US Elections 2016 Part I: The Debates & Primaries/Caucus

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Solace

Third Way politics is a failure. It always has been. Well, it did make a lot of "progressives" extremely rich. So there's that. But in terms of being a better option than the GOP? No, it's a failure.

Of course, Third Way is a freaking joke. Isn't 90% of them are Investment Bankers, as pointed out here (at 1:40)?

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

really you guy are just go hold that one vote against her forever?

let me put his one here:

Bernie Sanders vote for Shield Liability law for the gun manufactures therefore Sander is nothing more then a NRA stooge.

holding one single vote against either candidate is stupid especially since it is over a decade.

If you don't like Hillary just state you don't like her. No need to try to cover yourself with a fig leaf like the Iraq war vote.

Wasn't just that one vote on Iraq through. And yes, I know Obama is in this too. But wasn't during her time as US Secretary of States, when the US topple Gaddafi and turn Lybia into the current failed state? Which was in violation of the War Powers Resolution and the official opposition of the U.S. Congress (which she still defend it even now)? Then ship the whole arsenal from Gaddafi to arm the Syrian rebel against Assad? The large component of that is now part of the ISIS and al-Nursa (Syrian Al Qaeda)?

Her (and the Democratic establishment) hawkish view regard international politic is equivalent to Republican moderate a couple of decades ago to be honest. If she is in the White House, the only thing that could stop her from going bombing Syria or Iran will be the presence of Russia there, not because of the American public. And that's why Yemen should be awared of being next in line

Talking about Yemen, don't forget the strong link between Hillary with the Saudi. The later practically is committing the sort of human right abuse and war crime in Yemen that Saddam, Gaddafi and Assad were all famous for: publicly hang dissent, ethnic cleansing and bomb civilians.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Of course, Third Way is a freaking joke. Isn't 90% of them are Investment Bankers, as pointed out here (at 1:40)?

Wasn't just that one vote on Iraq through. And yes, I know Obama is in this too. But wasn't during her time as US Secretary of States, when the US topple Gaddafi and turn Lybia into the current failed state? Which was in violation of the War Powers Resolution and the official opposition of the U.S. Congress (which she still defend it even now)? Then ship the whole arsenal from Gaddafi to arm the Syrian rebel against Assad? The large component of that is now part of the ISIS and al-Nursa (Syrian Al Qaeda)?

1. Obama was her boss. Obama makes the ultimate call on policies. Clinton's job is to advise then carried out her boss's order.

2. It was the BRITISH AND FRENCH military who help topple Gaddafi. The debacle in Syria, you can on Obama and the US but Lybia? Put the blame where it belongs, the British and the French.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

1. Obama was her boss. Obama makes the ultimate call on policies. Clinton's job is to advise then carried out her boss's order.

2. It was the BRITISH AND FRENCH military who help topple Gaddafi. The debacle in Syria, you can on Obama and the US but Lybia? Put the blame where it belongs, the British and the French.

I don't think you can shift all the blame on British and the French here.

The French for example sent in roughly 50 airplanes for the bombing of Lybia. UK sent in around more than 30 airplanes. US? About 80 airplanes in total. Admitting 30 of them were refueling tanker. But the US at very least involved as much in Lybia as the two countries you mentioned (at most, half of what the whole coalition forces did).

On whether it was Hillary fault or not. I'm not saying that it was her decision, just like how it was not her who started the Iraq War. But she was supporting the Iraq War then, and still defend the toppling of Gaddafi until this day (even if assume that she had no say at all on the decision to bomb Lybia). That's why I have very little confidence that she won't start another war/ bombing another country when it comes to her turn

[SeijiSensei]

Last weekend Cruz, Huckabee, and Jindal spoke at a forum in Iowa organized by a pastor who proposes that all homosexuals be executed. He made his views abundantly clear before the candidates took the stage. Before the event Cruz claimed he didn't know much about the host's views, though this was not the first time the pastor expressed this opinion. Still Cruz would have had to be wearing earplugs not to have known the pastor's views after he gave his opening remarks.

I would like to hear him asked about this appearance in tonight's debate (with similar questions for Jindal and Huckabee at the "kids' table" debate), but I doubt Fox Business News would pose such a "gotcha" question.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show (starts at 6:00)

By the way, throwing gays off a cliff or stoning them to death seemed to be the prescribed methods for execution.

[james0246]

Rubio continues to impress. Of all the candidates on stage, he was heads and tails above the rest. That being said, Cruz, Kasich, and Trump also had good nights, and even Paul managed to make himself seem relevant (at last ). Carson...the vast majority of his night was just as boring as ever, but then he pulled out a massive closing remark. Chilling as well, but damn powerful rhetoric.

Have to say though, damn were those questions weak. Fox just knows how to throw low ball questions that feed into the egos of all involved. NBC, for all their silly faults, actually attempted some real questions. I guess the candidates were able to bitch just enough to the point were reality became even further removed from their campaigns and debates...

[risingstar3110]

It's still too hard for me to take the current GOP seriously. Considering that their two front runners are also the two most likely to drop out while being front runner. I guess that's the reason why Rand Paul, Cruz, Kasich and Jeb still hold on, in hoping that once Carson and Trump drop out, they may get the bigger shares from those two support groups.


Meanwhile, I think I just found the perfect example summing up Democratic Primaries. With the environmental group LCV just came out with Hillary endorsement , despite this is the same organisation that rated and gave Bernie Sanders a much stronger voting record on environmental issues (95% to Hillary's 82%).

So yes, that alone summed up the Democratic side of this election for me: even if you objectively believe Sanders is a better candidature regarding the issues that you concerned, you will vote for Hillary anyway.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

It's still too hard for me to take the current GOP seriously. Considering that their two front runners are also the two most likely to drop out while being front runner. I guess that's the reason why Rand Paul, Cruz, Kasich and Jeb still hold on, in hoping that once Carson and Trump drop out, they may get the bigger shares from those two support groups.


Meanwhile, I think I just found the perfect example summing up Democratic Primaries. With the environmental group LCV just came out with Hillary endorsement , despite this is the same organisation that rated and gave Bernie Sanders a much stronger voting record on environmental issues (95% to Hillary's 82%).

So yes, that alone summed up the Democratic side of this election for me: even if you objectively believe Sanders is a better candidature regarding the issues that you concerned, you will vote for Hillary anyway.

Of course most groups would vote for Hillary. She's an establishment president unlike Bernie. That ain't stopping me from voting Bernie though (or trump if it comes to Hillary vs trump)

[solomon]

Meh, thanks to sites like Ontheissues.com where you can just look at how people voted and such

I really don't see the point of debates anymore. It's just entertainment and it's made even worse by the out right managing of the debate field by the media. Even GOP's beloved FOX News got in on it by screening candidates via their poll numbers.........reeeaaaaallllllllllll democratic there. Such a farce.

Now this Paris incident could be used to the GOP's advantage by whipping people up into a foriegn policy and security frenzy. That's a wild card.

Otherwise, easy money on Hilary UNLESS the GOP actually decides to field Rubio to play for the Hispanic vote.

[james0246]

^Rubio is a shoe-in for vice president, in my opinion.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Still, Rubio is quite likely to make enough blunders for himself as much as Ryan and Palin did after they became VP nominees.

[risingstar3110]

I will frankly be honest. I guess the internet is generally much more progressive, so it's easy to make fun of Conservative Republican. Of them being silly and downright stupid sometime.

But there was that part on Hillary that being circulated around the net from yesterday; when she was invoking 9/11 when people questioned on her taking donations from Wall Street. And then being applauded by the Democrat audiences for her non-answers.

Normally that would just be sad at how desperate Hillary is when being confronted by her link to Wall Street, and how silly the progressive audiences also are. But it was just really funny when, I guess it's not only me, people started to link that to the Family Guy episode where Lois did the same thing and also got the same applaud.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Still, Rubio is quite likely to make enough blunders for himself as much as Ryan and Palin did after they became VP nominees.

Actually, Rubio has been in the public eye longer and has been more heavily scrutinized for longer than either Palin or Ryan pre-nomination (Palin had little to no public record outside of Alaska previous to her nomination, and Ryan was really only known for his budget, but at least that was national news). Rubio has been in the public eye since his gigantic gaffe after the 2013 State of the Union address. And since he has started with such a gaffe, he has continuously gotten better (unlike Jindal who has been consistently awful).

[risingstar3110]

A glitch from the DNC system allowed some of the Bernie staffer to access on Hillary's voter files for 30 minutes before they notified the DNC. And surprised, surprised, instead of investigating onto the cause with the system provider and fix the issue, the DNC suspended the whole Bernie Sanders campaign until further investigation was made.

Well played. Very well played

[Ithekro]

We need better humans to run for office. Not better politicians.

[Solace]

Just finished catching up on this. I think the Sanders campaign just got all the press coverage it could ever want, for better or worse.

[risingstar3110]

It's already getting big as Sander's campaign manager just publicly denounced DNC 's action as heavy-handed tactic and threaten to bring the situation onto court.

This was then followed up with the DFA (the 1 million men public organization who just endorsed Sanders in the same day) already mobilise their number on to set up petition against DNC decision, followed with Sanders' own camp setting up public petition that so far already collected more than 150,000 signatures.

Bernie campaign actually could unexpectedly come out of this stronger than it was before

[Ithekro]

Clintons are not exactly clean when it comes to underhanded tactics to get elected.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

We need better humans to run for office. Not better politicians.

How is better humans running suppose to help? Someone has to support the deport all refugees and ban Islam movement. Better humans running wouldn't help if they don't get voted in.

Watching the new Star Wars film made me realise that Fascism is appealing, even seductive, to normal people. That the problem isn't bad politicians but that only bad politicians can get supporters. Because voters WANT bad politicians. Voters want politicians who are just as bad as themselves.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

How is better humans running suppose to help? Someone has to support the deport all refugees and ban Islam movement. Better humans running wouldn't help if they don't get voted in.

Watching the new Star Wars film made me realise that Fascism is appealing, even seductive, to normal people. That the problem isn't bad politicians but that only bad politicians can get supporters. Because voters WANT bad politicians. Voters want politicians who are just as bad as themselves.

It just reminds me of all the times in Star Trek where they indicate how humanity went through nuclear war and its attendant post-apocalyptic horrors in order to achieve the Federation system they have. It really does stink that it seems to be the case more likely than not in real life too all things considered, if humanity survives the experience.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Clintons are not exactly clean when it comes to underhanded tactics to get elected.

name me a politician that is clean.