[Manga] Chapter 464 Discussion

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

Since C had clear knowledge of the power of Itachi's Amaterasu, it appears that Itachi has used the technique multiple non-disclosed times, to the point where foreign agents were able to learn the name as well as Itachi's proficiency with the technique. So, Itachi used the MS far more than 6-10 times.

As earlier explained by Hunter: Konoha gave all of their info on the Uchiha to raikage's team. Danzou gave all the information to others, just like in the case when he gave information to Orochi on ANBU secret agents, the old guy seems to be an idiot. Also at the kage summit he gave away the recent info on the existence of Madara, so i guess he knows everything that Kakashi and Naruto learned in their battles.
But i agree that Itachi probably used his MS more than 10 times, he not only mastered it but gave to his susano two legendary items too. But for plot reasons it may very well be that Kishi will speed up the process of Sasuke becoming blind.

Kishimoto has put a lot of effort in writing a plot where Danzou is somehow always saved, for example right now he is saved by Madara and Sasuke, because the other 4 kages were about to turn against him when Zetsu interrupted. Trying to keep Danzou in the hokage position is becoming an annoying part of the story, simply because it's not beliveable to me that an old shitty guy who needs Kabuto's help to regrow his arm is able to keep up as leader of one of the 5 great villages while other villages have leaders like the raikage or gaara. Maybe Kishi created the rock kage to lessen the contrast, so that Danzou is not the only shitty old and weak kage there

[Sazelyt]

Well, there were guesses regarding Gaara intercepting before, so even though I can say I found it silly for that to happen at this crucial time, it is still not surprising.

[SpyderSidiouss]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

such a assumption could be very wrong.

Difference is though, yours is very wrong considering the facts in the manga totally contradict it

Just to give a quick a recap on the MS, for those of you who like to daydream your own ideas about the manga and start believing them as facts: once a ninja gains the MS, their eyes begin to decend to blindess, regardless of whether or not they use the MS techniques. Usage of the MS techniques only hastens the effect.

So, considering Itachi had his MS for several years, compared to Sasuke's, - what, several weeks - no, he shouldn't be blind yet at all. As a matter of fact, if we're comparing his MS effect to Itachi's, Sasuke's decent to blindess has actually been much faster than it should be considering the very first time he willfully used it, his eye started bleeding, whereas when Itachi used it to escape Jiraiya's technique (after using Tsukuyomi btw), his eye didn't bleed or show really serious side effects. And by that period in time, Itachi already had his MS for years.

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Itachi is and was soo skilled that i truly doubt it was needed for him to use MS as often as Sasuke has to...to survive.

Im pretty sure he would need to make use of his MS abilities pretty often if he kept fighting against Kage leveled opponents whose abilities are perfect counters to his.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

As earlier explained by Hunter: Konoha gave all of their info on the Uchiha to raikage's team. Danzou gave all the information to others, just like in the case when he gave information to Orochi on ANBU secret agents, the old guy seems to be an idiot. Also at the kage summit he gave away the recent info on the existence of Madara, so i guess he knows everything that Kakashi and Naruto learned in their battles.

Konoha has next to no knowledge of the Amaterasu, let alone Itachi's proficiency with the technique. You can make a slight case supporting the idea that Konoha provided info concerning the Tsukuyomi (realistically Konoha probably only provided info on Sasuke, not the Uchiha clan as a whole), but even that is unsure. In the end, C's comment can only truly be understood as personal knowledge gained from either experience or something a Kumo shinobi gained (for instance, if the Kumo-nin that observed the Kirabi fight provided a report that let C understand Sasuke's use of the black flame, that would have been okay, but C directly mentions Itachi, something he could only know if other Kumo-nin had observed Itachi in the past).

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by james0246

Konoha has next to no knowledge of the Amaterasu, let alone Itachi's proficiency with the technique.

Maybe Jiraiya sealing portion of the Jutsu has something to do with that..afterall, didnt Kakashi could tell right away the flames of amaterasu when he saw it after teh Sasuke and itachi fight?

Besides that, kakashi has been shown to be a trerrific analitical mind, and with his experience with his MS jutsu and how he saw Itachi work with Tsukijomy could had help him understand better amaterasu, either way, is like Hunter said in the previous thread..You also have to count that Kishimoto spirit is there wiht them guiding those character so they can comment about it.

[james0246]

^The sealed Amaterasu is in no way indicitive of Itachi profficiency with the technique.

That ebing said, I understand the point that C was only speaking what Kishimoto wanted the audience to know, I just would have preffered if it was Zetsu or someone else that had already been confirmed to have knowledge of Itachi's and Sasuke's Amaterasu.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by james0246

^The sealed Amaterasu is in no way indicitive of Itachi profficiency with the technique.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Besides that, kakashi has been shown to be a trerrific analitical mind, and with his experience with his MS jutsu and how he saw Itachi work with Tsukijomy could had help him understand better amaterasu..

At the end, even the fact that Itachi could had used that Jutsu against this village should had been an indicator. the other villages have also used akatsuki as mercenaries, so the whole secret organization thing was just a understament at the begining.

[iBeast]

Itachi has fought countless battles...He used his MS techniques in every last 1 of those battles...he's too lazy for taijutu...it's genjutsu with the sharingan 24/7 baby.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by james0246

Konoha has next to no knowledge of the Amaterasu, let alone Itachi's proficiency with the technique.

I have my doubts regarding the first part of that statement.

Amaterasu was probably not used in/against Konoha ever since Shodai's fight against Madara. So, to show their respect to the clan, Konoha might have restricted access to information like these during the times of peace. And after the Uchiha massacre, considering that it happened as a result of Hokage's orders, there was no threat coming from Itachi. So, there was no reason to enclose that information either.

Still, as the legends go, some people may still have access to such information through what they have heard from other people. That of course includes people from other villages too.

And about Itachi, as long as you have someone like Orochimaru in a story, access to such information does not become too difficult (let's also not forget about Danzou's suspicious actions, he might have also slipped that information during sometime of his career of betrayal).

So far, only Susanoo is shown as an unknown ability. It would be really tragic if information regarding that technique becomes also widely known.

[Kotengu]

Garra is awsome. Unfortunately the Naruto manga seems a bit loath to finish off characters. Lee, Garra, and Neji would be better off dead right now. I think their deaths would have had meaning. Especially if Lee died in surgury(taking Guy with him). I love the characters, but they don't do anything.

As far as Garra dying in the near future, I don't think so. If he did that would mean Kishi would have to make a new Kazekage worthy character. No one has the ballz to step into that position and garra actually has pretty good jutsu to back himself up in a fight(prolly coulda beat d if he wasn't a goody good).

As far as blocking raitonjutsu. I know he uses sand, but I never saw any evidence that he's actually using Earth chakra aside from the fact that he's physically using sand. If he's not controling the sand with an elemental chakra, then it shouldn't have a specific weakness to an elemental chakra.(yes I know Chidori pwned him b4) Raikage's jutsu doesn't speciallize in Pearcing like chidori so I don't know it would have the same effect as itAlso his jutsu was an extrapalation of the 3rd kazekage's magnetism jutsu. I really don't think that one would be considered earth jutsu or would be weak against raiton even if it was. electromagnetism potential would be rediculous.

In reality sandbags are WAY better protection from guns and explosives than the same density concrete because the kinetic energy is more evenly dispersed and diffused instead of directly resisted at a single point.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Amaterasu was probably not used in/against Konoha ever since Shodai's fight against Madara. So, to show their respect to the clan, Konoha might have restricted access to information like these during the times of peace. And after the Uchiha massacre, considering that it happened as a result of Hokage's orders, there was no threat coming from Itachi. So, there was no reason to enclose that information either.

Still, as the legends go, some people may still have access to such information through what they have heard from other people. That of course includes people from other villages too.

And about Itachi, as long as you have someone like Orochimaru in a story, access to such information does not become too difficult (let's also not forget about Danzou's suspicious actions, he might have also slipped that information during sometime of his career of betrayal).

So far, only Susanoo is shown as an unknown ability. It would be really tragic if information regarding that technique becomes also widely known.

That's very perceptive of you. I like it.

If the legendary battle at VoTE was later told to later generations, there's no reason why Uchiha Madara, who was regarded as one of the strongest people around at that time, wouldn't be accurately described. He would've been feared for his eye's jutsu.

It's not entirely impossible to expect other ninja villages to know a small part of the story of one of the most powerful/famous clans out there: The Uchiha. If anything, their reputation must have made it hard to keep secrets. (Which is why they needed hidden rooms where they would keep tablets relating to some of the powers of the Sharingan)

Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi were most likely techniques that were known and (rightly) feared.

Back on topic:

Raikage can grow back arms! How awesome is that man!

[james0246]

^Whether their is info on Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi in all the villages has never really been my point (in fact, it has never been my point that the various villages did not know of Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi (that was just Flipskuul's misinterpretation of my post)), rather, to repeat myself, the fact that C has specific knowledge of Itachi's proficieny with Amaterasu could only have been gained if Kumo, or someone Kumo trusts, had witnessed Itachi's perform the technique, and was able to determine Itachi's basic proficiency with said technique. Knowing of the Amaterasu does not give C the ability to comment on Sasuke performeance versus Itachi's, only specific knowledge of Itachi allows for such a comparison. Consequently, the assumption that Itachi has used his MS abilities outside of Konoha battles is more or less confirmed (or at least more confirmed than the assumption that Itachi has only used the MS 10 times total).

Again, to make myself perfectly clear, this entire conversation has been about Itachi using the MS at other points not currently disclosed in the series (i.e. random battles/missions he performed while working for Akatsuki, etc). C had specific knowledge by which he could make a specific comparison between Itachi and Sasuke, but nothing in the known Konoha info banks would have allowed such a comparison (no Rurik, Kakashi couldn't have created a workable supposition that would allow anyone to compare Sasuke and Itachi's Amaterasu based on a sealed Amaterasu - that would be like determining that Deidara can create CO simply because you have a sample of C4). So, C had to have gained info from a source outside of the info Konoha just provided. And, if he gained info from a source outside of Konoha, the number of times that Itachi has used the MS becomes unknown.

edit: And yes, it looks like C is going to regrow the Raikage's lost limb...which makes you wonder why Darui was so upset/startled last chapter...

Honestly, since Kishimoto brought in the mass revival from Dragon Ball/Z, I guess he felt he also wanted to bring in Piccolo's regeneration abilities .

Seriously though, here's hoping that C is at least using a version of the technique Shizune used in Part I to heal Neji, or else C just effortlessly made himself the best medic in the entire series...

That being said, good job on the Raikage in assembling his team. Unlike Gaara's team (which is a hodge-podge of abilities/techniques that do not necessarily work together), the Raikage has a great set-up of overwhelming Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu all found on one team. This is probably the best overall team we have seen in quite awhile...

[Frenchie]

Hm. Different interpretation, I guess.

There's of course room for error when it comes to the translation quality.
Not only that, but maybe we're assuming a bit too fast what C actually means. It could simply be a way to express his disbelief. By that, I mean he might truly be wondering -if- Sasuke is more skilled at Amaterasu than his elder brother, if he's never heard of it 'manipulated' before.

[Ichimaru]

im surprise the hackjutsu sasuke has, his not even tired yet as compared to the fight against deidera, here his fkn 5 kages....

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by james0246

^You're kidding right? What's more realistic, Itachi using his various MS techniques (not Susanoo, since that was confirmed to nor be used often) over the course of his 7 years as a missing-nin, or only using the MS when dealing only with the Konoha-nin in your listed description? Hell, I don't even have to state it as a rhetorical question, Kisame knew of Itachi's techniques, and he even knew how they hurt Itachi's eyes. The only way he could have known this is if he had seen Itachi use these techniques multiple times, and not just the 2-3 times Itachi used the abilities in Part I in Kisame's presence.

In the end, it is very obvious that Itachi had used Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi multiple times over the course of his career (more probably Tsukuyomi rather than Amaterasu), enough times in fact that somehow various shinobi were able to analyze the proficiency of his attacks and others were then able to use this analysis to determine that Sasuke's proficiency is greater (for Amaterasu at least).

No, i am honestly not kidding at all. I really am aware that Kisame must've seen the MS atleast 1-2 times in action. But we also know that Kisame is a ninja beyond the level of people like Kakashi. Who also noticed things very quickly.

For example.... we're talking about Naruto now. He had to fight Kakuzu 2 times (actually one time) to figure out how to defeat him. In other words i am sure that Kisame didnt need to see it more then 3 times to discover his limits and side effects. It wouldn't suprise me either if Itachi told him how it works (we've seen them explain their techniques soo many times).

However you mentioned something that Itachi used it more then 10 times if i recall well i disagreed. I doubt it was neccesary for Itachi to use it that often. He has been untill Sasuke himself very cautious and avoided unneccesary battles. And no, please don't try to put words in my mouth such as he only used it on Konoha nins..no i never mentioned that. Well time will tell though...

Originally Posted by SpyderSidiouss

Difference is though, yours is very wrong considering the facts in the manga totally contradict it

Just to give a quick a recap on the MS, for those of you who like to daydream your own ideas about the manga and start believing them as facts: once a ninja gains the MS, their eyes begin to decend to blindess, regardless of whether or not they use the MS techniques. Usage of the MS techniques only hastens the effect.

So, considering Itachi had his MS for several years, compared to Sasuke's, - what, several weeks - no, he shouldn't be blind yet at all. As a matter of fact, if we're comparing his MS effect to Itachi's, Sasuke's decent to blindess has actually been much faster than it should be considering the very first time he willfully used it, his eye started bleeding, whereas when Itachi used it to escape Jiraiya's technique (after using Tsukuyomi btw), his eye didn't bleed or show really serious side effects. And by that period in time, Itachi already had his MS for years.



Im pretty sure he would need to make use of his MS abilities pretty often if he kept fighting against Kage leveled opponents whose abilities are perfect counters to his.

Yes i understand your point. But Itachi's MS didn't bleed at all until he fought Sasuke. Sasuke's were bleeding from the beginning. That's because the weakness of the MS wasn't told or known at that point. Same as a method to avoid getting blind. As i said before... time will tell. I rest my case concerning this till that time comes.

[Kafriel]

About Tsukiyomi: Kakashi tasted it first-hand and Itachi explained it to him before torturing Kakashi, so it's only natural for them to know that much. As for Amaterasu, we never found out if Jiraiya got the time to study the part he sealed, but maybe Danzou knew something about it-he runs ROOT after all.

In the end, it is very obvious that Itachi had used Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi multiple times over the course of his career

Itachi's "career" was a few years, he was a genjutsu master who only needs to point with a finger to mesmerize people. Akatsuki also move in pairs, and with Kisame's abilities I doubt there was that much of a need to use his MS. Now, I won't say he never used them at all, because nobody knows what he did during that time, but Sasuke showed signs of deterioration after his fight with Killerbee, and this one is much more intense-as such, it's natural to expect similar side-effects.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by james0246

(no Rurik, Kakashi couldn't have created a workable supposition that would allow anyone to compare Sasuke and Itachi's Amaterasu based on a sealed Amaterasu - that would be like determining that Deidara can create CO simply because you have a sample of C4).

Batman would had worked one...

The fact that Kakahsi has the MS on his own, and a Ninjutsu that share some similarities With Amatersu can help Kakahsi understand Amaterau, seen Itachi using Tsukijoymy and seen his use on it could help him understand Itachi use of the MS overall.

Either way, we are talking about C here, But the fact that He is giving the comment on Itachi’s efficiency with the Jutsu, means somehow He had access to the information on it, I mean, what are the odds, from the 5 great Ninja village to have witnesses Itachi Amaterasu? (very slim) Heck, Sasuke was fighting Killer Bee, while the 2 scrapbook Kumo nin where close by, How difficult it is to elaborate a simple theory that Itachi ONCE fought against someone from Kumo (or a team) and one of them got to see him from afar and thus taking notes about it ?

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

About Tsukiyomi: Kakashi tasted it first-hand and Itachi explained it to him before torturing Kakashi, so it's only natural for them to know that much. As for Amaterasu, we never found out if Jiraiya got the time to study the part he sealed, but maybe Danzou knew something about it-he runs ROOT after all.

Itachi's "career" was a few years, he was a genjutsu master who only needs to point with a finger to mesmerize people. Akatsuki also move in pairs, and with Kisame's abilities I doubt there was that much of a need to use his MS. Now, I won't say he never used them at all, because nobody knows what he did during that time, but Sasuke showed signs of deterioration after his fight with Killerbee, and this one is much more intense-as such, it's natural to expect similar side-effects.

Oh yes that's right. It was a given fact that Jiraiya was also the one who had certain resources around the world and he was the one who spread the word about Akatsuki aswell. He informed for example the Sand and ofcourse Konoha aswell.

[Giggi]

So, are these spoilers confirmed, or not? If so, can I have a recap?

EDIT: typo.

[Sasuke_Bateman]

Spoiler for Gaara and the others need to leave,seriously they need to get out of herer lol: