[Manga] Chapter 258 Discussion

[striderm]

In the end I'm hoping Chad can transform his whole body.

[Rahan]

I wonder if Urahara is crazy enough to send them in HM ! None of them know how to fight except the girl who does karate, but they will probably ask to help.

I could see them (well, at least Tatsuki) reach Chad's level (who honestly suck, always sucked and will always suck), but sending them alone (without Ichigo and Yoruichi) would be even more stupid than sending Chad in Soul Society. (who survived only because his opponent wanted so)

[Scep]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

On the same note

Grim : Junichi Suwabe

Spoiler for list:

Fuuma Monou in X/1999
Yoshiyuki Kojima in Chobits
Toshimaru Yoshida in Peacemaker Kurogane
Atobe Keigo in The Prince of Tennis
Michel/Great Michel in Demashita! Powerpuff Girls Z
Hirofumi Nonaka in DearS
Ren Maaka in Karin
Sting Oakley in Gundam Seed Destiny
Greed in Full Metal Alchemist
Seymour Guado in Final Fantasy X & Final Fantasy X-2(flashback)
Tseng in Last Order -Final Fantasy VII- & Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Tim in Transformers Galaxy force
Katana in Gad Guard
Koji Fujiyoshi in Great Teacher Onizuka
Archer in Fate/stay night (TV)
Friagne in Shakugan no Shana
Nakita Kuramitsu in Tenchi Muyo! OVA 3rd series
Alex Smith in Gravion Zwei
Otori Kyouya in Ouran High School Host Club drama CDs
Takakura Kyosuke in Nana (anime)
Omega Zero in Mega Man Zero 3 and Mega Man ZX.
Grimmjow Jaggerjack in Bleach Wii: Shiraha Kirameku Rinbukyoku
Grimmjow Jaggerjack in Bleach: Heat the Soul 4

Ulqi : Daisuke Namikawa ( Kami Sama Saiyuki Reload )

Spoiler for list:

Agatha Christie's Great Detectives Poirot and Marple (Constable Hearst, Chibo)
Arc the Lad (Elk)
Bakumatsu Kikansetsu Irohanihoheto (Akizuki Yōjirō)
BECK (Yukio Tanaka)
Beyblade G-Revolution (Hitoshi Kinomiya)
Black Lagoon (Rock)
Detective Conan (Shiro Ogata)
Dokkoida?! (Suzuo Sakurazaki/Dokkoida)
Full Metal Panic!: The Second Raid (Leonard Testarossa)
Gantz (Kei Kurono)
Gilgamesh (Tatsuya Madoka, Terumichi Madoka)
Hi no Tori (Phoenix) (Masato Yamanobe, Takeru)
Honey and Clover (Rokutarō)
Ikki Tousen (Toutaku Chuuei)
Kero Kero Chime (Aoi)
Kyo Kara Maoh! (Ryan)
Maburaho (Mitsuaki Nanba)
Naruto (Sumaru)
Okusama wa Joshikousei (Sonoda-sensei)
Onegai Twins! (Maiku Kamishiro)
Prince of Tennis (Chotaro Otori)
Ray the Animation (Koichi)
Saiunkoku Monogatari (Eigetsu To)
Saiyuki Reload (Kami-sama)
SD Gundam Force (Guneagle, Hogaremaru)
Utawarerumono (Benawi)
The Third (Iks)
Tsubasa Chronicle (Fay D. Flourite)
Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters (Ryota Kajiki)

Nice voice actor for Grimm IMO. For Ulqi however, it just sounds wrong. Maybe its just the characters that ive seen him play, but it dosent seem to fit ulqi's dark image.

[striderm]

Listening to Ulqi in the PSP game wasn't too bad, either I'm used to him or not enough I don't know which.

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by sceptileex;

Nice voice actor for Grimm IMO. For Ulqi however, it just sounds wrong. Maybe its just the characters that ive seen him play, but it dosent seem to fit ulqi's dark image.

Actually he did a very fine job potraying Kami Sama ( Saiyuki Reload ) . IMO Kamisama was the best Saiyuki Manga Villian like ever and 2nd best anime villian .

Yes now that I think more on lines of Saiyuki the Seiyu who potrayed Dr Ni Jianyi ( Seiyu : Houchu Ohtsuka ) would have a done a better job .

Spoiler for Dr Ni Jianyi/Kamisama ( Salty Dog ):

Dr Ni Jianyi



Kamisama

[hdx514]

Originally Posted by Rahan

I wonder if Urahara is crazy enough to send them in HM ! None of them know how to fight except the girl who does karate, but they will probably ask to help.

I could see them (well, at least Tatsuki) reach Chad's level (who honestly suck, always sucked and will always suck), but sending them alone (without Ichigo and Yoruichi) would be even more stupid than sending Chad in Soul Society. (who survived only because his opponent wanted so)

chad's around bankai renji's level now remember? if a rookie like chad sucks, what can you say about renji who's been practicing for half a century? yeah, chad's been like totally useless so far, and kubo and the majority of fans obviously don't love him as much as ichigo/ishida, but nevertheless he's got pretty amazing growth rate so you never know.

also, if tasuki & co. reaches the level of chad in S.S., they won't even be able to take care of garbage like d-roy. that's useless. if they manage to reach the level of chad now, and take on ex-espadas or whatever, their growth rate would be even faster than ichigo's, that's impossible.

[kagato3]

I'm not sure you can call anyone that is bankai level trash. Renji has shown an insanely fast growth rate for a Shinagami in 3 months he went from 6th seat of the tenth devision to being captian level (all be it a low teir captian) and this was before he went through an other month or so of heavy training with Chad designed to get him to bankai level. It's pretty clear that Shinigami do not even remotely have the same growth rates as the humans as if they did all the seated officers would be out of even Ichgo's league with thier decades of combat expertice.

As for Ichigo's friends being able to match the higher end enemies it's not out of the question. Orihime's powers make her perhaps the most powerfull fighter in the seires if she had the will power to back it up. Also remember that Chad and Orihime's powers were boosted/reinforced/granted by haveing been around Ichigo and Tatsuki is his oldest friend

[striderm]

I assume when we see Chad's fight his powers will be enlighted upon. I really hope we see Urahara explaining them this time.

[hdx514]

Originally Posted by kagato3

I'm not sure you can call anyone that is bankai level trash.

true for the S.S. arc. not true for the current arc where hybridization, not bankai represents the ultimate power. unreleased hirako appears to be quite a bit more powerful than bankai ichigo just by going shishio. and apparently, as far as the espadas are concerned bankai ichigo is pretty rubbish.

Renji has shown an insanely fast growth rate for a Shinagami in 3 months he went from 6th seat of the tenth devision to being captian level (all be it a low teir captian)

where's the evidence of this "insanely fast growth"? care to name a “low tier captain” whom renji fought evenly with? i’ve only seen captain showing him the uselessness of his bankai. care to name a decent shinigami who started off much stronger than renji but ended much weaker than him as your reference? i’ve only seen shinigami starting weaker than 1/5 renji ending up kicking his ass (if you didn't realize, ichigo has been "dead" for quite a while and is practically a shinigami just like the rest). promotion from 11th division to another doesn’t signify growth because shinigamis are ranked purely based on power WITHIN a division. 5th seat of 11th division was able to defeat a VC. for all i can see, renji went from VC level to still being VC level (with a bankai).

and this was before he went through an other month or so of heavy training with Chad designed to get him to bankai level.

hmm, as theyt say, it’s pretty damn clear that shinigami do not even remotely have the same growth rate as the humans so 1 month of training means shit for renji.

It's pretty clear that Shinigami do not even remotely have the same growth rates as the humans as if they did all the seated officers would be out of even Ichgo's league with thier decades of combat expertice.

i suppose in all them shounens out there, characters belonging to the same race as the hero would have growth rates similar to the hero.

As for Ichigo's friends being able to match the higher end enemies it's not out of the question. Orihime's powers make her perhaps the most powerfull fighter in the seires if she had the will power to back it up. Also remember that Chad and Orihime's powers were boosted/reinforced/granted by haveing been around Ichigo and Tatsuki is his oldest friend

wow, that’s some real logic there. “because a major character A has this god-defying stupid power, any secondary characters who’s been inactive for 260 chapters belonging to the same race as A could have it too.” well, let's see how that turns out

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by hdx514

true for the S.S. arc. not true for the current arc where hybridization, not bankai represents the ultimate power. unreleased hirako appears to be quite a bit more powerful than bankai ichigo just by going shishio. and apparently, as far as the espadas are concerned bankai ichigo is pretty rubbish.

You mean Espadas like Yammi who was about to get trashed ten ways to sunday by non vizard bankai Ichigo untill his hollow side started acting up or luppi who was nearly killed by the least experinced captian? So far it seems that only those of Grimjaws rank (6) or higher are likely able to laugh off a Bankai attack.

Originally Posted by hdx514

where's the evidence of this "insanely fast growth"? care to name a “low tier captain” whom renji fought evenly with? i’ve only seen captain showing him the uselessness of his bankai. care to name a decent shinigami who started off much stronger than renji but ended much weaker than him as your reference?

You do understand that just by haveing a Bankai makes Renji a captain level shinagami so he doesn't have to fight with anyone to be ranked so? As for a decent Shinigami That started off much stronger then him but has ended up weaker, how about Hisagi, he was so skilled he was seated with out haveing to take the placement tests he sure currently doesn't have a Bankai.

Originally Posted by hdx514

wow, that’s some real logic there. “because a major character A has this god-defying stupid power, any secondary characters who’s been inactive for 260 chapters belonging to the same race as A could have it too.” well, let's see how that turns out

You stated it was impossible for any of the humans that have not had their powers awakened to be able to match any of the enimies of the current arc. I'm just pointing out that it is not impossible by pointing out one of the weak secondery mian characters who has had no upgrades at all in her powers has the potential to take on almost anyone in the current arc. I will also point out that Chad has shown a higher power growth rate then Ichigo, in 1 month and 2 weeks Chad gained a Bankai equivlent while it took Ichigo 2 months and 3 days, so other characters can have faster growth rates then the hero.

[jianfish]

I just can't imagine how strong Chad will get. He's not a Shinigami or a Quincy, he's just a simple Human whose powers are really doubtful. He got no soul slayer or any Battle gear, not even Reiatsu, just Brute strength. Somehow, Brute strength don't fare too well in Animes.

Would be interesting to see how Chad turns out. I hope its not like in the SS arc where he gets all psyched up and starts running at a Taicho only to get pwn badly.

[hdx514]

Originally Posted by kagato3

You mean Espadas like Yammi who was about to get trashed ten ways to sunday by non vizard bankai Ichigo untill his hollow side started acting up or luppi who was nearly killed by the least experinced captian?

do you understand the term "average espada" or "main enemy of the arc"? have you seeing released yammi go against bankai captain in HM where he can actually "breathe"? why do you think ichigo went vaizard on an ex-espada? btw, the least experienced captain would have been killed by ruppi if it were a 1 vs 1 fight.

So far it seems that only those of Grimjaws rank (6) or higher are likely able to laugh off a Bankai attack.

this is exactly what i said, bankai can be laughed upon. espada 6 and above are still cannon bleach characters no?

You do understand that just by haveing a Bankai makes Renji a captain level shinagami so he doesn't have to fight with anyone to be ranked so?

when are renji fanboys going to realize that bankai =/= captain level, and shikai =/= under captain level? kenpachi's half-arsed shikai is captain level. aizen's shikai is above. renji's puny bankai is several years too early to be useful, kubo wanted to make that clear to people so he had byakuya make a good demonstration. find me another low tier captain whose bankai can be defeated by shikai byakuya, or anyone besides aizen/yamaji with zero injury before you make that claim.

As for a decent Shinigami That started off much stronger then him but has ended up weaker, how about Hisagi, he was so skilled he was seated with out haveing to take the placement tests he sure currently doesn't have a Bankai.

so you’ve seen them fight? have you actually seen renji easily defeat any VCs like ichigo did? how come renji wasn't known as a genius shinigami if he's so insane? you know there aren’t kido capable VCs out there that can trash renji’s bankai the same way baykuya trashed it? there's been 1 fight with his bankai at full power, and that's it, he got trashed easy.

You stated it was impossible for any of the humans that have not had their powers awakened to be able to match any of the enimies of the current arc. I'm just pointing out that it is not impossible by pointing out one of the weak secondery mian characters who has had no upgrades at all in her powers has the potential to take on almost anyone in the current arc.

nothing of is completely impossible. one cannot completely rule out the possibility of hanataro trashing aizen unless one is kubo himself. but common sense suggests that certain things have such low probabilities so if anything they're no more than wishful thinking of the fans.

orihime’s powers were awakened way back trying to save tatsuki and she has had plenty of demonstrations and upgrades since. she’s been known as a very proficient healer (although not god-violating until recently) for a long time. she joined ichigo since his first quest. she’s a top student behind only ishida, she made it onto the 3rd bleach cover and several captains have shown interest in her ability. can you say any of these for tatsuki? their importance to bleach aren't even on the same level. and just how many god violating powers do you expect kubo to give people huh?

unless the author decides to reveal, that all of them already had their powers for months and just did't want to show it, which would just be a cheap plot device.

i agree, it would make sense if they've been hiding it like isshin. but even with isshin there has been quite a few hints of his powers here and there. also in tatsuki's case kubo's shown us her inner thoughts and she certain didn't appear to be hiding any powers.

I will also point out that Chad has shown a higher power growth rate then Ichigo, in 1 month and 2 weeks Chad gained a Bankai equivlent while it took Ichigo 2 months and 3 days, so other characters can have faster growth rates then the hero.

yet more brilliant logic. A started from crap and reached aizen’s bankai level in 1 year. B started from crap and reached kenpachi’s bankai level in 6 months, and good old chad started from above regular 3rd seat and reached prince renji’s superb bankai in 1 month. now of course C has the fastest growth rate of them all. how stupid of aizen to concerntrate on ichigo but not chad or renji~
you know, d-roy had gained eh, arrancar-equivalent powers, so maybe he was as strong as an arrancarized vastorode~
yep, still the same thing as before: ichigo's shikai > renji bankai. or should i re-phrase it like this this: the hero of a shounen manga is on a completely different tier compared to someone he defeated many chapters back. sounds reasonable? if not then perhapds you should stop reading shounen

[Zu Ra]

Ichigo is the central chara in Bleach thats why he is going to demonstrate insane powerups and so will Aizen . Dismissing someone's ablities with a comparision to the main antagonist and protagonist is ludachris ...

Renji and Hanataro are the lamest charas in Bleach but they are still some notches cooler than Aizen . Aizen keeps on mumbling like a drunk hick speaking in metaphor so he level of lameness surpasses even Hanataro . Also everytime I see Aizen I remember a very dorky version of Clark Kent. Gin/Tosen/Zaera Polo ( least Homo-erotic behaviour towards Aizen among arrancars ) would be better off as the main antagonist in Bleach , Grim well his IQ level is lower than Hidan so he is out of the equation ,

Even Gin and Tosen's Bankai or Grim in relased form is canon fodder for Aizen's shikai . I dont see you saying that for them why only single out shinigami loyal to SS ? Secondly comparing Renji to Ichi is Insane or any chara from Bleach leaving Aizen and some top ranked espada like Ulqi . So using these two anomalies in Bleach to dismiss other chracters is just stupid and extremly biased . Also we all love Ichigo but not that way .

IMHO Tatsuki and Keigo will gain ablities like Chad and Hime but they will be put to use in the next arc . Strength of their ablities I dont know ?

[Sabaku Kyu]

The way I see it, Ishida took out a Tres Cifras with relative ease and therefore is capable of taking on a lower-tier Espada (no.7 or less) with some effort. Depending on how much of an effort Renji and Chad have to take to defeat their enemies (although it's questionable at this point whether Renji will face a Tres Cifras) they can be considered at this level also. I imagine Renji has gotten a good deal stronger, since his sparring with Chad probably allowed him to further master his bankai. Ichigo is a notch above them b/c of his vizard powers, but until he learns to retain his mask for several minutes at a time, he's not really at a totally different level yet.

[hdx514]

The way I see it, Ishida took out a Tres Cifras with relative ease and therefore is capable of taking on a lower-tier Espada (no.7 or less) with some effort. Depending on how much of an effort Renji and Chad have to take to defeat their enemies (although it's questionable at this point whether Renji will face a Tres Cifras) they can be considered at this level also. I imagine Renji has gotten a good deal stronger, since his sparring with Chad probably allowed him to further master his bankai. Ichigo is a notch above them b/c of his vizard powers, but until he learns to retain his mask for several minutes at a time, he's not really at a totally different level yet.

ishida is clearly the most skillful of the five. with the way he handled shikai mayuri while paralyzed it's not surprising whatsoever how the fight turned out. now that he's got a power up from his broken genius dad and a further power up from dense reishi in HM there is little doubt that he'll be able to stand against an espada. if all else fails he'll always have the ultimate form as last resort. there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to enter the mode now. considering the dense reishi of HM, his ultimate mode should be on the same level as vaizard ichigo.

but you do not compare either chad or renji to ishida. last time they went against captains, instead of 1 hit koing their bankai, they got easily pwned by shikai and below. plus renji is UNDER HYPNOSIS, and unlike ichigo, aizen has yet to show any interest in him, so he's out of the question

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

Ichigo is the central chara in Bleach thats why he is going to demonstrate insane powerups and so will Aizen . Dismissing someone's ablities with a comparision to the main antagonist and protagonist is ludachris ...

you can at least acknowledge the unparalleled growth rate and potential of ichigo as the shounen hero, and comparing ichigo and renji is insane, right? do you realize that is EXACTLY what i'm trying to say to those who believe that ichigo is NOT the central character and chad/other secondary character can have faster growth rate than ichigo and renji can have more powerful bankai than ichigo? who's the real ludicrous one? the plot and power level moves forwards with the protagonist, and because he progresses at an astonishing rate, it's inevitable that lots of his earlier powerhouse adversaries will be left behind or reduced to side-kicks, happens all the time in shounen. the likes of grimm or ulquiorra are only in the spotlight now because ichigo has yet to surpass their level. once he gets there, they'll be reduced to useless trash. people got to accept the harsh "reality" of shounen and live with it

Renji and Hanataro are the lamest charas in Bleach but they are still some notches cooler than Aizen.

"cool" is a matter of personal taste, like handsomeness. power, or for example, height, on the other hand, is not. you can label aizen as the lamest villian in shounen history and that has about as much credibility as me labling whoever as the worst whatever of all time. bleach is a shounen fighting manga. who cares about coolness, or looks, or personality, it's all about one's butt-kicing prowess

IMHO Tatsuki and Keigo will gain ablities like Chad and Hime but they will be put to use in the next arc . Strength of their ablities I dont know ?

and i'm saying there'll be no more god-violating powers coming from ichigo's classmates period. MARK MY WORDS

[Ichimaru]

What i dont like about this and the upcommin war

i rather see captains get involve in the war, instead of watchin ichigos scrubs fight against hybernized arrancars, the scrubs can fight whoever is not aizens team....all of a sudden the scrubs are captain lvl, thats just wrong.

They have so much character development that i find them very boring.

[Scep]

Sooner or later they'll jump in. The captains arent there just for fun, they'll probably play a role somewhere.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by hdx514

do you understand the term "average espada" or "main enemy of the arc"? have you seeing released yammi go against bankai captain in HM where he can actually "breathe"? why do you think ichigo went vaizard on an ex-espada? btw, the least experienced captain would have been killed by ruppi if it were a 1 vs 1 fight.

Yes I do and guess what the "main enemy" of this arc have not been the Espada, Azein has basicly sent them to thier rooms and said don't interfear, but the somewhat weaker Tres Cifras, many of whom seem to be as strong or stronger then Yammi.

Since your so keen on proof why don't you offer some? Whats your proof that Yammi is so invualrable to bankai's in HM?

Um, because he was trying to keep Nell from being killed durring the fight. The Ex-espada Dordonnie even say Ichigo could have taken him with out going vizzard, reread ch 254.

Originally Posted by hdx514

when are renji fanboys going to realize that bankai =/= captain level, and shikai =/= under captain level? kenpachi's half-arsed shikai is captain level. aizen's shikai is above. renji's puny bankai is several years too early to be useful, kubo wanted to make that clear to people so he had byakuya make a good demonstration. find me another low tier captain whose bankai can be defeated by shikai byakuya, or anyone besides aizen/yamaji with zero injury before you make that claim.

Renji is already being considered as a replacement for one of the empty captain's seats, he is captain level. It has been stated that just haveing a bankai boosts your power levels to captain levels. Ah yes the Renji/Byakuya fight, funny I seem to remember Renji still haveing his bankai active and him being more or less unharmed, all be it held by a spell, when Byakuya went bankai and then did massive damage to him before his bankai dissapeared and you convenintly leave out the part where Byakuya's kidou powers happen to be one of Renji's biggest weakness. Your agument here is like saying Tosen is stronger then Azein because he isn't effected by his powers.


How about you find me a low teir captian that Byakuya couldn't beat in that same way he beat Renji.

Originally Posted by hdx514

nothing of is completely impossible. one cannot completely rule out the possibility of hanataro trashing aizen unless one is kubo himself. but common sense suggests that certain things have such low probabilities so if anything they're no more than wishful thinking of the fans.

This is shounen, anyone on or added to the main combat team is going to be in about the same power class as the current villians other wise there is no story, it is either boring or the heroes are wiped out. The current combat team is Ichigo, Ishida, Renji, Chad, and Rukia. It's long been hinted that Ichigo friends will be joining the group and at least some of them will be on the main combat team which means that thier powers will be such that they are a match for the currnet villians.

Originally Posted by hdx514

orihime’s powers were awakened way back trying to save tatsuki and she has had plenty of demonstrations and upgrades since. she’s been known as a very proficient healer (although not god-violating until recently) for a long time. she joined ichigo since his first quest. she’s a top student behind only ishida, she made it onto the 3rd bleach cover and several captains have shown interest in her ability. can you say any of these for tatsuki? their importance to bleach aren't even on the same level. and just how many god violating powers do you expect kubo to give people huh?

Orihime's powers have remained the same since day one, she brought Tatsuki back from near death, reatached the gaints arm, reatached Chad's arm, reatached grimjaws arm (she seems to have gotten real good at arms). I will point out that since her powers have yet to manifest there is no reason that any captain should have taken note of her yet, and that she was the first one to sence the hollow that atacked both Orihime and herself. Will her powers be god violating, most likely not but they will but her in the same legue as all the other main gang.

Originally Posted by hdx514

i agree, it would make sense if they've been hiding it like isshin. but even with isshin there has been quite a few hints of his powers here and there. also in tatsuki's case kubo's shown us her inner thoughts and she certain didn't appear to be hiding any powers.

The very fact that she can see hollows and shinigami points to her haveing a decent power level and is the only unpowered human to ever survive an Espada's attack.

Originally Posted by hdx514

yet more brilliant logic. A started from crap and reached aizen’s bankai level in 1 year. B started from crap and reached kenpachi’s bankai level in 6 months, and good old chad started from above regular 3rd seat and reached prince renji’s superb bankai in 1 month. now of course C has the fastest growth rate of them all. how stupid of aizen to concerntrate on ichigo but not chad or renji~
you know, d-roy had gained eh, arrancar-equivalent powers, so maybe he was as strong as an arrancarized vastorode~
yep, still the same thing as before: ichigo's shikai > renji bankai. or should i re-phrase it like this this: the hero of a shounen manga is on a completely different tier compared to someone he defeated many chapters back. sounds reasonable? if not then perhapds you should stop reading shounen

Why is it any time anyone brings up any fact that you don't like you start pulling other peoples wired theroies out of the air and use them as a defence that everyone elses ideas are wrong or far fecthed? You stated that haveing a faster growth rate then Ichigo is impossable, it's not and at least 2 people have shown faster growth rates then Ichigo, Chad and Ishida when he regained his powers. First growth rate is diffrent the potental, people with high potental will have high growth rates but that doesn't mean that poeple with faster growth rates will have higher potentals, clearly no one in the seires has as much untaped potential as Ichigo.

As for the fact that Azein is commenting on Ichigo and not the others, have you ever thought it was because he is a Vizard something that Azien is very intrested in, resent chapters have shown that he never thought him a threat and is in fact disapointed in his progress. If it is the Vizard aspect of Ichigo that Azein is intrested in don't you think he would care less about a few humans and shinigami?

There is still no proof that Shikai Ichigo is stronger then Bankai Renji.

Only if the the said defeated person does not join the shounen hero's team, if he does he becomes only slighty weaker then the main hero at any given time.

[hdx514]

Yes I do and guess what the "main enemy" of this arc have not been the Espada, Azein has basicly sent them to thier rooms and said don't interfear, but the somewhat weaker Tres Cifras, many of whom seem to be as strong or stronger then Yammi.

many? really? how MANY ex-espadas have we seen? and just how these MANY ex-espadas all seem to be as strong as/stronger than yammi? the only thing we know is doldoni is worth shit compared to 1 arm unreleased grimmjow in human world, and espadas that weren't created with houguyoku have all becomes useless, so the most likely thing is they're all below yammi's level. aizen stole the hoguyoku for a reason. what now, you’re a tres cifras fan? an afro fan? kubo makes a fool of yammi but it's clear that he values him more than the ex-espadas

Whats your proof that Yammi is so invualrable to bankai's in HM?

i’m not the one passing a verdict on yammi’s powers, i don’t need proof, you on the otherhand implies his released form is no match against ichigo bankai, and you need proof to back it up

Renji is already being considered as a replacement for one of the empty captain's seats

by who, renji fanboys? renji himself thinks ikkaku is the only one among the VCs deserving the promotion, and the baldie’s had bankai for god knows how much longer than renji, yet look at how rubbish he is going agains a Gillian in human world.

It has been stated that just haveing a bankai boosts your power levels to captain levels.

by who, renji fanboys? what's been stated is: renji's years too early to use his bankai. but hey, the definition of "captain level" is pretty vague, and in the end it's not the class definition, but the actual power that matters, you can put ikkaku as higher-low tier captain, but as far as real battles go he's in rubbish gillian arrancar class, so whatever.

Ah yes the Renji/Byakuya fight, funny I seem to remember Renji still haveing his bankai active and him being more or less unharmed, all be it held by a spell, when Byakuya went bankai and then did massive damage to him before his bankai disappeared

funny i seem to remember ichigo having no bankai active and him being hit by byakuya’s bankai with no way of effective blocking which did uh, massively minor damage

and you convenintly leave out the part where Byakuya's kidou powers happen to be one of Renji's biggest weakness.

you mean your subjective opinion that renji is more prone to byakuya kidou than ichigo? no i most definitely did not, instead i gave my subjective analysis concluding that renji’s more immune to byakuya kidou than ichigo in that thread, which YOU conveniently ignored

Your agument here is like saying Tosen is stronger then Azein because he isn't effected by his powers.

no, my argument is like saying aizen pwns tousen because he's the main shounen villian that's it period. and yours is like a shiro fanboy saying hitsugaya is actually stronger than aizen and he only lost due to a inexperience/particular weakness blah blah.

How about you find me a low teir captian that Byakuya couldn't beat in that same way he beat Renji.

well if your definition of low tier captain = trash compared to byakuya who is in turn trash compared to vaizard ichigo with say 20 seconds, that’s fine by me

it's not and at least 2 people have shown faster growth rates then Ichigo, Chad and Ishida when he regained his powers.

let's make this clear. chad DOES NOT have faster growth rate than ichigo. they started roughly at the same time, and by the time ichigo reached bankai level, chad was about as strong as d-roy. by the time chad reached bankai renji level (which COMMON SENSE suggest is rubbish compared to ichigo bankai), ichigo's already a vaizard. and regaining powers is not growth. if ichigo recovers from a say completely paralyzing injury in 3 days, it doesn't mean he went from nothing to vaizard level in 3 days.

There is still no proof that Shikai Ichigo is stronger then Bankai Renji.

no definite proof, but there're many hints to ichigo's shikai prowess, such as shikai ichigo being on a similar level to ex-division 11 captain, and shikai ichigo clearly stronger than 5 shikai VCs, byakuya thinks he needs bankai to take down shikai ichigo etc, which i have listed in another thread already. on the other hand there is nothing to suggest bankai renji>shikai ichigo.

Only if the the said defeated person does not join the shounen hero's team, if he does he becomes only slighty weaker then the main hero at any given time.

oh really. i suppose chad as a member of the main team would be slightly below ichigo's level in S.S. i suppose rukia as a member of the main team would be slightly below bankai, or even vaizard ichigo now. you think it's boring? more than that. in S.S., chad and renji were useless. their contributions made zero difference. ichigo converted just about everyone he fights to his side, and he stopped the execution. ishida stopped the freak mayuri for good and now nemu fancies him. chad and renji on the other hand, did little more than demolish buildings.

no, sidekicks might stick around the hero, but it will take nothing less than a fanboy's wet dream to make they on the same tier. take another sword battling shounen, say kenshin. who's on the hero's level? those who DON'T normally stick around him. renji's considers ikkaku > himself. ikkaku is not a member of the main team, so he's crap, therefore renji's crap. there's no rule in shounen that says a sidekick's fight must make a difference. renji has yet to make a meaningful fight. it'll be up to ichigo to make a difference, if he can't do it, urahara/isshin/vaizards will be there to lend him a hand, not renji, please WAKE UP

[Scep]

whether renji is a suitable candidate to be a captain or not noone knows. All we know is that people who have bankai can be captains. can. The requirement for captaincy is bankai, not strength, so in that sense, yes, he is a likely candidate. The only reason he didnt become a captain and wanted ikkaku to be it is because of his own personal reasons. I personally dont believe that ikkaku is stronger than renji anway, given ikkaku's lacklustre performance against ichigo.