AnimeSuki Forums

Bonzo · 2010-12-02, 09:49

Preview:

Spoiler for This time readers will become crazy:

This week-end I'll go to make my stand in a comic convenction, then, for some comic news, next week.

Wing Zero Alpha · 2010-12-02, 11:05

Whoa, evil Rai. That's a new one.

Betteroffer · 2010-12-04, 23:26

Well I'm certainly late in replying but here I am nonetheless.

I have to agree with Wing Zero Alpha in regards to much of this alternate history being too farfetched for me. Beyond the issues of "how" that he raised, I also feel a need to ask "why" on several topics, as well as a few other questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzo

Well, about C.C head chopped, I read a lot of different stories, for example in the "nightmare nunnally" comic she was burned alive like "witch".
Another fact, a code owner with head chopped can revive if someone fix the head to the body, but I believe more of the murderers just wanted the code, then for survive, the code pass to the first human available.

If I'm understanding this right, then it still leaves the question of why C.C. took so long to get rid of her Code if decapitation would still kill her. As well, if it will move to another person of its own volition, then wouldn't it do so when she was burned at the stake? Decapitation may have been merely (very heavily) implied but her being burned at the stake was explicitly shown happening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzo

About the example of Horatio Nelson, britannia noblemen founding fathers just built that city-state in Canada to lick their wounds, then America colonization worked like we know.

So in your version, the betrayal of Benjamin Franklin and the American colonies losing the revolutionary war was just a part of Charles "rewrite" of history?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzo

For how V.V used the collective unconscious without C.C, the explanation isn't ended there, in chp 4 the rest, however I could explain better, united states changed in britannia empire, then, and using charles geass + collective unconscious, the world accepted it without investigate (that sort of things) but for brainwash and control billions of people, the power had to be MORE and MORE, then C.C.

Now we come to the bulk of my concerns. First of all, why would Charles rewrite history to make Britannia an "Evil Empire" and near global pariah nation, when he had already made Britannia so beloved and respected (even if it was through Geass) that he could influence China's government and make everyone get rid of nuclear weapons entirely? At this point, why not just ask to be allowed to search for and excavate the Geass ruins? He'd probably still need to use his Geass here and there for further "persuasion", but they apparently left the city of London untouched in the show. If he was able to rewrite history, then why not do so to further expand the amount of love and respect people had for Britannia?

If I'm guessing on the latest preview page, then Rai was the one who ordered the SAZ massacre at V.V.'s request. Assuming from the art, that he has a Geass similar to Lelouch's as in Lost Colors, then this only adds to my above query of why Britannia bothered making war, when a Geass like Rai's and Lelouch's would have let them control people much more effectively, be it the Imperial court or foreign leaders. In fact, why not hook Rai into the World of C like Charles did to alter history, but instead have him make the world get along or at least not oppose Britannia in its completion of Ragnarok?

On that last note, why would Charles be so disbeleiving of Lelouch using his Geass on the World of C, when Charles had done precisely the same before?

Finally, there is the issue with the Geass Canceller. Jeremiah was using it all across Tokyo in order to free any soldiers and workers that Lelouch may have used his Geass on, when he happened to Cancel Shirley. In regards to Charles' "rewriting" history around 1991, and assuming that they just shifted the "A.D." to "a.t.b" then wouldn't anyone over 30 be Cancelled as well, and then wouldn't people around 40 and above start making a fuss about the bizarre mass hallucination of an entire alternate history?

My long list aside, the chapters were still fun to read, with Elizabeth snuggling Lelouch being my favorite scene, and with any luck, you already planned to address my concerns in the next chapter, as with Wing's. I'm interested how all these revelations will bear on Suzaku, given that Euphemia's Geassing wasn't even done by Lelouch (unless Rai was sadistic enough to Geass Lelouch to Geass Euphemia) and that Rolo, someone Suzaku is indirectly responsible for getting put in Ashford, killed Shirley.

Bonzo · 2010-12-05, 17:03

In fact, chapyter 4 duty is fix more of your observations.

Wing Zero Alpha · 2010-12-07, 13:57

Not to borrow from my own work, but I would think such a revelation would break Suzaku a fair amount, as he would realize his entire grudge against Lelouch was based around a series of misunderstandings and misperceptions. This would go along with the fact that he used Lelouch's acts as Zero as his own excuse to aid in and then later cause "evil" acts on his part, such as his selling Lulu out to the Emperor for patronage to the Knights of the Round, subjugating Japan even further and aiding Britannia in conquering the EU. Upon realizing that Lelouch was actually virtuous and that he only pretended to be a villain (the dialogue between him and Euphie at the SAZ would especially be hard on him), Suzaku would lose the meaning behind his grudge as well as the basis for his own horrid acts. At the least this would cause him to see a good portion of his life as a waste and at worst he'd end up like my Suzaku in Megiddo, though I would think Euphie (and Nunnally if my hunch is correct) would be able to prevent the latter.

Betteroffer · 2010-12-07, 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzo

In fact, chapyter 4 duty is fix more of your observations.

That's good to hear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wing Zero Alpha

Not to borrow from my own work, but I would think such a revelation would break Suzaku a fair amount, as he would realize his entire grudge against Lelouch was based around a series of misunderstandings and misperceptions. This would go along with the fact that he used Lelouch's acts as Zero as his own excuse to aid in and then later cause "evil" acts on his part, such as his selling Lulu out to the Emperor for patronage to the Knights of the Round, subjugating Japan even further and aiding Britannia in conquering the EU. Upon realizing that Lelouch was actually virtuous and that he only pretended to be a villain (the dialogue between him and Euphie at the SAZ would especially be hard on him), Suzaku would lose the meaning behind his grudge as well as the basis for his own horrid acts. At the least this would cause him to see a good portion of his life as a waste and at worst he'd end up like my Suzaku in Megiddo, though I would think Euphie (and Nunnally if my hunch is correct) would be able to prevent the latter.

I agree that I would expect a degree of eye opening, but I really can't see Suzaku breaking from much of this, at least not as thouroughly as in Megiddo. Lelouch was many things, but virtuous is not one of them, as Katase, Xing-ke, and the BK could attest to when he used and discarded them. Nunally was more important to Lelouch than the world, just as death was more important to Suzaku (see the destruction of Tokyo), though the conflicting desires did bring both of them pain.

As for the conversation with Euphemia, it will depend on just how close to canon it actually went. In the show Lelouch did still plan to use Geass on Euphemia in such a manner that would utterly destroy her image and likely shatter her spirit. Even if he was "courteous" enough to make her forget that her favorite brother was the person she had just shot, she would still be reviled as a liar and trickster who gave the Japanese false hope, just to murder their savior on live television.

Mostly though, without the Devastation, I think Suzaku could effectively hold onto his belief that while Lelouch's actions brought about good, there were still other, more "correct" options available. In some ways, Suzaku reminds me of Patrick Kenzie from Gone Baby Gone.

Plus there is the fact that Bonzo's Suzaku is altogether more vicious than in canon.

Bonzo · 2010-12-08, 19:02

New preview, I'm a little perplexed about suzaku body proportions in the last panel.

Spoiler for spoiler:

Betteroffer · 2010-12-08, 19:40

Well that certainly looks like a shattered expression to me in the last panel. Lelouch Geassing Euphemia on Kamine island into doing something is an interesting angle, and I'm curious how this will bear on his later plan to Geass her to shoot him at the SAZ. Best guess I've got is a slight mindwipe by V.V. when they were dropped into the ruin chamber with Schneizel, so Lelouch would still believe that he could affect her.

Just the same, I am a bit concerned that you may be moving to try and retcon out some of Lelouch's more questioable actions, but I'll reserve judgment until I see the full story.

Despite the apparent deep and painful nature of these revelations, I found myself imagining that Euphemia was yelling at the memory image to Lelouch that he had promised not to look.

Wing Zero Alpha · 2010-12-08, 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

I agree that I would expect a degree of eye opening, but I really can't see Suzaku breaking from much of this, at least not as thouroughly as in Megiddo. Lelouch was many things, but virtuous is not one of them, as Katase, Xing-ke, and the BK could attest to when he used and discarded them. Nunally was more important to Lelouch than the world, just as death was more important to Suzaku (see the destruction of Tokyo), though the conflicting desires did bring both of them pain.

Okay, bad choice of wording there. Basically I meant was Suzaku would see that Lelouch wasn't and still isn't the monster he pretended to be through the revelation.

Quote:

As for the conversation with Euphemia, it will depend on just how close to canon it actually went. In the show Lelouch did still plan to use Geass on Euphemia in such a manner that would utterly destroy her image and likely shatter her spirit. Even if he was "courteous" enough to make her forget that her favorite brother was the person she had just shot, she would still be reviled as a liar and trickster who gave the Japanese false hope, just to murder their savior on live television.

Yeah, Lelouch planned to use Geass on Euphie at the beginning, but only because he believed Euphie was being disgustingly naive in her plan for the SAZ, namely that she was doing it for him. When Euphie proved to him that she actually thought it all through, he stepped down and admitted Euphie as the victor, which is the point that would drive home on Suzaku's psyche (whereas if Lelouch had been what Suzaku thought he was, then he would have intentionally Geassed Euphie regardless), along with the idea that his whole reason for hating Lelouch after that point was based on an accident.

Quote:

Mostly though, without the Devastation, I think Suzaku could effectively hold onto his belief that while Lelouch's actions brought about good, there were still other, more "correct" options available. In some ways, Suzaku reminds me of Patrick Kenzie from Gone Baby Gone.

That's debatable, as Suzaku has learned firsthand that those "other options" amounted to nothing in the end. Yeah, Lelouch wasn't perfect, but he gained results, whereas all Suzaku did was escalate Britannia's hold on Japan and Europe and almost aided in establishing the majority of Southeast Asia as Areas. Yes, he routinely claimed it all went to a good cause, that being him becoming Knight of One and establishing his personal sovereignty over Japan, but dismissing the fact it was all for nothing in the end, he still did the very thing he belittled Lelouch over (committing evil acts for "good" intentions), and even then he wouldn't have solved anything.

Even on the off chance that he didn't act to Japan the way Vidkun Quisling did to Norway on the Third Reich's behalf, he would have still essentially damned the rest of the world to servitude in order to save his own little corner of it. For all the things Lelouch had done, at least he considered everyone, not just the Japanese. As such, if Suzaku doesn't feel even the slightest remorse over that past way of thinking, then he's more of a self-righteous SOB than we all took him for.

After all, even Neville Chamberlain eventually caved in and declared war on Germany (whereas before he notoriously attempted to keep peace with Hitler) when the latter invaded Poland.

Quote:

Plus there is the fact that Bonzo's Suzaku is altogether more vicious than in canon.

True enough, but again that's mostly due to the fact he still believes Lelouch purposely turned Euphie into a monster for his own gain. Take that away, replace it with a full dosage of "truth" and "reality", and he would lose the very foundation of his existance for the past 12-13 years or so. And believe me, that's never a pleasent experience, realizing that you lived your life the way you did over an accident or misunderstanding, especially when you yourself have caused so much damage in the meantime.

Wing Zero Alpha · 2010-12-08, 19:56

As for the page itself, I'm with Betteroffer, Lelouch Geassing Euphie on Kamine is a new one. I don't have a clue on what he was trying to accomplish there, but I get the feeling that it was something beneficial for Euphie's sake as opposed to him attempting to use her or humiliate her like he tried to do at the SAZ initially (but happened anyway). And damn, as sadistic as I may sound, I actually like that look on Suzaku's face (yes yes, I would). Talk about "deer in front of the headlights".

Bonzo · 2010-12-08, 20:21

Well, the flashback on kamine island is just a giant lie Euphie's saying to Suzaku.

Lelouch not used the geass on her to start the massacre, but at the same time he couldn't use the geass on euphie to stop her, because he used it already in kamine island.

But, for what?

However, I'll fix suzaku's body tomorrow.

Bonzo · 2010-12-09, 09:08

Suzaku's body fixed.

Betteroffer · 2010-12-12, 06:06

I'm not sure I understand, but I hope this "lie" Euphemia is telling doesn't cover this revelation directly, as it seems too harsh to 'break' Suzaku with a false revelation, especially if it comes from the woman he loves. Whatever the results are, I would hope that in the end Suzaku could find a way to reconcile with Lelouch, as their friendship was trully important to each other in a deep sense. I know Kallen told Suzaku not to come back, but I'd still hope for some improvement in their relationship somehow.

Also, something I forgot to mention about the previous page's art is that in the third panel Lelouch's left arm is coming out of his cape like a coat, even though the cape is still closed at that level around his chest.

Spoiler for Because it's off topic:

I know this isn't the right place for this so please just consider this me saying my peace and agreeing to disagree beyond this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wing Zero Alpha

Yeah, Lelouch planned to use Geass on Euphie at the beginning, but only because he believed Euphie was being disgustingly naive in her plan for the SAZ, namely that she was doing it for him. When Euphie proved to him that she actually thought it all through, he stepped down and admitted Euphie as the victor, which is the point that would drive home on Suzaku's psyche (whereas if Lelouch had been what Suzaku thought he was, then he would have intentionally Geassed Euphie regardless), along with the idea that his whole reason for hating Lelouch after that point was based on an accident.

Nonetheless, he was going to psychologically destroy a 16 year old girl because the peace she wanted to create was not peace according to his standards, and only stopped when he learned she was less cynical than he had presumed. There are many who would understandibly take umbrage at this, Suzaku being one of them.

As well, the Euphinator incident was only fuel to the fire of his hatred for Zero which stemmed largely from differing ideologies, which he was entirley accurate in his understanding of.

Quote:

That's debatable, as Suzaku has learned firsthand that those "other options" amounted to nothing in the end. Yeah, Lelouch wasn't perfect, but he gained results, whereas all Suzaku did was escalate Britannia's hold on Japan and Europe and almost aided in establishing the majority of Southeast Asia as Areas. Yes, he routinely claimed it all went to a good cause, that being him becoming Knight of One and establishing his personal sovereignty over Japan, but dismissing the fact it was all for nothing in the end, he still did the very thing he belittled Lelouch over (committing evil acts for "good" intentions), and even then he wouldn't have solved anything.

The thing about Suzaku is that he believes the means justify the end as much as Lelouch believes tha the end justifies the means. At several points he declares that "results gained using contemptible means are worthless to me" and in the Sound Drama 'The Final Invitation' he claims he doesn't care about success or failure of the SAZ and that one must take risks to change others' opinions. There is also a brief hypothetical scenario mentioned by one of the creators (forgot which one) about how Lelouch and Suzaku would handle a car accident with two injured people. They state that Suzaku would try to save both of the injured parties while Lelouch would opt to help the least injured among them. Lelouch would be able to save the one he tried to help, but Suzaku's actions would result in both people dying. In response, they said that while Suzaku would curse his weakess, eventually he'd asuage himself that he did the right thing.

The differences are less about what is right and wrong as a goal, but rather as a method of attaining that goal and as such, Suzaku would and did decry the methods Lelouch utilized and his goals rarely if ever needed to factor into the equation.

Granted, Suzaku seems to change after Turn 19, but this only comes as a result of him essentially snapping, and even then he still argues in favor of working with the system with Kallen on Damocles. Suzaku's final characterization may have decided to place results over means, but that does not require him to view it as the correct thing to do.

As for the last part, yes Suzaku despised what he was doing and hated himself throughout the series and as a KoR as shown in one of the R2 Picture Dramas where he rescues a little girl in the EU.

Bonzo · 2010-12-12, 18:54

New preview:

Spoiler for Beware to Suzaku:

Wing Zero Alpha · 2010-12-12, 20:47

Betteroffer, check your PMs for a reply.

Bonzo · 2010-12-17, 13:48

A big preview, two page to go, then this is the lst preview before the complete chapter.

Spoiler for A biiig one!:

Bonzo · 2010-12-22, 12:34

1 page to go.

Hooves · 2010-12-22, 23:43

Really looking forward to the release Bonzo

GundamFan0083 · 2010-12-23, 00:29

I'll second that Hooves.
I too am anxious for the next release.
Excellent job with this fan-manga Bonzo.
It has been very entertaining and a pleasure to both view and read.
You are clearly both a talented writer and artist.

Bonzo · 2010-12-24, 14:55

Chapter art complete, now, the text.

2010-12-23, 00:29	Link #519
GundamFan0083 Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: classified	I'll second that Hooves. I too am anxious for the next release. Excellent job with this fan-manga Bonzo. It has been very entertaining and a pleasure to both view and read. You are clearly both a talented writer and artist. __________________

2010-12-02, 09:49	Link #501
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	Preview: Spoiler for This time readers will become crazy: This week-end I'll go to make my stand in a comic convenction, then, for some comic news, next week.

2010-12-02, 11:05	Link #502
Wing Zero Alpha Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010	Whoa, evil Rai. That's a new one.

2010-12-05, 17:03	Link #504
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	In fact, chapyter 4 duty is fix more of your observations.

2010-12-07, 13:57	Link #505
Wing Zero Alpha Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010	Not to borrow from my own work, but I would think such a revelation would break Suzaku a fair amount, as he would realize his entire grudge against Lelouch was based around a series of misunderstandings and misperceptions. This would go along with the fact that he used Lelouch's acts as Zero as his own excuse to aid in and then later cause "evil" acts on his part, such as his selling Lulu out to the Emperor for patronage to the Knights of the Round, subjugating Japan even further and aiding Britannia in conquering the EU. Upon realizing that Lelouch was actually virtuous and that he only pretended to be a villain (the dialogue between him and Euphie at the SAZ would especially be hard on him), Suzaku would lose the meaning behind his grudge as well as the basis for his own horrid acts. At the least this would cause him to see a good portion of his life as a waste and at worst he'd end up like my Suzaku in Megiddo, though I would think Euphie (and Nunnally if my hunch is correct) would be able to prevent the latter.

2010-12-08, 19:02	Link #507
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	New preview, I'm a little perplexed about suzaku body proportions in the last panel. Spoiler for spoiler:

2010-12-08, 19:40	Link #508
Betteroffer Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009	Well that certainly looks like a shattered expression to me in the last panel. Lelouch Geassing Euphemia on Kamine island into doing something is an interesting angle, and I'm curious how this will bear on his later plan to Geass her to shoot him at the SAZ. Best guess I've got is a slight mindwipe by V.V. when they were dropped into the ruin chamber with Schneizel, so Lelouch would still believe that he could affect her. Just the same, I am a bit concerned that you may be moving to try and retcon out some of Lelouch's more questioable actions, but I'll reserve judgment until I see the full story. Despite the apparent deep and painful nature of these revelations, I found myself imagining that Euphemia was yelling at the memory image to Lelouch that he had promised not to look.

2010-12-08, 19:56	Link #510
Wing Zero Alpha Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010	As for the page itself, I'm with Betteroffer, Lelouch Geassing Euphie on Kamine is a new one. I don't have a clue on what he was trying to accomplish there, but I get the feeling that it was something beneficial for Euphie's sake as opposed to him attempting to use her or humiliate her like he tried to do at the SAZ initially (but happened anyway). And damn, as sadistic as I may sound, I actually like that look on Suzaku's face (yes yes, I would). Talk about "deer in front of the headlights".

2010-12-08, 20:21	Link #511
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	Well, the flashback on kamine island is just a giant lie Euphie's saying to Suzaku. Lelouch not used the geass on her to start the massacre, but at the same time he couldn't use the geass on euphie to stop her, because he used it already in kamine island. But, for what? However, I'll fix suzaku's body tomorrow.

2010-12-09, 09:08	Link #512
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	Suzaku's body fixed.

2010-12-12, 18:54	Link #514
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	New preview: Spoiler for Beware to Suzaku:

2010-12-12, 20:47	Link #515
Wing Zero Alpha Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010	Betteroffer, check your PMs for a reply.

2010-12-17, 13:48	Link #516
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	A big preview, two page to go, then this is the lst preview before the complete chapter. Spoiler for A biiig one!:

2010-12-22, 12:34	Link #517
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	1 page to go.

2010-12-24, 14:55	Link #520
Bonzo I change anime endings. Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Italy Age: 46	Chapter art complete, now, the text.