Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Jays]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Lolickon in the seemingly superior suit is no match for Graham's skills, nor in the same universe as his passion and will to win...

It's called, catching someone by surprise. Just like Graham caught Setsuna off by surprise, just all Gundam pilots get caught off by surprise when they face off against someone whom they weren't expecting much from.

Did you see when Lockon actually got serious and said "I wont lose to a single flag". You ever consider that maybe he wasn't even trying? Just like Setsuna wasn't even trying his hardest? It seems to me like Graham is going full throttle every time he goes up against a Gundam, but that's to be expected since he knows what they can do, and would be stupid not to. However same doesn't apply for the Gundam pilots, because to them it's just one Flag.

Irregardless, I still hold Graham to same the level of someone as Zechs. I think he's an awesome character, great pilot, but severely overrated by most.

[dom33]

@WD yes you can dream.

good episode character development for setsuna, GRAHAM, WANG, and ali is an interesting character though i doubt he'll live to see the end of the series. the series has interseting politics which is rare in mecha series now a days.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Jays

Irregardless, I still hold Graham to same the level of someone as Zechs. I think he's an awesome character, great pilot, but severely overrated by most.

Graham would soooo kick your a$$...Lmao

Duh he caught him by surprise, but in that skirmish Lockon's passive, laid-back style (a clear trait he has shown) got bested pretty good...The mere fact that he had to calm himself down and even psych himself into STILL downgrading the FLAG based on his overconfidence in his Gundam tells the story... Additionally we've seen no real UNRANGED skill from Lockon all series, so yeah he was no match for Graham's close-quarters aggressive piloting skills...Hence the OMGBBQ kick to the face...


And please get all your Graham hating out since I know it's on the tip of your tounge^^...Ratings be damned Graham IS Gundam...

Originally Posted by dom33

@WD yes you can dream

Thanx^^..I'm off to dreamland right now...So I'll watch the Graham fight one last time in hopes it'll invade my dream...Somehow I bet it's gonna turn into a Sanji 3some p0rn dream though *_*...

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

What empirical logic? "We haven't done it yet, so we'll never do it unless we start an embargo on the middle east?"

Besides, from my understanding, the embargo started after the completion of the space elevators. It wouldn't have made sense before - they still needed the rocket fuel.

I'm not even sure if we're seeing things any differently at this point...

What the show did was add a sentence which we could have done without, that should be of great importance to the history of their middle east, but makes very little sense.

It only makes little sense now because they MAY be holding back on the details for further elaboration later on. Like how many politically driven shows tends to be. I can understand the frustration with the roundabout way the show is handling it, but considering it IS a Gundam show, that's almost a redundant thing to question IMO.

As I said, an energy penury would only slow them down. There's nothing for them in it.

Perhaps there are political reasoning for it beyond the technological and monetary reasons. That is the only way such moves could make sense to me.

You're the one who came up with the answer.

I wouldn't say I've offered definite answers other than adding speculation.

What happened, IMO, is that whatever tensions there was there came to a boil, and nobody cared enough to stop it. Just as nobody in the rich countries today care to stop the conflicts of third world countries which have nothing we want.

An embargo, and the resulting poverty, just made it easier for violence to erupt. But it doesn't explain why they put an embargo in the first place.

Punishment for risking open foreign wars through oil control? There are too many unexplained circumstances to say it doesn't make any sense from what little we know of the middle eastern conflicts in the past 300 years.

You don't solve an oil crisis by putting an embargo on oil exporters. It's like solving starvation by going on a diet.

You're not understanding my point that alternative technologies could have been place to offset by the time the crisis came. Look at our technology today. We have plenty of alternative energy resources that remain dormant simply because we don't need them. Not yet. I don't think technological and energy change is like an on and off switch. Certainly other technology has already existed to offset the lack of oil by the time it started running out. Much like it is speculated today in our world.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Graham would soooo kick your a$$...Lmao

Duh he caught him by surprise, but in that skirmish Lockon's passive, laid-back style (a clear trait he has shown) got bested pretty good...

Uh...The fight was never finished. In that sense, Lockon was never bested yet.

The mere fact that he had to calm himself down and even psych himself into STILL downgrading the FLAG based on his overconfidence in his Gundam tells the story... Additionally we've seen no real UNRANGED skill from Lockon all series, so yeah he was no match for Graham's close-quarters aggressive piloting skills...Hence the OMGBBQ kick to the face...

As it has been said , the fight wasn't even done. While I do admit Graham is a pretty good pilot, it doesn't mean anything if he didn't put up a Ali Al-Sarges vs Setsuna show with Lockon.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

You're not understanding my point that alternative technologies could have been place to offset by the time the crisis came. Look at our technology today. We have plenty of alternative energy resources that remain dormant simply because we don't need them. Not yet. I don't think technological and energy change is like an on and off switch. Certainly other technology has already existed to offset the lack of oil by the time it started running out. Much like it is speculated today in our world.

They're "dormant" because they're not economical. The natural rise of the oil prices, along with the maturation of the technologies involved in alternative energy sources, will change that. An embargo would be quite redundant, and more hindrance than help.

[edf91]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They're "dormant" because they're not economical. The natural rise of the oil prices, along with the maturation of the technologies involved in alternative energy sources, will change that. An embargo would be quite redundant, and more hindrance than help.

I think his point was that there are several technology that is "ready" for adaptation, but wasn't taken seriously because of "no need", and when there is no need, there is no infrastructure to support it, hence "not economical." There is always a huge cost when rolling out something like this, and some people dislike change. Just look at Gundam 00 - if you break the solar receiver, you are done. The major reason people even bothered was because they dislike the change, not to mention the fact that it would transfer the position of power to someone else (Union or UN, in the case in Gundam 00).

Unless some big corporation or countries are willing to push for the change, nothing would ever happen. In the world of Gundam 00, seems like UN (maybe Union and HRL) is forcing the issue, instead of using the "market" to decide.

[mikyu]

Originally Posted by brightman

I posted a Eps 1-11 comparison here.

thank you!

[Demongod86]

Zechs Graham is not. I mean yes, Graham is cool as hell, but his hardware simply doesn't measure up! If it does, well then...

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by edf91

I think his point was that there are several technology that is "ready" for adaptation, but wasn't taken seriously because of "no need", and when there is no need, there is no infrastructure to support it, hence "not economical." There is always a huge cost when rolling out something like this, and some people dislike change. Just look at Gundam 00 - if you break the solar receiver, you are done. The major reason people even bothered was because they dislike the change, not to mention the fact that it would transfer the position of power to someone else (Union or UN, in the case in Gundam 00).

Unless some big corporation or countries are willing to push for the change, nothing would ever happen. In the world of Gundam 00, seems like UN (maybe Union and HRL) is forcing the issue, instead of using the "market" to decide.

After the massive investments needed for the elevators, I don't think they were in any danger of going "Oh, we prefer fossil fuel after all".

[Matrim]

I have a stupid question? If Azadistan has oil why does it desperately need access to solar energy ASAP? Last time I checked embargos did not stop countries from using the materials in question themselves. Shouldn't they be in desperate need for money, not energy? Then again, the existence of oil deposits in the 24th century is quite fantastical to begin with.

It's just me, but with Yagami Light's VA and Marina being as....weak willed VA plus the whole middle eastern background, it really makes it hard to like the characters =(
For one, to go from Yagami Light and his incredibly awesome character to some loner QQ boy like Setsuna....yeah..........anyone else feel pain whenever they watch? It's like...yeah I know you want to expand your repetoire, but this just doesn't seem to fit a MAIN CHARACTER.

Expand his repertoire? He is voicing pretty much only nutjobs, how is this an expansion?

has anyone yet found out the role of the 2 students? i mean plotwise

To make the rest of the cast look less retarded in comparison, would be my guess.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Matrim

I have a stupid question? If Azadistan has oil why does it desperately need access to solar energy ASAP? Last time I checked embargos did not stop countries from using the materials in question themselves. Shouldn't they be in desperate need for money, not energy? Then again, the existence of oil deposits in the 24th century is quite fantastical to begin with.



Expand his repertoire? He is voicing pretty much only nutjobs, how is this an expansion?



To make the rest of the cast look less retarded in comparison, would be my guess.

Because their oil is running out and their economy is in shambles due to nobody needing to *buy* oil anymore. Oil isn't the only thing countries need unless you're telling me that Iraq, Iran, etc... have absolutely NO imports these days

[edf91]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

After the massive investments needed for the elevators, I don't think they were in any danger of going "Oh, we prefer fossil fuel after all".

Prefer is the term here - if they "break" the elevator, it will be back to "need"

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by edf91

Prefer is the term here - if they "break" the elevator, it will be back to "need"

There just isn't enough oil left. No matter what happens to the elevator, petroleum would never be able to return to its dominance in 00 again. That's the weakness of a non-renewable resource; the good times just can't last.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

GRAHAM ACRE

I'm new to the Gundam franchise, but from my perspective, Graham and Sergei have been far more sympathetic characters than the Gundam pilots. Lockon, being the most competent and un-crazy of the meisters, is likable, but I also find his battles sooooo... dull. It's not his fault that he ridiculously overmatches his opponents, but it's hard for me to really root for a guy who spends all his time sniping targets at long distances in near perfect safety. The fight with Graham actually made Lockon look better to me, because we finally got to see him in a melee episode.

Nevertheless, the vastly superior equipment of the Gundams I think casts doubts on their pilots' abilities (at present at least). Factoring in the Gundams' technological edge, Ali is clearly a better pilot than Setsuna, and Graham is I think a peer of both Setsuna and Lockon (too little information to say who's "better" because both fights ended prematurely--people can talk about surprise as much as they want, but Graham went toe-to-toe with suits far superior to his). And Sergei is the series' best tactician by far, whose plans were only sabotaged by yet another Gundam power-up when Tiera showed off that weird unit. He's also probably the best military leader; aggressive, but not careless with his men's lives, and a man who understands when it's best to realize that one should live to fight another day. Graham doesn't have Sergei's maturity, but even he has a loyalty and affection from his subordinates that neither Sumeragi nor Lockon commands. And while Graham has a real bloodlust to him, he was still disciplined enough to break off his fight for the sake of his larger mission. Tiera and Lockon are probably the only Gundam meisters who could be reliably counted on to do that.

I know it adds to the drama of the series to have the meisters all have such severe "issues," but I for one like the characters who aren't so *crazy*, and who look like plausible members of a military organization.

[Terra]

The problem with that is CB's ideas aren't exactly what a normal person would agree with. To get people who would be willing to join up and pick a fight with the world means you're going to get people who aren't exactly sane. To agree with CB they generally have to of had something happen in their pasts to agree with such contradictory ideas. Hence why the sane pilots are with the main power militaries rather than CB, which isn't a normal military that can recruit openly.

[LightningZERO]

I just noticed that Graham Acre was spitting saliva when he screamed Graham Acre or something

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny

Uh...The fight was never finished. In that sense, Lockon was never bested yet.

Well I'm not talking about "In that sense", I'm talking in the sense of the skirmish that was shown...Graham bested Dynames and it's pilot in that unfinished showdown...There's no getting around that...

As it has been said , the fight wasn't even done. While I do admit Graham is a pretty good pilot, it doesn't mean anything if he didn't put up a Ali Al-Sarges vs Setsuna show with Lockon.

Maybe it means nothing to you, but I'm sure both Graham and Lockon will take something away from the fight...Graham that he more than has what it takes to challenge a Gundam, and Lockon will probably respect seemingly inferior suits and be a little more serious out there rather than having gleeful chats with haro's during the heat of battle...Not that he'll completley change (nor should he), but getting kicked to the head by "just a Flag" might do the trick...

Originally Posted by Aquafina

Graham doesn't have Sergei's maturity, but even he has a loyalty and affection from his subordinates that neither Sumeragi nor Lockon commands. And while Graham has a real bloodlust to him, he was still disciplined enough to break off his fight for the sake of his larger mission. Tiera and Lockon are probably the only Gundam meisters who could be reliably counted on to do that.

Well you might be new to the Gundam franchise but characters like Graham Acre certainley aren't...If you like his persona you should try a few older G-series inwhich Graham follows a long tradition of like-characters...

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Zechs Graham is not. I mean yes, Graham is cool as hell, but his hardware simply doesn't measure up! If it does, well then...

That's just more ZOMG overblown G-Wing comparisons...Graham doesn't have to live up to Zechs--he has his own coolness factor that has nothing to do with him...But as always I still endorse any competent scenerio that gets him in that mask^^...Graham is really like Glemy Toto's (ZZ) cooler older brother he can't live up to or something ...

Originally Posted by LightningZERO

I just noticed that Graham Acre was spitting saliva when he screamed Graham Acre or something

I'd like to think it wasn't slobber, but in-fact sweat dripping from his face as he incured a serious g-force type of deal when he brilliantly dodged Lockon's killshot...

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Well I'm not talking about "In that sense", I'm talking in the sense of the skirmish that was shown...Graham bested Dynames and it's pilot in that unfinished showdown...There's no getting around that...

In other words, it's a small victory over the Gundams for Graham where he managed to overcome what can be considered the best proficiency of Lockon due to the latter's lack of caution. I can accept that.

In a way, I hope you do understand that Lockon's inability to snipe Graham down was partly responsible for the great show of prowess from Graham.

Maybe it means nothing to you, but I'm sure both Graham and Lockon will take something away from the fight...Graham that he more than has what it takes to challenge a Gundam, and Lockon will probably respect seemingly inferior suits and be a little more serious out there rather than having gleeful chats with haro's during the heat of battle...Not that he'll completley change (nor should he), but getting kicked to the head by "just a Flag" might do the trick...

Grunt suits 1, Gundams 0...Is it? His reaction is still justified, though, especially when Flags and Tieriens are treated as grunt suits with pilots who are considerably less skilled than AEU's ace. When it comes down to fighting, anyone would get lax if shooting down grunt suits become a little too routine.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny

In other words, it's a small victory over the Gundams for Graham where he managed to overcome what can be considered the best proficiency of Lockon due to the latter's lack of caution. I can accept that.

All that matters is the final outcome and to the victor goes the spoils...Lets say in the randomness of the moment Graham's beam saber hit a vital area of Dynames and somehow (Perhaps even indirectly) Lockon is severly injured or dies because of this...Are we still saying "Oh he wasn't really bested..." even if he's now dead or something?? Underestimating an opponent has never been carte blanche for giving excuses during battle...You win, you win, you get kicked in the head, you got kicked in the head...

In a way, I hope you do understand that Lockon's inability to snipe Graham down was partly responsible for the great show of prowess from Graham.

Uh, ummmmmm...

Isn't this what I've been saying from the start? O_o That Graham's piloting prowess is why he bested Dynames in that little skirmish...Am I missing something?

When it comes down to fighting, anyone would get lax if shooting down grunt suits become a little too routine.

Obviously but that's still not a good excuse...An excuse, yes...A good one, no...

As for scoring I'll go to the boxing card which reads Graham 10-9, round 1...Who knows what the next round will bring, but there's no doubt he gets the decision in that mini-spar...