2013-03-09, 07:31 | Link #81 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NL
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I semi agree with James.
I can understand if the marines had a strong "egg" stored away during the war, but if there are more admirals popping up like that it would really be a creative ass pull from Oda. There has to be a limit for unknown strong characters that are on the marines side but never mentioned. Thus it makes more sense for the story if the new admiral(s) have yet to fully grow in terms of strength and power. It's really a tad bit ridiculous if there are that many island wrecking monsters like Akainu and Aokiji. Though if the blind man really is an admiral he is probably that super strong "egg". Considering the way Akainu talked about his dispatch as if the problem was already solved or would be in an instant. Though he seems a bit outmatched with the strongest SH's all together. |
2013-03-09, 08:52 | Link #82 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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And either way, Luffy is not beating an admiral right now, whether they be slightly below the original trio or not. I think some people here are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying the WG doesn't have additional resources at their disposal, for I've already said that they definitely had reserves since not all of them were present during the Marineford war. That's very evident. I'm talking about the fighting caliber of those resources in direct comparison to the admirals. There's a difference.
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2013-03-09, 10:28 | Link #83 | |||||||
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Location: East Cupcake
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To put it in perspective, the standing force at Marineford was only 100,000. That is nothing, especially when you consider that the war in Alabasta had 1,000,000 fighting (all mooks, but still fighting). Undoubtedly The marines total size is far closer to a million if not several million (since the marines/navy also represent a ground army as well...unless Oda is still going to introduce Generals). So, I've always suspected that there were probably marines scattered throughout the world. My question was how many Admiral-level marines could be out there but not participate in the war (which had the greatest military might present). Maybe your answer will be different, but my answer was two (based on currently known info concerning the world structure). Quote:
I hate this idea. Oda has already spent two movies focusing on characters coming out of retirement (well, they were old enough to be retired at least), I don't want him to spend any more time on this idea. There are already enough old people in the series that can kick ass, we don't need to create even older characters that have already retired coming out of the woodwork just to combat Luffy. (I don't know what your obsession is with Luffy kicking old people around, but I do not share it .) Quote:
Last edited by james0246; 2013-03-09 at 10:50. |
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2013-03-09, 14:38 | Link #85 | |||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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I share your sentiments on this one, my friend. Though I wouldn't go as far as to say it's because Oda didn't like the character enough, so much as it is that he probably wanted to focus more on the new ones. Quote:
I know you were specifically referring to admiral-level fighters, but I just included marines around the VA level as well to, again, try to prove my point that the marines wouldn't keep all of their upper-tier eggs in one basket. Of course I don't doubt at all that the best forces were stationed at Marineford, but that still wouldn't mean that a few badasses could have been left on standby in the New World just to be on the safe side..... Quote:
It's not so much about Luffy smacking around seniors as it is about the seniors being the ones to smack around fools left and right. I'm just a fan of the whole "badass geezer" trope, is all..... |
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2013-03-09, 23:16 | Link #86 |
I'm not a tumor
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In the dreams of beautiful women
Age: 31
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The world government should have some sort of next gen development program out there to keep the supply of admirals coming. The OG trio were once VA's as someone already pointed out. If there's 2 new admirals I'd guess that one of them would be an older marine coming out of retirement kinda deal and the other would be a younger VA who's been fast tracked up. Solves the problem of there being "too many tough marine's" out there because 1 old guy coming out of retirement is cool but 2 is just shit. A young gun marine would also serve to kinda parallel the young gen of pirates stuffing shit up in the new world.
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2013-03-10, 00:55 | Link #88 | ||||
Annie Leonhart
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Indiana
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I have a certain expectation of the Admirals, so for me its either they are admirals or they aren’t. There can not be anything in between. Quote:
My source for the numbers of flag officer and Admirals came from wiki. That not reliable, so you are probably right. I was merely establishing a foundation of how ranks are formed. Oda does acquire a lot of his inspiration from real life things. Look at Dressrosa a lot of people on the forum compared it to Spain. U.S. may not be the best comparison, but I personally don’t know which navy old or new would be. A lot of the traditions, rankings, technology, terminology, and concepts were built through centuries of sailing the seas. No one country can claim that they were 100% responsible for everything. I don’t know if there really is any one true Navy you could say that Oda has copied or was heavily influenced by. Fact, the U.S. Navy did have 4 people who once held the title of Fleet Admiral and the Admiral ranks is the second highest in the U.S. Navy. Finally, most if not all promotions are not based on seniority. Ranking is based on competence first. You have to be able to do the job and past the test required of you. If both individuals are competent and equal in results then seniority will play a role. Seniority is not affective promotion tool. Source for Fleet Admiral :http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq36-1.htm Quote:
You don’t have to military guarding or stationed in the country. 170 countries are part of the WG organization, meaning they have a vested interest. So I don’t see were the WG would have a hard time of finding recruits or Admiral Level people who are interested in serving the Marines. Second how many other people like Zephyr (One Piece Z Flim), Sengoku, and Garp gave up there position but were convinced in staying has instructors? Zephyr (One Piece Z Flim) was in his late 30s Mid 40s when he gave up his Admiral rank after the family tragedy. Would they have been pulled into the MarineFord War if they were instructors or advisors? Also if your Admiral level, there is a good chance you going to be old. Being an admiral means you are going to dedicate most of your life to the service. Most will probably never reach the rank until they are in there 50s or 60s. It is just the nature of the title itself. That also goes for most top fighters on the pirates side too. Quote:
Shichibukai are all over the place when it comes to power. They range from Buggy to Daflamingo. The Admirals at least have standards, there powers do not fluctuate nearly has much has the Shichibukai. The Marine Rank system prevent the huge power differences you see in the Shichibukai. With the Ranking system I don't see how Fujitora could turn out weaker then the other admirals. Personally I doubt the Admirals will bring FullBody in the their ranks anytime soon. I think your right that, no matter which Admiral or Yonkou falls first, they will be deemed weaker in the eyes of the fan, but I also think fans can tell when a story is being contrived and placed there to make the main character look good. Last edited by grey_1960; 2013-03-10 at 01:05. |
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2013-03-10, 01:19 | Link #89 |
I'm not a tumor
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In the dreams of beautiful women
Age: 31
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There are stronger and weaker admirals though, Kuzan and Akainu for example. There isn't a perfect, equal trinity at play here. And I'm willing to wager that Kizaru is the weakest of the three
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2013-03-10, 01:31 | Link #90 | |
Many RPGs, Little Time
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And it's all about matchups. Luffy could beat Enel, but Enel's power is clearly more destructive, even though it's ineffective against Luffy. There's also Logia tiers. Magma beats Fire, and I guess that Ice and Fire are at the same tiers, so I'd say that Kuzan fared pretty well considering how Akainu can pretty much nullify ice, as shown during the war. In the end, only battle experience, creativity and Haki count when the abilities are similar.
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2013-03-10, 10:14 | Link #91 | ||
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---- For some reason, some people here are not pleased with the possibility of the newer admirals being SLIGHTLY (yes, I've said this word for the umpteenth time now; Grey, I'm looking at you ) weaker than the original trio. The admirals we know of are at the absolute top in the One Piece world, which means they're an outstanding group of individuals even amongst the best. It's perfectly reasonable for there to be many combatants weaker than them (whether the differences range from large to incredibly small). Nothing wrong with this at all. As stated already, overall, the war consisted of the best the marines had to offer. There's no disputing this, thus my reasoning of these newer admirals being, again, SLIGHTLY weaker than the admirals we're familiar with (because I, too, agree that there are high expectations and demands for the admiral position). Being SLIGHTLY weaker than the original trio won't reduce the effectiveness/prestige of the admiral rank as some are led to believe.
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2013-03-10, 14:15 | Link #92 |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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^I can only speak for myself here, but I suppose my mentality is that since we're now in the second half of the series, the stakes should be higher, hence my stance on the new admirals being equal to the original ones. Like, we're getting all this crazy info like one of the emperors having an entire army of zoans or the supernovas making alliances with each other, so it would only make sense for the marines to appropriately beef up their forces (and again, I'm sure that someone like Akainu would feel exactly the same way). True, I guess we could make due with the new admirals being roughly equal to the old ones, but I still sorta feel that all of them being equal in power would be a better sign that the NW marines aren't messing around.....
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2013-03-10, 14:33 | Link #93 |
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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^Everything has been too plot oriented for quite a while now. Honestly, I kind of wish Luffy would have just gone off and had a nice Skypiea style arc right now. Some fun fantasy adventuring with great comedy and decent drama mixed in.
Last edited by james0246; 2013-03-10 at 16:21. |
2013-03-10, 16:14 | Link #94 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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----- On a side note, I'm thinking that Dressrosa is going to be the Arabasta arc of the New World, that is, the first major arc that will have grand repercussions in this half of the story.
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2013-03-10, 16:46 | Link #95 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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Age: 39
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There's also the possibility of one or two guys having gotten stronger over the past two years to make Admiral. Why do people dismiss this possibility so easily?
I mean, look what two years did to the straw hats. |
2013-03-10, 18:13 | Link #97 | |
Many RPGs, Little Time
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However, it's EXTREMELY unlikely for a marine who has been serving for YEARS, to become strong in 2 years. Only maybe if he/she ate a strong fruit.
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2013-03-10, 18:28 | Link #98 |
Annie Leonhart
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Indiana
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Rules of Engagement
With the discussion we have been having, the anticipation to see what he can do has grown. I don't think Fujitora will disappoint, Fleet Admiral Akainu seemed pretty confident in his skill. I understand the nature of this case is a special one. Right now we have 1 Shichibukai, 1 rogue Shichibukai(assuming he gave up his title), and the Straw Hats. One thing has got me thinking, if Fleet Admiral Akainu sends in the Admiral to deal with the situation, also depending how the Straw hats do, does that mean from now on any engagement with the Straw hats will be restricted to Admiral level? The Vice Admirals that have been shown, have not done so hot. I figure the next in line would be the Buster Call Vice Admirals. The fact that Fleet Admiral is sending in a Admiral, makes me wonder how the future engagements will be. My thought process is the Marines will engage with the straw hat when there interest is threatened like now, so I figure the it will be 10% of the time, then sit back, watch the events unfold 90% of the time until they really need to engage. So that would leave 90% of the engagements with the Straw hats left too Yonkous, Rivals, and side story adventures. Also I don't see the presence of the marines being has huge has they were in the other half. Last edited by grey_1960; 2013-03-10 at 18:49. |
2013-03-10, 18:59 | Link #99 | ||
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Well, as BDK said, growth rates would vary from person to person. I mean, "growth" doesn't have to be exclusive to physical strength (and if it does, it can be in the sense that a marine learned a new martial art, or learned how to better use their DF in conjunction with haki, etc.). Like maybe some marines studied more advanced war tactics to use against pirates like psychological warfare (which we even saw being put to use at Marineford, so it's definitely plausible). So really, I don't think age matters as far as growth is concerned. Though sure as hell still can't see Coby becoming an admiral anytime soon. |
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2013-03-10, 19:11 | Link #100 |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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On the subject of the old blind man being Fujitora being an admiral and the marine's ability to replace two admirals in the past two years; I do have to say it would rather bug me if they are people we have never heard of or seen before. I give that kind of pass for the shichibukai, since their are many pirate we have never seen before, but with the whitebeard war, something that important we expected to see EVERY major marine out there for the fight...
Frankly, i would be willing to overlook their absence in that battle if it was atleast hinted to or explained... For instance, if when the marines were gathering they mentioned that their were exceptions and that one of those exceptions was Vice admiral Whats-his-Name was keeping an eye on Kidou and Shanks. Thanks to the fact that Admiral's use aliases we would not know that VA Whats-his-Name in fact became Admiral Fujitora in the past two years... and being given the job of watching Kidou and red hair seems like a VERY important job that they would not leave to any ordinary VA, thus explaining his absence.... Really all I would have preferred is something back then telling us that there was important jobs elsewhere
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