Ichigo and Rukia? or Ichigo and Orihime?

[Naive]

Originally Posted by Melodymix

Spoiler:

When that poll was done it was about the time when Ori slapped Ulq. So unless she makes a habit of slapping him I think that couple would go down the poll.

Rukia also was placed no.1 in the "Most Beautiful Female Jump Character" MAN! Do japanese people have good taste or what? Lol

http://www.37vote.net/comic/1152796537/ (in Japanese but no. 1 says Kuchiki Rukia)

Yay for Rukia! Seriously, the most beautiful female jump character? That's amazing, I'm impressed.

I also heard that Orihime was placed 16 in that poll.

I'm glad, after recent events in the manga, Rukia certainly deserves that placement of number one - she is the epitome of beauty, grace, and strength.

[Adam E]

Originally Posted by Naive

Actually, this poll has been conducted 6 times, usually RenRuki manages to beat ichiruki - they've been number 1 three times

This is the first time, I think IchiRuki has claimed the top spot, which makes sense given chapter 269/270 with Ichigo's dropping of the mission to go and pick up Rukia.

I guess this explains your excitement for them taking the top spot. It's not surprising that RenRuki's popularity has slipped when both characters never seem to have scenes together anymore.

Originally Posted by Naive

As for Ulquiorra x Orihime, I'm not surprised it's that popular. It's the flavor of the month for now. You can find so many fanarts of the couple. Now whether it will stay up there like ichiruki/renruki/ishihime - that's the question.

And I think people like the couple because Orihime views herself equal enough to Ulquiorra that she could go ahead and slap him without fear. It's almost refreshing in a sense.

Well, Orihime has the possibility of becoming a Tsundere around Ulquiorra, which the Japanese seem to love. I also find it somewhat refreshing; I think I would enjoy Orihime's relationship with Ichigo more if she didn't seem to worship him so much.

[Forever_young]

Originally Posted by Melodymix

Rukia also was placed no.1 in the "Most Beautiful Female Jump Character" MAN! Do japanese people have good taste or what? Lol

http://www.37vote.net/comic/1152796537/ (in Japanese but no. 1 says Kuchiki Rukia)

I would have voted for Rukia as well. She's strong, smart and beautiful (just like what Orihime said)

There was also a poll there saying 'Rukia or Orihime?' and 'Who's stronger, Rukia or Orihime?' (I hate it when people compare these 2 cause we all know who's gonna win) and Rukia was winning by far. Japanese people do have good tastes

I think I would enjoy Orihime's relationship with Ichigo more if she didn't seem to worship him so much

Me too. I would still love Ichi x Ruki even more but people are starting to say her love is becoming a obbsession. I liked the old Orihime better when she was cheerful. Now she's like "Kurosaki-kun this, Kurosaki-kun that" I mean, please think of something else besides Ichigo!

[Starwing]

I post too slowly to keep up with the conversations... ^^' Ah well.

Is that poll the official Jump poll, because if it is, that's quite surprising. I was sort of predicting that IchiHime would rank far higher, at least within top 10. O.o

So we could view this as Kubo is really succeeding in portraying that despite Orihime's feelings, Ichigo and Rukia have much more going for them.

Or we could view that Kubo is extremely unsuccessful in giving Orihime a fighting chance at Ichigo.

I prefer to think it's the first.

About Orihime's obsession. I like it. I think it's refreshing that an author takes such a likable character and drops them down so low. Kubo has done that with quite a few of the characters. Rukia, Ichigo, Kira, Hinamori, etc. With Ichigo and Rukia though, he soon resolved their crisis and brought them back up. I think that's utterly genius and wish more authors could have the guts to utterly deconstruct a character like that.

The Orihime right now is obviously not the same Orihime we were introduced to. She has changed and not necessarily for the better. But if we take Ichigo and Rukia's cases as examples, she should be showing positive growth very soon.


About IchiHime sharing a childhood... Actually, if readers took their entire life stories and compared them side by side...

Ichigo and Rukia share one major experience - death of a loved one, which was the most significant part of their childhoods. To the character themselves, these were the incidents they struggle with. This is so significant to the character that the manga spent many chapters talking about it. And the issue keeps getting brought up.
Their desire for strength also connects them, but this wasn't emphasized by the actual manga, only chapter 0.

On the other hand, Ichigo and Orihime shares a very similar childhood because of their hair color. However, the connection here doesn't seem as significant. Why? Because Ichigo is so hung up on his mother's death that it overshadows any bullying he had to deal with. His hair color troubles were brought up in passing, it was never a significant thing to him. Whereas to Orihime, the bullying was a major part of what shaped her, and is brought up multiple times. So even though it's true that IchiHime shares a similar past, Kubo has never placed any importance on it. It may be important later, but ATM, it cannot be taken seriously, since neither the manga nor the characters themselves really care.


And from the looks of things, it seems like people think Ichigo had nothing to do with Orihime's depression? O.O'

I don't know... when I read the manga, I thought Ichigo's distant attitude had given all of the gang some trouble. If Ichigo had been nicer to Chad, for example, Chad wouldn't have been hurt. If Ichigo had not dismissed Orihime's help so readily, I don't think her crisis would be so severe. I posted this on another forum, so I won't bore people here unless an arguments starts or something.

So yes, I do think Ichigo's attitude influenced Orihime's current state and he is partially to blame. Yes, I do think that after all that she's suffered, she needs to at least improve her relationship with Ichigo.

However, I think we all agree that it would not be believable if Ichigo suddenly turns around the becomes buddy-buddy or lovey-dovey with Orihime. Their relationship, like any other in Bleach, will progress slowly once their misunderstandings have been cleared up. And a slow development is not going to catch up to the IchiRuki monster without some miracle. ^^'


About the heroine bit:
The girl-friend to the hero always has honorary heroine status, I think. Especially in shounen-shows. Even if the girlfriend begins as a minor character, she is elevated to heroine status if she has the love of the main character. (Think Yu Yu Hakusho, where Keiko appears like... 10 episodes, but is a heroine because of Yusuke the protagonist).

IF Orihime receives Ichigo's love, it's obvious that she gets a status boost to heroine status, equal to but not surpassing Rukia. This is simply because Rukia is a much more prominent driver of the plot and the characters in the story.

However, Orihime does not have Ichigo's love. She doesn't have anything except for her intense emotions and the bad guys' interests. -.-'

In fact, I would have to say that Rukia is even more the heroine now than she was in SS.

In SS, she was a major plot-driver. That is HER world, and the shinigami are HER people. But she herself did not have as much panel time or involvement in the conspiracy. Note, however, that in SS, the plot never shifted. To Ichigo, it was ALWAYS about rescuing Rukia, he didn't turn aside for Chad or look for Ishida/Orihime. Ichigo was always concerned about Rukia, and after she was safe, he fought Byakuya for Rukia's pride.

In SS, Orihime did almost nothing note-worthy. Several of the shinigami noted her abilities and she inserted herself into Division 11 somehow. That's it.

In HM, Orihime is a major plot-driver. However, the arrancars are not Orihime's people, and she is just as disconnected from the setting as the rest of them. We are interested in what happens on her side, but she doesn't get much panel time either. (the next few chapters may prove me wrong). Note that here, the goals are shifting slightly all the time. Ichigo, for all his determination, faltered many times in this arc, proving that Orihime is not as good a protagonist motivator as Rukia.

In HM, Rukia's fight was epic and full of powerful moments, outshining even Ichigo's accomplishments in this arc so far. She may be part of the rescue team, but she has definitely stepped out among the crowd. In the rescue team, we see Ichigo because he is the main character. Right after that, we see Rukia because of her intense and plot-twisting fight.

Rukia's role in HM is a little bit similar to Ishida's role in SS. However, one cannot deny that Rukia of HM is many times stronger in terms of plot development and significance than Ishida of SS. She started this arc as a rescuer, but then distinguished herself again.

All of this really seems like Kubo's attempt to say that despite Orihime's crisis, Rukia is still just as, if not more, important as a heroine.

It's not that a heroine necessarily has to be the girl friend. However, readers look for similar things in a protagonist's partner that we would look for in a heroine. We need to understand WHY Ichigo would like the girl he likes, which means we need to see the girl's good traits. We need to feel that this is the natural progression of the story, which usually means a lot of character and plot development from the story. We need to see that this girl who is important to Ichigo is just as important to Bleach --> which indicates heroine status, especially since romance is such a big deal in this story.

And in both terms of heroine status and potential romance, I believe that what Kubo gives us so far points at Rukia. A lot.

[sorbet]

Actaully IchiRuki ranked #1 twice, the first poll and the sixth. IchiTat won once and Renruki won twice. Anyway, I'm still happy that IchiRuki regained their spot ^^ Who wouldn't notce their chemistry? With ch 269 and ch 270, I hope they'll continue to rank #1

[Naive]

Oh thanks for correcting me Sorbet, guess I was wrong. But yay I'm glad they won twice instead of once.

AND now more than ever it shows that IchiRuki is still going strong

[Adam E]

Originally Posted by Starwing

So we could view this as Kubo is really succeeding in portraying that despite Orihime's feelings, Ichigo and Rukia have much more going for them.

Or we could view that Kubo is extremely unsuccessful in giving Orihime a fighting chance at Ichigo.

I prefer to think it's the first.

I think it's probably a combination of both.

Originally Posted by Starwing

About Orihime's obsession. I like it. I think it's refreshing that an author takes such a likable character and drops them down so low. Kubo has done that with quite a few of the characters. Rukia, Ichigo, Kira, Hinamori, etc. With Ichigo and Rukia though, he soon resolved their crisis and brought them back up. I think that's utterly genius and wish more authors could have the guts to utterly deconstruct a character like that.

I never found Orihime very likable before the current arc, and dropping her so low has just succeeded in making me like her less. Also, it's not really the fact that she's obsessed with Ichigo that bothers me, it's that nothing has happened in the manga to make me feel she should be so obsessed with him.

Originally Posted by Starwing

Ichigo and Rukia share one major experience - death of a loved one, which was the most significant part of their childhoods. To the character themselves, these were the incidents they struggle with. This is so significant to the character that the manga spent many chapters talking about it. And the issue keeps getting brought up.
Their desire for strength also connects them, but this wasn't emphasized by the actual manga, only chapter 0.

They share more than one major experience. For example, both felt ostracized from their families; Ichigo for his ability to see ghosts, and Rukia because she was adopted. In addition, this changed for both characters as the manga went on (although I don’t think Ichigo has realized this, yet). I could probably think of more, but I’m in the process of re-reading the manga right now.

Originally Posted by Starwing

On the other hand, Ichigo and Orihime shares a very similar childhood because of their hair color. However, the connection here doesn't seem as significant. Why? Because Ichigo is so hung up on his mother's death that it overshadows any bullying he had to deal with. His hair color troubles were brought up in passing, it was never a significant thing to him. Whereas to Orihime, the bullying was a major part of what shaped her, and is brought up multiple times. So even though it's true that IchiHime shares a similar past, Kubo has never placed any importance on it. It may be important later, but ATM, it cannot be taken seriously, since neither the manga nor the characters themselves really care.

I think the different reactions they had to people harassing them about their hair colour really negates it as a shared childhood experience, and better serves to show how different they are as characters, not similar.

Originally Posted by Starwing

So yes, I do think Ichigo's attitude influenced Orihime's current state and he is partially to blame. Yes, I do think that after all that she's suffered, she needs to at least improve her relationship with Ichigo.

Personally, I loathe relationships that are based off pity and I really don’t want Orihime to end up with him just because we feel sorry for her. Anyways, I don’t think many people were saying that Ichigo didn’t play a hand in Orihime’s current dark mood; on the contrary, I believe people were saying Orihime should go after someone specifically because Ichigo made her so depressed.

Originally Posted by Starwing

The girl-friend to the hero always has honorary heroine status, I think. Especially in shounen-shows. Even if the girlfriend begins as a minor character, she is elevated to heroine status if she has the love of the main character. (Think Yu Yu Hakusho, where Keiko appears like... 10 episodes, but is a heroine because of Yusuke the protagonist).

IF Orihime receives Ichigo's love, it's obvious that she gets a status boost to heroine status, equal to but not surpassing Rukia. This is simply because Rukia is a much more prominent driver of the plot and the characters in the story.

The girlfriend is usually the one that stays at home and wishes the hero luck on the sidelines, and I find they tend to become less heroic, if anything, once they actually become the girlfriend. For example, Chichi becomes a housewife after she marries Goku, when she a martial artist before. In One Piece, all the female leads get involved in the fighting, and none of them are a main character’s girlfriend. Keiko, who you mentioned, is like a cheerleader, as are numerous other shounen female love interests. At the moment, I think both Naruto and Bleach could break this stereotype, but I don’t believe Bleach could pull it off with Orihime becoming Ichigo’s love interest.

Originally Posted by sorbet

Actaully IchiRuki ranked #1 twice, the first poll and the sixth. IchiTat won once and Renruki won twice. Anyway, I'm still happy that IchiRuki regained their spot ^^ Who wouldn't notce their chemistry? With ch 269 and ch 270, I hope they'll continue to rank #1

Did IchiTat win the first poll? Whatever poll it won, I don't think it's going to win again.

[Melodymix]

Originally Posted by Adam E

Did IchiTat win the first poll? Whatever poll it won, I don't think it's going to win again.

Nop, Ichi x Ruki one the first poll. I'm so pleased with these polls. Ichigo x Rukia was voted no. 1 couple, Rukia was voted no. 1 in the most Beautiful Jump Female Character etc.

And I'm not suprised that Ichi x Ori was coming 50 on the poll. It may be a little focused on Orihime's feelings towards Ichigo but I see more people hating this relationship than liking it. Although I did find it really amusing to see Nell x Ichigo in a higher spot than Ichi x Ori. Ichi x Ruki 4eva!

[Naive]

Originally Posted by Adam E

I guess this explains your excitement for them taking the top spot. It's not surprising that RenRuki's popularity has slipped when both characters never seem to have scenes together anymore.

I know, RenRuki and IchiRuki have both been my favorites. I have to admit had KT developed RenRuki after 173, I'd still probably be a staunch fan of RenRuki. I love RenRuki a lot still, but I'm really loving IchiRuki at this point and think that it has the most chance of being canon.

Not to mention I loathe IchiOri and think it's the worst pairing possible

Originally Posted by Adam E

Well, Orihime has the possibility of becoming a Tsundere around Ulquiorra, which the Japanese seem to love. I also find it somewhat refreshing; I think I would enjoy Orihime's relationship with Ichigo more if she didn't seem to worship him so much.

I like the possibility of Ulquiorra x Orihime because the dynamic seems interesting and her interaction with him doesn't feel disconnected. They've been together for 2 days and so far they've managed to form something akin to at the very least respecting each other. Ulquiorra even calls Orihime a strong woman. I hate the fact that Orihime puts Ichigo on a pedestal and we never find out why she loves him so much. It's like she doesn't see Ichigo, a flawed teenager who currently struggles with vow to protect balanced with his internal hollow dilemma, but she sees someone strong and great.

And that's fine, Ichigo is strong and great, but he's not perfect. He doesn't need someone to worship him, he needs someone to talk to him equally. He doesn't need to be admired, he needs to be treated normally.

[Elegant Destruction]

Originally Posted by Naive

I hate the fact that Orihime puts Ichigo on a pedestal and we never find out why she loves him so much. It's like she doesn't see Ichigo, a flawed teenager who currently struggles with vow to protect balanced with his internal hollow dilemma, but she sees someone strong and great.

And that's fine, Ichigo is strong and great, but he's not perfect. He doesn't need someone to worship him, he needs someone to talk to him equally. He doesn't need to be admired, he needs to be treated normally.

sorry, i have to disagree here. orihime knows all about ichigo and that he is a flawed teenager, such as about that incident with his mother *except the hollow bit as far as i am aware* and understands that he suffers and even that much of his present character was a reaction from that incident. She even wishes to suffer with him, and in the end for him to lean on her.

The problem is that she may know of this incident, and even feels his grief, but she can never touch the core of that pain because she does not understand the guilt of believing you have killed a loved one, the guilt of surviving even.

and in a sense, she is in awe of him, but then so is rukia, she is amazed and ichigo's progress and strength, the difference between them though is that while orihime will try to help, and at times does, she is far too pacifistic and timid to understand ichigo and help. Rukia on the other hand has seen the worse of battle, and with that experience has helped ichigo by standing at his side and not become distracting, and even guide him at times.

and i think that is what it comes down too. Orihime may have strong feelings for ichigo and may even understand a part of him but she can't see a way to really help him out because she does not understand the whole of what he is going through, while rukia can as she has had many of the same and similar experiences. Moreso, she can stand on her own without worrying what ichigo is going to think for her taking the stance that she chose. She is her own person in her own right, orihime relies too much on others to defined her.

ok, i think i wrote enough, i leave it at that ^^

but yeah, i still argue that Orihime doesn't see ichigo as the perfect person.

[Uchih@]

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

She is her own person in her own right, orihime relies too much on others to defined her.

I have to disagree with this part, orihime doesn't relies that much on others, she has always tried to do things on her own and not let others worry about her, even she feels depressed because of that she is not strong enough to protect herself

Spoiler for Manga:

When orihime is in Heuco mundeo and thinks of destroying that heuogkyo, she also says that this time i will protect kurosaki kun, showing that she doesn't really enjoys relieing on others, she wants to stand on her own feet just like Rukia

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

i still argue that Orihime doesn't see ichigo as the perfect person.

I agree with that, she doesn't really sees at Ichigo as if he is a perfect person, she sees Ichigo as a person she had loved a lot more than anything.

[Elegant Destruction]

Originally Posted by Uchih@

I have to disagree with this part, orihime doesn't relies that much on others, she has always tried to do things on her own and not let others worry about her, even she feels depressed because of that she is not strong enough to protect herself

Spoiler for Manga:

When orihime is in Heuco mundeo and thinks of destroying that heuogkyo, she also says that this time i will protect kurosaki kun, showing that she doesn't really enjoys relieing on others, she wants to stand on her own feet just like Rukia

i can agree that she wants to stand on her own feet, even that she is beginning too, but her character *as an actual character i meant* does relie on others to defined her.

While rukia's character stands on its own in its own right.

i am not saying that is necessarly a bad thing, but it does place orihime in a weaker position as for the longest time now, the audience couldn't really touch orihime's core. Its only in recent chapters that we are starting to see something of her but even then that is undermined by the audience sheer frustration at her focusing so entirely on....

Spoiler for manga:

on protecting her friends and thus coming to HM and then not realising that they were going to be put in danger anyway as they were going to come after her.

Even worse is that she has been led somewhat down the garden path by Aizen. we can all tell that he wants her to do that time thing on the hongyock (sp? - yes, i know that is particularly bad spelling of it, so do laugh away* ) and she is actually going to do it without finding out more about her own powers or about that.

But lets give credit where is credit due, she knows not to trust him and that he is up to something.... the fact that she is still going to go through with it leaves the audience bangin their head against the wall.

and the fact she is not defending herself from those who jsut attacked her in this and the last chapter, at least with rukia you know she will try something, she may not succeed, but she would try.

but that is getting slightly off topic, so to go back to the original point. Orihime position as a character is weaker and thus we can't see how she can really interact with ichigo in a relationship.

It makes me shudder to think how nervous she would be around him on a date, and how he would watch himself to make sure he doesn't make her uncomfortable and thus he be uncomfortable not being himself.

I agree with that, she doesn't really sees at Ichigo as if he is a perfect person, she sees Ichigo as a person she had loved a lot more than anything.

very much so ^^ its one of the reasons i like her. she is sincere to her feelings and is not afraid to act on them. i have yet ot see her wish anyone harm and she does her very best to help out. She can see others weaknesses and her own, and is not afraid to admit to them and even do something about them, moreso, she is ready to suffer painful experiences in the hope of helping others.

So i really don't see where the bashing of orihime comes from as i see these all as good traits... not her cooking of course ^< lol

[Naive]

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

sorry, i have to disagree here. orihime knows all about ichigo and that he is a flawed teenager, such as about that incident with his mother *except the hollow bit as far as i am aware* and understands that he suffers and even that much of his present character was a reaction from that incident. She even wishes to suffer with him, and in the end for him to lean on her.

The problem is that she may know of this incident, and even feels his grief, but she can never touch the core of that pain because she does not understand the guilt of believing you have killed a loved one, the guilt of surviving even.

and in a sense, she is in awe of him, but then so is rukia, she is amazed and ichigo's progress and strength, the difference between them though is that while orihime will try to help, and at times does, she is far too pacifistic and timid to understand ichigo and help. Rukia on the other hand has seen the worse of battle, and with that experience has helped ichigo by standing at his side and not become distracting, and even guide him at times.

and i think that is what it comes down too. Orihime may have strong feelings for ichigo and may even understand a part of him but she can't see a way to really help him out because she does not understand the whole of what he is going through, while rukia can as she has had many of the same and similar experiences. Moreso, she can stand on her own without worrying what ichigo is going to think for her taking the stance that she chose. She is her own person in her own right, orihime relies too much on others to defined her.

ok, i think i wrote enough, i leave it at that ^^

but yeah, i still argue that Orihime doesn't see ichigo as the perfect person.

Orihime does understand he suffers but just the way she talks about him, she says "Kurosaki-kun is great and can do a great many things" surely implies that there's an element of hero worship involved.

When she looks to him, she sees the flaws in herself. If there wasn't an element of hero worship involved she wouldn't call herself weak and say that she RELIES ON HIM all the time, like she did in 225. She wouldn't say she needed to get stronger so she could fight equally with him.

Rukia has never said that.

This is not just awe, but this is hero worship. Rukia has NEVER treated him the way Orihime does and put him on this pedestal. Rukia may be in awe of Ichigo but she understands his flaws perfectly. Rukia understands that he's arrogant and reckless.

Orihime doesn't, she never ever mentions one bad thing about him. When he so rudely tells her to get away in 192/193, she listens, even though she's trying to fight for him and not rely on him. She doesn't say, "I want to fight" like she did during the Mayuri fight, but she succumbs to his wishes.

I'm sick of people believing that Orihime is a pacifist, Orihime can protect. Orihime has the ability to be active. She was active when she protected Tatsuki in the beginning of the manga. She was active when she told Ishida she wanted to fight against Mayuri despite witnessing Mayuri use his subordinates as human bombs.

IF Orihime was a pacifist, she wouldn't fight and train to be on the battle lines.

So many other people can connect with Ichigo, not all of them have the same shared experiences as Ichigo and Rukia had. Chad, Ishida, Renji and even Nell connect with Ichigo. It doesn't mean they connect with Ichigo on the same level as Rukia does, but they do end up connecting a lot more than Orihime.

I have to disagree that it's a lack of shared experience that prevents herself from connecting to Ichigo on a basic level. It can't be, when so many other connect with Ichigo and don't share that same experience of the guilt of killing a loved one.

She can't see certain flaws that are inherent in Ichigo because she has never mentioned them. Yes she sees him suffer, this is true, but she wants to empathize - and when you empathize with someone sometimes it's a form of brushing the flaws off instead of understanding them.

Orihime does hero-worship Ichigo. He is her inspiration. She wants to be strong like him. When she sees Ichigo, she sees her own flaws and fails to realize that she's a pretty strong individual herself who has solely relied on herself and has been independent in the past.

[Elegant Destruction]

Originally Posted by Naive

Orihime does understand he suffers but just the way she talks about him, she says "Kurosaki-kun is great and can do a great many things" surely implies that there's an element of hero worship involved.

i just call that admiration, and she says the same about rukia, but no one is suggesting that there is hero worship or love there.

it is just finding admirable qualities in the people you love. everyone does that. i love my brother, he is smart and clever etc etc but the truth is i will still love him if he was an idiot.

we tend to find admirable qualities in the people we love.

When she looks to him, she sees the flaws in herself. If there wasn't an element of hero worship involved she wouldn't call herself weak and say that she RELIES ON HIM all the time, like she did in 225. She wouldn't say she needed to get stronger so she could fight equally with him.

Rukia has never said that.

no, rukia just believes she 'corrupted his (ichigo's) world and twisted his fate'.

and rukia has always seen the inferiorities within herself, somewhat due to the kaien incident but also somewhat due to adoption into the kuckil (spell?) household.

rukia already had her inferior complex, orihime started to doubt herself when she saw ichigo and the others fighting more-so than her, and then considered herself inadequate. (which brings me back to her being needed to be defined by other people)

This is not just awe, but this is hero worship. Rukia has NEVER treated him the way Orihime does and put him on this pedestal. Rukia may be in awe of Ichigo but she understands his flaws perfectly. Rukia understands that he's arrogant and reckless.

Agreed.

Orihime doesn't, she never ever mentions one bad thing about him. When he so rudely tells her to get away in 192/193, she listens, even though she's trying to fight for him and not rely on him. She doesn't say, "I want to fight" like she did during the Mayuri fight, but she succumbs to his wishes.

i think she understood that she was weak and would only get in the way. but i need to get back to you on that as i think we are talking about ulq+yammi fight but i'm not sure. i need to check those chapters.

I'm sick of people believing that Orihime is a pacifist, Orihime can protect. Orihime has the ability to be active. She was active when she protected Tatsuki in the beginning of the manga. She was active when she told Ishida she wanted to fight against Mayuri despite witnessing Mayuri use his subordinates as human bombs.

IF Orihime was a pacifist, she wouldn't fight and train to be on the battle lines.

please don't go and put words in my mouth. i never said she was a pacifist, i said she had pacifistic tendencies, which she does.

She is not much of a fighter/aggressive as the other characters, even her powers are mainly defensive.

so yes, she has pacifistic tendencies. That is not a bad thing, if anything the manga needed someone like that.

So many other people can connect with Ichigo, not all of them have the same shared experiences as Ichigo and Rukia had. Chad, Ishida, Renji and even Nell connect with Ichigo. It doesn't mean they connect with Ichigo on the same level as Rukia does, but they do end up connecting a lot more than Orihime.

i hate to say this, but we got to remember it was rukia who started all of this, who sacrificed herself for his family and even though it was somewhat by accident, gave him means to protect.

yes, there are other people who connect, but these experiences he only shared with her. they grew and changed together.

She can't see certain flaws that are inherent in Ichigo because she has never mentioned them. Yes she sees him suffer, this is true, but she wants to empathize - and when you empathize with someone sometimes it's a form of brushing the flaws off instead of understanding them.

Orihime does hero-worship Ichigo. He is her inspiration. She wants to be strong like him. When she sees Ichigo, she sees her own flaws and fails to realize that she's a pretty strong individual herself who has solely relied on herself and has been independent in the past.

this is where i disagree slightly. i think it is safe to say then, that rukia hero worship kaien but in the manga

Spoiler:

when she met that espada and believed it was kaien she told him off and to be serious. so you can hero worship and see flaws.

[Red Herring]

I though Orihime and Ichigo barely knew eachother by the time Bleach begins. I mean, Orihime was Tatsuki's friend and thereby Ichi was on good terms with her but that was the extent of it. Unless I'm mistaken there was nothing deep between the two.

Hero worship is a flaw not a virtue. This one of the aspects of Orihime's character that makes her the wrong person for Ichigo. I mean its basically the same thing as some creepy stalker who idolizes a celebrity. Infatuation =/= love. She lives in a fantasy in terms of Ichigo. Like Naive said, Rukia sees Ichigo's true self, and Orihime just projects whatever image she wants to believe in unto him.

[Adam E]

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

sorry, i have to disagree here. orihime knows all about ichigo and that he is a flawed teenager, such as about that incident with his mother *except the hollow bit as far as i am aware* and understands that he suffers and even that much of his present character was a reaction from that incident. She even wishes to suffer with him, and in the end for him to lean on her.

The problem is that she may know of this incident, and even feels his grief, but she can never touch the core of that pain because she does not understand the guilt of believing you have killed a loved one, the guilt of surviving even.

Orihime's knowledge of his troubled past tends to add to the admiration aspect of her feelings for Ichigo, since it gives Ichigo the image of a man moving on with a burden on his shoulders.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

and in a sense, she is in awe of him, but then so is rukia, she is amazed and ichigo's progress and strength, the difference between them though is that while orihime will try to help, and at times does, she is far too pacifistic and timid to understand ichigo and help. Rukia on the other hand has seen the worse of battle, and with that experience has helped ichigo by standing at his side and not become distracting, and even guide him at times.

I agree that both admire him, but my problem with Orihime surfaces when she's unable to stop admiring him, while Rukia has little trouble doing so. I think the difference in how the two view Ichigo is demonstrated in how they react to him when he's moping. Rukia will simply knock him back into reality without thinking too much, while Orihime will gather up her courage and attempt something, then decide that helping him is out of her reach if she fails.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

but yeah, i still argue that Orihime doesn't see ichigo as the perfect person.

Near the beginning of the Soul Society arc, there's a scene where Orihime imagines Ichigo as a prince after he defeats the guardian of the gate that really illustrates the idea that Orihime sees Ichigo as the perfect person. Since Orihime’s feelings always seem to intensify after Ichigo just won a battle or does something heroic after that scene, she does little to change my opinion that she views him as a prince, or the perfect person.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

i am not saying that is necessarly a bad thing, but it does place orihime in a weaker position as for the longest time now, the audience couldn't really touch orihime's core.

I don’t think Orihime’s weaker position makes it hard for audience’s to connect with her; if anything, that should make it easier to empathize with her, since most people have been in a position where someone is better than them. However, in Orihime’s case, I’ve found it unbelievable that she could be in such a position since the only reason she’s like that is because she lacks confidence, when she has no good reason not to be confident in herself. She’s apparently smart and gets the third highest marks in her class; she’s apparently athletic enough to become a first-degree blackbelt after a few lessons with Tatsuki. Also, her spiritual abilities are becoming broken. Finally, let’s not forget that Orihime has a body to inspire envy.

Considering her positive traits, it seems somewhat insane such a person could lack confidence. I doubt there’s anyone out there reading Bleach who has as much to brag about as Orihime, but feels as unconfident as she does. Accordingly, that’s why I believe readers find it difficult to connect with her.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

but that is getting slightly off topic, so to go back to the original point. Orihime position as a character is weaker and thus we can't see how she can really interact with ichigo in a relationship.

Actually, I think we can see Orihime in a relationship with Ichigo. The problem is that relationship looks like it would be unbalanced and full of inequality, especially compared to what Ichigo and Rukia have already.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

very much so ^^ its one of the reasons i like her. she is sincere to her feelings and is not afraid to act on them. i have yet ot see her wish anyone harm and she does her very best to help out. She can see others weaknesses and her own, and is not afraid to admit to them and even do something about them, moreso, she is ready to suffer painful experiences in the hope of helping others.

So i really don't see where the bashing of orihime comes from as i see these all as good traits... not her cooking of course ^< lol

Personally, I dislike characters that only seem to have good traits, and lack proper flaws. I find them very unrealistic and difficult to connect with.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

i just call that admiration, and she says the same about rukia, but no one is suggesting that there is hero worship or love there.

it is just finding admirable qualities in the people you love. everyone does that. i love my brother, he is smart and clever etc etc but the truth is i will still love him if he was an idiot.

we tend to find admirable qualities in the people we love.

More important than finding admirable qualities in people we love, we find ways to love them despite whatever flaws they have. Whenever someone does this, I find it to be a strong indicator that they really love someone. So, when Orihime seems to just see the admirable qualities in Ichigo and appears to brush over his negative aspects, it looks more like worshipping than love to me.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

no, rukia just believes she 'corrupted his (ichigo's) world and twisted his fate'.

and rukia has always seen the inferiorities within herself, somewhat due to the kaien incident but also somewhat due to adoption into the kuckil (spell?) household.

rukia already had her inferior complex, orihime started to doubt herself when she saw ichigo and the others fighting more-so than her, and then considered herself inadequate. (which brings me back to her being needed to be defined by other people)

Rukia feels guilty for what she’s done and feels the need to atone; it’s not an inferiority complex. It’s why she feels the need to protect Ichigo instead of the need to be protected by Ichigo, unlike Orihime who does have an inferiority complex.

Interestingly, Ichigo also feels guilty about how he stole Rukia’s powers and feels the need to protect Rukia. It makes their relationship quite dynamic, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

I think she understood that she was weak and would only get in the way. but i need to get back to you on that as i think we are talking about ulq+yammi fight but i'm not sure. i need to check those chapters.

Is she really that weak, though? Certainly, she became weaker when she believed what Ichigo said; I think she would have gained strength if she rejected what Ichigo said.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

please don't go and put words in my mouth. i never said she was a pacifist, i said she had pacifistic tendencies, which she does.

She is not much of a fighter/aggressive as the other characters, even her powers are mainly defensive.

so yes, she has pacifistic tendencies. That is not a bad thing, if anything the manga needed someone like that.

If she has such pacifistic tendencies, it shouldn’t bother her that she’s so much “weaker” than everyone else.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

i hate to say this, but we got to remember it was rukia who started all of this, who sacrificed herself for his family and even though it was somewhat by accident, gave him means to protect.

yes, there are other people who connect, but these experiences he only shared with her. they grew and changed together.

I believe Naive’s point was that the other characters lacked the strong connection that Ichigo has with Rukia, but, nonetheless, have managed to build a strong relationship with him, while Orihime has not.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

This is where i disagree slightly. i think it is safe to say then, that rukia hero worship kaien but in the manga

Spoiler:

when she met that espada and believed it was kaien she told him off and to be serious. so you can hero worship and see flaws.

Spoiler:

This just shows that Rukia is capable of admiring someone while being able to see them as they are, and says nothing of Orihime’s capability to do the same.

[Naive]

@Adam

Great post! I feel like I have not much to add after your refutation of Elegant Destruction's points.

Except I'll just say, that Orihime's love for Ichigo seems like hero-worship to me because we're not given a specific concrete reason why she fell in love with him so deeply, especially when he's given her nothing to encourage her feelings for him, meaning no reciprocation.

Instead, all we get from her point of view is admiration after admiration after admiration of Kurosaki-kun. This admiration also causes her to compare herself to Ichigo and see herself as weak. She doesn't realize that she has protected people in the past, she got her powers and defeated a hollow herself in order to protect Tatsuki. She doesn't realize that she has shown a lot of strength when she fought - when she protected Ishida and Maki Maki against Mayuri. She doesn't realize that she has shown resolve for battle. When she looks to Kurosaki-kun, all she can say is that she needs to get stronger for him.

There is a failure to connect between Ichigo and Orihime. It's like she cannot speak to him on a level equal to Renji, Ishida, Chad, or Rukia, there's always been a distance. It has nothing to do with the shared experiences between Rukia and Ichigo, other people can connect to Ichigo a lot more than Orihime can, it has to do with this lack of equality between them.

You cannot deny that her love for Ichigo isn't colored by admiration for him. It's the only thing that she mentions over and over again. Rukia's treatment of Ichigo and Orihime's treatment of Ichigo are completely different. Orihime focuses on how great Kurosaki-kun is and how she must get stronger. For Orihime, Kurosaki-kun is almost an inspiration instead of a real person. At least, that's how I feel when I see her talk about him.

She never mentions his flaws. She never treats him like an equal. She never stands up to him - whereas she's stood up to Ishida when he tried to remove her from the fight against Mayuri. She also stood up against Maki Maki when he tried to take her away from the fight against Mayuri - she bit him.

Spoiler for spoiler for manga:

She stood up against Ulquiorra and slapped him even when he refused to shut up about her friend's death

. When she interacts with Ichigo, it's almost as though she's submissive and passive. more and more recently. So I see this disconnect between these two characters, and that I feel stems from her inability to treat him as an equal.

Edit:

Spoiler for manga:

And Rukia's relationship to Kaien was completely different to Orihime's relationship to Ichigo. Rukia actually could connect with Kaien and it was a very deep relationship. It wasn't a one-sided hero worship, there was a sense of respect, understanding, and a deep affection between the two. Furthermore, I don't think it's fair to compare Rukia's relationship with Kaien to Ichigo with Orihime's when the KaiRuki relationship started out unequal. He was her superior, there couldn't be the same sense of familiarity that could be possible with Ichigo and Orihime. However, even though Kaien was her superior she still connected with him a lot more than Orihime connected with Ichigo. Even in chapter 268, Rukia calls him lame when he tells her that he fights for "heart".

The KaiRuki relationship also had a sense of mutuality where Kaien acknowledged and supported Rukia. He favored her - took her out for special training sessions alone. He gave her kind words of encouragement - something Ichigo has never done for Orihime. He also trained her and gave her confidence in her sword skills. Remember she herself said that her sword skills were less than proficient in 268, yet in the end, she's the one who's the first person to defeat an Espada with her powerful shikai. In fact, it might be the most powerful shikai we've seen up to date. KaiRuki was something deep and mutual. Rukia could connect with Kaien just as much as Kaien could connect with Rukia. This is why in the end, just as he's about to die, he knows exactly that he's caused her pain and he takes full responsibility for his action. He also leaves his heart, something that will save her life later on as she fights Aaro.

[Elegant Destruction]

Originally Posted by Adam E

Orihime's knowledge of his troubled past tends to add to the admiration aspect of her feelings for Ichigo, since it gives Ichigo the image of a man moving on with a burden on his shoulders.

sorry i never saw that, that was never written, there is no evidence of that indication at all.

I agree that both admire him, but my problem with Orihime surfaces when she's unable to stop admiring him, while Rukia has little trouble doing so. I think the difference in how the two view Ichigo is demonstrated in how they react to him when he's moping. Rukia will simply knock him back into reality without thinking too much, while Orihime will gather up her courage and attempt something, then decide that helping him is out of her reach if she fails.

agreed, but that doesn't indicate hero worship.

Near the beginning of the Soul Society arc, there's a scene where Orihime imagines Ichigo as a prince after he defeats the guardian of the gate that really illustrates the idea that Orihime sees Ichigo as the perfect person. Since Orihime’s feelings always seem to intensify after Ichigo just won a battle or does something heroic after that scene, she does little to change my opinion that she views him as a prince, or the perfect person.

is that in the manga because i never saw that in the anime *didn't start reading manga unitl bounto arch* so could you give me a chapter so i can go and look it up?

I don’t think Orihime’s weaker position makes it hard for audience’s to connect with her; if anything, that should make it easier to empathize with her, since most people have been in a position where someone is better than them. However, in Orihime’s case, I’ve found it unbelievable that she could be in such a position since the only reason she’s like that is because she lacks confidence, when she has no good reason not to be confident in herself. She’s apparently smart and gets the third highest marks in her class; she’s apparently athletic enough to become a first-degree blackbelt after a few lessons with Tatsuki. Also, her spiritual abilities are becoming broken. Finally, let’s not forget that Orihime has a body to inspire envy.

but you said it yourself, she doesn't really have any negative traits. the problem with orihime is that she is defined by other characters, we get a sense of self with everyone else, but with orihime you do feel *until recent manga chapters* that she is somewhat not there. and as a character that does put her in a weaker position and the audience can't relate to that as we do have a sense of self.

and you could say she lacks confidence due to the fact she lost her brother and due ot her modesty. When you lose someone you depend upon and your last loving family member, it does send a blow to the living member especially at that young an age. You are not sure what to do next, there is no guidance, is what you doing the right thing?

and honestly i don't find her body envious but she probably doesn't because she is a modest individual and continous find qualities in other people she admire that she lacks in herself.

Considering her positive traits, it seems somewhat insane such a person could lack confidence. I doubt there’s anyone out there reading Bleach who has as much to brag about as Orihime, but feels as unconfident as she does. Accordingly, that’s why I believe readers find it difficult to connect with her.

i seriously thought people didn't relate to her because she didn't develop much as a character until recently and thus we didnt' really have much to grasp on to.

and even now i feel we are only touching the surface with her. but still, i find the main reason we can't relate to her is that she is too much defined by other characters, you can't really defined her in her own right. i openly admit there is something lacking in her character design that does leave you with a sensation you just passed over someone.

Actually, I think we can see Orihime in a relationship with Ichigo. The problem is that relationship looks like it would be unbalanced and full of inequality, especially compared to what Ichigo and Rukia have already.

lol i agree with that. mine was incorrect, its not that we don't see how a relationship between would work, its that we see it too well, sheer nervousness and uncomfortability.

Personally, I dislike characters that only seem to have good traits, and lack proper flaws. I find them very unrealistic and difficult to connect with.

so that is a reason to bash her? i never said we should connect with her or that she is realistic i just find it absurd the way some people bash her by making her good qualities her bad ones.

if you are going to bash orihime at least do it honestly. Orihime is lacking as a character as she is too much defined by her love for ichigo and her relatioship with her best friend.

More important than finding admirable qualities in people we love, we find ways to love them despite whatever flaws they have. Whenever someone does this, I find it to be a strong indicator that they really love someone. So, when Orihime seems to just see the admirable qualities in Ichigo and appears to brush over his negative aspects, it looks more like worshipping than love to me.

love is blind perhaps? and i never once said that Orihime's love for ichigo would work with him.

Spoiler for manga:

i still find that whole confession scene one of the worse things ever. its invasion of privacy, abuse of trust, alot of selfishness and just downright creepy

i would argue that orihime's love is more of a crush and not hero worship. worse even, it feels like a first love so its just the age of old thing of somoene maturing and growing up.

Rukia feels guilty for what she’s done and feels the need to atone; it’s not an inferiority complex. It’s why she feels the need to protect Ichigo instead of the need to be protected by Ichigo, unlike Orihime who does have an inferiority complex.

i would still argue that rukia has an inferoity complex because there is a part of her that feels unworthy in entering a noble household. She also feels somewhat underserving in her friendship with ichigo.

Interestingly, Ichigo also feels guilty about how he stole Rukia’s powers and feels the need to protect Rukia. It makes their relationship quite dynamic, in my opinion.

so they have a relationship formed upon guilt? lol, and i have been arguing that their relationship was formed on trust, dam! ^<

ok, sorry, enough teasing.

i do recognise there is some sort of guilt there but i never saw that in the beginning, that came later in the ss arch. And while its strangely through this period of seperation that we see their relationship develope, i would argue that the relatioship was truly formed in those first few months/episodes. After all, it was being around rukia that made ichigo a better man, when someone can change you like that it got to be love.

Is she really that weak, though? Certainly, she became weaker when she believed what Ichigo said; I think she would have gained strength if she rejected what Ichigo said.

she wanted the approval of the person she admired, go figure. anyway, yes she became weaker, but honestly she couldn't handle herself well in battle, and would have beoame something of a burden.

If she has such pacifistic tendencies, it shouldn’t bother her that she’s so much “weaker” than everyone else.

wait, pacifistic tendencies make you weak? and just because you have pacifistic tendencies doesn't mean you want to change them?

ok, stop being scastic, i am not doing bar fights thank you very much. However, if that was not your intent i apologise but it certainly felt like it.

I believe Naive’s point was that the other characters lacked the strong connection that Ichigo has with Rukia, but, nonetheless, have managed to build a strong relationship with him, while Orihime has not.

not surprising considering she is modest and fines it hard enough to speak with him at times. but i do believe she is a little more involved then you give credit.

remeber in the beginning when ichigo wasn't sure to go after rukia or not? it was orihime that return to him his resolved, that reminded him of who he is. Thats a big thing in my opinion.

Spoiler:

This just shows that Rukia is capable of admiring someone while being able to see them as they are, and says nothing of Orihime’s capability to do the same.

i believe Naive was defining hero worship (i may just use hw from now on) and i just pointed out that hw doesn't always work like that, as from all the qualities she pointed out that would make rukia hw kaien except for the fact she talked back.

So defining hw is not likely, then could it be those two are simply different characteres that react towards the people they admire differently? [obviously that is what i would argue ^^

QUOTE=Naive;925684]@Adam

Great post! I feel like I have not much to add after your refutation of Elegant Destruction's points.[/quote] Ella ^^ plz call me ella, it makes life easier that way then writing out my essay of a username ^^.

Except I'll just say, that Orihime's love for Ichigo seems like hero-worship to me because we're not given a specific concrete reason why she fell in love with him so deeply, especially when he's given her nothing to encourage her feelings for him, meaning no reciprocation.

erm... sheer crush? and i don't know about specific concrete reason. i mean don't people fall in love and still say to this day it was love at first sight? or they can't tell you why they liked someone?

she fell in love with him and is now finding reasons to like him, so i still say its a crush.

Instead, all we get from her point of view is admiration after admiration after admiration of Kurosaki-kun. This admiration also causes her to compare herself to Ichigo and see herself as weak.

and rukia ^^. it can't be helped she is modest like that, that is part of her nature as a character, when she see qualities that she admires but lacks herself, she doesn't see her own good points, just beat herself over the bad. And how many times does this happen irl? no seriously, don't we all see a quality we want but lack and then get upset over it? who actually starts thinking 'oh well i get high marks in school so that makes up for it'?

She doesn't realize that she has protected people in the past, she got her powers and defeated a hollow herself in order to protect Tatsuki. She doesn't realize that she has shown a lot of strength when she fought - when she protected Ishida and Maki Maki against Mayuri. She doesn't realize that she has shown resolve for battle. When she looks to Kurosaki-kun, all she can say is that she needs to get stronger for him.

agreed.

There is a failure to connect between Ichigo and Orihime. It's like she cannot speak to him on a level equal to Renji, Ishida, Chad, or Rukia, there's always been a distance. It has nothing to do with the shared experiences between Rukia and Ichigo, other people can connect to Ichigo a lot more than Orihime can, it has to do with this lack of equality between them.

i can agree there is a a sort of failure to connect between them, which is really ironic as orihime does seem to know his moods and what he is generally thinking/feeling while ichigo does register orihime but doesn't really know her, so definetly painful irony there.

and now i got a slight supscion we are actually saying the same thing but going around each other point as its now how we would say it.

i would argue the reason why other people connect with ichigo more, is the fact they have similar/same/are experiencing things with ichigo. through that whole ss arch orihime & ichigo never interacted until the very end. there is nothing for her to build upon, end of, thus there is nothing there to connect upon. maybe this leads to the inequality you are talking about, but i don't think ichigo sees orihime less than his equal.

You cannot deny that her love for Ichigo isn't colored by admiration for him. It's the only thing that she mentions over and over again. Rukia's treatment of Ichigo and Orihime's treatment of Ichigo are completely different. Orihime focuses on how great Kurosaki-kun is and how she must get stronger. For Orihime, Kurosaki-kun is almost an inspiration instead of a real person. At least, that's how I feel when I see her talk about him.

of course i am not denying htat, i don't believe i ever did. what i am arguing is that rukia also admires him but that doesn't mean she can't seem his flaws and it doens't mean orhime can't either.

and i think i can agree with your point here in general. Orihime 'love' for ichigo is causing her to change herself because a part of her wants to be like him she sees things in him she wants, and this also allows the audience to see that orihime relationship is not really about him but more about herself developing as a person, so again i am arguing crush here.

She never mentions his flaws. She never treats him like an equal. She never stands up to him - whereas she's stood up to Ishida when he tried to remove her from the fight against Mayuri. She also stood up against Maki Maki when he tried to take her away from the fight against Mayuri - she bit him.

i actually doubt she is ever in a situation where his flaws would cocme, but otherwise i can agree to that. you don't generally teat people you admire as an equal, you just tend to be in awe of them.

Spoiler for spoiler for manga:

She stood up against Ulquiorra and slapped him even when he refused to shut up about her friend's death

. When she interacts with Ichigo, it's almost as though she's submissive and passive. more and more recently. So I see this disconnect between these two characters, and that I feel stems from her inability to treat him as an equal.

agreed.

Edit:

Spoiler for manga:

And Rukia's relationship to Kaien was completely different to Orihime's relationship to Ichigo. Rukia actually could connect with Kaien and it was a very deep relationship. It wasn't a one-sided hero worship, there was a sense of respect, understanding, and a deep affection between the two. Furthermore, I don't think it's fair to compare Rukia's relationship with Kaien to Ichigo with Orihime's when the KaiRuki relationship started out unequal. He was her superior, there couldn't be the same sense of familiarity that could be possible with Ichigo and Orihime. However, even though Kaien was her superior she still connected with him a lot more than Orihime connected with Ichigo. Even in chapter 268, Rukia calls him lame when he tells her that he fights for "heart".

The KaiRuki relationship also had a sense of mutuality where Kaien acknowledged and supported Rukia. He favored her - took her out for special training sessions alone. He gave her kind words of encouragement - something Ichigo has never done for Orihime. He also trained her and gave her confidence in her sword skills. Remember she herself said that her sword skills were less than proficient in 268, yet in the end, she's the one who's the first person to defeat an Espada with her powerful shikai. In fact, it might be the most powerful shikai we've seen up to date. KaiRuki was something deep and mutual. Rukia could connect with Kaien just as much as Kaien could connect with Rukia. This is why in the end, just as he's about to die, he knows exactly that he's caused her pain and he takes full responsibility for his action. He also leaves his heart, something that will save her life later on as she fights Aaro.

Spoiler for manga:

i would actually argue that ichigo does respect orihime and while isn't really affectionate *is he with anybody really?* that he does care for her. After all she just risked her life for his cause.

And i think it is fair to connect. Rukia on one sense was an equal as she came from a noble household. And either way orihime did feel unequal in her relationip to ichigo as it did started out unequal, there were times she couldn't even talk ot him.

agreed on the connection is stronger with ruk/kai than ichi/ori. but i wouldn't call rukia calling him lame as the evidence of that, i would argue that the fact she felt she inhereted his 'heart' was. Orihime is a different person to rukia, or course she is going to react different to the person she admires then rukia.

The KaiRuki relationship also had a sense of mutuality where Kaien acknowledged and supported Rukia. He favored her - took her out for special training sessions alone. He gave her kind words of encouragement - something Ichigo has never done for Orihime. He also trained her and gave her confidence in her sword skills. Remember she herself said that her sword skills were less than proficient in 268, yet in the end, she's the one who's the first person to defeat an Espada with her powerful shikai. In fact, it might be the most powerful shikai we've seen up to date. KaiRuki was something deep and mutual. Rukia could connect with Kaien just as much as Kaien could connect with Rukia. This is why in the end, just as he's about to die, he knows exactly that he's caused her pain and he takes full responsibility for his action. He also leaves his heart, something that will save her life later on as she fights Aaro

agreed for the most part except this idea that rukia could connect as much with kaien as he could with her, that it was mutal. i see kaien teating rukia like he would treat his kid sister *if he had one* . he acts as both teacher and superior to her, he would not confide his problems in her but i think in the end rukia would have to him.

[evenex]

DAAA, people these days, their posts are so long I'm not gonna read them all. @_@
I'm not suprised at all Ichi x Ori came 50

Spoiler:

Everyone freaked out in the kiss scene (not only Rukia x Ichi fanz) but they thought her love is going over the top. And if she followed Aizen to destroy Hyougyoku(spelling?) then she should have atleast known Ichigo and his gangs will come to the rescue.

I'm so pleased with the poll as well. Shows how popular Ichi x Ruki is

[Adam E]

Originally Posted by Naive

@Adam

Great post! I feel like I have not much to add after your refutation of Elegant Destruction's points.

Thanks. I enjoyed reading your posts, as well.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

sorry i never saw that, that was never written, there is no evidence of that indication at all.

Well, after Rukia gets kidnapped and Ichigo is feeling down, Orihime comments on how it doesn’t fit her image of him to be acting like that. So, learning that Ichigo had a tragic past did not change her personal image of Ichigo to include him looking depressed, nor her ideas that he should be strong enough to move past anything.

Gaining more knowledge about Ichigo’s past seems to have just changed him from a prince to a tragic prince in Orihime’s eyes.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

agreed, but that doesn't indicate hero worship.

Uh, yeah, it is a sign of hero worship. It doesn't mean that Orihime's feelings are just hero worship, which is why I prefer using the safer word "admire."

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

is that in the manga because i never saw that in the anime *didn't start reading manga unitl bounto arch* so could you give me a chapter so i can go and look it up?

Yes, it's in the manga immediately after Ichigo defeats Jidabo. Sorry, but I don't remember the exact chapter it is. Maybe someone else can supply the number.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

but you said it yourself, she doesn't really have any negative traits. the problem with orihime is that she is defined by other characters, we get a sense of self with everyone else, but with orihime you do feel *until recent manga chapters* that she is somewhat not there. and as a character that does put her in a weaker position and the audience can't relate to that as we do have a sense of self.

I'm not sure why you can keep on saying that she's defined by other characters. Are you trying to say that her personality is weak because she's so selfless she just bends to the will of others, and, as a result, doesn't seem to really be strong as an individual?

Regardless, lack of negative traits really does alienate characters from readers. The term being used too frequently to describe this type of character is “Mary Sue.”

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

and you could say she lacks confidence due to the fact she lost her brother and due ot her modesty. When you lose someone you depend upon and your last loving family member, it does send a blow to the living member especially at that young an age. You are not sure what to do next, there is no guidance, is what you doing the right thing?

Orihime has problems with bullies before her brother died, so her problems with confidence existed before his death. Orihime did have abusive parents, but she left them at a fairly young age. Nonetheless, I mentioned her positive features to make the point that she shouldn’t have such little confidence in herself when she’s success like she’s had and a lot to be confident about.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

and honestly i don't find her body envious but she probably doesn't because she is a modest individual and continous find qualities in other people she admire that she lacks in herself.

The other characters frequently comment on how good she looks visually, so in the world of Bleach her appearance is valued.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

i seriously thought people didn't relate to her because she didn't develop much as a character until recently and thus we didnt' really have much to grasp on to.

It’s not like there can’t be more than one reason people don’t relate to a character, you know.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

so that is a reason to bash her? i never said we should connect with her or that she is realistic i just find it absurd the way some people bash her by making her good qualities her bad ones.

No, I don't think that's a good reason to bash her. The best reason to bash her would be if you don't enjoy the series whenever she takes the spotlight. Personally, I don't like it when she's around since I find her boring due to her lack of flaws and unrealistic amount of virtues.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

love is blind perhaps? and i never once said that Orihime's love for ichigo would work with him.

Sorry if I assumed that, but, considering what this thread is for, you should be sticking up for Orihime if you want to stick up for her relationship with Ichigo.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

Spoiler for manga:

i still find that whole confession scene one of the worse things ever. its invasion of privacy, abuse of trust, alot of selfishness and just downright creepy

Spoiler:

I think most people feel that way about the confession. It is creepy.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

I would argue that orihime's love is more of a crush and not hero worship. worse even, it feels like a first love so its just the age of old thing of somoene maturing and growing up.

The two aren’t really that different. People tend to have crushes on stars they idolize, or worship. In this thread, Orihime’s feelings for Ichigo are being called hero worship because she seems to have a crush on him because he’s a hero.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

i would still argue that rukia has an inferoity complex because there is a part of her that feels unworthy in entering a noble household. She also feels somewhat undeserving in her friendship with ichigo.

She might have a bit of an inferiority complex around Byakuya, but that would be it. I didn’t see anything that suggests she doesn’t deserve to have a friendship with Ichigo. In the Soul Society arc, she feels she doesn’t deserve to be rescued, but that doesn’t have anything to do with inferiority.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

so they have a relationship formed upon guilt? lol, and i have been arguing that their relationship was formed on trust, dam! ^<

It was formed on guilt. Ichigo felt guilty for taking her powers, and Rukia felt guilty for causing problems for Ichigo by turning him into a Shinigami. It’s all good, though, because it gets developed into something based on trust as the series went on.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

wait, pacifistic tendencies make you weak? and just because you have pacifistic tendencies doesn't mean you want to change them?

Orihime perceives herself as weak. People need to be strong if they want to fight, and pacifists don’t want to fight. So, if Orihime really had pacifistic tendencies, she wouldn’t want to become stronger since she wouldn’t want to fight.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

not surprising considering she is modest and fines it hard enough to speak with him at times. but i do believe she is a little more involved then you give credit.

Chad rarely speaks to Ichigo but there’s still a great sense of camaraderie between the two, and it has remained interesting with Chad gaining an inferiority complex.

After 270 chapters, the relationship between Ichigo and Orihime is much too one-sided.

Originally Posted by Elegant Destruction

remember in the beginning when ichigo wasn't sure to go after rukia or not? it was orihime that return to him his resolved, that reminded him of who he is. Thats a big thing in my opinion.

Before that scene, Ichigo showed no sign of not wanting to rescue Rukia. It wasn’t until Orihime suggested that Rukia might want to stay in Soul Society that he even considered not going to save her. I would have found the scene more moving if Orihime hadn’t been the source of the doubt.

Originally Posted by evenex

DAAA, people these days, their posts are so long I'm not gonna read them all. @_@

It’s fun making long posts. Try it sometime.

Originally Posted by evenex

I'm so pleased with the poll as well. Shows how popular Ichi x Ruki is

I’m not sure if I’m more pleased by Ichigo x Rukia coming in first, or Rukia being voted the most beautiful Shounen Jump character.