki lair alone instead of organizing a squad of konoha or even from the 5 countries, keeping Naruto in Konoha so that the enemy who already almost destroyed the sand ninja village with a huge bomb when coming for Gaara would do the same with Konoha, etc.)

Sorry but no, those two examples don't even make the top 100 stupid things in the story and they most certainely don't come to within a light years of most of Naruto feats in the dumbastic department. There are others character who proved themselves dumb at time, sometime not in purpose but none so systematically and comprehensively as Naruto.

That's why I don't get why you refuse to acknowledge Naruto's stupidity. It's not a case of a character being stupid despite the author efforts, it's a clear cut case of an author shouting it in your hears over and over and inventing more stupid things for his character to say all the time so nobody forget that he's dumb as a brick.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

So? Are you implying Jiriaya's book was some kind of subtle allegory instead of the main character shouting cheesy lines leaving no room for interpretation? You think Naruto is smart because he has 2nd or 3rd grader reading comprehension?

Reading and understanding the meaning of a book that his father also liked is not as trivial as you imply. Usually people with very different intelligence levels don't like the same books because intellectually they have different needs, so if a book is too dumbed down a smart guy like Yondaime would not like it, while if it's too abstract Naruto would not understand it. Of course in this case we could say that Jiraiya did a very good job in making a book that both stupid and smart like, so this wasn't really the best example.

Originally Posted by Hunter

There was nothing smart about it (in fact it had the opposite effect of making Kakuzu looks dumb) Naruto did what he always does, he used slight variations of KB + Rasengan until one connected. That's Naruto's bread and butter.

Naruto outsmarted the smarter guy of an akatsuki duo, that's a simple fact. Sure if you look at it the other way then Kakuzu is dumb, but that was my original point too, that if we look at things the opposite way then most of the characters make dumb things regularly.

Originally Posted by Hunter

No he doesn't, not since his fight with Neji. Every combat he fought since then has been a slight variation of KB feint + Swirling Ball of death#875 + sometime the trick he used against Zabuza.

He does, maybe i used the wrong words, what i meant is that he uses different variations of his KB and rasengan (and henge), he always finds a new way make them useful. Of course Kishimoto has to come up with new combinations to make the show interesting despite he didn't give any new jutsu to Naruto. Well i guess you simply do not regard a variation of same jutsu sequence as a new trick, but i count that as different and new. For example using smoke against Pain was just a minor addition to his usual kage bunshin and rasengan attack but i count that as new. Also using the double rasenshuriken where the 1st one is a henge is new.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Duh? I said he's dumb not a vegetable.

Well maybe you find Sakura's confession an obvious fake but in real life when a girl you loved for years finally confesses you would be too happy to actually use your brain and realize that you are not that lucky.

Originally Posted by Hunter

-This has nothing to do with his intelligence and everything to do with plot charisma and in the case of his father blind faith.

Making him look super-dumb has also plot reasons.
His father was in him for 16 years observing him until the battle with Pain, so that faith couldn't be "blind", he already saw how "dumb" Naruto is and still had faith that Naruto will find the "answer".

Originally Posted by Hunter

That's why I don't get why you refuse to acknowledge Naruto's stupidity.

I already acknowledged it a few posts before this, what i added is that it's not consistent, because his smartest and his dumbest actions are so far off.
I can just repeat my earlier post: i find it unbeliveable that someone who's portrayed to be as dumb as you described can come up with the plan to defeat the 3rd raikage in just a few minutes in the middle of intense fighting. And the old guy and all the other ninja from the raikage's village could not come up with the solution for decades, so either everybody in that village is dumb as fuck or Naruto was pretty smart in this case.
Of course i understand that it was the author's decision to make of Naruto such a character, but as i explained earlier in case of Goku and Luffy i felt this more beliveable than in case of Naruto. Kishimoto just went too far in this, but i should not complain now because that's nothing in comparison to what he did with Tobito's character

[itachi-san314]

I dont really have a problem with the apparent intellectual discrepancies with naruto's character. he's dumb for sure, but he's a problem solver and he has the endurance and strength (mostly thanks to the kyuubi) to withstand an opponent's attacks until he can figure out the solution, however long it takes. he responds well to pressure. its like if you gave him the controls to a war-type rpg he would fail endlessly, but put him in an actual war and he would win almost if not every fight he was in

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Reading and understanding the meaning of a book that his father also liked is not as trivial as you imply. Usually people with very different intelligence levels don't like the same books because intellectually they have different needs, so if a book is too dumbed down a smart guy like Yondaime would not like it, while if it's too abstract Naruto would not understand it. Of course in this case we could say that Jiraiya did a very good job in making a book that both stupid and smart like, so this wasn't really the best example.

I don't think you realize how difficult this is not to joke about what you just said when we're arguing in a dedicated Naruto forum. Let's just say that if you really believe that you must have pretty low self-esteem.
But be reassured you shouldn't believe that anyway. You can be a rocket scientist and read fifty shades of grey as a guilty pleasure while listening to Gangnam style without magically losing your cognitive faculty although science is still determining the effect of the combo Bieber/Twilight.

Naruto outsmarted the smarter guy of an akatsuki duo, that's a simple fact. Sure if you look at it the other way then Kakuzu is dumb, but that was my original point too, that if we look at things the opposite way then most of the characters make dumb things regularly.

Another simple fact was that the other guy of this duo was Hidan who wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed to say the least so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I know your argument is "In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" where Naruto acts stupid but so are everybody else... Except it's wrong because among all the character Naruto acts the worse of them all.

He does, maybe i used the wrong words, what i meant is that he uses different variations of his KB and rasengan (and henge), he always finds a new way make them useful. Of course Kishimoto has to come up with new combinations to make the show interesting despite he didn't give any new jutsu to Naruto. Well i guess you simply do not regard a variation of same jutsu sequence as a new trick, but i count that as different and new. For example using smoke against Pain was just a minor addition to his usual kage bunshin and rasengan attack but i count that as new. Also using the double rasenshuriken where the 1st one is a henge is new.

No it's not, it was the same tactic used against Zabuza. Naruto doesn't invent new variation every time he fights. He either overwhelms his enemies under a massive number of KB or use his clone(s) as a misdirection to flank his opponent(s) and sometime also disguises them with Henge. If his foe sees through that Naruto takes damage, gets back on his feet and does it against in a slightly different order until it works, rinse and repeat.
It's effective but it's hardly the mark of cognitive awesomeness you're trying to portrait.

Well maybe you find Sakura's confession an obvious fake but in real life when a girl you loved for years finally confesses you would be too happy to actually use your brain and realize that you are not that lucky.

Yeah, me and everybody else including Naruto the guy who checked animal penises for days after Gaara told him they were going to war and believed the people who told him there was an earthquake when Kabuto flipped the island turtle upside down to list the two last times Naruto proved how good he was at spotting an obvious lie.
Face it, as I already said Sakura was less credible than a naked man selling candies in a kindergarten.

His father was in him for 16 years observing him until the battle with Pain, so that faith couldn't be "blind", he already saw how "dumb" Naruto is and still had faith that Naruto will find the "answer".

His father put his faith in him when he was less than one hour old so yeah it was completely blind.
Find me a single panel, hell a single sentence even remotely implying that those people believed in Naruto because they thought he's smart and I will bow down to your wisdom but we both know there is no such a thing.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I don't think you realize how difficult this is not to joke about what you just said when we're arguing in a dedicated Naruto forum. Let's just say that if you really believe that you must have pretty low self-esteem.
But be reassured you shouldn't believe that anyway. You can be a rocket scientist and read fifty shades of grey as a guilty pleasure while listening to Gangnam style without magically losing your cognitive faculty although science is still determining the effect of the combo Bieber/Twilight.

So you mean Naruto is for idiots just because it's a manga? When you say "low self-esteem" does that imply that i should look down upon people who read the manga, since they must be either children or stupid people? Reading your recent posts where you pointed out many things that you think are wrong with this manga and how stupid many things are in it and now reading the beginning of this post, it seems to me that you think that this manga is simply stupid but since you say i'm wrong that means that both you as a smart guy and also random idiots can enjoy reading it. I agree that both a smart and stupid person can enjoy a manga like this. But i can't agree on saying that this is a stupid manga/story and that this manga has a similar role in our world as Jiraiya's book has in the narutoverse.

First of all Jiraiya's book was not just a "guilty pleasure" for Minato, it was a very important book to him. It was not just a fun experience to have like listening to Gangnam Style (which i admit i like) but it transmits a philosophy about the ninja world that Minato took very seriously. It's almost as if that book was the bible of the narutoverse, a book about the savior. You described Naruto as being a complete idiot who is the most stupid named character in the manga. Not that he is average, as average people can understand a book that also a genius likes to read. But you imply that a complete idiot and a hokage have can have the same understanding of a book, that just doesn't work. And that was my point. It would work with average intelligence or even stupid people, but you went as far as calling Naruto the stupidest guy around.

Originally Posted by Hunter

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

It's simple: Naruto outsmarted Kakuzu. Of course it doesn't prove that Naruto's smart, he isn't. But what it proves - also considering all the other instances where he outsmarts people like Nagato or Zabuza - that he is not a complete idiot as you describe him.

Originally Posted by Hunter

No it's not, it was the same tactic used against Zabuza. Naruto doesn't invent new variation every time he fights. He either overwhelms his enemies under a massive number of KB or use his clone(s) as a misdirection to flank his opponent(s) and sometime also disguises them with Henge. If his foe sees through that Naruto takes damage, gets back on his feet and does it against in a slightly different order until it works, rinse and repeat.
It's effective but it's hardly the mark of cognitive awesomeness you're trying to portrait.

It's all the same pattern as you say but every time the details are different and they always fit the problem. Many successful/great people rely on the same pattern, but success lies in the details that are often overlooked by those who criticize successful people for always using the same pattern. I never called this "cognitive awesomeness", but made it clear tha a complete idiot can't do such things.

Originally Posted by Hunter

His father put his faith in him when he was less than one hour old so yeah it was completely blind.

That was the first time he put his faith in Naruto, i didn't refer to that.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Find me a single panel, hell a single sentence even remotely implying that those people believed in Naruto because they thought he's smart and I will bow down to your wisdom but we both know there is no such a thing.

The second time they meet his fahter already knew Naruto's intellectual level. ( which is clealy not too high ). What i mean is that if Naruto were so incredibly dumb as you described and there was nothing more to it then any sane person would realize that he can't succeed in the mission he was given, and that mission is to find the solution to a problem that not even Minato and Jiraiya could solve. So assuming Minato was not insane when he told to Naruto that he has faith in him we simply can't think of Naruto as being the stupidest guy in the story. And again it seems as if you lived in a binary world: just because i say Naruto is not a complete idiot it doesn't mean that i imply that he is smart, there's a complete world betwen the two extremes.

In summary i would say that Naruto's intelligence is like Chouji's body, he's usually fat but in serious battles he can become really slim for a brief time. I think Chouji's words are best describing what Kishimoto inteded, what i argued about is that the outcome somtimes went too extremely into the dumb direction

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

So you mean Naruto is for idiots just because it's a manga? When you say "low self-esteem" does that imply that i should look down upon people who read the manga, since they must be either children or stupid people? Reading your recent posts where you pointed out many things that you think are wrong with this manga and how stupid many things are in it and now reading the beginning of this post, it seems to me that you think that this manga is simply stupid but since you say i'm wrong that means that both you as a smart guy and also random idiots can enjoy reading it. I agree that both a smart and stupid person can enjoy a manga like this. But i can't agree on saying that this is a stupid manga/story and that this manga has a similar role in our world as Jiraiya's book has in the narutoverse.

It's fascinating, you're arguing against yourself and you don't even realize it. You made the claim that for someone to understand a book that a smart person liked he had to be smart himself because and I quote "if a book is too dumbed down a smart guy [...] would not like it". Naruto is a comics targeting the 10-12 years old, I'm not saying you can't find it entertaining if you're not part of the target population -in fact I said just the opposite- I'm pointing out that if you believed in your own argument then you'd either think yourself stupid or you'd be a 10 years old or you actually believe Naruto's plot isn't dumbed down and, well, let's just say that it'd also prove that a book can be appreciated by all sort of people.

It's almost as if that book was the bible of the narutoverse

...Okay then. You should give up trying to make me give up, Deuteronomy style. Deep words to go by along with "if there is such thing as peace I'll find it! I won't give up!" Scholars will need centuries to decipher those parables of Jiraiya.

It's simple: Naruto outsmarted Kakuzu. Of course it doesn't prove that Naruto's smart, he isn't. But what it proves - also considering all the other instances where he outsmarts people like Nagato or Zabuza - that he is not a complete idiot as you describe him.

I've already told you that many times but you shouldn't truncate a quotation until it has lost all meaning. The sentence you quoted was answering your "point" that Kakazu was the smartest guy of an Akatsuki duo, ie Kakazu was smarter than Hidan which as I pointed out wasn't that much of an accomplishment.

That was the first time he put his faith in Naruto, i didn't refer to that.

It was the only one that matters, he gambled his life on it. And regardless neither him nor the people you listed put their faith in Naruto because of his brain.

What i mean is that if Naruto were so incredibly dumb as you described and there was nothing more to it then any sane person would realize that he can't succeed in the mission he was given, and that mission is to find the solution to a problem that not even Minato and Jiraiya could solve. So assuming Minato was not insane when he told to Naruto that he has faith in him we simply can't think of Naruto as being the stupidest guy in the story.

This is an entirely baseless claim. As I said Minato thought that Naruto would be the One when he was one hour old. This has nothing to do with being dumb or smart or blonde for that matter. It was blind faith because Naruto was his son, period. And the others follow Naruto because he has the amazing knack of making everybody his friend, not because he has a plan to make the world go round.

And again it seems as if you lived in a binary world: just because i say Naruto is not a complete idiot it doesn't mean that i imply that he is smart, there's a complete world betwen the two extremes.

No, what you say is that Naruto is both intellectually brilliant and dumb depending of the author's whim whereas I claim that while he can be cunning at using KB at time he has certainly never been intellectually brilliant whereas he's consistently quite the opposite.

Anyway I don't think we've brought anything new in this discussion for a while now, we're just repeating the same thing over and over at this point so this was my last post on the subject.