[Manga] Chapter 486 Discussion

[neshru]

Originally Posted by antjluc

doesnt anybody realize that Zetsu calls Madara, Tobi i think that should be a big sign

Here's the story: Tobi was once a farmer that liked to take care of his plants. One day, on a trip to the Valley of the End, he found dying man. The man asked Tobi to share his body with him, and offered him to make his plants the most impressive plants ever seen in return. Tobi, being a good boy, accepted.
And that's how Zetsu was born and Madara was reborn.

[karaya]

Originally Posted by Nite-Wing

If this is were the confrontation ends
Im pretty sure down the line Kishi will have sasuke having wet dreams about what Naruto told him.
Also I have no idea how Madara is going to wage a war with only sasuke and zetsu.

If Sasuke gets redeemed I'm pretty sure everything hes done will get swept under the rug just like everything Gaara did got swept under the rug after he became kazekage.

Problem is Gaara did not seem to do anything illegal as sasuke and was under constant supervision. Killing all assassins could not be a crime since it can be seen as self defense and no one would admit they send them in the first place.

On the missions I bet he was allowed to kill certain people who where supposed criminals or such.

In chuunin exam you where allowed to kill and he was stopped from killing Lee so practically I doubt he was ever considered a bad guy in the way like sasuke. Invading other countries , attacking their people and joining international criminal organizations.

[Sasuke_Bateman]

In chuunin exam you where allowed to kill and he was stopped from killing Lee so practically I doubt he was ever considered a bad guy in the way like sasuke. Invading other countries , attacking their people and joining international criminal organizations.

Itachi did all that and he was "good"

[Kakosan]

Well, I've read the english version of the chapter and definetly I believe that most of people overreacted here with their comments. What Naruto said was not a desire or a a fruit of his imagination (or wet dreams). It was something that he understood as a fact. If they fight they both will die. That's it. Plain and simple.

He was clear, if Sasuke were to attack Konoha, he will have to fight Naruto first. As his friend Naruto believes that he must be the one to stop Sasuke. It makes perfect sense to me. He even says that if that were to occur (the fight), then all the Uchiha and Jinchuiriki thing would over after their death. At the very least, Madara's plan would be have to be postponed (again) in this scenario.

[ShadowAssasin]

Originally Posted by james0246

On this point, I disagree. If it doesn't happen on-screen, or it isn't mentioned on-screen, then it hasn't happened. We can never assume what happens off-screen.

lol, then I guess Sasuke and Naruto never get up in the morning, brush their teeth, use the restroom, wash up, , eat together, or had trivial conversations (such as "did you see my red & black kunai?", or "Me and Sakura are getting pizza, want some?") considering they all lived in the same neighborhood, were on the same team, and were pretty close (or did they live together in some kind of ninja dorm?).

I'm not saying that we should just assume they fought a four headed dragon together or made origami butterflies while sipping hot cocoa off screen, but that we shouldn't simply assume that what we see on camera is all that went on... They must have done "boring" things together that aren't worthy of panel time. There are some people who look a the manga and say things like "Well they didn't do that much together"; what I'm trying to point out is that the "boring" parts can count towards someone's relationship as well.

[karaya]

Originally Posted by Sasuke_Bateman

Itachi did all that and he was "good"

Only for sasuke(and some others). The rest of the world still sees Itachi as traitor to his own village because they don't know the truth. But I bet naruto will tell the village what's going on soon.

And it depends who you ask if he did the right choice or not. In "Itachi was he good or bad" thread we currently discuss if he was a hero , villain or anything in between. That all depends on your own insight.

But still I was referring to Gaara. Itachi is different case.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

lol, then I guess Sasuke and Naruto never get up in the morning, brush their teeth, use the restroom, wash up, , eat together, or had trivial conversations (such as "did you see my red & black kunai?", or "Me and Sakura are getting pizza, want some?") considering they all lived in the same neighborhood, were on the same team, and were pretty close (or did they live together in some kind of ninja dorm?).

Very well, I will clarify. If it is important, then it must be shown. What you have listed here is unimportant details: getting up in the morning, going to the bathroom, brushing your teeth, eating ramen, etc. (Actually, now that I think about it, all of these details ahve been shown at least once, so it would actually be safe to assume that they occur in a similar fashion...but that is besides the point.) They do not need to be shown. Sasuke and Naruto's relationship is important, though, and every detail needs to be shown. When was the first time they had a "lazt sunday" together, when was the first time Sasuke hesitated before refusing to go eat Ramen with Naruto, when did they first talk about nothing important - just talk. You cannot assume any of this happened because it was never once hinted as happening. Sasuke's declaration of respect (for Naruto) back at the start of the preliminaries in the Chuunin Exam was just as much a shock to Naruto as it was for the audience. They have never been shown to have as deep a relationship as they are supposed to have.

[Sasuke_Bateman]

Originally Posted by karaya

Only for sasuke(and some others).

But still I was referring to Gaara. Itachi is different case.

Gaara kill people for fun and join Orochimaru in attacking the Leaf. I'm not seeing the huge difference

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sasuke_Bateman

Gaara kill people for fun and join Orochimaru in attacking the Leaf. I'm not seeing the huge difference

The difference is in the circumstance. The entire Sand village joined Orochimaru. To say Gaara did so specifically is like saying a thrown shuriken attacked someone of its own free will. Gaara was a weapon for his village. This automatically places virtually all of his misdeeds squarely under the banner of military action. In short, Gaara is not the same as Itachi or Sasuke because he was acting under orders, however loosely.

Itachi, meanwhile, was acting under orders as well, but doing so covertly and without the knowledge of the village at large. Good cause or not, mass murder without a reasonable excuse would generally be frowned upon, as would ditching the village after that and joining a criminal organization. Itachi's acts are not done at the behest of a recognized world power, but at the whim of a group of criminals.

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by neshru

Here's the story: Tobi was once a farmer that liked to take care of his plants. One day, on a trip to the Valley of the End, he found dying man. The man asked Tobi to share his body with him, and offered him to make his plants the most impressive plants ever seen in return. Tobi, being a good boy, accepted.
And that's how Zetsu was born and Madara was reborn.

Did Kakashi ever meet Zetsu? It seemed that he knew who Zetsu was...or atleast heard of him...

[Sabaku Kyu]

This was an okay chapter. To me the most interesting part was scene featuring Madara apparently getting his arm restored by that plant that had a resemblance to Zetsu. Makes be wonder about Zetsu's exact relationship to Madara. Maybe Zetsu's actually some kind of mutant created by Madara? And what exactly is he planning to do with the Rinnegan (or all the Sharingan eyes for that matter)?

Anyways, I appreciate the fact that Naruto's resolved to cut the talk and declared that the next time they meet, it'll be a fight to the death (don't really expect either of them to die, but at least we know neither of them will hold back). This feels like an end point to the Kage summit arc, and I suppose the next few chapters will look in on some of the Kages and the whereabouts of other characters and establish the goals of the upcoming arc.

Originally Posted by james0246

When was the first time they had a "lazt sunday" together, when was the first time Sasuke hesitated before refusing to go eat Ramen with Naruto, when did they first talk about nothing important - just talk. You cannot assume any of this happened because it was never once hinted as happening. Sasuke's declaration of respect (for Naruto) back at the start of the preliminaries in the Chuunin Exam was just as much a shock to Naruto as it was for the audience. They have never been shown to have as deep a relationship as they are supposed to have.

Naruto and Sasuke have never been bosom buddies like Shikamaru and Chouji, but we have seen the defining moments of their friendship: the tree climbing training, Sasuke putting his life on the line for Naruto fighting Haku, Sasuke acknowledging his strength at the chuunin exam, etc. These moments were few and far between, but they were poignant.

Naruto's basis for his friendship with Sasuke wasn't the good times they had with each other or enjoying each other's company. It was about complete, unconditional acceptance. Sasuke was a complete jerk to Naruto 99% of the time. But he was also among the first people (besides Iruka) to acknowledge him as a worthy ninja and be willing to lay down his life for him. That's why Naruto considers him a true friend.

[Nite-Wing]

Its pretty hypocritical to say that Gaara wasn't a criminal because he stayed with his village. In my opinion the convo he and sasuke had at the kage summit showed that sasuke was at the point gaara was 3 years ago.

Gaara didn't care about his team either,Im pretty sure he attempted to kill temari at one point. He was a trash ninja just like sasuke the only difference is the fact that his village condoned what he did more or less.

The ninja system is flawed if Gaara can be redeemed but sasuke has absolutely no chance of being forgiven.

[karaya]

Originally Posted by Sasuke_Bateman

Gaara kill people for fun and join Orochimaru in attacking the Leaf. I'm not seeing the huge difference

Gaara killed yes but as I pointed above I don't think he made international threats to anyone except konoha.

He was on the missions and he did what had to be done.

As far as attacking the leaf yes he did but that was from orders of his own village. Remember that not only Gaara but the whole sand elite force was attacking the Leaf so you cannot just put the blame on Gaara.

And besides Sand did not know that Oro was controlling Sand (or so I assume) and they did not know that on the way to Leaf Kazekage was killed of and that Sound betrayed sand.

oro used simple politics in his own favor to invade Leaf. Gaara had no idea (nor did other sand people) what was truly going on.

Officially he was just following orders from his own village so yes there is a huge difference here.

Just because you are "evil" does not mean you are international criminal.

But let say if Gaara went on rampage on his own and without support of his village yes it would be jsut as bad as sasuke. But it did not play out that way.

P.S and remember Fire made piece with sand shortly after when they discovered the truth so Gaara with the rest of the village became allies again. But by that time his evil days where over. Still if continued the way dark path Gaara might have ended like sasuke but he turned to Narutoism before that so it was prevented .

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Naruto and Sasuke have never been bosom buddies like Shikamaru and Chouji, but we have seen the defining moments of their friendship: the tree climbing training, Sasuke putting his life on the line for Naruto fighting Haku, Sasuke acknowledging his strength at the chuunin exam, etc. These moments were few and far between, but they were poignant.

Naruto's basis for his friendship with Sasuke wasn't the good times they had with each other or enjoying each other's company. It was about complete, unconditional acceptance. Sasuke was a complete jerk to Naruto 99% of the time. But he was also among the first people (besides Iruka) to acknowledge him as a worthy ninja and be willing to lay down his life for him. That's why Naruto considers him a true friend.

That wasn't my point. I do not doubt that they are friends, nor do I doubt that they accept(ed) each other (though, they obviously do not anymore, or at least Sasuke does not). Rather, as I have said several times in this thread, the "deepness" of their relationship is built up more than it was every actually shown to be. Before Naruto called Sasuke "brother" during the retrieval mission, I never once thought of them as having such a close relationship (nor did quite a few others), and their few brief poignant moments together do not lead to such a close relationship. Kishimoto did not adequately show the 2 having such a relationship, though he has spent an abundant amount of time describing that they do have such a relationship, but only after the fact (after Sasuke left). As I said, if it is not properly shown, then it did not happen. That being said, Kishimoto even acknowledges this fact in this chapter by having Naruto explain that they could not understand each other by "ordinary methods", which is code for every standard way of describing a relationship - so, even Kishimoto acknowledges that the "deepness" of their relationship has no actual "proof", it simply is...

That being said, we much accept their relationship as fact, whether we believe it was adequetly descibed or not. Consequently, as I have said several times in this thread, the only option (well, the only symbolic option definitely) Naruto has for saving Konoha is to save Sasuke.

[Kafriel]

This chapter confirms that Sasuke doesn't view Naruto as a true friend for whom he'd jump to the deepest abyss of hell...so no, their friendship, while being there, doesn't mean much. Sasuke didn't sympathise with Naruto for Jiraiya's loss, he didn't say "I'm sorry but someday you'll understand" when Konoha was attacked, he clearly wants Naruto to just get out of his life and stop being in his way.
About all the Gaara talk, remember that his dad had tried to assassinate him, he killed his own mother (in a sense) and was possessed by a demon. Sasuke went darkside after a mere onslaught, thinking only about revenge and power, while Gaara was insane, not jealous/bitter/emo.

[zero7]

Damn Naruto stop being very gay for Sasuke and asking to die together was a bit too much

[karaya]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

This chapter confirms that Sasuke doesn't view Naruto as a true friend for whom he'd jump to the deepest abyss of hell...so no, their friendship, while being there, doesn't mean much. Sasuke didn't sympathise with Naruto for Jiraiya's loss, he didn't say "I'm sorry but someday you'll understand" when Konoha was attacked, he clearly wants Naruto to just get out of his life and stop being in his way.
About all the Gaara talk, remember that his dad had tried to assassinate him, he killed his own mother (in a sense) and was possessed by a demon. Sasuke went darkside after a mere onslaught, thinking only about revenge and power, while Gaara was insane, not jealous/bitter/emo.

It confirmed that Naruto views sasuke still as a friend and that Sasuke in return just want him out of his way. So it's kind of one way friendship.

As for Gaara it's mainly villages fault that made him that way. The old teachings of the sand and treating him as a weapon. Sasuke as you say is different case even though they both share darkness deal which Gaara did comment on at the summit.

Sasuke does not seem to have the will to turn anymore.

[Kafriel]

As for Gaara it's mainly villages fault that made him that way. The old teachings of the sand and treating him as a weapon. Sasuke as you say is different case even though they both share darkness deal which Gaara did comment on at the summit.

Sasuke does not seem to have the will to turn anymore.

This is the only part that Sasuke and Gaara share: their villages are at fault for their situation. But Gaara went through so much more shit than Sasuke and Naruto headbutted the darkness out of him, while Sasuke managed to remain a stray with a much smaller emotional charge, which breaks basic shounen laws (emotion/willpower=actual powerrr!)

[Poetic Justice]

It was a good chapter, much better than last weeks rehashed dialogues. And zetsu wanting to fight naruto after witnessing what happened with the pain fight was just

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by james0246

That wasn't my point. I do not doubt that they are friends, nor do I doubt that they accept(ed) each other (though, they obviously do not anymore). Rather, as I have said several times in this thread, the "deepness" of their relationship is built up more than it was every actually shown to be. Before Naruto called Sasuke "brother" during the retrieval mission, I never once thought of them as having such a close relationship (nor did quite a few others), and their few brief poignant moments together do not lead to such a close relationship. Kishimoto did not adequately show the 2 having such a relationship, though he has spent an abundant amount of time describing that they do have such a relationship, but only after the fact (after Sasuke left). As I said, if it is not properly shown, then it did not happen.

I realize that. The point I'm making is that you seem to be basing your definition on adequately depicting a "deep" relationship on showing them doing things like spending time with each other, eating together, opening up to each other, etc. And I agree, these are usually the things that we think of as signs of a properly fleshed out relationship.

I'm saying Naruto and Sasuke relationship was never supposed to be defined by those things. Naruto and Sasuke fought beside each other and risked their lives for each other, sorry but to me a scenes of them having fun or eating ramen together doesn't hold a candle to the significance of showing one willing to sacrifice his life for the other. Like you said, their relationship is closer to that of brothers. Brothers may never be close, brothers can hate each other guts, but the concept of brotherhood is that of an unconditional bond not a bond based on mutual fondness for each other. And Naruto treasures this bond more than most since he went through most his life never experiencing it.

Agree to disagree on this one, since it's purely a matter of opinion whether or not you consider their relationship properly developed, but I just think it was intentional and fitting that Sasuke and Naruto's relationship based on a few key moments rather than a more gradual buildup.