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View Poll Results: Who is the best girl?
Ogata Rizu 9 6.25%
Furuhashi Fumino 38 26.39%
Takemoto Uruka 16 11.11%
Kirisu Mafuyu (Sensei) 70 48.61%
Kominami Asumi (Senpai) 8 5.56%
Sekijou Sawako 2 1.39%
Umihara (Uruka's Friend -Short Hair-) 0 0%
Kawase (Uruka's Friend -Long Hair-) 0 0%
Others 1 0.69%
Voters: 144. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2020-12-24, 13:30   Link #3561
arkhangelsk
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OK, I've managed to get all 187 chapters in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Yami~ View Post
I still like Fumino but in alternate ending, senpai got the best, followed by sensei and Uruka
It is little bit sad that both first girl (Rizu and Fumino got introduced since 1st chapter) got less development over the span of 180+ chapters
I wouldn't go as far as to say that. Having read them, I can see why the adult ones are well liked, but I would say it's unfair to compare them with the other three. The three are endings where they decide the route and try to tie up loose ends, while Sensei and Sempai are nearly self-contained short stories after the main story's "Normal End". The author didn't have to think about how to keep any sense of balance, how to stretch the story until the sales start to drop and it's time to arrange an ending, only to justify in the shortest possible time why they can get together after all. This means a lot of "in-your-face" rapid presentation rather than pacing it out like in the main story and that may have created the feeling there was a lot of development.

Though I understand sempai's story is very popular, I actually liked the Sensei one better. First, there the vital "coincidences" are fewer.
Spoiler for Sempai route:

More importantly, perhaps because Sempai is a little less built up, I often got the sense scrolling through it that "Wouldn't any girl of the general archetype work here?" and Sensei's route is more "Yes, definitely Kirisu-sensei. Only Kirisu-sensei."
Spoiler for Sensei route:

I really think both could have done without those "last-minute flashbacks" though - their stories were doing a fine job of making their case using only Present Actions without them, especially Sensei's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator View Post
^^I'm not selling Fumino short, it's the reality. She unnecessarily decided to meddle in the love lives of their friends as some sort of love master, completely neglecting her own feelings in the process. She played herself spectacularly.
Look, I am aware of Fumino's weakness in this game and that this kind of behavior isn't everyone's cup of tea. But just remember that many interpret this positively rather than negatively.

Quote:
How convenient that Fumino's arc was the only one that got adapted just beause it was the first one that happened.
Fumino's arc is not only the first but it was the best and most fit-for-purpose. It actually provided a plausible bidirectional bonding in the Couples axis.

I also like sensei's arc which came next but both it and the sempai arc are more unilateral bonding (girl to boy) and the vector is off - yes, their characterization has deepened and I can see the Relationship value increase, but that's not exactly the same as the Coupling value increasing. By the time we get to Rize's arc, it's more like Fumino and Yuuga solving her problem, not exactly a Romance Building solution. Of course, that's perfectly OK if the three are not really in the running.

And of course poor Uruka didn't even get an arc at all. She does get to carry Nariyuki to the Test Center, and the author used her very different exam to give her a chance to make a nice conclusion, but overall she is still very under-prepared for someone who the author is about to push to be the winner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Edit: now that I think I bieve impression anime was Fumino centered and left some Uruka stuff out (correct me if I remember it wrong). Maybe that's why @arkhangelsk got confused.
Having read all the chapters ... everyone had some stuff skipped, not just Uruka. Besides, a lot of Uruka stuff is pretty low value and don't develop her character or build her chances very much.
I'll have to say the anime took a very representative and fair sample because having read every chapter in the comic now, my impressions didn't alter...

Except that I'm actually less happy with an Uruka-ending than before I read the comic. You see, if you don't know, you guess. And I guessed that somewhere in the 50 (counting from the end of Fumino's Arc) to 70 (counting from the end of the Festival) chapters the author would substantiate his decision.

He did not. And based on how he wrote Uruka's ending he knew it.

Uruka's ending was (until the new 6/5) the primary ending. Even if there are other endings, the primary ending should be the one that the author sincerely feels is the best substantiated.
Sometimes the primary ending is also chosen based on what's the most popular, but Fumino is more popular than Uruka, to say nothing of Kiritsu-sensei, so that isn't a thing here.

A well substantiated ending should not need such things as a last minute flashback of an entire pre-story plotline to push its thesis. Uruka should have been developed up to maximum Win potential before she confesses and before the book containing her ending. Even if she isn't really ready, the smarter path (within sticking with Uruka) is to just pretend she is, rather than do something that highlights the problem. A last minute tack on looks exactly like what it is.

How can I buy into an ending that even the author doesn't have confidence in?

And really, that's not Uruka's fault. I really think she's more competitive than the author makes her. But that's what he put out. In my view, the most angry fans should actually be Uruka fans.
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Old 2020-12-24, 15:06   Link #3562
Tenzen12
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Anime was Fumino centered, while manga was Uruka centered. What's more Fumino arcs had never lasting consequences and her route is one of two making least sense as nowhere in main story were any hints of Yuiga having any feelings for her.

I can understand you want Fumino win, but it's simply not supported by writing. Personally I came to like both Mafuyu and Sekijou slightly more then Uruka, but marmaid is for better or worse main heroine of common route.
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Old 2020-12-24, 15:39   Link #3563
Lex79
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Quote:
while Sensei and Sempai are nearly self-contained short stories after the main story's "Normal End"
Yeah, I liked both arcs but it's true that they feel a bit disconnected from the common route, especially senpai that even had the setting changed.
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Old 2020-12-24, 16:28   Link #3564
arkhangelsk
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^^ If the anime is "Fumino-centric", then why am I less enthusiastic about an Uruka-ending after reading the supposedly "Uruka-centric" manga?

For an easy one, he took the special effort to remember a bunch of stars for Fumino, something distinctly unrelated to study and its very far from clear if he'll ever use the knowledge. IMO, it's more like their Couple Points as of Chapter 90 reached the maximum without starting to uncontrollably snowball into Route Lock and that's why you don't see further consequences - if you want to see the snowballing, see Route 3/5.

As for the support within writing, based on the author's own endings, he had sufficient confidence in what he had already written for Fumino he didn't feel compelled to add a last minute flashback. Fumino didn't suddenly start having a "first meeting" with Yuuga when she was 7 or something. The same was not true for Uruka's route despite it being the primary route.

That's before whose win I prefer, rather it's about the quality of writing behind the chosen win.

And you liked a side character over Uruka? Oh, poor Uruka!

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2020-12-24 at 16:31. Reason: Add reference marks
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Old 2020-12-24, 16:40   Link #3565
Tenzen12
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Whether you are uenthusiastic about Uruka ending has nothing about it being authentic or not. Talentless Nana is pretty well written, but I dropped it because it wasn't my thing. Issue is whether you are able admit your liking something is different from being able aknowledge it. "I wasn't enthusiastic about thing" is literaly opposite of reasonable argument. And don't ask others why you feel how you feel.

Also if you didn't remind me about Yuiga having to learn about stars I wouldn't even known it ever happen, because it's importance lasted only until end of her arc. This was Fumino major problem she never had any lasting consequence on main story. What happened in her arcs staid in her arcs. Very peak of her relationship was when she was providing Yuiga with counceling, but that didn't last long either and after that there was nothing.
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Old 2020-12-24, 23:04   Link #3566
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Whether you are uenthusiastic about Uruka ending has nothing about it being authentic or not.
What do you mean by "authentic"? Do you mean canon? If so, I accepted it. Though I'm just as happy to accept the 6/5 canon and relegate it to being Uruka's dream

Do you mean something like my "well-substantiated"? Well, I've already given my reasons as to why I think it's not. Maybe you should give some.

Quote:
Also if you didn't remind me about Yuiga having to learn about stars I wouldn't even known it ever happen, because it's importance lasted only until end of her arc. This was Fumino major problem she never had any lasting consequence on main story. What happened in her arcs staid in her arcs. Very peak of her relationship was when she was providing Yuiga with counceling, but that didn't last long either and after that there was nothing.
Thank you for explaining the mentality of an Uruka-supporter (at least within the three) to me. First, it is the nature of this kind of comic that if an event isn't immediately "used", things return to apparent relative normalcy and the event is kept "stored" until next activated or a route is confirmed. For example, Uruka kissed Yuiga in 90 but they returned to relative normalcy pretty quickly. Does that mean the kiss has "no lasting consequences"?

If Fumino's sections really stayed fully within themselves, then Yuiga wouldn't even notice Uruka is a girl because Fumino literally had to tell him that in Chapter 19 (oh, I'm sure he notices she wears a skirt, but that's not the same thing). Ever since he saw Uruka in an entirely different way - all the redness on his face starts there. And Uruka would probably have stalled because of how much advice Fumino gives her over the series. Without Fumino the whole thing might have ended with Yuuga thinking of Uruka as an "osananajimi", not even a "girl".

Or maybe you mean Fumino's feelings. Well, in that case 85-89 chains through a bunch of minor events (she had her major, so what can there be left but minors but there are still some very nice ones like 114) until it reaches 136. It is also preceded by a chain moving through such chapters as 58, and all the way back to 5. At that point, she has the Change State needed to proceed. The author just told her to hold it so Uruka can take her shot in 141. That's not the same as there was no identifiable chain.

Or maybe you meant Yuiga's feelings. Well, gee, the two have already slept together holding each others hands. I don't think little things faze them anymore. If you are already at Level 3, you are comfortable with level 2 things. Not to mention the two are not exactly the huggy, kissy type.

If anything, the fact Yuiga and Uruka are constantly blushing around each other is not because they have continuity or "lasting consequences" while others don't, but because their events are generally low-quality and they are stagnating at Level 2. Without Fumino, they would forever be stuck at Level 1.
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Old 2020-12-25, 16:26   Link #3567
WingedAccelerator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex79 View Post
Actually, at least in my eyes, Fumino bonding with Nariyuki during the course of the series was even better, and their mutual confession at the end of her route was thee perfect culmination.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it.

Peak bonding is what happened between Ryuji and Taiga, but we can't have that here, so we have to look further.

One of the problems Tsutsui did is introducing a character with almost if not all of their key elements. Pretty much the heroines suffer from this. You learn what they are about in their first 2-3 chapters, then there is hardly anything new to tell or learn about. Bonding requires personal information sharing between each other.

Thus, Fumino faces the first hurdle. It's not about her, but others. She declared herself as a support, a big sister to Nariyuki, so majority of their talks are about what issue Nariyuki faces with another girl. Couples still can be formed this way, but stucking in the support-zone is more likely. I would even argue her romantic attraction also came from others putting the idea in her head, the Ibara Club to be specific. Just because they saw Fumino with Nariyuki, they put the shipper goggles on and started pestering Fumino about "his boyfriend".

The second hurdle is the lack of mutuality. Like I said, Fumino herself put on the support role, big sister role. She artificially became the mediator, instead of Nariyuki going for advice to specifically her, because he thinks she is a good listener or anything like that. I don't want to put it this way, but she was desperate for his attention. She forced her wisdom on Nariyuki, instead of a natural bond forming between the two, where Nariyuki really started to trust and rely on her guidance by creating opportunities to listen to Fumino. Essentially, Fumino butted in on anyone's business, instead of caring about herself first and foremost. She also knew Nariyuki was fake dating Senpai unlike the others, but did she gain anything by making a fuss and learn this information? No.

A good bonding example is what happened when Nariyuki sneaked in with Uruka to their middle school. Firstly, Nariyuki overstudied and ditched cram school just to watch Uruka's swimming race, despite Uruka saying she doesn't want them to come. Already a Nariyuki action, which no one forced him to do. Then he also revealed how his father passed away and how Uruka is a great source of willpower and inspiration for him. Uruka also ended up saying nice things to him and from that point onwards, earned being called by her given name. Fumino never left Furuhashi for Nariyuki until the last 2 pages of her route. Another good bonding example would be Chapter 105 for the two.

A bad bonding example is Chapter 39. Completely artificial situation, where neither of the characters wanted to do anything with the other, but they missed the train, had to catch lost kids, and of course Fumino was also a dork, who stargazed for hours, so they had to stay in a hotel together. Even the stargazing is an information, which we already knew about her. Another bad bonding example would be the Fumino arc. Fumino's father is unnecessarily an asshole just for the laptop copout. But before that he actually said that if Fumino's doesn't obey his wishes when it comes to her studies, she can move out and do what she want, he won't pay for her tuition. So of course, Nariyuki shelters her. Then she becomes desperate and tries to earn waifu points, cooks, cleans, enters the freaking bath to wash his back. Everything reeks of being forced. Her biggest nail in the coffin was still her love realization chapter, when Nariyuki took their reminiscencing quite unfazed, unlike her, who still held back a confession. Most of their bonding moments were wacky harem hijinks.

Sorry for the long rambling.
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Old 2020-12-25, 18:46   Link #3568
Lex79
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The respect is mutual, of course, but I still feel you are too harsh on Fumino. You make her sound like she is an annoying meddlesome like Uzaki while that's not clearly the case.
I don't see anything particularly bad in putting two characters in a forced situation. It's simply a plot device to develop the characters by putting them outside of their comfort zone. Or, sometimes, to make us laugh at them. I also don't understand the remark about Fumino's father being unnecessarily an asshole. That's her backstory, could have author have made a different choice? Yes, but that could be said about almost everything in the manga.
In the end, I guess we simply like different things.
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Old 2020-12-25, 18:53   Link #3569
Tenzen12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What do you mean by "authentic"? Do you mean canon? If so, I accepted it. Though I'm just as happy to accept the 6/5 canon and relegate it to being Uruka's dream

Do you mean something like my "well-substantiated"? Well, I've already given my reasons as to why I think it's not. Maybe you should give some.



Thank you for explaining the mentality of an Uruka-supporter (at least within the three) to me. First, it is the nature of this kind of comic that if an event isn't immediately "used", things return to apparent relative normalcy and the event is kept "stored" until next activated or a route is confirmed. For example, Uruka kissed Yuiga in 90 but they returned to relative normalcy pretty quickly. Does that mean the kiss has "no lasting consequences"?

If Fumino's sections really stayed fully within themselves, then Yuiga wouldn't even notice Uruka is a girl because Fumino literally had to tell him that in Chapter 19 (oh, I'm sure he notices she wears a skirt, but that's not the same thing). Ever since he saw Uruka in an entirely different way - all the redness on his face starts there. And Uruka would probably have stalled because of how much advice Fumino gives her over the series. Without Fumino the whole thing might have ended with Yuuga thinking of Uruka as an "osananajimi", not even a "girl".

Or maybe you mean Fumino's feelings. Well, in that case 85-89 chains through a bunch of minor events (she had her major, so what can there be left but minors but there are still some very nice ones like 114) until it reaches 136. It is also preceded by a chain moving through such chapters as 58, and all the way back to 5. At that point, she has the Change State needed to proceed. The author just told her to hold it so Uruka can take her shot in 141. That's not the same as there was no identifiable chain.

Or maybe you meant Yuiga's feelings. Well, gee, the two have already slept together holding each others hands. I don't think little things faze them anymore. If you are already at Level 3, you are comfortable with level 2 things. Not to mention the two are not exactly the huggy, kissy type.

If anything, the fact Yuiga and Uruka are constantly blushing around each other is not because they have continuity or "lasting consequences" while others don't, but because their events are generally low-quality and they are stagnating at Level 2. Without Fumino, they would forever be stuck at Level 1.
There is difference between "immidetely used" and "never used". In this case factually it's later. It never came again. Well, you are right it's common that things return to normal after end of arc, but that didn't actually happened with Uruka (She doesn't even have own self-contained arcs like others. All her events either happen during main story or during other girls arcs). Her events left lasting consequences. Their relationship prior main story is what allowed him became hard worker he is now. Possibility of her being in relationship with someone else made him jealous for very long time and in matter of fact it also lead to that she was only one he ever considered as love interest in common route. It was also her advice pushed him to choose teacher career.

Fumino events made no impact on Yuiga life (well aside of her advice helped him improve his relationship with Uruka early in story). They all led to Fumino falling for him, but never other way around. Fumino barely better then Rizu who got some last minute development and loose completely to Mafuyu.
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Old 2020-12-25, 20:25   Link #3570
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
All her events either happen during main story or during other girls arcs).
First, there's barely a thing as "main story" in Bokuben. It's primary problem (getting those three dolts to actually learn something in their weak subjects) was solved by volume 2 when they had a halfway-along-the-term test and they actually got above the average. Then they started going to juku, which means they have reached the point they can start actually learning something from conventional education and without Nariyuki holding their hand all the time. By that point, the rest is fine-tuning - the crisis is over.

What there are are a large bunch of character events with all the characters. Uruka had her turns, too.

Quote:
Her events left lasting consequences. Their relationship prior main story is what allowed him became hard worker he is now.
Do you mean that section in Chapter 43 when Yuiga claimed he saw a poster of Uruka and that motivated him? That's more a fan mindset, not even an acquaintance mindset.
From the available Uruka flashbacks, you won't believe MiddleSchool!Uruka and MiddleSchool!Yuiga are even so much as friends with her sneaking peaks of him down the hallway. Wow, you can just see the romance meter increase (sarcasm), especially as after Uruka "accidentally" confessed to Nariyuki, he just basically cooly tells her to do it again, without using his name. And she pushes him (a non-swimmer) into the water and threatens to let him drown if he doesn't call her Uruka again. I'll be shocked if that didn't wind up as a Demerit.

Or do you mean the last minute insert in Uruka's ending which is basically the author admitting he hadn't written much that would substantiate Yuiga doing so? Uruka-fans may insist the combined scraps in Uruka's units give her enough points, but apparently even the author disagrees

Quote:
Possibility of her being in relationship with someone else made him jealous for very long time and in matter of fact it also lead to that she was only one he ever considered as love interest in common route.
He minded a little - but I think he would have minded a little if he suspected any of the three had a relationship. And while I do remember some Uruka segments where he casually proposed that he might be the boyfriend, he wasn't exactly unplussed when Uruka just rebuffed him. If we must say things in such terms "No permanent consequences"

Quote:
It was also her advice pushed him to choose teacher career.
Because that really exceeded what friends can do to each other. Completely platonic friends. By the way, it'll help if you name specific chapters for examples - it really helps narrow down the search.

Quote:
Fumino events made no impact on Yuiga life (well aside of her advice helped him improve his relationship with Uruka early in story). They all led to Fumino falling for him, but never other way around. Fumino barely better then Rizu who got some last minute development and loose completely to Mafuyu.
Ah, so Fumino does make some impact on Yuiga's life. I'll deal with Fumino when I take a poke at WingedAccelerator's post, but while Mafuyu's story was very charming, I honestly thought its vector is a bit off for couple building (a problem that finally got solved in Kirisu's ending). As for Rizu, while that's a last minute development, if anything the whole thing is more Fumino & Yuiga helping her (wow, this is really going to advance the romance).

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2020-12-26 at 04:16. Reason: Preparation to transfer Acceleration's answer down
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Old 2020-12-26, 02:56   Link #3571
Tenzen12
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At this point only thing I can tell you is to read whole thing again and try filter your waifu bias.

Also learn how to write conscise posts. Walls text make even good arguments look bad and it's even worse if they don't make lot of sense.

Bailing out, because this looks like pain in ass.
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Old 2020-12-26, 04:35   Link #3572
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Also learn how to write conscise posts. Walls text make even good arguments look bad and it's even worse if they don't make lot of sense.
458 words of substantiated replies for 185 words of vague accusations seem proportionate.
=
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator View Post
The second hurdle is the lack of mutuality. Like I said, Fumino herself put on the support role, big sister role. She artificially became the mediator, instead of Nariyuki going for advice to specifically her, because he thinks she is a good listener or anything like that.
I refer you to Chapter 19, front. Note who is taking the initiative and who is responding.

Quote:
...Firstly, Nariyuki overstudied and ditched cram school just to watch Uruka's swimming race...
OK, anyone significant you know is going to a championship. You won't take a day off cram school?

For other points, done in Tenzen12 reply.

Quote:
Another good bonding example would be Chapter 105 for the two.
The critical part of it is really of a platonic friend level. The cooking well, that's how Uruka gets her points, and the middle was a gag. I won't say it's not worth anything (Fumino-fans have enough good sections they don't feel the need to denigrate other people's moments), but if these are examples of Uruka's best it just goes to show the problem of properly substantiating Uruka's route. It's not that she has nothing, but the others are just too much better.

Quote:
A bad bonding example is Chapter 39. Completely artificial situation, where neither of the characters wanted to do anything with the other, but they missed the train, had to catch lost kids, and of course Fumino was also a dork, who stargazed for hours, so they had to stay in a hotel together.
Let me give you an alternate point of view. First, both Nariyuki and Fumino actually spent most of their respective nights helping people - Fumino by giving Uruka a chance while Nariyuki ends up meeting and helping all the girls because well rom-com and balance. I think we have all lost track of time doing things we like, so it's really kind of cruel to call someone a dork instead of interpreting it as how much Fumino likes the stars - she's not pretending to watch stars just so she is out of Uruka's way.
I'll also point out they both would have made the train if not for seeing lost kids, who both prioritized helping over getting home despite the fact they don't know the kids at all. This shows that both of them are actually very similar, and thus compatible people.
So we have the hotel. Yes, there's the circumstance and all, but the fact both are willing to do it at all shows how comfortable they are around each other, such that boy and girl sleeping together (this is Japan, not America) is only a slight stretch rather than something utterly unthinkable. The two end up having a pretty romantic moment under the stars and somewhere in the night, their subconsciousness propelled them to close the gap to each other.

Quote:
Even the stargazing is an information, which we already knew about her.
Most people call this "further development" of things established in the starting portion, which in the mid to end sectors is generally considered superior to things pulled out without previous references.

Quote:
Another bad bonding example would be the Fumino arc. Fumino's father is unnecessarily an asshole just for the laptop copout.
First, the idea that Fumino's father is an asshole is established all the way in frigging Chapter 5 of the First Volume, where we learn he's so strict Fumino has mild PTSD causing her to be un-necessarily nervous dealing with pushy men. This is expanding on that detail.

As for the so-called laptop copout, first, it is completely consistent with the themes of the story, that people can overcome their lack of talent (or maybe "lack of talent" is just not having the right kickstarter like a special motivation or a teacher that can teach you in a way that gets you off the concrete). From a realistic perspective of genetics, it's pretty low probability that Fumino can end up so bad in math if her mother is a math genius while her father is also a mathematician (which will still make him excellent in math compared to the regular population) - so the idea that one of them isn't works on this level as well. The reveal annihilates the father's basis for objections. It's touching, warm and funny.

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So of course, Nariyuki shelters her.
Think about what it means for a boy to shelter a girl, and for the girl to easily accept, especially since again we are not in America. It's not even like he has to. Uruka or Rizu would probably agree, and he already knows there's an Ibara-club that would likely feel honored to take the job. But extending from Chapter 39, they are now comfortable enough around each other to do this.

Quote:
Then she becomes desperate and tries to earn waifu points, cooks, cleans, enters the freaking bath to wash his back. Everything reeks of being forced.
Just because they are closer to each other than Uruka has ever been doesn't mean it is forced, you know. If anything, the fact the last can even happen is, again, a sign of how intimately comfortable the two are with each other.

Quote:
Fumino never left Furuhashi for Nariyuki until the last 2 pages of her route ... Her biggest nail in the coffin was still her love realization chapter, when Nariyuki took their reminiscencing quite unfazed, unlike her, who still held back a confession.
This's really one point. My Watsonian answer would be that the two are really so comfortable with each other that they will easily do things worthy of a mature couple, without even thinking too much about being in love, while Uruka on Nariyuki always have them very conscious so are constantly red. The red is a sign of discomfort, that eventually disappear when couples are truly comfortable with the other.

The Doylist perspective is that by that point the author is trying to justify an Uruka ending no matter what. Unfortunately, he can assign zero points to even the best things he wrote, but it's harder to actually build a case for Uruka with only 14 chapters to go. Which led to among other things the "last-minute" flashback.
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Old 2020-12-28, 04:11   Link #3573
WingedAccelerator
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Originally Posted by Lex79 View Post
The respect is mutual, of course, but I still feel you are too harsh on Fumino. You make her sound like she is an annoying meddlesome like Uzaki while that's not clearly the case.
I don't see anything particularly bad in putting two characters in a forced situation. It's simply a plot device to develop the characters by putting them outside of their comfort zone. Or, sometimes, to make us laugh at them. I also don't understand the remark about Fumino's father being unnecessarily an asshole. That's her backstory, could have author have made a different choice? Yes, but that could be said about almost everything in the manga.
In the end, I guess we simply like different things.
When we didn't know about the routes, the game was about explaining why Uruka made a lot of sense and the hints were there all along. Heck, even with the routes, Uruka's side lasts for 150 chapters. Plenty of time to get the picture. Of course, some people can't seem to accept that you have to view Uruka as the winner, the superior choice in this case, so you carefully have to look for how she and Nariyuki reacted to each other during specific events. In this regard, forced harem hijinks should be inferior to conscious and deliberate actions, thoughts. I had debates in the past, where people really wanted to push the idea that Nariyuki straight up calling Uruka beautiful equals the same as him blushing after boob pressed by Rizu or Sensei. That Nariyuki on his own complimenting a girl is the same as blushing because of forced fanservice, and that he has no preference.

Fumino's father was an asshole, yes, but I meant the specific case during the Fumino arc. He straight up kicked or implied to kick his daughter out of the house just becase she doesn't want to obey him and give up on science. Considering how easily he changed his behavior after the laptop copout, it was a forced scenario and even they made a scene in front of the cast just for Nariyuki to shelter Fumino. Which again is heavily questionable, because Fumino decided to be quiet about this, instead of doing the reasonable thing, decline the offer, and ask Uruka, Rizu or one of the Ibara girls.
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Old 2020-12-28, 07:39   Link #3574
Lex79
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We can make as much speculations as we want about what lead this series to have multiple endings, but I don't see thee reason I have to accept Uruka as the canonical winner if the author says otherwise. The best I can say is that if the alternate endings are a late addition to the story then Uruka was the one initially envisioned to be the end girl, but things turned out differently. If you go by my past posts here, I strongly suspected she might win after the Valentine arc and was almost convinced after watching the anime ending, so I wasn't desperately clinging to my ship. Even in that case, though, I have no reason to say she is the superior choice when I enjoy another girl more and I don't see an overwhelming compelling reason for Uruka to be The One. I could say that the story pointed in her direction (and after a certain point, as stated above, I did) but that will never change the fact that I like Fumino's route more.

Now, regarding Fumino's arc, nothing is forced. Fumino and her father had an estranged relationship for years due to him being unable to cope with the loss off his wife. In such a situation it's easy for things to escalate leasing people to say things and react in ways they didn't really mean to. And it's not that her father really hates Fumino, since it was shown that he actually always cared for her. They had a pretty bad fight, and you know what you do after a fight with someone you love? You find a way to make up, because that's what you really want. The laptop isn't a cop out, it's thee thing that allowed them not only to patch things out after the fight but also let Mr Furuhashi finally coming to terms with the loss of his wife enabling him to have a sane relationship with the daughter he loved. And Fumino actually tried to decline the help of Nariyuki, but his mother agreed to let her stay and at that point she had no real reason to refuse only to inconvenience another family instead.

Being not a native English speaker, I hope this post doesn't sound too harsh or hostile, in that case you can rest assured that it wasn't my intention.
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Old 2020-12-28, 21:26   Link #3575
arkhangelsk
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Now that I have plotted out all the chapters (below), I think it's hard to deny the author wanted to push Uruka. Really hard. Forgetting quality, just look at all the Red in that chart. You can quibble over a few - for example, #7 is arguably an Uruka b/c it's about Uruka's problem, but the other two stole enough of the limelight I rated it a Combined. Nevertheless, the trend is clear.

The only question is whether the author "gave up" for awhile between the end of 43 to the end of Fumino's long arc (clearly fewer Reds there). Overall, I'll say Uruka got about 25 chapters she can call her own which is more than anyone else so the effort is objectively clear.

If we say that the author wanted Uruka to win from the start, that makes Fumino what the Chinese community calls an "agent / worker" (工作員) - at least Rizu gets to be an "also-ran". The tragedy for all is that the author is a h*ll of a lot better at writing the "agent" than "his girl". Often Fumino can steal a third or even half a chapter's worth of presence just with a cameo (also plotted in chart). As for her relatively few (I count 19, and 5 of these are concentrated in her Long Arc so otherwise Fumino is actually sparse) dedicateds, the author correctly puts the humor where it doesn't interfere with the upgrading exercise. Which is more than can be said for Uruka's chapters.

In fact, looking at the chart, it's as if the author was banned from writing long arcs for Uruka after her 42+Bonus+43 arc ended up with Uruka threatening to drown Nariyuki. You can clearly see a "gap" in the deployment where Uruka's arc might have been (check the 90-99 row). You can also kind of see how the Author is desperately trying to make up the balance, sneaking in her rounds and presence wherever he can.

The end result is that (to most people anyway) Fumino has decisively more screen presence. As I understand this kind of story, ideally when the winner is announced even the other ships should be quietly thinking "Yeah, I like my girl and enjoy her every appearance but in my heart I knew the Winning Girl was probably gonna win".

If there's a lot of "WTF? Up until about 2-3 chapters before your pronouncement I couldn't even smell a thing" it's a fail. If even he's thinking "God, I need to do some last minute backfilling + retconning to make this work", the readers are speechless.
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Old 2020-12-29, 06:23   Link #3576
WingedAccelerator
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^^Don't worry, we are cool. I just said that if the fans of the manga are still questioning why Uruka is the one based on 150 chapters, the clues are there, but even if that doesn't help, she has to be treated as the one that got the upper hand regarding moments and interactions.

As for the chart above, another Fumino bias there. Reddit pushes the "Fumino has screen presence" bullshit, because they can. When Fumino is closer to 4k fans compared to Uruka and Rizu who don't even have 1k, it's easy to force this narrative, it's not the first time I see it. Tsutsui was so good at writing this agent that she was stuck at her core issue until it was late. Even Rizu was in the running way before Fumino actually processed things that she liked Nariyuki. But if she had a meme face or was fuming in someone else's chapter, that totally means she stole the chapter from that someone.

I will tell you what happened. Sensei won the popularity poll, it was bound to happen, and her presence increased instead. It doesn't mean Tsutsui was banned from writing for Uruka. What kind of mental gymnastics is this, when Fumino's arc also started late 80's? Besides, according to a reddit chart, Uruka at least 6-7 times had a two-parter, not a throwaway individual chapter even before reaching the Uruka arc. Yet, other girl supporters bitched about Uruka not even having an arc therefore she is out, still forcing the "she shot herself in the foot already" several times, but the numbers didn't lie.
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Old 2020-12-29, 10:11   Link #3577
arkhangelsk
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I made the chart myself. I tried to be fair, but if you believe any rectangle is beyond the margin of appreciation, please name the chapter, what color(s) you think it should be and why. Referring to a chart I clearly had not seen and you cannot show does not progress the discussion. As an example, I really think I was fair re Chapter 36 - yes, Fumino only showed up for about 10 frames, but she had a whole conversation with Yuiga using "eye contact". That's at least as important as Ogata being weak against ghosts.

Further, think: I proposed that the author is not as efficient in writing Uruka as he is in writing Fumino. My impression of Uruka will stay exactly the same even if more blocks go Red (from the two-parters you claim I missed) - it's still the same manga. Same dividend divided by larger divisor equals an even lower quotient.

You may personally disagree that Fumino has screen presence, but you even gave information to confirm that she does to many people. As far as selling an Uruka end to the audience is concerned, a competent commercial author must take this into account.

Quote:
Sensei won the popularity poll, it was bound to happen, and her presence increased instead.
The chart seems to contradict these rumors. I was surprised myself because I was inundated with how supposedly dominant Sensei is (one video described it as One episode for Fumino, one for teacher, one for Rizu, one for teacher, one for Uruka, one for ... etc).

In fact, except for the 40s and the 100s, she's at most 2 and usually one chapter of every ten. Of course, the chart doesn't take into account Sensei fanservice shots or other cameos, but such do not take up room for people's arcs. There is plenty of room for a hypothetical Uruka arc in the 90s, the 120s or even the 130s (Uruka directly goes from the Development Arc to the Win).

Quote:
Yet, other girl supporters bitched about Uruka ...
In other words, outside of Uruka fans, people grade things a certain way. Again, a commercial author ignores this at his peril.
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Old 2020-12-31, 02:58   Link #3578
WingedAccelerator
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Screen presence is not a good term, because you imply that she carries the chapter just by being there or making a cameo. But in this case, she has an overwhelming amount of fans, therefore to most them, it's obviously screen presence, while in most cases she didn't do anything to move the plot. Once again, making a meme face or psycho stare thanks to jealousy in someone else's chapter doesn't equal to stealing the chapter from them, even if the community wants to force this idea of fake importance just because it's amusing.

5toubun was similar in this regard. Nino was the least favorite character, then the author started pushing her, she is 2nd now, and while she initially seemed to gain more chapters than the rest, in the end it was due to putting her in most of the chapters, even if it's just one panel. Technically, she has the most screentime at the end of the work, but it didn't give her more interactions with the protagonist, or more individual chapters, and I would argue that the author massacred her character the most, although some others surely can join in this.
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Old 2021-03-02, 03:33   Link #3579
Hakai
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One final shot of that ass
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Old 2021-03-03, 13:25   Link #3580
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Spoiler for Tsutsui's comments about the main cast:
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