Black Panther (MCU Film)

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

This is interesting!

YouTube

https://youtu.be/elp5mzQ6Geo

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It's also absolute bullshit shock jock "journalism."

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Eh, for me, both extremes are bad. Those who worship Black Panther movie for political reasons and accuse anyone who criticize the movie as racists are just as bad as the alt-right people who dismiss this movie due to actual racist reasons.

And yes, I've seen the Black Panther movie. I've just got back from watching it in my local cinema and my opinion is......I like it, but I don't love it. I like the Shakespearean story which is up there with the first Thor movie (yes, I like the first Thor movie). I like the setting. Some of the characters are cool and I like how the Wakandans talk Africans and English which is a fresh air from what we usually get. Acting are great all around and the movie is just as entertaining as Harry Potter flicks.

But, the movie lost some good points from me due to some lackluster practical fight-choreography, some poor CGI for 2018 standard especially for the climactic double-panther fight (it looks straight from Raimi's Spiderman movies more than a decade ago), plot holes, questionable character decisions and writing issues. This video more or less explains most of the technical problems of Black Panther (fair warning: Spoilers abound. The video is easier to understand if you already watched the movie):

YouTube

https://youtu.be/eT2D50_pgUU

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I may not entirely agree with all of his criticism above, but he brings out some good problematic points which partly also originated from the comic source material.

[Guido]

Just a piece of curiosity, is there any relation between the Black Panther comic (and film) with the real life Black Panther Party?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Guido

Just a piece of curiosity, is there any relation between the Black Panther comic (and film) with the real life Black Panther Party?

Didn't the comic predates the Party? Probably just a timely coincidence or one of the Party founders read the comics and used the name?

The film itself alluded to the Party by setting the Killmonger origin story in Oakland (the city where the Black Panther Party was active back then) where N'Jobu was operating in a Black Panter Party-ish activities.

[Galaxian]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Didn't the comic predates the Party? Probably just a timely coincidence or one of the Party founders read the comics and used the name?

The film itself alluded to the Party by setting the Killmonger origin story in Oakland (the city where the Black Panther Party was active back then) where N'Jobu was operating in a Black Panter Party-ish activities.

The party was founded in October of 1966. The first Black Panther comic book came out in 1977 while Black Panther's first solo story was in the magazine Jungle Action in 1972.

However, Black Panther's first appearance was in Fantastic 4 in July 1966. So, the character itself predates the party for about 3 months.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Fantastic art direction and costume design, great soundtrack, and quite possibly the most fucking badass women I've ever seen on film.

Special mention for Jordan's Killmonger. It's pretty obvious that MCU villains have been pretty one note and flat since forever, but Killmonger suggests a shift away from this. Hopefully this is a sign of more complex villains to come. This is also the very first time I actually felt bad for the villain in the end.

But they're still "like the hero, only more weaponized". Well, maybe a bit less so in Killmonger's case. More of a tie. But yes, Killmonger had motivations and stuff.

I can't help but be bothered by the fact that Wakanda, dreamland though it is, can't get away from that tribal thing. And ritual combat. Do decide the leader of the whole nation.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Galaxian

However, Black Panther's first appearance was in Fantastic 4 in July 1966. So, the character itself predates the party for about 3 months.

Ah, yes, that's what I mean. The Black Panther character in the comics predates the Party.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I can't help but be bothered by the fact that Wakanda, dreamland though it is, can't get away from that tribal thing. And ritual combat. Do decide the leader of the whole nation.

It is rather baffling for an advanced civilization to keep using such method to choose their leaders. They were more than lucky that this is the first time a crazy person like Killmonger claimed the throne after so long.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

It is rather baffling for an advanced civilization to keep using such method to choose their leaders. They were more than lucky that this is the first time a crazy person like Killmonger claimed the throne after so long.

I'm bothered not just because it's baffling, but because of the "they're black. No matter how otherwise advanced, of course they're going to behave like stone age barbarians" aspect. Though I suppose the medieval Asgardians aren't much better. I guess when it comes to wish fulfillment power fantasies, nobody wants a bureaucracy ruled by laws and civil discourse.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm bothered not just because it's baffling, but because of the "they're black. No matter how otherwise advanced, of course they're going to behave like stone age barbarians" aspect. Though I suppose the medieval Asgardians aren't much better. I guess when it comes to wish fulfillment power fantasies, nobody wants a bureaucracy ruled by laws and civil discourse.

Indeed. The argument can be both in-universe and artistic choice. In-universe, maybe Wakandans really put some traditions above all else, especially the combat ritual to choose their leader (since their gods are apparently real). Artistic-wise, maybe both the comic & the movie really want to show and use as much African culture and Shakespearean element as they can in the story since we all know how much people like Game of Thrones nowadays. Not realizing the impression such depiction gives to critical readers and audience.

[MeoTwister5]

Being traditionalist does not equate to being barbarians. It's obviously a very culturally central and important thing for Wakandans no matter what the outside world thinks. Who are we to judge? It's precisely that mindset from the rest of the world that made them decide to isolate themselves in the first place.

And the Vibranium of course.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Being traditionalist does not equate to being barbarians. It's obviously a very culturally central and important thing for Wakandans no matter what the outside world thinks. Who are we to judge? It's precisely that mindset from the rest of the world that made them decide to isolate themselves in the first place.

And the Vibranium of course.

I'm not really judging the Wakandans. I'm "judging" the writer. (Though that's really an issue of the original comic.)

I mean, imagine a really advanced White Guy civilization. Sure, you may end up with a medieval setting In Space, but you've also have a decent chance of getting some kind of democracy In Space, with politics based on the rule of law instead of fighting duels with primitive weapons.

But Stan Lee and Jack Kirby imagined a really advanced African civilization, and they ended up with stone age barbarians but with, you know, metal spears.

That's my problem right there.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Being traditionalist does not equate to being barbarians. It's obviously a very culturally central and important thing for Wakandans no matter what the outside world thinks. Who are we to judge? It's precisely that mindset from the rest of the world that made them decide to isolate themselves in the first place.

Eh, I only see it from the practical standpoint. What if someday the one who wins the ritual is a fool who only cares about fighting and waging war? Did the Wakandans ever consider that during the hundreds of years of their existence? Heck, even many traditional tribesmen in my country know to choose the wisest individuals as their leaders, not the strongest. If Wakandan King Candidates really need to be put against each other, why only have a physical duel? What about duel of intelligence and social skills? I mean, Wakanda is such a technologically-advanced place and its people must also be advanced too in their thinking. It should've been natural for wanting their leader to be smart, wise and actually care about the people.

[MeoTwister5]

Take note that Wakandans have an "us against them" mentality, always cautious under the assumption that the outside world is coming to take their Vibranium and technology away. Hence for them they always had to be suspicious of "the white man", and thus put a lot of (and obviously too much of) importance on combat strength.

This is why the movie works so well with Killmonger as its villain, taking to himself allies within the more discontent Wakandans those who wish to be more warlike. T'Challa himself realized that Wakanda did this to itself: by prioritizing strength and suspicion and even alienating its own children who had strayed from that established path, it just set itself up for civil war.

A warlike mentality begets war, and if you can't find it outside, you'll have it within.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Take note that Wakandans have an "us against them" mentality, always cautious under the assumption that the outside world is coming to take their Vibranium and technology away. Hence for them they always had to be suspicious of "the white man", and thus put a lot of (and obviously too much of) importance on combat strength.

This is why the movie works so well with Killmonger as its villain, taking to himself allies within the more discontent Wakandans those who wish to be more warlike. T'Challa himself realized that Wakanda did this to itself: by prioritizing strength and suspicion and even alienating its own children who had strayed from that established path, it just set itself up for civil war.

A warlike mentality begets war, and if you can't find it outside, you'll have it within.

So, all your comment above does not refute my point that Wakandan’s “Mortal Kombat”-method is problematic and flawed, especially for an advanced civilization such as them. In fact, the bolded line actually supports my point even more. And let me repeat this point again: why only have a physical duel? What about duel of intelligence and social skills?

I understand Wakandan's inclusivity problem and how T'Challa came with the (somewhat) solution at the end of the movie. I'm just wondering how such primitive "election"-method works well for Wakanda for hundreds of years without major glitches that resulted in civil wars. Moreover, as the video above describes, the concept of Wakanda itself already has many holes.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

This is pretty good:

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/238...bout-the-movie

[orion]

Originally Posted by Galaxian

The party was founded in October of 1966. The first Black Panther comic book came out in 1977 while Black Panther's first solo story was in the magazine Jungle Action in 1972.

However, Black Panther's first appearance was in Fantastic 4 in July 1966. So, the character itself predates the party for about 3 months.

But...

There was another movement with the black panther logo that predates the Black Panther character.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studen...m_Organization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_(comics)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

So, all your comment above does not refute my point that Wakandan’s “Mortal Kombat”-method is problematic and flawed, especially for an advanced civilization such as them. In fact, the bolded line actually supports my point even more. And let me repeat this point again: why only have a physical duel? What about duel of intelligence and social skills?

I understand Wakandan's inclusivity problem and how T'Challa came with the (somewhat) solution at the end of the movie. I'm just wondering how such primitive "election"-method works well for Wakanda for hundreds of years without major glitches that resulted in civil wars. Moreover, as the video above describes, the concept of Wakanda itself already has many holes.

I don't understand what are you questioning. Yes, the government system is problematic and flawed. So? It still worked this long. Every system of government is problematic and flawed, that doesn't mean the smart people wouldn't somehow getting it to work. It's all the same humans running it in the end. One of the most popular systems of government is the Monarchy, and its male heir preference makes zero sense. But that doesn't stop Kingdoms being the dominant way nations are run for the majority of human existence.

And of course there are civil wars. Wakanda fight each other all the time. It's just that we are seeing a relative period of peace with two generations of a popular dynasty. The film never denied that the tribes can act out of line.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I don't understand what are you questioning. Yes, the government system is problematic and flawed. So? It still worked this long.

That’s exactly what I’m wondering. If the method of leader-selection is that primitive, how can an advanced civilization continue in relative peace for hundreds of years? I know this is supposed to be comic book fantasy with glowing magical alien metal, but the unrealism of the politics is too baffling for me.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Every system of government is problematic and flawed, that doesn't mean the smart people wouldn't somehow getting it to work. It's all the same humans running it in the end. One of the most popular systems of government is the Monarchy, and its male heir preference makes zero sense. But that doesn't stop Kingdoms being the dominant way nations are run for the majority of human existence.

I don’t know about you but IMO, selecting a leader of a huge and advanced country via Mortal Kombat alone is just plain stupid. Wakanda being the most advanced country on Earth only makes the method a hundred times more retarded from the practical standpoint.

At least wth Monarchy, you know who’ll lead your country in the future and you can mold the heirs into good, capable and compassionate people when they’re still little. And they will be leaders unless something really really unexpected happen. With democracy, at least all the people will have a say in electing their leaders. Here in Wakanda? It’s almost random. For example, a future king can be legally overthrown by a brute who is very good in martial arts but nobody like him other than his own tribe and he doesn’t like anybody other than his tribesmen. What if the brute doesn’t give a shit in diplomacy and screw Wakanda for his tribe's gain? Have you seen the movie? This almost happen in the movie with M’Baku & J’Bari but alas, T’Challa has plot armor and M’Baku turned out to be more decent than the first impression that he gave to the audience. It all works because the plot conveniently favors T'Challa's party. Imagine if a few of those convenient factors went wrong.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And of course there are civil wars. Wakanda fight each other all the time. It's just that we are seeing a relative period of peace with two generations of a popular dynasty. The film never denied that the tribes can act out of line.

The movie never ever mentioned or implied civil wars after Wakanda is founded by forming an alliance between the tribes. What the movie shown is that the tribes were at constant wars with each other until their God(dess?) chose one of them as Black Panther and united the five tribes to form the Wakanda that we know. After that, the movie heavily implied that the Wakandans live in relative peace until the event of the movie, which is too convenient in my book.

[BetoJR]

Loved the movie. So did the family, even if some of the CGI could be improved (and the villains could have had better treatment in some areas, even if they’re stellar). All in all, a very worthwhile moviegoing experience, IMHO.