|
View Poll Results: GATE - Episode 20 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 4 | 20.00% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 7 | 35.00% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 5 | 25.00% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 2 | 10.00% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 2 | 10.00% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools |
2016-02-28, 01:49 | Link #62 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
|
|
2016-02-28, 03:07 | Link #63 |
Yurifag
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Kharkiv, Ukraine / Barcelona, Spain
Age: 35
|
Yes. In terms of relations with locals Japans politics with Zorzal is stupid. But you have to consider that the government is new. And as was showed last season, opposition and other countries will use any opportunity to crush it. If they find a reason to say that Japanese provoked this war, it will be worse than conflict with Empire.
not to mention that it is the exact thing Tyuule wants.
__________________
|
2016-02-28, 05:30 | Link #64 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
Quote:
Since there's no way to get ahead of the car, as not even the drivers know where they are going.
__________________
|
|
2016-02-28, 06:32 | Link #66 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Deutschland
Age: 39
|
tbh, If I was in Sugawara's shoes I don't think I would wage my reputation to save someone who I just know in few weeks. Getting fired is one thing, but labelled as a pedo is a whole another level, I would commit suicide xD.
__________________
|
2016-02-28, 07:35 | Link #68 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Moscow, RU
Age: 35
|
Quote:
He clearly shows nothing that can be interpreted as pedophilia. This is like calling someone pedophile, just because he saved a poor child from burning alive by tearing down the burning clothes. -_-'
__________________
|
|
2016-02-28, 08:18 | Link #69 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
I'd keep it simple. Invite her to tour Japan's scenic embassy gardens first, argue about the illegality of handing her over later. If that's even necessary, which I don't think it would be. The ambassador didn't look unsympathetic. Worry about any other consequences even later.
|
2016-02-28, 08:50 | Link #70 | |
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
|
Quote:
Just because they can start the war whenever they want doesn't mean that it's a good idea. They know it's coming, but they're being careful to make sure it starts on their terms as an act of unjustified aggression on the Empire's part. Yes, Zolzal has no problem attacking on a mere whim. Japan knows this and thus knows the war's coming, but again, if they simply harbor a criminal, he will have validation and a reason to go to war. Saying that he would have attacked them anyway will not hold any water either, they'll still be seen as the ones that started the war with their clear breach of treaty and interference with internal affairs. They WANT to wait for him to break the treaty himself. I'll repeat: saying he would break the treaty and go to war just because he can will do nothing to diminish the damage Japan will face for starting the fight themselves. And Sugawara knows what he's doing won't hold water, but needed some excuse and declaring her to have a prior contractual connection to the Japanese embassy is the best he had. You have to understand that the doves are a small FACTION in a regime, and the treaty and alliance is with the EMPIRE itself. If they harbor people labeled traitors to the crown simply because said traitors want their nation to surrender rather than fight, they will be seen as interfering with a purely internal matter and encouraging insurrection. Harboring and aiding a rebel who is attempting to undermine the state's authority can easily be read as an open act of aggression against the empire and in betrayal to all the peace talks. In order to gain the peace they and the doves want, they have to respect the empire's choice to label said doves as traitors until the empire makes a move to warrant retaliation. Executing an imperial citizen for suspicion of colluding with an invading force hardly warrants retaliation, so they can't take any action that can be perceived as aggression, such as taking in such suspected criminals. |
|
2016-02-28, 09:52 | Link #71 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
As for Zorzal, he's a war criminal. Japan would be within its rights to demand he be handed over for prosecution as part of the reparations the Empire must pay. We seem to agree on it being in Japan's interest that Zorzal attack, but when you say it must look right... In whose eyes? Who is going to judge Zorzal's actions, and how? If it's our world - the Empire doesn't have a seat in the UN. It doesn't have contacts in the mass media. Unlike Japan. And even if it did, "Japan didn't let me kill a 12 years old girl" is going to be a hard sell. If it's theirs - you forget what kind of place the Empire is. "Because fuck you, that's why" is all the reason they need. The Empire rules because they're the strongest. But what if it stops being the strongest? Sure, the doves are just a faction. But if Japan arranged for all opponents to be hanged and fed to the crows so the doves could rule, the worst that would happen would be a that the citizens of the empire would say "say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss". Oh, sure, maybe, maybe it'd be worthwhile to dress it up a bit better. But the empire is a place where being weak and hesitant is worse than being morally wrong. (Some would argue that the real world is like that, too, when it comes to international politics, but let's not go there.) |
|
2016-02-28, 11:16 | Link #72 | |
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
|
Quote:
And while Zolzal doesn't have any "connections", or a place on the UN, that doesn't change the fact that information will get out, and Japan will look really bad for harboring a criminal guilty of treason. Japan's in a position where offensive actions have to be taken very carefully on account of treaties on our side. If actions are taken against them, such as the kidnapping of one of their citizens or an attack on their land, they can retaliate without any problems. But if they attack a nation without proper justification, this affects their standing on this side significantly. And an empire having cruel laws or the possibility of a youth being executed for suspicion of colluding with an invading force is not likely to fly as sufficient justification. Since the Special Region is recognized on some levels as part of Japanese territory, they have more combative freedom than normal. But if they're seen to have disregarded the sovereignty of the existing nation, there are some nations on our side who will take things very poorly. It's true the war isn't officially over, but it's in a cease fire with the beginnings of a peace treaty in the works. This again makes things look bad if Japan is the one that renews hostilities. America has some wars that were never concluded despite years of peace, but if we were to suddenly renew hostilities there would likely be an uproar. Japan simply isn't the sort of nation that opens (or renews) hostilities so easily. They don't want to be the ones to instigate the fighting in anyone's eyes, both because doing so will likely lead to a greater number of deaths and because it will damage their reputation on both sides of the Gate. The last thing they want to do is simply declare the empire to be evil and launch an attack, especially since they know plenty well that it will be no time before Zolzal slips up and does something that can be seen as a clear act of unprovoked aggression. Whether you like it or not, the Empire has every right to declare anyone a suspected traitor and arrest them for supposed collusion with Japan, so yes, Zolzal could say "they wouldn't let me arrest and execute a twelve-year-old girl who we had reason to believe was aiding the Japanese". Even a twelve-year-old girl can deliberately share secrets with the enemy or hide their secrets, thus helping the enemy to gain an advantage against them and potentially threatening the lives of thousands of Imperial citizens. And if she does this, this amounts to high treason and many nations even today would have severe punishments in store. High treason is in many countries the absolute gravest crime possible, and so mere suspicion is cause for very severe treatment. Anyway, I'm not saying that the claim of betrothal would actually hold water, but it was the best and only chance he had to declare a right to grant Sherry asylum. If he simply said "she's twelve" or something, this really would not hold water. As I said, even a twelve-year-old girl can commit high treason, and a government has to be able to handle traitors regardless of age in order to survive, so the government does have every right to have Sherry arrested and punished according to local law. And as a full imperial citizen, the Japanese government would have absolutely no right to interfere with the empire's jurisdiction over her. By declaring them to be betrothed, which in many countries is significant and effectively contractual, Sugawara devised a "reason" that I agree clearly doesn't hold water, but gave them the only possible distinction between Sherry and the rest of the Doves. This allows them to at least make some argument, however spurious, that the Japanese government held a contractual connection and/or obligation to her that went beyond that for the rest of the peace faction. Without this declaration, there would have been absolutely no way to save Sherry, so it was certainly necessary and helpful. |
|
2016-02-28, 12:03 | Link #73 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Holy Terra
|
The logic is simple:
Empire attacked Japan and Japan pushed them back + secured the Gate so that Empire cannot threaten them anymore. Japan is now looking for peace, because peace can bring them more good than war. Empire is pushed back and prepares for war in secret, Emperor Molt was always for that even if anti-war faction arises within the Empire. Now that he is taken out of the way and Zorzal made de-facto Emperor they will attack Japan again on premise that either they defeat them or they get destroyed - because that's how ancient empires work. As for UN - giving the nature of Empire I am sure that our world would step on Japan's side. In addition to that Special Region was so lucky to have Japanese invading them who are now pacifist nation despite their violent history. I can guarantee you that the likes of USA, Russia, China, Israel, Britain and other nations would not bother that much and would just overrun the Empire and put puppet 'democratic' government in charge of it. |
2016-02-28, 12:24 | Link #74 | |||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Think about the decision process of Imperial subjects. There's an emotional component - out of pride, some of them would rather cut off their own balls than deal with Japan fairly. Those guys are pretty much lost to the cause no matter what Japan does or does not do. But they're far from the majority. Most subjects would follow Japan for the same reason they followed the Empire. And there's the rational component. To address that, Japan must show that to ally with them is to be made richer, more powerful, not set on fire. And they'd been doing so well... until Zorzal called their bluff and showed that, while they speak softly and carry a big stick, they're not willing to use it. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||||
2016-02-28, 14:35 | Link #75 | |||||||
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No, in no time it would become clear that this nation was talking peace while offering protection to anyone who would betray the empire to give them a further political and/or military advantage. You could call them "people in exile", but it wouldn't fly. Or at least, like the other things you suggested they do, it MIGHT NOT fly. And Japan knows that lots of other nations are beside themselves with a desire to find some way to get their hands on that Gate, even if it means war with Japan. They are very cautious, not because it's the right thing to do, but because the wrong action could make them a ton of enemies. That's a bigger reason they're trying to wait for Zolzal to make the first move. They'll do anything that is completely legal and safe to provoke him, but they don't want to "start" the renewed hostilities even if they can claim he's connected to crimes that are not crimes in his own nation. So they read the situation and realized that the guy's almost certainly already started taking actions against them, and it'll only be a matter of time before he says or does something that will validate their attacking him. But they don't want to attack until they feel quite secure that news leaked won't make them look worse and provide potential enemies with an excuse to start making their own moves a little more openly and forcefully. |
|||||||
2016-02-28, 15:06 | Link #76 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
|
Quote:
|
|
2016-02-28, 15:15 | Link #77 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Will their enemies bitch? Of course they will. Will it have any detrimental consequences? Not really. Their enemies will bitch anyway. You know, what I least understand about your position is how you think Zorzal's claims are The Truth, that will out, instead of just his own self-serving point of view. Even he knows he's just purging his political opponents. If Japan decides to have none of that, will there be voices deciding it was all unjust? Of course, but by that time, the fait will be accompli, and everyone will have to live with that. And our countries may take treason seriously, but that's really only when we are the ones betrayed. We're not going to care about what some tin pot dictator calls treason. Hell, there have been cases where countries haven't cared what some major power called treason. |
|
2016-02-28, 15:30 | Link #78 | |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Holy Terra
|
Quote:
'Support us in our cause and we will offer the UN 40% of all natural resources of that world, no taxation of said resources included.' It was established that Japan would have no option but to allow UN mission to go trough. But UN itself and world powers cannot act harshly as Gate opened just in Japan's territory and Japan itself declared other side of the Gate special region of their own country. But it is true that special region has no designed borders and ownership of the territory can change if needed. Japanese are not selfish people and I think that even them would not want to control entire planet by themselves. |
|
2016-02-28, 16:12 | Link #79 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
|
Actually, in regards to the single situation of Casel and Sherry, there was a theoretical better option. I actually read something a contributor of another site posted that I feel like I should modify a bit.
What Sugawara should have done in that situation was meet Casel and Sherry, tell them that he couldn't offer them refuge from the empire because of orders from his home country, then formally tell them that they had 5 minutes (actually any amount of time would work here) to leave Japan's embassy and if they stayed, they would be considered trespassing. On the side, he might instruct Sherry and Casel that if they wanted to get out of the capital to stay there. Once the time limit was up, Sugawara could have them arrested for trespassing on the Japanese embassy grounds, which is under Japan's jurisdiction, and detained them. Going further, he may have even been able to have them sent to Alnus for a trial in a military court, possibly arranging or recommending they be sentenced to something like a week's worth of 'community service' at the base, after which they would be released outside the Alnus base. Both Sherry and Casel would end up outside of Alnus, and as the empire technically doesn't have a treaty with Japan yet, they wouldn't be able to legitimately demand their return. This would have saved both of them, and while it wouldn't be a strong case for them, its arguably better than the marriage stuff that Sugawara came up with. Of course, it wouldn't have nearly as much action as what we got, but you can't have everything. |
2016-02-28, 16:20 | Link #80 | |
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|