Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Sansker]

Maybe we are looking in the wrong place. We assume the Raptors are going to play an important role and it might as well just like the limiters from StrikerS: a cheap plot device that goes nowhere and is just cast aside when its purpose seems to be done.

[Justin_Brett]

Maybe we're on a different page, but... I was referring to the Raptors learning how opponent's fight. Sure, during the first round, you may scrap some of them. But then they pass on what they learned, and the next batch avoids or counters your attacks.

I was referring to that bit where one of the Grendels dressed up in a lab coat and pretended to be one of the scientists, then cheap-shotted them with a taser when the advanced robots went 'eh, seems legit'.

It was just shit going wrong so Cypha could have her day.

[Sansker]

I know, this robots are not really smart. But to their credit... their character desing is so generic we can have more characters for the price of one.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Maybe we are looking in the wrong place. We assume the Raptors are going to play an important role and it might as well just like the limiters from StrikerS: a cheap plot device that goes nowhere and is just cast aside when its purpose seems to be done.

Sadly, that also sounds like a very plausible outcome xDU

We know the real reason behind the raptors, the Huckebein can trash conventional mages without even trying which means the usual Red Shirts are now CRIMSON FLAMING BLOOD SHIRTS ...so in order to even the ground and to have someone else aside of the Worfenritter to serve as punchin bags for the villains they designed the Raptors, they can take more hits than your regular red shirt, they are specialized in the use of the very "breakable" AEC-units and they lack any individual personal traits the audience could attach with (they even have most of their faces covered xDU) so they can be trashed and stompped by dozens without anyone giving a shit xDU

so yeah, the perfect Red Shirts xDU

[Sansker]

Yes about their personalities. I read they lack an actual individual personality; however they seem to have some level of individuality program in them. That is why Lily decide to give them names instead of just putting some roman numbers on them and calling One, Two, etc. (I mean, what kind of idiot will do that? Wait...) In any case for useful troops to be use we have, and I am not happy to say it, the cyborgs. There IS are no magic and they are also more durable, smarter and stronger than the Raptors, not to mention they are more if we count the ones from the Church.

And about the Raptors as Red Shirts we already have the TSAB mages, they get beat by the truckload in StrikerS and I don’t think we ever give a crap about it

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Sansker

And about the Raptors as Red Shirts we already have the TSAB mages, they get beat by the truckload in StrikerS and I don’t think we ever give a crap about it

Yeah but the plot at least had excuses to present them as "competent people" back then (at least post AMF-training) but here there's no good excuse to have them around with EC Drivers as the enemy. Of course you could equip them with Strike Cannons and War Hammers like everyone freaking else but since the author wants to have the foes being super violent he just can't have the Hucks/Grendels slaying people all the time on-page so the Raptors fill quite nicely the spot for expendable trashable characters without names xD

[Sansker]

They do have names, Lily give them all names.

But for some reason part of me is thinking the names are something like: One, Two, etc.

Aside from the Section Six people the guys of the TSAB have always appear as useless Red-Shirts since the first season. I believe only in A’s they did something good and even then only because they were like 20 against 2 and they didn’t fight just hold them in place until all of the,. Full grow men, could let two 9 years old girls do the job. How can this people get jobs?

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Sansker

They do have names, Lily give them all names.

But for some reason part of me is thinking the names are something like: One, Two, etc.

Aside from the Section Six people the guys of the TSAB have always appear as useless Red-Shirts since the first season. I believe only in A’s they did something good and even then only because they were like 20 against 2 and they didn’t fight just hold them in place until all of the,. Full grow men, could let two 9 years old girls do the job. How can this people get jobs?

Well, rule of drama. You're not allowed to do anything unless you're a main character which isn't a problem specific to only this. It's why stormtroopers are the best in the galaxy and can't hit a slow moving trashcan. But this is just in the perspective of our heroes, relatively speaking.

When done right, it's supposed to show that the situation is truly serious business and only the best and brightest can handle the situation. Star Trek, the show where redshirt gets its name for, sometimes does this quite well though it also has some awful use of it too. Why is it that mission teams in Star Trek involve most of the command officers, even though that is utterly unsafe? We are allowed to hold our suspension of belief for the sake of drama. A good example is when Nanoha just went off to fight Fate and bypassed security. It's pretty stupid that 2 kids can just compromise the TSAB's security like that, but at the very least it's for the sake of drama and some excitement, even if it's silly. It is for the sake of storytelling. If the TSAB had dealt with everything, and Nanoha and Yuno were largely perephial, then logic would demand many important things happen off screen, and well, that's not exciting to view.

When done wrong, it feels like the series is unable to come up with a credible conflict with tension and a way to artificially push both our heroes and enemies into credibility-- making both look ridiculous. And when you discredit certain characters or groups too much to the point of where failing becomes a forgone conclusion, it gets quite bad. One of the worst examples is probably when Vita was pierced a cliffhanger, since the chances of anything coming out of that was nil. At that point I was already like "Nope, not even a chance she'll die"

It's funny that you bring up limiters above since to me that was an inability to come up with a proper, meaningful conflict. Yes, there's stuff at stake. Our heroes are getting pwned and thrown around. We're supposed to feel tension, like there will be consequences abound. Aka, giving a shit.

[Sansker]

I don’t think I understand. Yes, I agree what you say about the rd-shirts and how they are use to show some bad guys mean business and to let us know this was a really dangerous adventure when is done right and how is just lazy writing when is done wrong. However I don’t get you about this manga, it is a good example it is a bad example for you? I can’t tell.

Aside from that I did mention the limiters out of the same feeling you express. They were, as I say, a cheap plot device created to make the stake look but but that in the end was nothing relevant at all. Was there just to give the Forwards a reason to be there.

Here I think they do the same with the characters. The Grendel or the Hückebein family kick some ass and they are show as super awesome and powerful. In the battle against the Grendel Cypha was just taking everything Quinn throw at her like she was hitting her with a stick. Quinn at fist is show as deadly and precise, cutting down our heroes and their weapons like butter and then super strong Cypha appears and she just blocks everything, how could anyone even lay a hand on that woman? Oh, wait, there it goes Signum cutting her arm of… consistency? What’s that? But even ignoring facts as story telling is just cheap tactics to make each character look badass.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I don’t think I understand. Yes, I agree what you say about the rd-shirts and how they are use to show some bad guys mean business and to let us know this was a really dangerous adventure when is done right and how is just lazy writing when is done wrong. However I don’t get you about this manga, it is a good example it is a bad example for you? I can’t tell.

Aside from that I did mention the limiters out of the same feeling you express. They were, as I say, a cheap plot device created to make the stake look but but that in the end was nothing relevant at all. Was there just to give the Forwards a reason to be there.

I'm not here to pass judgement since I'm far behind and am not qualified to make that assessment. I just wanted to explain the concepts at hand that they aren't necessarily bad by default. However, I would say this series post A's has consistently gone towards the cheap end. A clearly bad one would be the limiters though which is why I mentioned it.

[Sansker]

I know these ideas aren't bad by themselves. Like I say my problem with Force is not at the core, at least not much, but more as how is done and how presents things. I say is fair to give a judgment if we are loyal fans. And I already state mine. But I can point out good stuff... when I find it.

Execution will be my biggest issue with Force right next to the need of not using Nanoha and the old cast for anything but minor characters. Just because something works well on other media means will magically work everywhere or will make something good just because of it.

[Justin_Brett]

You'll point out good things if they apply to your very specific idea of what is good.

[Sansker]

Everything is opinion based; I think that is something we all can agree with. What is the point of repeating: “That is how you see it” as our only argument? Of course I will say if I think something is good but I can tell when something might be good for the story even if I didn’t like it myself.

[vic-vic]

Uh, is there something about this month chapter?

I really miss Huckebeins.

[Sansker]

We have the Hückebein around already. I mean they are the focus of the chapters if the previews are right so there is no need to miss them. But now we talk about miss, something I still don’t get: what were Nanoha and Fate doing when the Grendel family attack?

NanoFate?

[Kaijo]

Enjoying an orgy with Yuuno.

(Yes, I went there!)

Why do you think he hasn't been around much? Dude needs a lot of rest to recover from the sessions Nanoha and Fate give him! (Also why Griffith isn't around; Lucino's a beast!)

[Sansker]

I avoid the YunNoha where I can; NanoFate fans are really not to be play with. But I am glad to hear hour heroines have their priorities: sex or doing your job? Well screw you kids, we are busy.

Now, for real, I did think was just another “Ups, I forget they exist” moment from the author.

[Kaijo]

Hey, you were the one to suggest they were enjoying a romantic moment.

[Sansker]

Because the other idea I have is them just not caring. Maybe it went like if they just decide not to be in the manga this will go away... ah, those are nice dreams.

But again, I just confuse by it. The problem with so many people on this team, you can't fit them all in one scene so half of the time you need to move the around without telling anyone where are they or why. Truly a master of writing right there.

[Justin_Brett]

You really can't take a joke, can you man?