Zeta Gundam discussion

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by dom33

@obi-wan gsd was entertaining at first then when the old cast came back as the good guys, well it's safe to say gsd jumped the shark. i never liked the seed cast (sans rau, fllay,(not at first) yzak,natarle and some times kira)
here's why
kira:yet another accidental gundam pilot and he bacame dead boring after he got freedom.
athrun: i've seen his kind too many times.
mwu: he could have reminded me of servral people examples are ryu jose,straight cougar, kaji(nge) and unfortunetly slegger law. thoose guy had lots of moments, mwu had his death and well one moment dosen't make a character.
dearka: a failed version of chiboode(sp?) crocket.
murrue:a big boobed idiot.
nicol: very under developed.
tolle:same thing.
sai and kuzzey: useless.
lacus: a stinking mary sue.
cagalli: a failed version of relena.
andy: liked him at first then when he came back he was arg.
azreal and patrick: they're praticlly dbz villians.
uzumi: a ripoff of relena's father.(not the real one)
astray girls and druggies: lacked development so i could neither like or hate them.
as for the cast of zeta the guys i hated are wong and thoose annoying little kids!had no problem with new cast of gsd.

@guy above me, same here!

Whoa confusing and difficult to read. Caps really do matter sometimes. As much as I like Zeta if I were to play Devil's Advocate I'd have to disagree with this argument as you'd have failed to convince me of anything regarding Zeta, but you'd have done an okay job of telling us why Seed had poor characters and your not going to win any arguments that way. PM and I can share a few debating tactics with you.

[Tak]

Is it that difficult to comprehend the fact that people have preferences?

I seen Zeta Gundam before I was exposed to SEED. And I can't say I apprecaited the show. Is it a bad show? Most certainly not. I did not like it due to the fact that Tomino went on a killing spree, most of which were extremely pointless. Its like colonies getting blown up by the dozens in Gundam Wing. Was Tomino trying to convey to me the horrors of war? If he was, then he failed utterly, since I was made numb, not sympathetic.

"One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." Joesph Stalin

If I only get to have SEED and Zeta to choose from, then I'd probably go with SEED. It had characters -I- cared about. Although both series (Seed/Destiny) suffered from a messed up ending (only to be remedied later), the overall character development in both series weren't bad (but it could use an improvement, especially for Shinn). That, and I am not particuarly keen on the 'sacrifice yourself for the greater good' thing. If I was the protagnist, and I worked the butt off, then dammit, I expect to be rewarded!

But if Zeta is your thing? More power to ya. If I don't like it? I don't like it. What more is there to say?

Oh, lastly...

dom33 "cagalli: a failed version of relena."

If I was Cagali, I'd take that as a compliment. Relena doesn't do jack except opening her mouth. If it wasn't for Heero and her brother cleaning up all the mess she created, she would not have survived the show. Wanna open your mouth? Fine, rally God's wrath behind you before you do so. Cagali learned that lesson the hard way, but she learned it. Instead of crying to stop a war, bring some Murasame, or better yet, get in a Akatsuki, lead a strike team, and send the traitors back to hell. Go girl!

- Tak

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Tak

Is it that difficult to comprehend the fact that people have preferences?

I seen Zeta Gundam before I was exposed to SEED. And I can't say I apprecaited the show. Is it a bad show? Most certainly not. I did not like it due to the fact that Tomino went on a killing spree, most of which were extremely pointless. Its like colonies getting blown up by the dozens in Gundam Wing. Was Tomino trying to convey to me the horrors of war? If he was, then he failed utterly, since I was made numb, not sympathetic.

"One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." Joesph Stalin

If I only get to have SEED and Zeta to choose from, then I'd probably go with SEED. It had characters -I- cared about. Although both series (Seed/Destiny) suffered from a messed up ending (only to be remedied later), the overall character development in both series weren't bad (but it could use an improvement, especially for Shinn). That, and I am not particuarly keen on the 'sacrifice yourself for the greater good' thing. If I was the protagnist, and I worked the butt off, then dammit, I expect to be rewarded!

But if Zeta is your thing? More power to ya. If I don't like it? I don't like it. What more is there to say?

Oh, lastly...

dom33 "cagalli: a failed version of relena."

If I was Cagali, I'd take that as a compliment. Relena doesn't do jack except opening her mouth. If it wasn't for Heero and her brother cleaning up all the mess she created, she would not have survived the show. Wanna open your mouth? Fine, rally God's wrath behind you before you do so. Cagali learned that lesson the hard way, but she learned it. Instead of crying to stop a war, bring some Murasame, or better yet, get in a Akatsuki, lead a strike team, and send the traitors back to hell. Go girl!

- Tak

Oh nice name drop with Joseph Stalin by the way, good quote but kind of out of place.

Tomino does have some strange issues regarding the role of women and children and death in conflict, which is really the only issue I have with his works, he's definetly not altogether there and it shows sometimes in his work. For the most part though Zeta was a great sci-fi epic, but I can't even see a Gundam fanatic like myself calling Gundam an accurate portrayal of war, its a show thats there to entertain and make us think a little bit about some of the issues regarding war, some do a bit better than others. We've got to understand though that the main driving force behind Gundam is to sell model kits, but Tomino and the Hajime Yatate team were capable of turning into so much more a lot of the time.

Oh and For the record to dom33, Cagalli is actually one of if not my favorite Gundam Girl, so, I can't side with you there, she actually has guts. To me an argument is instantly lost once you start trying to insult the things that people like as your more likely to have them come back swinging with a vengeance. The only way to lose an argument quicker is with the Hitler comparsion.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

Oh nice name drop with Joseph Stalin by the way, good quote but kind of out of place.

Actually, I think uncle Joe's wisdom hit the spot dead-on.

The quote is simply there to illustrate how numb I was while watching Zeta Gundam and Tomino's killing spree. I didn't care, therefore, its not a 'tragedy'. It was a mere 'statistic', with people getting bombed left n' right. They were mere numbers, nothing for me to be sympathetic or sorry for. Unless Tomino wanted to show us some 'creativity' in the art of mass destruction, though I doubt that was the goal he tried to attain.

Lastly, instead of comparing Lacus to some random Gundam character, compare her to Lin Minmei instead. I personally see her as a mix of Lin Minmei and Misa Hayase, but thats just me.

- Tak (and if there is a better war drama than Gundam? Always look for Macross)

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Tak

Actually, I think uncle Joe's wisdom hit the spot dead-on.

The quote is simply there to illustrate how numb I was while watching Zeta Gundam and Tomino's killing spree. I didn't care, therefore, its not a 'tragedy'. It was a mere 'statistic', with people getting bombed left n' right. They were mere numbers, nothing for me to be sympathetic or sorry for. Unless Tomino wanted to show us some 'creativity' in the art of mass destruction, though I doubt that was the goal he tried to attain.

- Tak (and if there is a better war drama than Gundam? Always look for Macross)

Maybe you just didn't like the characters then, that kills any series right there. For me even when Apolly died it meant something. I felt the same numbness when almost every character in Gundam Seed Destiny died, half of the characters that died I barely even knew there name.

Oh and Macross was far more character driven than any Gundam series. There were entire sets of episodes at a time where the Zentraedi decided to leave them alone and the characters sat back relaxed and we learned more about them. I would have loved to be on the Macross's journey. It wasn't really a war though, just people trying to survive against an overwhelmingly powerful enemy.

Also Uncle Joe, never heard Stalin called that before.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

Maybe you just didn't like the characters then, that kills any series right there. For me even when Apolly died it meant something. I felt the same numbness when almost every character in Gundam Seed Destiny died, half of the characters that died I barely even knew there name.

Don't get me wrong. ZETA is not a bad series, and I don't hate the characters. However, after the killing spree had proceeded half-way through, it went from tragedy to total numbness.

Sure, SEED made some of the same mistake. A lot of people died meaninglessly, but it surprised me completely with the death of the three Astray pilots, gotta give 'em credit for pulling that on me. Moreover, the depressing death of Natarle was, imo the best 'death' in the series, because it had style. Despite this, they did not overdo the deaths. Zeta overdone it for me.

As for Macross, it was first and foremost a war. The conflict itself might have been totally unfair for the humans, but that did not mean the humans were ready to give in. Instead, they took up arms and resisted. That is a war.

After all, what happened in Macross shall forever be known as 'Space War I'.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

Also Uncle Joe, never heard Stalin called that before.

Nope, because I made that up. Come on, take a joke.

- Tak

[fizzmaister]

I'm watching it right now, I'm right after Amuro meeting up with the people that were stranded on Earth and he crashes the freighter into the MS (ep. 15ish). So far I've only seen Kamille's parents, Roberto, Monte Blanc, some titans and some grunts (not in that order neccesarily) die. The first real death that actually hit me as solid (other than Kamille's parents, but they died to set up the story).

After Roberto died Char, excuse me Quattro, gave a good mini-sermon to Kamille, about how this is war, he feels bad that Roberto died, but the time for crying is later (something along those lines) and they need to respect his memory by going to space.

That I think is what the deaths that I'm hearing about are supposed to mean, its trying to get the viewer to see what it's like to fall into a shell to protect yourself from death.

[Last_Hope]

Zeta Gundam isn´t bad at all. But it´s not the masterpiece people always claim it to be.

The big plus for Zeta in my opinion would be the interesting characters. /Kamille excluded but Char was great in Zeta and Amuro was handled in a good way.) And the mecha designs are nice aswell. The last few episodes are really good aswell.

The big minus is the randomness of the show. Battles, encounters and defections aswell just occur too random. I feel the stupidiest thing in Zeta is when Kamille just walks into the base to talk with Four... And you know. Compared to Char Kamille doesn´t really grow throughout the show. It´s pretty much Char that steals all the spotlight. Kamille remains the same throughout the show.

And until the last few episodes the battles are far too easy too read. They begin the same and end the same. So the battles didn´t become really exciting until the end.

My favourite Gundam shows would be. SEED, 08th MS Team and Turn A Gundam.

[Tak]

^ Worse, despite the fact that Karamel awakened from his coma in ZZ, he didn't even return in Char's counterattack. For shame!

And speaking of Char's counterattack, its one of those Tomino murder movies People-just-keep-on-dying-to-the-point-of-numbness (not that its a bad movie, mind you. Love the fights)

I think he is trying to change that (his bitterness), evident with that whole 'New Translation' movies.

Lastly, I love MS08. Its the closest thing to a war drama for Gundam.

- Tak

[Obi-Wan]

CCA is dumb for what it did to Char after everything he learned in Zeta. I hate that aspect of the film immensely as Char, Amuro and Bright are the only reasons worth watching UC for besides interesting battle choreography. I will blast Zeta till the cows come home because it was an infinite let down, but I do respect the development of Quattro. CCA version of Char, code named "Hey! I'm a bad guy again!" pissed me off so much. Besides that I think it was a decent film and I like the ending to the Federation vs Zeon story line.

[4Tran]

I don't know how much of a role the order one watches shows in has to do with how much one likes that show. For example, Turn A is the very last Gundam show I have seen so far, but it's still my second favorite (if it hadn't messed up the ending, it would have been my favorite). I think that this criteria is more dependent on temperament. Some people put a lot of stock on originality, and may feel as if a later work is intruding upon their memory of a treasured favorite. Others may not give a damn, and only care about how well a show is executed. It's probably easier to simply put the difference of opinion on Zeta on a case of personal opinion.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

Tomino does have some strange issues regarding the role of women and children and death in conflict, which is really the only issue I have with his works, he's definetly not altogether there and it shows sometimes in his work. For the most part though Zeta was a great sci-fi epic, but I can't even see a Gundam fanatic like myself calling Gundam an accurate portrayal of war, its a show thats there to entertain and make us think a little bit about some of the issues regarding war, some do a bit better than others.

I heartily agree here. There were certainly a few interesting female characters in Zeta, but it didn't seem as if the creators had any idea what to do with them. Instead of using interesting dialogue to develop them as characters, it seems as if they decided to create "roles", and simply have the characters fill them. There were a lot of missed opportunities, particularly for Haman.

Originally Posted by Tak

The quote is simply there to illustrate how numb I was while watching Zeta Gundam and Tomino's killing spree. I didn't care, therefore, its not a 'tragedy'. It was a mere 'statistic', with people getting bombed left n' right. They were mere numbers, nothing for me to be sympathetic or sorry for. Unless Tomino wanted to show us some 'creativity' in the art of mass destruction, though I doubt that was the goal he tried to attain.

I agree with this. To this date, I have no idea why most of those deaths were there at all, or what they were supposed to accomplish. It didn't help that most of them occurred at the very end, where the storytelling was at its most befuddled.

Originally Posted by Obi-Wan

CCA is dumb for what it did to Char after everything he learned in Zeta. I hate that aspect of the film immensely as Char, Amuro and Bright are the only reasons worth watching UC for besides interesting battle choreography. I will blast Zeta till the cows come home because it was an infinite let down, but I do respect the development of Quattro. CCA version of Char, code named "Hey! I'm a bad guy again!" pissed me off so much. Besides that I think it was a decent film and I like the ending to the Federation vs Zeon story line.

Quattro's maturity, when it came to Amuro, was one of the highlights of Zeta. I was rather amazed that Tomino decided to throw away all that character development (without any explanation!) in Char's Counterattack. Luckily, I watched CCA before finishing Zeta, or I would have been far more disappointed. As it was, at the time, I thought that despite it's well-animated action, it was still a extremely poor story. Now, my opinion of it is a little lower.

By the way, Obi-Wan, my favorite Gundam show is Victory, and it seems as if it's your least favorite – why haven't we ever had any issues over that?

[Obi-Wan]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

By the way, Obi-Wan, my favorite Gundam show is Victory, and it seems as if it's your least favorite – why haven't we ever had any issues over that?

I don't know. I'm on ep 29 and holding due to the utter boringness of it all. If I finish it before I'm old and senile I'll look you up but for now I'll take a rain check please. I don't trash talk Victory as much because I haven't finished it, and I wasn't told it was god's gift to Gundam going into it (only that it was like, second place behind Z). I'm definitely ready to go to sleep by the time I get to the midpoint of any Victory episode, though.

Apparently I'm in good company since I'm told the Victory Gundam DVD set in Japan comes with a foreword by Tomino saying not to watch it.

[maohayato]

camille can walk into bases and stuff unnoticed because he is "luke skywalker"

[dom33]

@mao if you haven't noticed every one has low securitymeasures in a gundam series.

@obi-wan do we have to go thru this again? if you see the last 1/4 of zeta gundam you'll see hints for his actions in cca. i'll talk about char in cca but that's gotten old.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by dom33

@obi-wan do we have to go thru this again? if you see the last 1/4 of zeta gundam you'll see hints for his actions in cca. i'll talk about char in cca but that's gotten old.

You must've missed the episode where Char said that he shall wait... for humanity to learn. Obviously being the impatient man he is, 6 years of wait is too long for a sublime dream of his.

Frankly, Char acting the way he is in CCA can be viewed in a skewed way, judging from how his fortitude of pursuing his ambitions of Spacenoids seems secondary to his bitchfight with Amuro. Even so, why the hell he intends to bring Lalah and his Amuro hate into the mix post-Zeta is another thing to ponder about. But that's off-topic.

[Tak]

I really did not like Char in CCA. He went completely backwards from Z. I thought he'd learn something, but apparently he didn't.

CCA is another one of Tomino's kill-em-all productions. But the most embrassing 'end' in CCA gotta be Char's. After all, he spent close to a quarter of the movie in Amuro's mercy.

- Tak

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by dom33

@mao if you haven't noticed every one has low securitymeasures in a gundam series.

Quite true. However it's arguable that the security in Zeta (and ZZ) is significantly worse than that in other Gundam shows. They could have turned their brig facilities into a drive-through, and it wouldn't have made much difference.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Frankly, Char acting the way he is in CCA can be viewed in a skewed way, judging from how his fortitude of pursuing his ambitions of Spacenoids seems secondary to his bitchfight with Amuro. Even so, why the hell he intends to bring Lalah and his Amuro hate into the mix post-Zeta is another thing to ponder about. But that's off-topic.

I'd say that this development is actually worse than the other one. Dropping a massive asteroid onto Earth in order to preserve Earth's environment(!) is an obvious sign of insanity, and it's quite possible for just about anyone to go crazy.

However, Quattro's most significant character growth was to bury the hatchet with Amuro. By the end of Zeta, if he had learned anything, it was that a feud over Lalah was childish, and was better left in the past. To regress a character without providing any explanation is just a sign of terrible writing.

Originally Posted by Tak

CCA is another one of Tomino's kill-em-all productions. But the most embrassing 'end' in CCA gotta be Char's. After all, he spent close to a quarter of the movie in Amuro's mercy.

Actually, that's sort of Char's role in Gundam. He basically loses every significant duel he's in throughout Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta, and Char's Counterattack. This actually works out rather well in Zeta, where the point of his character is that he fails at the most important tasks, but it's rather disappointing in the other works. Some people may see Char as some sort of super-ace, but his real role is to be the super loser.

[Gundam Pilot]

I'd said it before and I'll say it again! "Zeta Gundam" is the best classic gundam saga ever made!

[Gundam Pilot]

These are the gundams that are in the series Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam!



Zeta Gundam




Gundam Mk.(Mark) II

^Titans mobile suit^


^Aeug mobile suit^

[Gundam Pilot]

This picture shows the Zeta Gundam and in front of Amuro Ray and Char Aznable(Alias: Lt. Quattro) is Kamille Bidan the Zeta Gundam pilot!