Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha ViVid Manga Discussion

[00-Raiser]

Evangelion opened the door for mecha shows to have more in depth meta-physical and psychological aspects.

And yeah, RahXephon is better than Evangelion in a lot of ways.

Back on topic, you should look at everything as if it existed in a vacuum. What would you think of Vivid if you were completely unaware of all the things it shares similarities with? Would you still find it good or dull? That's what one should be think about.

[Kaijo]

"We stand upon the shoulders of giants."

Everything that comes, is built upon what has come before. Everything has tropes. Much like Raiser said, one has to look at a series and see if it is good to one's own taste. Does it tell a coherent story? Do the elements fit together to tell an interesting narrative? Are the characters believable and likable? And do we recognize that our tastes are ultimately subjective, and are we being honest with ourselves?

For myself, Vivid is decent. There are flaws and things that I feel should be done differently. I know it won't appeal to everyone, and at times I can barely stand it. But I am honest with myself that I'm mainly reading to learn more about the world and the various magical styles. And it has interesting high points, such as the recent Corona/Einhart fight.

But personally, I feel there is a difference between "standing on the shoulders of giants" and being influenced by what came before, and outright copying and pasting most of a plot and a bunch of plot elements. So, just for myself, I tend to have problems with shows that almost come off as plagiarizing, especially when hardcore fanboys rush to defend something as revolutionary. Nothing truly is revolutionary. Even Nanoha really isn't; it's mecha shonen with girls! Vivid at least comes closer to that, heh.

Also, Fafnir is another Eva clone, although I didn't like it. Then again, I'm not a big mecha fan, nor did I think Eva was the best thing ever. Hmmm... maybe Dragonaut: The Resonance might be another one, but then again, I only saw the first couple of episodes of that, so I couldn't say for sure.

Anyway, the point is that it's okay for similarities to exist. It's not bad. In fact, it's good to acknowledge them, to see what influences the creator of a work and give insight into his/her mindset. To deny them completely, is to deny reality. Not my thing.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But personally, I feel there is a difference between "standing on the shoulders of giants" and being influenced by what came before, and outright copying and pasting most of a plot and a bunch of plot elements. So, just for myself, I tend to have problems with shows that almost come off as plagiarizing, especially when hardcore fanboys rush to defend something as revolutionary. Nothing truly is revolutionary. Even Nanoha really isn't; it's mecha shonen with girls! Vivid at least comes closer to that, heh.

I agree with this, we must be honest on some things, Tsuzuki obviously insipired his shows based on other sources but for the most part managed to add his own touch to give us something fresh, but his own fanboyism with SRW is too glaringly obvious at times. There's a lot of Expies in the story and one of them has just surpassing the expy status to become almost a direct copy/paste clone, saying names is unnecessary.

[biodude711]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

"We stand upon the shoulders of giants."

Everything that comes, is built upon what has come before. Everything has tropes. Much like Raiser said, one has to look at a series and see if it is good to one's own taste. Does it tell a coherent story? Do the elements fit together to tell an interesting narrative? Are the characters believable and likable? And do we recognize that our tastes are ultimately subjective, and are we being honest with ourselves?

For myself, Vivid is decent. There are flaws and things that I feel should be done differently. I know it won't appeal to everyone, and at times I can barely stand it. But I am honest with myself that I'm mainly reading to learn more about the world and the various magical styles. And it has interesting high points, such as the recent Corona/Einhart fight.

But personally, I feel there is a difference between "standing on the shoulders of giants" and being influenced by what came before, and outright copying and pasting most of a plot and a bunch of plot elements. So, just for myself, I tend to have problems with shows that almost come off as plagiarizing, especially when hardcore fanboys rush to defend something as revolutionary. Nothing truly is revolutionary. Even Nanoha really isn't; it's mecha shonen with girls! Vivid at least comes closer to that, heh.

Also, Fafnir is another Eva clone, although I didn't like it. Then again, I'm not a big mecha fan, nor did I think Eva was the best thing ever. Hmmm... maybe Dragonaut: The Resonance might be another one, but then again, I only saw the first couple of episodes of that, so I couldn't say for sure.

Anyway, the point is that it's okay for similarities to exist. It's not bad. In fact, it's good to acknowledge them, to see what influences the creator of a work and give insight into his/her mindset. To deny them completely, is to deny reality. Not my thing.

Very wise and true words, Kaijo. Well put.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

his own fanboyism with SRW is too glaringly obvious at times. There's a lot of Expies in the story and one of them has just surpassing the expy status to become almost a direct copy/paste clone, saying names is unnecessary.

Which is why I am not liking the direction where he is taking the franchise. Right now, the three magitechverses that did their shit right, in my opinion, are Bastard, BlazBlue and Guilty Gear. At least the way they plays their references are smoother.

Edit: Also, let's not kidding ourselves here. Nanoha is not standing on the shoulders of giants, it doesn't know if it want to be a super robot or a real robot show, so saying it's sitting between the shoulder of a Gundam and the shoulder of TTGL standing side by side would be more appropriate.

[00-Raiser]

Okay, who here is actually familiar with SRW? Because honestly "fanboyism with SRW is too glaringly obvious at times"? Hardly. The only glaringly obvious thing is Signum's parallels to Lamia. That's about it. Do we have Einst running around? Do we have an alien race that wants to use humans as soldiers? Do we have a Kyosuke or Excellen expy? No.

Remember that SRW as a whole is smashing together the plots of numerous mecha animes. SRW literally has every imaginable plot in there somewhere so you could claim that every anime takes from SRW.

Nanoha's main mecha influence is the way the fights are handled, opting for high speed exchange of beam vollies with the occasional energy sword fights thrown in.

As for how the magictek is handled, what's the issue? In the Nanohaverse their technology is fueled by magic, simple as that.

[Justin_Brett]

There's some other stuff, but yeah, it does get exaggerated a lot.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Okay, who here is actually familiar with SRW? Because honestly "fanboyism with SRW is too glaringly obvious at times"? Hardly. The only glaringly obvious thing is Signum's parallels to Lamia. That's about it. Do we have Einst running around? Do we have an alien race that wants to use humans as soldiers? Do we have a Kyosuke or Excellen expy? No.

Don't foreget Cypha's similarities with Juergen xD

[00-Raiser]

And by similarities you mean absolutely no similarities.

Yeah there are more references here and there, but like I said the most glaringly obvious is Signum. The final battle of A's is pretty much how any boss fight in a SRW game goes.

Some other stuff is just splitting hairs, though, like Mikako Takahashi voicing characters that use dragons.

So far as Vivid is concerned, there has never been a SRW game based on a tournament. Even when G Gundam is in it, it usually focuses on the Devil Gundam plot line.

[Akiyoshi]

Well, to be fair i think ViVid is the least directly influenced season of the Nanoha franchise. And this is a ViVid thread after all so i guess this point can go smooth here.

[itanshi1]

Its funny when you say all that when the giant I keep seeing Nanoha franchise standing on is MTG.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

Its funny when you say all that when the giant I keep seeing Nanoha franchise standing on is MTG.

MTG = Magic The Gathering?

[Zero Hurricane]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Even when G Gundam is in it, it usually focuses on the Devil Gundam plot line.

If Vivid really have similarities with G Gundam, maybe:

Vivio = Domon
Einhart = Chibodee
Lutecia = George
Rio = Sai
Corona = Rain
Miura = Allenby

I wonder know character who has similarities with Schwarz Bruder?

[itanshi1]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

MTG = Magic The Gathering?

Yes.

Spoiler for spoiler:

el hazard = phyrexia, ancient belka = thran, lost logia = thran totem, ornithoptors etc

[Mirron]

Yeah... I don't really see MtG being it's influence. It's... kind of minor for Japan. I guess it's possible, but it seems doubtful to me. Although considering all you really said was ancient civilization with ancient artifacts essentially, it's hard to say that's much of a connection. Personally find the multiple universes part more of a connection than that, and neither of those are really exclusive to one franchise.

[Laith]

...You know I find it funny that people say that that Tsuzuki stole from SRW and nobody mentions Ace Combat Zero, but I digress.

Which was the last scanlated chapter btw? I can't remember.

[itanshi1]

It's funny how many connections you can make if you claim mid childa is Dominaria. Both have at least a couple moons (I never know with Tsuzuki, his moons are everywhere and they look like copy pasta planets)

well back on topic :3 you can msg me

Spoiler for Spoiler:

I am adapting a long friggen story borrowing from mtg, the more i see in Force, the more i get to play with. It has yet to disrupt me.

Eclipse virus = pthisis, oh yeah

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Craxuan

Tofu is still solid, until you eat it that is.

When I think of the world 'solid', I think about concretes, metal plates, ceramic armor - things you can't chew and digest

After that I just don't care. Obviously if I try to scrutinize every single inconsistencies in the StrikerS, Vivid, and Force series they would pile up infinitely like Plastic Island. I just don't quite understand why a writer would not insist to correct them; no self-proclaimed writer could miss their own story's flaws. I know mine pretty darn well, although didn't exactly have the time to fix it yet...

Plastic Island Good comparison, that one.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Feel free to head over to the StrikerS thread and post why you feel StrikerS isn't solid writing. I won't deny there are a few things I would have liked done differently, but I don't see StrikerS as having any major issues.

Pretty sure I've already done that several times. Besides, StrikerS pales in comparison (regarding...lack of solidness?) to Force, and pretty sure I've done that over and over

I'm not sure why you see "flight magic for everyone" as a problem of consistency. Especially given the fact that not everyone has flight magic.

'Cept that Yuuno once said that Flight is one of the basics. Tell that to "Run, Soldier, Run!" Lanster.

Keep in mind you've only seen the barest fractions of what happened in the past. There are people today who keep horses and use them for sport or riding.

Oh, there's plenty of possible explanations, but like I've said somewhere before (prolly the other manga thread, or maybe when they're still merged) those are speculations, guesses, fanfic material - since you've kindly suggested the StrikerS thread before, may I recommend the theories and speculations thread in return? I comment the manga on what I saw on the manga, and what I saw was a ruler of a nation in an age of great technological advancements (as shown by the warships) riding a horse not shown to have any special traits, neither a ride most advanced, most comfortable nor easiest to defend against rapid magical ambushes. Unless it turned out that Belkan rulers has magical equestrian combat training (unproven, since all we've seen are unarmed combat styles), that scene is just plain odd - meh, old news I guess

Then again, even if Word of God somehow give an explanation, I'm not sure whether I'll buy it anyway considering aforementioned consistency issues.

Originally Posted by Laith

...You know I find it funny that people say that that Tsuzuki stole from SRW and nobody mentions Ace Combat Zero, but I digress

Aside from the use of the words Belka, Knight, and Ace, IIRC there's no other similarity, not in art design or story. Not unless Nanoha was a mercenary of a besieged Midchilda who essentially become a one woman air force, Belka detonated seven WMD's to halt Midchildan counterattack, and Fate attacked Nanoha after she become disillusioned with the war and joined the terrorist.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Oh, there's plenty of possible explanations, but like I've said somewhere before (prolly the other manga thread, or maybe when they're still merged) those are speculations, guesses, fanfic material. I comment the manga on what I saw on the manga, and what I saw was a ruler of a nation in an age of great technological advancements (as shown by the warships) riding a horse, neither a ride most advanced, most comfortable nor easiest to defend against rapid magical ambushes. Unless it turned out that Belkan rulers has magical equestrian combat training (unproven, since all we've seen are unarmed combat styles), that scene is just plain odd.

Then again, even if Word of God somehow give an explanation, I'm not sure whether I'll buy it anyway considering aforementioned consistency issues.

Maybe the horse is sentinent and is able to take an antropomorphic form like "Thirty-Thirty" from Bravestarr?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

'Cept that Yuuno once said that Flight is one of the basics. Tell that to "Run, Soldier, Run!" Lanster.

Maybe it's one of the basics for people who have that potential to do it. Ground mages just have no potential for flight magic. But it kinda looks like Teana might have learned a thing or two about this in Vivid, judging by the way she was standing on her magic circle during the practice match (it could have been on the ground, but it's really hard to see).

Oh, there's plenty of possible explanations, but like I've said somewhere before (prolly the other manga thread, or maybe when they're still merged) those are speculations, guesses, fanfic material - since you've kindly suggested the StrikerS thread before, may I recommend the theories and speculations thread in return? I comment the manga on what I saw on the manga, and what I saw was a ruler of a nation in an age of great technological advancements (as shown by the warships) riding a horse not shown to have any special traits, neither a ride most advanced, most comfortable nor easiest to defend against rapid magical ambushes. Unless it turned out that Belkan rulers has magical equestrian combat training (unproven, since all we've seen are unarmed combat styles), that scene is just plain odd - meh, old news I guess

Well, this is the Vivid thread, and discussion of the horse is part of the Vivid material. :P Just so we're on the same page, can you point me to where the horse shows up? I actually can't recall it off hand, and could use a refresher.

Also, this is a magic universe, with many magical animals. Wouldn't surprise me if the horse could sprout pegasus-like wings or something.

Also, magic civilization... perhaps this was their tech level, and while they could magically make some things, they were essentially a standard fantasy civilization. Teleport magic could enable them to move from world to world without ships. Which was why the Cradle, something from Al-Hazard, was such a big advantage for the Kaiser.

I will say that, it would be nice to see more of ancient Belka and get some more explanations and a clearer picture of what it was like back then, so that everything makes sense. You're partially right in that we only have guesses and theories to work off of. One of the things I wanted to see from Vivid, was more ancient Belkan backstory (probably shown through Olive and Claus).

So I don't see anything that's inconsistent, per se; just things that are awaiting an official explanation (and that we fit with theory in the meantime).