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Old 2007-08-30, 04:50   Link #1421
stormy001_M1A2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom562 View Post
By you saying that your looking for translators I'm guessing none of it is in English...

So basically anything that relates to Fate Stay Night isn't in English and wont be for some time huh......

So there is nothing?? Nothing at all??
Learn Japanese, grasshopper. That's the truth.
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Old 2007-08-30, 09:51   Link #1422
iamandragon
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Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2 View Post
Learn Japanese, grasshopper. That's the truth.
Or Chinese. Most of the Japanese stuff, if popular enough, are usually translated in an instant. (Chinese subbers work at mad speed. They can sub an entire 3 episode OVA in one day, and there's only 2 members! And if not worse, I've seen people take scenes out from an erogame and turn it into a 4 episode OVA which fooled everyone into thinking there's an anime of it... no idea how they did it...)
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Old 2007-08-30, 10:42   Link #1423
•••Shadow•••
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Hello. I have a question about Fate/hollow ataraxia...
I haven't played it because I hate erogames and also because I wouldn't understand it (isn't translated yet)...
But I want to ask this... Is it true that Rider has fallen in love with Sakura there?
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Old 2007-08-30, 10:53   Link #1424
kureshii
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Originally Posted by iamandragon View Post
For the manga I've got the scripts in English, I'm just looking for editors to paste the words in the picture. And for the novels...I found a translator a few months ago, but he's been MIA ever since he got the chapters...
Ah, gomen dragon-san...

Story in short, Part 1 of Vol 1 is more than halfway through when term started, and due to some poor syllabus planning that I couldn't do anything about, I am now taking Linear Algebra I+II and Quantum Mechanics all in the same semester *tasukete... T_T*

I'll pick up where I left off once I can, since studying Quantum Mechanics requires a good grounding in Linear Algebra II, which obviously has Linear Algebra I as a prerequisite (and don't ask me how I ended up doing all 3 simultaneously >.<).

Some of the terms totally escape me though, and none of the dictionaries I have (or online translators) are able to help. I admit I am rather limited on the vocab side...
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Old 2007-09-06, 21:01   Link #1425
Lukannon
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Well what Gilgamesh says is not necessary always the truth. Born from the HG, gil has to be weaker than it. Remember the rule of magic? The child cannot be stronger than the parent. Since Gilgamesh is the child of the HG, he is weaker. Though he is too full of himself to hear out the curses. That is, of course, all theory. I can't prove it.
Gilgamesh IS weaker than the Holy Grail...although arguably, he's also stronger, which would be why Saber can destroy it. Twice. I don't think the 'strength' or 'power' of a Servant has anything to do with that, though. From what I've heard, the Holy Grail's contents taint a Servant's 'ego' upon contact, which I would assume to be like turning them evil. Gilgamesh just had too much pride or something to be altered in such a fundamental way by the Holy Grail's taint, although he did end up all crazy and stuff. >_<

I haven't played the actual game though, so I wouldn't know if I'm right or not.

On a related note, about the 'child VS father' thing...are you referring to what Gilgamesh talked about? I would think that'd be a more linear progression. The Holy Grail just created a copy of the Heroic Spirit 'Gilgamesh' to summon for the 4th HF. The copy of Gilgamesh stemmed from Gilgamesh the Heroic Spirit, not the Holy Grail.

I guess an analogy would be like saying Caliburn, as a Noble Phantasm, is superior to 5th HF's Archer. Archer creates Caliburn; Caliburn is the 'child' of Archer. However, because Caliburn, as a Noble Phantasm, didn't stem from Archer, but rather the sword 'Gram,' it can still be stronger than Archer.

Do you get what I'm saying?

Also, I've got a question. Anybody know how to access the fuyuki wiki right now? I had an archived version of it, but it's not working atm, and obviously, the original is baleeted.

Last edited by Lukannon; 2007-09-06 at 21:06. Reason: forgot
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Old 2007-09-07, 06:04   Link #1426
iamandragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukannon View Post
On a related note, about the 'child VS father' thing...are you referring to what Gilgamesh talked about? I would think that'd be a more linear progression. The Holy Grail just created a copy of the Heroic Spirit 'Gilgamesh' to summon for the 4th HF. The copy of Gilgamesh stemmed from Gilgamesh the Heroic Spirit, not the Holy Grail.
The HG created the copy of gilgamesh based on Gilgamesh the Heroic Spirit. If Gilgamesh is stronger the HG can't create it. If you play the game, in the very prologue, Rin actually said that it is impossible for anyone to summon/create familiars stronger than themselves when talking about masters summoning servants. This rule applies to both magicians and artifacts.

Quote:
I guess an analogy would be like saying Caliburn, as a Noble Phantasm, is superior to 5th HF's Archer. Archer creates Caliburn; Caliburn is the 'child' of Archer. However, because Caliburn, as a Noble Phantasm, didn't stem from Archer, but rather the sword 'Gram,' it can still be stronger than Archer.

Do you get what I'm saying?
Yes i do. But I think you're mistaken in a few points here. First, it's Shirou summoning Caliburn. Second, that's just a cheat, a bug in the story. And third, Archer does not create objects--it's impossible to create things out of nothing(courtesy of Rin again). All he does is just pulling blades out of his Reality Marble(in order words, Archer's just summoning blades from another world).

Quote:
Also, I've got a question. Anybody know how to access the fuyuki wiki right now? I had an archived version of it, but it's not working atm, and obviously, the original is baleeted.
Unfortunately, no idea...I really liked that site. Wondering why it has to be shut down...
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Old 2007-09-07, 15:17   Link #1427
Lukannon
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The HG created the copy of gilgamesh based on Gilgamesh the Heroic Spirit. If Gilgamesh is stronger the HG can't create it. If you play the game, in the very prologue, Rin actually said that it is impossible for anyone to summon/create familiars stronger than themselves when talking about masters summoning servants. This rule applies to both magicians and artifacts.
Familiars, or Servants? I'd think it's fairly obvious that for the most part, Servants heavily outclass the Masters. >_<

And I think I said this before, but a definition of 'strength' would be most useful here. It's obvious Servants can destroy the Holy Grail. Saber alone did it twice, and Ea's stronger than Excalibur. Do I believe that the Holy Grail is weaker? No. So it's kind of a slippery slope in and of itself to be talking about who is stronger than the Holy Grail.

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Yes i do. But I think you're mistaken in a few points here. First, it's Shirou summoning Caliburn.
5th HF Archer was just a random example, not an actual example from the story. Though IIRC, didn't he threaten to summon Caliburn and blow everyone up or something? Even though he didn't have enough mana.

Quote:
Second, that's just a cheat, a bug in the story.
That's impossible. You can't say 'there is a pattern, but for the purposes of the story, there is an unexplained aberration.' An aberration is either an explained aberration, or a break in the pattern. Shirou's brand of magic(or is it just thaumaturgy?) is unique, but I've yet to find any source saying that it actually breaks the established rules.

Quote:
And third, Archer does not create objects--it's impossible to create things out of nothing(courtesy of Rin again). All he does is just pulling blades out of his Reality Marble(in order words, Archer's just summoning blades from another world).
A semantic mistake. But doesn't Archer still need to create it within his Reality Marble?

On a related note, Unlimited Blade Works is a Reality Marble that provides all the materials Archer/Shirou needs to create their weapons, correct?

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Unfortunately, no idea...I really liked that site. Wondering why it has to be shut down...
The Internet being a butt. It explains everything.
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Old 2007-09-07, 18:08   Link #1428
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Originally Posted by Lukannon View Post
Familiars, or Servants? I'd think it's fairly obvious that for the most part, Servants heavily outclass the Masters. >_<

And I think I said this before, but a definition of 'strength' would be most useful here. It's obvious Servants can destroy the Holy Grail. Saber alone did it twice, and Ea's stronger than Excalibur. Do I believe that the Holy Grail is weaker? No. So it's kind of a slippery slope in and of itself to be talking about who is stronger than the Holy Grail.
"Stronger" in this sense usually means that the Holy Grail cannot summon anything that is on a higher plane than mortal. Heroic Spirits are mortals (since they obviously died), but Gods are not.

Quote:
5th HF Archer was just a random example, not an actual example from the story. Though IIRC, didn't he threaten to summon Caliburn and blow everyone up or something? Even though he didn't have enough mana.
It's Excalibur, not Caliburn.

Secondly, you misunderstand the concept. The legend of Caliburn derives from the legend of Gram, so therefore it is considered an "offspring" of it (and thus weaker). Then Archer's copy will be weaker than the original, since it is only a copy. The user of the weapon itself is rather irrelevant to this "father-son" concept.

Quote:
That's impossible. You can't say 'there is a pattern, but for the purposes of the story, there is an unexplained aberration.' An aberration is either an explained aberration, or a break in the pattern. Shirou's brand of magic(or is it just thaumaturgy?) is unique, but I've yet to find any source saying that it actually breaks the established rules.
I believe that she's referring to Caliburn itself.

Quote:
A semantic mistake. But doesn't Archer still need to create it within his Reality Marble?

On a related note, Unlimited Blade Works is a Reality Marble that provides all the materials Archer/Shirou needs to create their weapons, correct?
Correct. UBW provides the materials, while Archer/Shirou forges the swords.

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The Internet being a butt. It explains everything.
There's a TYPE-MOON Wiki being created at this moment.
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Old 2007-09-08, 04:27   Link #1429
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Well just because you're stronger doesn't mean you can't be destroyed by the weaker. *Points at the Archer>Gilgamesh>Berserker triangle*

As for Archer creating strong swords...there's no saying 'which sword is stronger'. If you let Shirou hold Excalibur and Saber hold a wooden sword, who would win? The answer is simple. Therefore, how 'strong' a weapon is determined by the wielder, not the weapon itself. The 'strong' we usually talk about weapons is how much potential it can unleash of the wielder. Excalibur is 'strong' because it has the potential to release a beam cannon if the wielder feeds it enough mana and is named Saber. The wooden sword is 'weak' because even if Saber channels excess mana into it, it will break due to bad structure.

T-Moon wiki? Where? Where?
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Old 2007-09-08, 13:21   Link #1430
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Originally Posted by iamandragon View Post
Well just because you're stronger doesn't mean you can't be destroyed by the weaker. *Points at the Archer>Gilgamesh>Berserker triangle*

As for Archer creating strong swords...there's no saying 'which sword is stronger'. If you let Shirou hold Excalibur and Saber hold a wooden sword, who would win? The answer is simple. Therefore, how 'strong' a weapon is determined by the wielder, not the weapon itself. The 'strong' we usually talk about weapons is how much potential it can unleash of the wielder. Excalibur is 'strong' because it has the potential to release a beam cannon if the wielder feeds it enough mana and is named Saber. The wooden sword is 'weak' because even if Saber channels excess mana into it, it will break due to bad structure.

T-Moon wiki? Where? Where?
I don't think we're comparing completely different weapons to each other (that'll be comparing something like Gae Bolg to Rule Breaker). True, the user of the weapon is very important, as the user could be tied into the legend of the Noble Phantasm (like Saber and Caliburn). However, even with that, the legend's predecessor will still be stronger, which is why I'm saying that the user of the weapon doesn't change the "successor is weaker than the predecessor" power structure.

Also:

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/TYPE-MOON_Wiki
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Old 2007-09-08, 19:24   Link #1431
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Originally Posted by Archer View Post
I don't think we're comparing completely different weapons to each other (that'll be comparing something like Gae Bolg to Rule Breaker). True, the user of the weapon is very important, as the user could be tied into the legend of the Noble Phantasm (like Saber and Caliburn). However, even with that, the legend's predecessor will still be stronger, which is why I'm saying that the user of the weapon doesn't change the "successor is weaker than the predecessor" power structure.
A weapon is a weapon. If excalibur is lying around without an owner, even Shinji can beat it. (that's a really bad example isn't it...)

A magician doesn't need to be extremely strong to create a weapon. They need to be strong to create the materials, but if the materials are all present, there is no much effort needed when making the blades. You can't compare a person with a weapon. You can compare a weapon with another weapon, but if you ignore the materials bit, the only difficulty lies in complexity, which is an extremely easy job for Shirou/Archer to solve. (come on a sword can't be more complicated than a heater can it?) And with their Reality Marble providing them all the materials needed, tracing is made easy for them.

As for "successor is weaker than the predecessor"...can you explain a bit more in detail what are you trying to express? Examples please, if possible.
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Old 2007-09-08, 21:04   Link #1432
Lukannon
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"Stronger" in this sense usually means that the Holy Grail cannot summon anything that is on a higher plane than mortal. Heroic Spirits are mortals (since they obviously died), but Gods are not.
O i c

Quote:
It's Excalibur, not Caliburn.
My mistake.

Quote:
Secondly, you misunderstand the concept. The legend of Caliburn derives from the legend of Gram, so therefore it is considered an "offspring" of it (and thus weaker). Then Archer's copy will be weaker than the original, since it is only a copy. The user of the weapon itself is rather irrelevant to this "father-son" concept.
That's my ENTIRE POINT, tho. The weakness of the analogy would be the 'user...' in this case, comparing the creation of the Caliburn copy by Archer to the creation of the Gilgamesh copy by the Holy Grail.

Although with the new definition of 'stronger,' it's gotten to the point where I don't even know what I'm arguing anymore.

Quote:
I believe that she's referring to Caliburn itself.
...Still not following you here. -3-

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There's a TYPE-MOON Wiki being created at this moment.
I know(I've actually posted in a few of the talk sections, not that I'm actually contributing), but atm, it's not nearly as comprehensive as fuyuki used to be. Obviously, since it was just made, but anyway.

EDIT:

On the sword debate, I'm just butting in for the heck of it. Don't take my stuff at face value, since Archer obviously knows a lot more than me and will likely make me look like an idiot if I'm being one.

That wasn't sarcasm, just in case.

A weapon inherently has power. The user is the one that determines the actual outcome of the battle, but weapons are inherently superior and inferior to one another. It's not a matter of 'the weapon is only a conduit for the user's potential.' The weapon has its own advantages and disadvantages that it brings. Those advantages and disadvantages are its 'strength.'

Although in the case of Noble Phantasms, it's really the strength of the legend more than the weapon's actual attributes, I guess, so meh.

The 'successor VS predecessor' is the 'father vs son' thing you were talking about with the Holy Grail. A bit ironic. Gram VS Caliburn and stuff.

And I'd think it plausible that a high-quality sword(folded steel, etc.) could be more complicated than a heater, but I really don't wanna get into that.

Last edited by Lukannon; 2007-09-08 at 21:16.
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Old 2007-09-09, 03:38   Link #1433
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Ahh. So I see the problem here. You're one of the believer that weapons have their own souls/poiwer while I'm one of the believers that a weapon is just a weapon, a power transformer which can allow the user to increase their output. We're on a different channel, no wonder no wonder.

Well let's follow your case, if a weapon has its own power, yes, then it'll be impossible for Shirou to reproduce it in the first place. But then how can you explain about Shirou tracing all the powerful weapons in the first place?

And the 'successor VS predecessor' is applied in a improper place here. Shirou and Archer are NOT the father of the weapons. They're only the forger of the fakes. The father of the weapons are the original ones in Gilgamesh's treasure box. ALL the weapons they trace are weaker than the original because it's a fake. Even if you give Shirou and Archer ten times of the mana they can still create a wooden sword with crapper quality than the original one. But if Shirou really want, he can still use the fake weapons with the same power output of the original by using broken phantasm...

And a high quality sword, can be a little bit complex, but a heater still more complex than it. I knew that because my master is a weapon smith and I'm studying materials :P
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Old 2007-09-09, 09:54   Link #1434
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Since your master is a weapon smith, can you tell me uh.... at the end of the blade and in the hilt, the piece that holds the blade and the hilt together, is it just a long piece of skinny metal the size of pencil but longer? I bought 2 swords that broke because that part was poorly forged.
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Old 2007-09-09, 10:40   Link #1435
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Originally Posted by Iknowwhatyou View Post
Since your master is a weapon smith, can you tell me uh.... at the end of the blade and in the hilt, the piece that holds the blade and the hilt together, is it just a long piece of skinny metal the size of pencil but longer? I bought 2 swords that broke because that part was poorly forged.
It depends. A very good sword has the hilt and the blade all forged in one go. However modern blades often have the hilt and the blade forged separately, with a pin that joins them together. I believe yours if of the later case, if you talk about the long piece of skinny metal. No big deal, just go find a nut and bolt of appropiate size and replace that part. You can try use a hammer and a (blunt) nail to knock out the broken pin. Also you might want to use some sealant to tighten the fitting. I recommend those silicone sealant since they are more shock resistant, meaning that their chemical bonding (goo-iness) won't loose even if you put the sword on some dynamic shock.
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Old 2007-09-09, 16:01   Link #1436
Heismann
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How do i continue after the fate route?

Hi, I just completed the fate route in f/sn. So I wonder how do I play the UBW route? I got this message at the end, play from day 3 or something, and then the game saves, but I can`t see any new saves. Just wonder how to get it started , cuz I really want play all the routes. Please someone help a noob like me.
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Old 2007-09-09, 17:38   Link #1437
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Ahh. So I see the problem here. You're one of the believer that weapons have their own souls/poiwer while I'm one of the believers that a weapon is just a weapon, a power transformer which can allow the user to increase their output. We're on a different channel, no wonder no wonder.
No. ALL weapons inherently have power. Not all weapons can actually use that power autonomously; an AK-47(well, at least if it's loaded) inherently has the power to penetrate a certain amount of a certain material at a certain rate a certain amount of times. This is not reliant on the user; the user is the one who actually puts it into effect, and because of that, the weapon might not be used as well(ie the AK-47 misses), but the weapon inherently has power.

It's not even a matter of 'soul/power' of a Noble Phantasm; every weapon inherently has attributes that are going to be labeled as 'power.' To use a classic example, the average fielded katana is inherently more powerful than the average fielded longsword(by fielded I mean actually made for use in the proper era). It isn't a matter of it being better at drawing out the user's skill; it's more durable, better balanced, cuts better, etc.

Unless your belief is that the weapon is like a 'function,' where it's something like f(user's strength) = end result. But that's just ridiculous.

Quote:
Well let's follow your case, if a weapon has its own power, yes, then it'll be impossible for Shirou to reproduce it in the first place. But then how can you explain about Shirou tracing all the powerful weapons in the first place?
I'm not following you here. What are you talking about? A weapon is a weapon. If the weapon has some sort of added attribute, that attribute is added during Projection by imagining the effect.

From what I gathered, normally, the Projections are inefficient because not everything is internalized, and Reinforcing an existing object to an equivalent state would be a better use of mana. And Shiro is unique in that while Projecting, he can imagine every internal and external aspect of the weapon for a perfect(well, near-perfect) replication.

Quote:
And the 'successor VS predecessor' is applied in a improper place here. Shirou and Archer are NOT the father of the weapons. They're only the forger of the fakes. The father of the weapons are the original ones in Gilgamesh's treasure box. ALL the weapons they trace are weaker than the original because it's a fake. Even if you give Shirou and Archer ten times of the mana they can still create a wooden sword with crapper quality than the original one. But if Shirou really want, he can still use the fake weapons with the same power output of the original by using broken phantasm...
This is the point I was making, but I think Archer was referring to the 'successor VS predecessor' scenario in the line of 'Gram VS Caliburn,' in reference to your 'Saber+wooden sword > Shiro+Excalibur.'

I don't really get it the progression of logic in this case though, so don't ask me.

Quote:
And a high quality sword, can be a little bit complex, but a heater still more complex than it. I knew that because my master is a weapon smith and I'm studying materials :P
Well, specifically, I mean stuff like the folding of the steel. To the best of my knowledge, a heater's components just aren't made like that; in it's case, it's a matter of understanding how the separate components fit together. In the sword's case, it would be understanding how the blade was made. On the other hand, folding was to remove the impurities of the steel(IIRC), so I suppose that it would still just be a piece of metal.

So you're probably right, in hindsight.
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Old 2007-09-09, 20:45   Link #1438
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Originally Posted by Heismann View Post
Hi, I just completed the fate route in f/sn. So I wonder how do I play the UBW route? I got this message at the end, play from day 3 or something, and then the game saves, but I can`t see any new saves. Just wonder how to get it started , cuz I really want play all the routes. Please someone help a noob like me.
Here is the walkthrough in Japanese. If you're playing the scenario to unlock stuff, I suggest to download a complete save instead. If not, but you don't know Japanese, then I would wait for Mirror Moon's UBW translation to finish (it's under editing process, hopefully it will be done soon ).
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Old 2007-09-10, 06:36   Link #1439
Heismann
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I`m actualy just wondering how I start the UBW scenario. Just finished the fate route (sabers route) , but I can`t seem to find any new routes..
After then FIN screen , it says saved as [f4] ,lower right corner. But , what does that mean, I see no save..
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Old 2007-09-11, 14:10   Link #1440
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Originally Posted by Lukannon View Post
No. ALL weapons inherently have power. Not all weapons can actually use that power autonomously; an AK-47(well, at least if it's loaded) inherently has the power to penetrate a certain amount of a certain material at a certain rate a certain amount of times. This is not reliant on the user; the user is the one who actually puts it into effect, and because of that, the weapon might not be used as well(ie the AK-47 misses), but the weapon inherently has power.
Well that's why I say we're on different channels. And I think using a gun isn't a good example for it. For modern weapons, the power of the weapon actually depends on the ammo you feed in. Some weapons are more powerful because they are capable of firing more penetrating bullets and can guide them better--which is similar to my theory. Excalibur = AK 47, mana = bullet, Saber = barrel of gun.

Quote:
It's not even a matter of 'soul/power' of a Noble Phantasm; every weapon inherently has attributes that are going to be labeled as 'power.' To use a classic example, the average fielded katana is inherently more powerful than the average fielded longsword(by fielded I mean actually made for use in the proper era). It isn't a matter of it being better at drawing out the user's skill; it's more durable, better balanced, cuts better, etc.
Shouldn't a longsword be more powerful than a katana...People often have this misunderstanding: only those very well made katana are as strong as you imagine. If both longsword and katana are made by smiths of the same level, a longsword will be stronger, due to their structures. A longsword is in general thicker and heavier than a katana in feature. Although not as sharp, it is more suited for clashing with other weapons, and its attack zones are much bigger than that of a katana. While katana has its advantage on sharpness, its weight prevents it to be wielded with extreme speed like those Chinese swords, so using a katana to duel with a longsword wielder is not ideal, as longsword users are often trained with a shield. A katana can cut through armors, but it is only limited to the joints: it is not capable of cutting through solid metal. That is, if the opponent of the katana is a knight wearing a plate armor on a battle field, the katana will be even less useful than in a duel. While the wielder can use thrusting patterns for this case, it is better if they switch to a rapier. (Of course the Japanese doesn't have rapiers, but a rapier is the best weapon for foot swordsman to fight a knight in plate armor. I personally don't have knowledge how a katana user in the past battle those English knights. Afterall, I'm not a weapon user)

there there, getting all fired up in my specialty again...forgive me...

Quote:
Unless your belief is that the weapon is like a 'function,' where it's something like f(user's strength) = end result. But that's just ridiculous.
*cries* Waa...I'm being laughed at...

Quote:
I'm not following you here. What are you talking about? A weapon is a weapon. If the weapon has some sort of added attribute, that attribute is added during Projection by imagining the effect.
That being said. If the weapon inherently have power, Shirou is to will need mana to also replicate them.

Quote:
From what I gathered, normally, the Projections are inefficient because not everything is internalized, and Reinforcing an existing object to an equivalent state would be a better use of mana. And Shiro is unique in that while Projecting, he can imagine every internal and external aspect of the weapon for a perfect(well, near-perfect) replication.
Hmm...Projections are inefficient because the weapon has to be created from scratch, not because not everything is internalized. The later is the reason for the projected weapon to be weaker than the original one. The word inefficient is used when comparing with reinforcing.
As for Shirou's uniqueness in projecting...play the game, it'll take too long to explain here...


Quote:
Well, specifically, I mean stuff like the folding of the steel. To the best of my knowledge, a heater's components just aren't made like that; in it's case, it's a matter of understanding how the separate components fit together. In the sword's case, it would be understanding how the blade was made. On the other hand, folding was to remove the impurities of the steel(IIRC), so I suppose that it would still just be a piece of metal.

So you're probably right, in hindsight.
My uncle works in a metal molding factory and I've seen him make the holder for a table lamp. You won't believe how much process it takes to just make the dome shape...The piece of metal sheet first gets cut, then holes a punched into it and then it's fed into a 30 meters tall gundam...woops I mean machine to be punched in shape--and that takes 3 steps. Well we can compare that with the outershell of the heater...Now let's dont mind the wiring...

Last edited by iamandragon; 2007-09-11 at 14:25.
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