General Eroge Impressions & Discussion

[Rising Dragon]

... the only eroge I've played is Tokimeki Check-In!. =/

[Crimrui]

Originally Posted by Mahou

@Da Capo II: If you enjoyed Da Capo 1, you will likely enjoy II as well even though I think DC1 main lead was better. Yukiyoshi is imho one of the worse prota's in the VNs I've played. Tell me once you are done with it, then I can copy & past my reply from OMF here .

Only an hour or so in, but yeah the main guy is pretty lame at times. Still enjoyable so far. And sure, gonna throw down my opinion when I finish it, no prob.

Originally Posted by GDB

Bad ends, alternate routes, or just a slight change in dialogue.

Around the net, some say that one particular bad-end near the end of the game was awesome. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by Soviet

Kamidori is great, even though the characters and story are complete ass. Very addicting gameplay. Its "prequel" Himegari Dungeon Meister was a better game, in my opinion.

Never played that one ether, but yeah, I've seen talks around forums who say the same thing. I don't know, from the looks of it the game has that atmosphere that draws me in. The presentation or the art, not really sure but I would like to play it someday. Well, with understanding hopefully.

[Duo Maxwell]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The art complaints.... well yeah, I've seen better art but I took the "size of his manhood" to be subjective impressionism (*feels* huge to him and *looks* scary to his partner). Again, for $40 the game is a relatively cheap investment to legally check the VN scene out. I'd place the overall quality of art and story somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.

Aside from the huge manhood (god I hate that shit), I find the art is quite appealing, given it was made in 2003. The story isn't all that great, but it does move my emotion up and down together with the story's flow.

And Doctor West is awesome. So as Winfield.


Now I am patiently waiting for Full Metal Daemon Muramasa to be fully translated.

[Hooves]

I'm interested in Full Metal Daemon Muramasa being translated, although there are still other visual novels that translators tend to translate first and it might take Muramasa a long time until it eventually gets translated unless someone dedicated to it wants to translate it.

[relentlessflame]

Just an FYI that I split the conversation about Decision Points/Interactivity into its own thread, as I think it's an interesting topic that deserves its own conversation, and this way it can continue its own trail without splitting the focus of this thread. (If anyone was in the process of writing a post in this thread on this topic, I'll move it over to the new thread.)

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Aside from the huge manhood (god I hate that shit), I find the art is quite appealing, given it was made in 2003. The story isn't all that great, but it does move my emotion up and down together with the story's flow.

And Doctor West is awesome. So as Winfield.


Now I am patiently waiting for Full Metal Daemon Muramasa to be fully translated.

I wasn't fond of Dr. West at first (too much Team Rocketness) but changed my opinion dramatically about half way through. I just took the "manhood" exaggeration art as portraying how it felt to him (and how it *looked* to certain other characters) but yeah... lose that idea. Finished the "main" story line last night, hopefully I saved properly to see how the other branches play out. I thought they did a pretty fair job of weaving Lovecraft elements throughout on top of a 'standard guy seeking girl amid danger" story. The villain Tiberius was particularly gruesome.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Never said Zanma Taisei was bad...just that Kishin Hishou is much much superior. Of course if you have PS2 you can just play the SFW version of Zanma Taisei.

well, I'm actually speaking to the flamers. and if we're actually discussing this game, it should have its own thread

[Klashikari]

Having a change of pace here, so putting Rewrite on hold (Romeo writing style really put a strain on my brain...).

Instead, currently reading Yuzusoft latest eroge: Noble Works (yeah, quite late I know).
And so far, I have little to no complaint: a moege with a colorful cast, quirks and good laugh around, excellent production value etc.
One special mention though: Sena is bloody HOT and MOE, to the point it is criminal. I personally don't have any maid fetish whatsoever, but Sena is pushing so many buttons I almost had an heart attack on various occasions (and the number of galge character dealing me this effect can be counted with a single hand, so ).

Sena's route was quite heartwarming, and it is nice to see that Yuzusoft writers learned from their past works, and decide not to drag drama needlessly (I still have a very bad aftertaste with Natsuzora's Yuiko...).
The pace was definitely brisk without leaving out details nor actual interactions and characters development.

Spoiler for Sena's route:

I definitely liked how Sena's struggle was portrayed, without turning it into a lame "everything is solved magically" nor an elogy of drama oozing everywhere.
For instance, her insecurity regarding her feelings towards Takumi was about right: they did show how her feelings seemed to be mixed up with the ones she had for her father, without going on ridiculous lengths. This is even more evident with the hair pin incident: they could potentially make Sena mopping for god knows how long, but instead, she was quick to find out the trick and understood Takumi & co intention all along.
The former occurence also set in stone the core problem Sena had from the beginning: insecurity about her place where she belongs and how loneliness can gnaw her despite it is something you wouldn't expect at the first glance, due to her personality and initial situation.

I was however a bit surprised they didn't use the "best solution" in this route: I was honestly expecting Shuri to offer a job to Takumi as a butler (since he is back from hospital now) and that he can always be used as a double if situations were to arise.
Of course, the ending wasn't bad at all and tries not to be an easy compromise to the situation. However, considering how the Kanemoto were portrayed so far, especially Akari and Shuri, I was expecting this solution as a natural outcome (especially after the "wedding" celebration).

Regarding Sena's character... well, already stated above: damn hot and adorable (a pity she doesn't use the hair ornament Takumi gave her, which was weird if you ask me). It was always hilarious how her imagination was wild, to scary levels (Akari's route "special milk"... really now, Sena? ). Gogyou Nazuna really did an excellent job at voicing a very sweet girl without going on the braindead lengths.
Most definitely my favourite character here, and potentionally going to stay in my overall heroines top ranking.

But really, I was quite surprised there wasn't any main/sub characters that gritted my nerves. All of them have their quirks and own spark that are noteworthy (even the likes of Shinkai and Isumi ).

An excellent dose of sexy and moe fluff, along with hilarious situations and other havoc (Chiaki is really top tier, for good and -bad- reasons )

[Soviet]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Instead, currently reading Yuzusoft latest eroge: Noble Works

I got that mixed up with Noblesse Oblige which I read some time last year and was quite confused for a moment. These moege just blur together in my head.

Anyway, put Vermillion on hold to finish the true route of Euphoria. My, what a ride that was. Many eroge could learn a thing or two from Euphoria when it comes to pacing. There was not a single boring moment in this entire novel, nicely done. The plot-twist in the true-route was definitely unexpected but at least it guarantees that I'm not going to forget this so soon. It's kind of amazing how this story made me hate some its characters s much.

Waiting for Irotoridori no Sekai, if the spoilers are to be believed this is going to be...interesting.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The villain Tiberius was particularly gruesome.

I swear Lemuria Impacting his ass was heavenly bliss...disgusting piece of dessicated shit.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Having a change of pace here, so putting Rewrite on hold (Romeo writing style really put a strain on my brain...).

Instead, currently reading Yuzusoft latest eroge: Noble Works (yeah, quite late I know).
And so far, I have little to no complaint: a moege with a colorful cast, quirks and good laugh around, excellent production value etc.
One special mention though: Sena is bloody HOT and MOE, to the point it is criminal. I personally don't have any maid fetish whatsoever, but Sena is pushing so many buttons I almost had an heart attack on various occasions (and the number of galge character dealing me this effect can be counted with a single hand, so ).

Sena's route was quite heartwarming, and it is nice to see that Yuzusoft writers learned from their past works, and decide not to drag drama needlessly (I still have a very bad aftertaste with Natsuzora's Yuiko...).
The pace was definitely brisk without leaving out details nor actual interactions and characters development.

Spoiler for Sena's route:

I definitely liked how Sena's struggle was portrayed, without turning it into a lame "everything is solved magically" nor an elogy of drama oozing everywhere.
For instance, her insecurity regarding her feelings towards Takumi was about right: they did show how her feelings seemed to be mixed up with the ones she had for her father, without going on ridiculous lengths. This is even more evident with the hair pin incident: they could potentially make Sena mopping for god knows how long, but instead, she was quick to find out the trick and understood Takumi & co intention all along.
The former occurence also set in stone the core problem Sena had from the beginning: insecurity about her place where she belongs and how loneliness can gnaw her despite it is something you wouldn't expect at the first glance, due to her personality and initial situation.

I was however a bit surprised they didn't use the "best solution" in this route: I was honestly expecting Shuri to offer a job to Takumi as a butler (since he is back from hospital now) and that he can always be used as a double if situations were to arise.
Of course, the ending wasn't bad at all and tries not to be an easy compromise to the situation. However, considering how the Kanemoto were portrayed so far, especially Akari and Shuri, I was expecting this solution as a natural outcome (especially after the "wedding" celebration).

Regarding Sena's character... well, already stated above: damn hot and adorable (a pity she doesn't use the hair ornament Takumi gave her, which was weird if you ask me). It was always hilarious how her imagination was wild, to scary levels (Akari's route "special milk"... really now, Sena? ). Gogyou Nazuna really did an excellent job at voicing a very sweet girl without going on the braindead lengths.
Most definitely my favourite character here, and potentionally going to stay in my overall heroines top ranking.

But really, I was quite surprised there wasn't any main/sub characters that gritted my nerves. All of them have their quirks and own spark that are noteworthy (even the likes of Shinkai and Isumi ).

An excellent dose of sexy and moe fluff, along with hilarious situations and other havoc (Chiaki is really top tier, for good and -bad- reasons )

I'm starting Sena's route and she already wins second top place in my list of Yuzusoft girls....with only Sana from Tenshin Ranman surpassing her.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Instead, currently reading Yuzusoft latest eroge: Noble Works (yeah, quite late I know).
And so far, I have little to no complaint: a moege with a colorful cast, quirks and good laugh around, excellent production value etc.
One special mention though: Sena is bloody HOT and MOE, to the point it is criminal. I personally don't have any maid fetish whatsoever, but Sena is pushing so many buttons I almost had an heart attack on various occasions (and the number of galge character dealing me this effect can be counted with a single hand, so ).

I enjoyed reading your impressions of the game and Sena's route! I would say that this is definitely one of my favourite "moege" in the last little while, with a good blend of elements that should satisfy pretty much anyone. It's funny though... while I do recognize all the moe points about Sena and did like the route well enough (and I agree the way that it was handled was quite balanced), she wasn't actually my favourite character in the game. I'd actually have to go with Akari and Maya as my two favourite characters/routes; perhaps I just couldn't get over their cute and hilarious ignorance when it comes to simple romance? Anyway, add another vote for Noble Works as a game people should try as a decent choice within that genre. I agree that, while I liked Tenshin Ranman well enough, this game definitely shows improvement in nearly every area, and really makes me look forward to seeing what that group will come up with next. (And also who will get a route in the inevitable PSP port. I'm going to guess Makoto, but would be sort of scared if they went with Chiaki...)

[hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by Soviet

Reading Vermillion: Bind of Blood after having finished Muramasa (so gooood).
Vampires are always a nice theme and I like the protag and his hot partner. Soundtrack seems to be full of great tracks too.



Yeah I wouldn't bother with Demonbane, it's pretty bad. Wait for Hanachirasu and Sumaga instead, both are confirmed for an english release I think. The translation of Muramasa might be finished next year, keep an eye on that too because it's pretty much the best thing ever.

Kikokugai, Saya, Hanachirasu, and Sumaga. Even though the first three already have translations, I would love to own official english copies of them. Just take all of my money, Jast.

[Skyfall]

I happen to find myself in the same boat as Klash, that being putting Rewrite aside (the title doesn't really do much for me ... I guess Romeo's writing isn't to my liking, and the quite mediocre production values don't help) and going for Noble Works instead, like I have been planning to for a while now.

And all I can say is: I wish I had done so sooner. Only finished one route by now (that being Akari, so I guess can be considered the main one), and it has been nothing but a fine piece of quality entertainment. The art is very nice (as usual, Yuzusoft doesn't disappoint in this area), the music fits the themes and setting, and the highly active character sprites that change expressions/poses mid sentence, several times if need be, go a long way towards bringing the cast to life. And above all, the writing is highly enjoyable - from start to finish, I never found myself being bored or disinterested in what was happening.

The character interactions are entertaining, the jokes funny and don't really wear themselves out, and the whole main cast is thoroughly likable. I was sort of dreading that being a story about 'nobles' there would be some snobby brats to endure, and that not being the case is something I am very glad being wrong about. The cast is great and rub together nicely. All in all, a highly fun package that I find nothing negative to say about. In the end this is probably the strongest point of Noble Works as a whole - the absence of negatives that could otherwise spoil the experience. It was a quality ride from start to end.

Well, if you discount the sin that is Makoto not having a route of her own - what gives !? She grew on me very quickly with her outgoing and friendly personality, her interactions with Takumi (or most everyone really) are a bundle of fun and highly entertaining, and the girl certainly has a good head on her shoulders. It has been a while since a side character (which is almost a miss-label, considering she is probably the most prominent character in the school side of things) left such an impression on me. Besides, how can one not like a girl who doesn't overreact for being caught in her underwear by the male lead ? (Or would instigate the situation even, because hey - what's better than a male for a honest impression on the design ). Easily my favorite character around.

I ended up liking Akari a fair deal as well - at first I dreaded she would turn out to be a tsundere (and i hate those with the intensity of a thousand stars going supernova, or at least the most common modern application of the type), but she was anything but. The opposite, if anything, because she is refreshingly honest and straightforward about her feelings. The girl probably doesn't even know how to be dishonest, and pretty much wears her heart on her sleeve, irregardless if she is being happy or angered over something. Her ignorance over most things romance related was hilarious indeed, and a load of fun watching her try and overcome that ("research" ).

I expect Maya to have similar levels of awkwardness, and I find her character a fair deal to my liking as well, so quite looking towards her route as well. That's for later though, Shizuru is next on my list - being the least connected to "the gang" her screentime was rather abysmal (I guess that will be the case for all routes, save for hers), so I feel the need to rectify that to get a proper impression on her character. She seemed rather irritable at first, but then there were some scenes that made me rethink said impression. It seems most matters related to her granps (and probably the old man himself) rub her the wrong way, and since most of the interactions were related to him in one way or another, that may well be the reason for her less than stellar mood. Should be quite interesting as well.

Spoiler for A guess on Shizuru's roue:

Considering the granps probably wants to arrange a marriage between her and "Shuri" (at least that's the only reason I can think of why he specifically wanted to introduce the two), there are a lot of issues that can crop up, Takumi's true identity no less. Akari's father wasn't much of an obstacle when it came to Takumi's status since he genuinely cares for Akari's happiness first and foremost, but i get a feeling Shizuru's granps might turn out a good deal more materialistic.

Also seems like a chance where the story might tackle the issue of Takumi not being Shuri in regards to his friends at school - an issue that Akari's route skipped, sadly, so I hope to see it touched upon here, as it might be more of a problem for the romance than it ever was for Akari. As much as Akari's troubles were mostly internal or self-imposed (and thus easier to tackle, with a good helping of rabu rabu time and lots of pink fluff) I expect them to be external here, and thus somewhat more tricky.

Or I could be way off ... either way, it will be fun finding out.

All in all a great game and quality entertainment, wish I had tackled it sooner.

[Orophin]

Originally Posted by Hooves

I'm interested in Full Metal Daemon Muramasa being translated, although there are still other visual novels that translators tend to translate first and it might take Muramasa a long time until it eventually gets translated unless someone dedicated to it wants to translate it.

There's already an ongoing translation for Muramasa. Makoto, the translator, previously worked on Saya no Uta, Kikokugai, Hanachirasu and Demonbane, so I'd say the game's in pretty good hands. By the way, the translation's about 45% done right now, but since Makoto is currently translating Django for the official English release by JAST, there probably won't be much progress for a while.

[Mahou]

Since I have finished Fortune Arterial for roughly a month, allow me to give my impression with my very limited jp. comprehension.

Spoiler for FA - most routes:

First of all, I love(d) the CG and the drawing style of FA. It's very beautiful and the non-ero CGs look better as well . The music appeared quite fitting, especially Kuze's theme was quite good.
Now to the routes ->
Haruna: The classic childhood friend with a little "twist". Her route was very normal and the drama was veeery mild and mostly around her inner conflict of being allowed to love due to a common cliche of giving yourself the fault that the mother died because your illness (when she was about to visit her) and thus on-going conflict of "I don't think I should be allowed to love". Fortunately, the problem was resolved quite fast and happy end. Kanade's way of deciding of Kouhei was worth it or not was okay to a bit funny. Kanade makes them vow in a marriage-ish way to always be there for their partner and make eachother happy, etc.

Kanade: Look at Haruna and take the reverse scenario. That sums her part up. She wants to get the two together, but ends up with the love-feeling herself.

Kirihara Kuze: My lack of kanji was obvious here because I have hardly an idea what went on except of her search for her master. I think she started to like Kouhei because he supported her random disappearances. Her drama started when she found her master, but didn't recognized her. Master = pissed off and planned to trap her in a dream-like world as a pillar thingy. Again, power of love managed to break her free.

Erika: My most favorite one. Her interaction with Kouhei was lovely done and they make such a likeable couple. Her drama is the same as with the anime/manga with refusing to drink blood except for blood packs. Furthermore Kouhei has another "scent" which makes it the harder to resist. Later on dilemma #2 her mothers "order" to create a servant. By now the two are deeply in love and Kouhei offers his blood on his own accord, no go. The finale concludes with Erika being forced to turn him into one to save his life due to a mean trick by her mother. Kouhei doesn't mind it after the inital shock and is happy that they can spend their time together forever. Erika promises him to only drink his blood if she needs it and that they will be together forever, while Kouhei promises her that if she evers gives a command, he'll immediately breaks up with her because servants cannot refuse it and she totally detests this thought.

True End route: Similar to the anime, but: Kouhei + Erika end up together. My huuuge disdain with it is, that even after their first initmate encounter they didn't move to first name basis >_<. In opposition to Erika's route where it happened rather fast. True End explains the whole vampire business, a verbal showdown with Erika's mother vs. Kouhei + Erika, a revelation with Erika's brother and Shiro's brother and Erika being able to turn back human. As the "i"-point her mother works on being a better mother/family.

/continues to play Kourin no Machi
I'm finally in Chapter 2 after roughly 20 hours clocked (though I haven't played non-stop). It was quite funny how Riko was able to pwn the school test with 99 of 100 points and she thanks innerly a bird and a bug for their help (she asked them during the test) as she claims she can talk with animals + insects . Overall the cast seems quite okay with the usual genre-victims: strange cute girl, strong-willed but gentle childhood friend, ice queen exchange student "powerhouse", local rich tsundere (I think she's one) + upcoming student council president with a different personality when she wears her glasses .

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

I'm starting Sena's route and she already wins second top place in my list of Yuzusoft girls....with only Sana from Tenshin Ranman surpassing her.

If you barely started her route, yet react this way, I think she will grow on you -veryyyy- quickly

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I enjoyed reading your impressions of the game and Sena's route! I would say that this is definitely one of my favourite "moege" in the last little while, with a good blend of elements that should satisfy pretty much anyone. It's funny though... while I do recognize all the moe points about Sena and did like the route well enough (and I agree the way that it was handled was quite balanced), she wasn't actually my favourite character in the game. I'd actually have to go with Akari and Maya as my two favourite characters/routes; perhaps I just couldn't get over their cute and hilarious ignorance when it comes to simple romance?

Well, I always had a fond of Yuzusoft games ever since ExE, so long I don't except mind blowing drama or so (although Natsuzora's Chihaya's caught me offguard). They definitely have a knack at making moege and having a monopoly on Muririn and Kobuichi designs is a huge plus in my books (current avatar is the most destructive smile sample I believe ).

Anyway, done with Akari's route, and it was entertaining, although the "drama" was actually a bit on the downside, nothing exactly that major though:

Spoiler for Akari's route:

I was initially afraid that Akari would be too much on the "tsundere ojou-sama" tangent at the first glance, but I guess this title may suit Shizuru better instead.
Anyway, I must admit Akari's temper was fun to watch considering how people couldn't really give her a break with all the jabs and all (as expected Isumi is really Clannad Akio, but in a exteme way: kissing a boy will make you pregnant? Call me papa? Self insertion for arranged marriage candidate? Feign death? Boy, he is really dangerous )
Not as close as Sena's POWER LEVEL, Akari was indeed a huge bottle of moe as well, oozing pink around. I didn't expect her to be that selfish and self indulging, not like it would be a bother for Takumi I guess... I really can't see an Harem situation working (good lord no, it would be a complete war otherwise ).

Now as for the route itself, the pace was pretty much like Sena's: brisk without really dragging things needlessly.
However this time, I think there are little things that could have been improved: the inherent "issue" with Akari was well portrayed and motivated properly indeed. However, the crisis was a bit overdone for what it was: it would be indeed a disaster if Akari were to be engaged with someone else, but assuming Takumi -and- Isumi can't do a thing. Whilst Takumi was rendered powerless or so, Isumi was far from being dead. Assuming Takumi couldn't do a thing, I really doubt Isumi would be fooled and let Akari accepting the director's arranged marriage, especially that 1) he witnessed how she loves Takumi 2) that he didn't choose that candidate himself.
These 2 reasons are enough to conclude that Isumi would definitely not let things go this way, and it would immediately render that shady director powerless the very moment he wakes up and catch wind of this mess.

Therefore, the whole deal was a bit unbelievable: if that director was indeed trying to pull out a plan to seize the control of everything while hiding the fact he was doing some shady deal with dirty money, how come he made such oversight, as in: having Isumi clearly able to stop this farce?
I'm maybe missing something here, but so long Isumi can make a decision, it is game over for him anyway.

My second complain with Akari's route was that complete oversight with the matter involving Makoto & friends: I surely didn't forget that Takumi promised them to talk about a certain "important matter". I was expecting it as another potential "drama", which would bring to light how strong their friendship are, regardless their identity or status (which may also involve with Hinata due to her "commoner" origins, and potentially Maya and her obvious connection with Yakuza). Thus, color me disappointed that they pulled a huge 1 year time skip, with a very brief description that Shuri could regain his role perfectly... oh well...

Not completely satisfying in my books, but not to the point of being bad anyway.

Anyway, add another vote for Noble Works as a game people should try as a decent choice within that genre. I agree that, while I liked Tenshin Ranman well enough, this game definitely shows improvement in nearly every area, and really makes me look forward to seeing what that group will come up with next.

I read Tenshin Ranman a little bit (Aoi's route and half of Hime's), and I must say the major problem with Tenshin Ranman was its unbalanced pace at times, and also the fact the core premise (Haruki's bad luck curse) became quickly a background trivia instead of being a running backbone plot line (whilst Takumi's role is never omitted and lead to overarching issues and plot directions).
I did enjoy Tenshin Ranman though: I certainly appreciated a lot Aoi and her route, and the comedy antics were hilarious, although there wasn't really a "solid group" together, and I should probably resume it someday (at least finishing Hime and Sana...Ruri? Not so much...).

The most notable improvement with NW is probably the cohesion between characters interactions, along with the pace (common route and drama), while keeping their fluffy and comic formula intact.
I'm certainly looking forwards to their next title, although the themes are really different each time, so I wonder what they are going to do now.

(And also who will get a route in the inevitable PSP port. I'm going to guess Makoto, but would be sort of scared if they went with Chiaki...)

You think they will make a port? They only started with Tenshin Ranman, and I have no idea how the sales went for this port nor for NW so...
Whilst I can see a very happy guy with Makoto being added in the cast (which makes much more sense than that joke route for yasetsuna ), Chiaki route could be interesting... in a very very -very- odd way... (fujoshi stuff? S/M? The possible amount of fetish involving her might be too scary )

[Crimrui]

So like, anyone here a monster girl fan?

Spoiler for monster girl asking a question lol:

Alice is wondering if anyone played a Monmusu Quest?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

If you barely started her route, yet react this way, I think she will grow on you -veryyyy- quickly

Yeah....I have a soft spot for Kobuichi's moe characters. Especially since I reach Yuzu as a counterweight to my other heavier VNs.

[Klashikari]

I always have hard time to discern their styles, but I think Sena was designed by Muririn actually (as far as it goes, Kobuichi made the design of Shizuru and Maya among the main heroines).

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Crimson Cloud

So like, anyone here a monster girl fan?

Spoiler for monster girl asking a question lol:

Alice is wondering if anyone played a Monmusu Quest?

Good game, though some of the things that you have to go through to get CGs is kind of annoying.