2010-10-28, 16:58 | Link #62 |
Twintails are wintails!
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To better underline my argument about Kyousuke's father finding Kirino with an eroge, I've made some screenshots below, along with explanations.
I've used clickable thumbnails to save space. Spoiler:
tl;dr: Final results of the thoughts of Kyousuke's father: His father is now completely convinced that Kyousuke is not only 100% pure otaku, but even an otaku who has sexual fantasies about his imouto! Following the Japanese saying "If something stinks, keep it bottled up", he thus decides to completely ignore his otaku son from now on. Kirino, on the other hand side, is totally free of any blame in his eyes now. She never had anything to do with anime or eroge in the first place (how would such a sweet, innocent girl have anything to with such naughty stuff, anyway?) and was only forced by Kyousuke to cover for him and hide his anime and eroge. Consequently: If her father should however find out at a later time now that Kirino does talk about anime (be it on the phone or with friends), actually owns anime stuff for herself or visits anime-related events, his world and his image of pure, innocent Kirino would totally collapse, and he would go insanely made, much more even than he was now. Thus, Kirino still has to take great care that her father doesn't get to know anything about her anime hobby, or all hell would break loose.
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2010-10-28, 17:51 | Link #63 | |
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2010-10-28, 20:47 | Link #64 | |||||
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It is somewhat amazing we're still talking about this, but I'll humor you.
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2010-10-29, 08:49 | Link #65 | |
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As for Kirino, she still has to be careful not because there was no progess made in their argument against their father, but because her collection is nearly all eroge. Her dad allowing her to keep anything not eroge is pointless when that makes up nearly her entire collection. Another problem is that you write off Kyousuke's act of taking all the blame as him "seeing how anything he did had pretty much no effort on his father, he uses his "last resort" to save his imouto and "confesses" that it's all his stuff, and that Kirino was only keeping it for him." As I have quoted before, Kyousuke agrees with his father that Kirino keeping eroge is not something that can be justified. He does not become the scapegoat because his argument had no effect on his father. If that was the reason, then why did Kyousuke all of a sudden agree with his father on throwing out the eroge? Even after claiming ownership of that single eroge disk, Kyousuke brings up his own porn collection that his mother knows about. His porn collection is a tool to "justify" another adults-only item, the eroge in his father's hand. It does not make sense that Kyousuke would use his collection to justify anime as a whole when non-pornographic anime has nothing to do with a sexually explicit porn magazine collection. Therefore, Kyousuke claimed that only the eroge belonged to him, because he can justify that eroge, an adults-only game, with his own adult material recognized by his mother. tl;dr - point still stands, Kyou only claimed ownership of the eroge because he could lump it with his own porn collection. |
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2010-10-29, 14:03 | Link #66 | |||||||||||||||||
Twintails are wintails!
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Thank you very much for your grace, your excellence. Quote:
That somehow reminds me of those tv preachers of questionable mental constitution in the US, who preach against porn and such "We all know that everyone has erotic fantasies, this is sadly the course of nature. However, we must always keep in mind that those erotic fantasies are temptations sent to us by the devil! They are never good per se, and thus we always must fight them whenever and wherever we can!" Not only are erotic fantasies a fundamentally *good* thing, but they're also absolutely *neccessary* for a healthy development! People who grow up within puritan families or other hardcore christian families, where erotic fantasies (and anything sexual in general) are strongly repressed, grow up having a very disturbed relationship to sexuality in general and much more often turn into fondlers and rapists than others, because they have no valve, no release for their sexual feelings. Quote:
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Second, he *is* criticising Kirino, because he thinks that Kirino has a worthless hobby in these anime. Quote:
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As Kyousuke knows that his father is pretty simple-minded, he knows his father would say that having this "worthless" hobby would make her neglect other things, so he brings up Kirino's good grades to prevent him from bringing that argument. Quote:
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Certainly no joking here. Are you joking with your stuff? It would really be better with some of it... Quote:
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He *might* know that he hurt Kirino's feelings... but more than likely, he didn't. He certainly isn't the type to notice such things, and Kirino running out crying didn't ring a bell with him, as he's still as unrelenting when Kyousuke comes to talk with him. He didn't take back those words either - but actually, it doesn't matter if he took them back or not, as he's later convinced that it's Kyousuke's hobby only (which fits his fathers preconceived image of Kyousuke being a good-for-nothing), and that Kirino was only forced to cover for Kyousuke and actually has nothing to do with it (which again fits the father's image of pure, innocent Kirino who would never have do such a thing). Quote:
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At the end however, the innocent image of Kirino was restored again, as Kyousuke "confessed" that it's him who has the "worthless" anime hobby, and even exaggerates to appear like a real otaku. This again fits the preconceived image the father has of Kyousuke as a good-for-nothing, so he instantly believes him there. Quote:
When seeing the image, his father just thought, "Now he's showing me some random image of Kirino with some friends. What does this have to do with anything?" Quote:
However, I'd say that's quite unlikely. His father is very hung-up on his image of pure, innocent Kirino, that's why he got so very, very mad about seeing Kirino having a hobby which he regards as "worthless" - it doesn't fit the image he has of her. When Kyousuke "confesses" how he actually is the one who is the otaku, his father more than gladly accepts this. He simply *wants* to believe that Kirino was only forced to cover up for Kyousuke and doesn't have anything to do with it herself, because only that way he can restore the pure, innocent image of Kirino he's so hung-up on. This is actually quite common. Parents often like to see their kids, especially girls, for as long as pure and innocent as possible, and have problems seeing them grow up and thus stopping to be pure and innocent kids.
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2010-10-29, 14:25 | Link #67 |
Seishu's Ace
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I hesitate to wade back into this topic, but there are two things I see as apparent in that scene that I think are relevant. One, it's ludicrous to suggest Kyousuke's father felt threatened by him in any way. He outweighs his son by probably 50 pounds and he's clearly a bully, as he deomonstrated at the end of the scene. He might have been surprised and annoyed, but threatened? No way. Second, while it's not as obvious, I think the father knew that Kyousuke's "ownership" of the eroge was a lie. He simply chose to pretend it wasn't because it was easier for him to make believe Kirino wasn't the sort of girl to play eroge than to accept it openly. That would shatter his authority in the family, becuase it would be an admission of a failure on his part as a parent. I happen to think his actions prove he is a failure as a parent, but I don't think he sees it that way.
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2010-10-29, 14:27 | Link #68 | |
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Kirino's father clearly didn't approve of anime and otaku because of what he read and heard on the media. This was stated. He was going to take away all of Kirino's collection because he believed her hobby was detrimental towards her growth. Kyousuke made it his argument that having a hobby is what made Kirino who she is, and that her hobby is harmless. Her father brings up the R-18 label quite clearly. Kyousuke agrees with him on that aspect, and that's what he accepts as his fault. All of this is clearly shown in the anime, the manga, and the novel. The father's belief in Kirino's "purity" is nothing more than an assumption. You also claimed that Kyousuke didn't make it clear that Saori and Kuroneko were Kirino's otaku friends. That is incorrect as well, because he used the picture as an example of Kirino's hobby. He said how she has found friends she could discuss her hobby with. Finally, if you're so insistent that Kyousuke assumed ownership of Kirino's entire hobby, eroge or not, then you are also implying the father still believes that Kirino has nothing to do with anime. As the later light novel volumes prove, the father is well aware of Kirino's hobby. However, I didn't want to use the novels as evidence since you seem intent on discussing assumptions made only in the anime. |
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2010-10-29, 14:34 | Link #69 |
スマイリウム
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^Holly hell, what are those posts I don't even-
I'd love to see a crossover scene with Kirino and Keima bashing and discussing about imouto charas and also seeing them play eroges on their PSPs next to each other. Instead of OreImou+Index it should have been OreImou+TWGOK and Index+Ika.
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2010-10-29, 15:45 | Link #70 | |
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Index with Ika... I find problems involving this but OreImou+TWGOK seems ok.
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2010-10-29, 20:18 | Link #71 | |||||||||||||
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Well, my reply was long, so perhaps expecting others to actually ponder (and not skim) what I wrote was too much ? Depending on ... your ability to comprehend English - or let's just assume I suck at English - comprehend what I say, this might prove to be a practice in futility. I'll try to not drop any point you make (you may remind me), and I hope you'll do the same when replying, even if all you can say is a smiley (it's better to know the other person did read).
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I can't deny the possibility that this Japan is from another universe and Ghibli movies/Satoshi Kon/etc don't exist and the media actively condemns all anime and Japan probably won World War 2 too, but for my sanity's sake, I assume this is the country we know today. The father condemns all those incest games with child porn. To say he condemns all anime, is just a presumption and hasty generalization on your part, something ep 3 did not tell us about. Quote:
And does that explain why he decided to take back his words ? Are we just gonna attribute it to cowardice on his part ? (uhm yeah he was scared of being beaten to death by his own son, I can believe that, I think) Quote:
This is what he said while pointing at the incest game : the people who do these things at this age are called otaku, this is a worthless hobby. Yeah, and now I'll have to repeat this because someone missed it. He did not say having something she could get so absorbed in was bad. She could probably be interested in science and try to pursue a scientific career, and no one can say that is bad (or worthless, insert your own word here). Having something you could get so absorbed in is not inherently bad. So the father said nothing about it. Condemning her hobby (playing incest games and whatnot) is not the same as saying she shouldn't have something she could get absorbed in (she should get absorbed in studying, for example). Quote:
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He knew that was the pic of her with her otaku friends. Period. Quote:
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People can voluntarily turn a blind eye to a lot of things. But after hearing Kyousuke talk a great deal about her new friends who shared the same hobby, being shown that pic, and asked whether he should have to worry, why do you assume the father couldn't understand those are the same friends Kyousuke had talked about ? Actually, ask anyone whether the father knew that was the pic of Kirino with her new otaku friends, or he just thought they were random friends thrown into the discussion for no apparent purpose at all. |
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2010-10-29, 21:41 | Link #73 | |
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Sure we can talk about the anime but can't dimiss the source material.
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2010-10-30, 11:52 | Link #75 | ||||||||||||||||
Twintails are wintails!
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Now, after my reply, you suddenly changed your opinion and are saying that you shouldn't judge erotic fantasies as good or evil, even though you just did that in your previous reply. Also, you didn't give a good reason why you shouldn't judge them as good or bad. Just "everyone has them", while true, isn't a good point why you shouldn't classify them. Now that's a curious little idea you got there XD Now if you would please explain to me what erotic fantasies have to do with farts? Unless, of course, you have erotic fantasies about farts, then you're excused Yes, let's do that. Quote:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criticize (Just ignore the ugly Yankee spelling there.) 1: to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : evaluate 2: to find fault with : point out the faults of Further down: Criticise implies finding fault especially with methods or policies or intentions. Calling something "worthless" has neither anything to do with "considering the merits and demerits", nor with "pointing out the faults" or "finding faults with methods". In the opposite, it's an unmethodical, prejudice-based, intentionally derogatory statement of opinion which indicates that you won't permit any discussion about this. Quote:
You can see that the father has such an image of Kirino when you take a look at the photo album of Kirino which he meticulously led. Of course "daddy's little girl" can't possibly have such a hobby which he considers worthless, that's why he got so really,really mad. Likewise, she can't possibly befriend others who have such a "worthless" hobby. The father doesn't have any problems to call persons "worthless", not just hobbies. When Kyousuke convinced him that he is an otaku and therefore has a "worthless" hobby, he is by consequence worthless as well, and the father calls him a worthless son: Quote:
That again is for the reason he doesn't know anything at all about anime. To make distinctions between various kinds out anime, and to differ it from eroge, he would have to know more about it and occupy with somewhat with it. Thiswon't happen before hell freezes over however, because he regards anime as a whole (including eroge) as "worthless" and thus avoids it as much as he can. Quote:
In Japan, anime/manga as a whole are considered socially acceptable. There are manga and anime for all age groups. It's not that uncommon to find a salary man reading manga. The manga publishing industry is by far the biggest publishing industry in Japan, much bigger than any other publishing industry. While there are still some conservative media who are trying to denounce anime and manga in general (which is probably just the media Kyousuke's father follows), it's just a small minority. This is very different from the west, where comics/cartoons are generally regarded as "just for kids", and manga/anime are lumped together with them even though they're quite another thing, just because of ignorance. Quote:
When Kyousuke grabs his father's collar and threathens him, this is so much in gross violation of the father's values that his father is utterly and deeply shocked by his son daring to do such a thing. Out of this massive shock, his first action is to pretend to give in (he still doesn't have any intention to change his opinion), just so that Kyousuke will unhand him. Who knows what he will do next otherwise? Quote:
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*Either* you say that assuming a connection between her anime hobby and her grades in school is ludicrous, as you said first (and which I would fully agree with). *Or* you say "You never know, the could very well be a connection between her hobby and her grades.", as you put it later. You can't say both at the same time, that's just hypocritical. So, which one of the two shall it be? Is it ludicrous, or is it possibly true? Quote:
As I said above already, Kirino is still "daddy's little girl", she's still pure and innocent for her father. This becomes very evident from the photo album of Kirino, which is so meticulously kept by the father. If he would accept the pic as what it actually is, it would destroy his image of her, and he simply can't accept that. Quote:
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"Inattentive": it might be true that he doesn't really care for what Kyousuke has to say, since he only values Kyousuke very lowly, and thus doesn't pay proper attention to him - but that's not the point here. The rest is correct. Quote:
It's especially curious, as the US mindset, which the US laws are based upon, is so immensely different from the Japanese mindset. In the US, any form of violence is perfectly acceptable, and no one will ever say a thing, even with blood and gore and whatnot. As soon as there's just the tiniest bit of naked skin shown though, there's a huge clamour about it. "Oh noes, won't anyone think of the poor children! Seeing naked skin will burn their eyes out!" Adult rating in Japan is quite different from the US. This post is already way too long anyway, so I won't go into detail here. Just read these articles for more info about it: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/R18ゲーム http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/18禁 Quote:
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2010-10-30, 13:43 | Link #76 | |
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There is also nothing to suggest that their father is so "shocked" that he could only "pretend" to listen to Kyousuke's argument. He does not have an obligation to listen to Kyousuke, and he knows that. He punched his own son, believing he could. If he wanted to punch Kyousuke for threating his own father, then he would have done so. Likewise, if the father did not want to listen or believe Kyousuke's argument, then he could have refused to talk face to face -- so why didn't the father refuse? Because he chose not to refuse. The father chose to listen to Kyousuke's argument, knowing that he is not forced or obligated to. Knowing that the father is and always has been in control, there is nothing to suggest that he was "shocked" to see Kyousuke grab his collar. His facial expression did not show it, and there was no change in his tone until after Kyousuke claimed ownship of the eroge. As such, there is no evidence to prove that the father would blatantly tell a lie. We have to take what he said at face value. |
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2010-10-30, 14:25 | Link #77 | ||||||||||
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Do you honestly not know why I brought up farts ? Because they, like erotic fantasies, are natural and something we're all too familiar with, yet it's still embarrassing to admit you have them and they're thought to be inapproriate in most situations. You're just grasping at straws here. Quote:
Most semantic arguments I've seen fail to offer anything cogent at all, and this seems to be one of them. Quote:
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There is a certain amount of irony here. You keep assuming he was condemning all anime and made no effort to understand there's actually the distinction between that game and, say, various kinds of 'socially acceptable' anime. Did ep 3 tell us anything about that ? No, it's just some theory you cooked up, and all you're doing is repeating it with enthusiasm, all he did was point at the incest game and condemn it/caled it worthless/(insert adjective)... It is you who made a hasty generalization about him (that he was referring to all anime), not him making a hasty generalization about all anime. Quote:
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And that's what happens in real life if you try it on a very old-fashioned father in Asia. They are going to be shocked alright, if it's the first time you've ever done that. Then they are going to beat you (by instinct), ground you... but one thing is for sure: they're not going to agree to your request after that (unless you genuflect and make a solemn vow or something). Good luck with your new theory (which I've never heard of), perhaps you can have someone test it out in real life. I already know how it will turn out. Only a reasonable father would not beat you up after that. But of course, for the sake of your theory, we've already assumed this father is unreasonable and irrational. Quote:
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There is no connection. As I stated clearly, they have nothing to do with each other, Kirino's grades and the inherent nature of those games. I said it in the original post, and I repeat it now. There is no connection. They are unrelated. Kirino's grades could be bad, or good. The games could be harmless, or worthless, or stupid, or whatever. Kirino's grades don't yet prove anything about those games. Playing those games doesn't immediately imply Kirino's grades would somehow be affected. "Perhaps this argument is valid, you never know." <--- Not once did I say this. I asked a question. That if your results are good, does it mean your method was ? Obviously you can not draw any definite conclusion at all. Who is it to deny that your method sucked and there's a lot of room for improvement ? And yet who is it to deny you did everything in the best possible way ? Obviously there are ways to confirm that, but looking at the results is not how you do it. That's what "you never know" means, not "perhaps this argument is valid". The argument that "ok the results are good so your method was superb" is invalid, and that is exactly what I went to great lengths to tell you about. "You never know, the could very well be a connection between her hobby and her grades." <-- My original reply was "If the end results are good does it mean your method was? You can never know, perhaps your method was inefficient and the results could have been much more stellar." And that's what I mean, word for word. Who is it to deny that your method sucked and there's a lot of room for improvement ? And yet who is it to deny you did everything in the best possible way ? I specifically said that to further illustrate that there was no connection (which is something I had said in the very same paragraph), that everything was within the realms of possibility and no definite conclusions could be made. For someone to understand that as "there could well be a connection" is beyond the realms of possiblity, or so I thought. Quote:
The father didn't refuse to get it. You're going off with your own theory. Kyousuke wasn't being unclear, he had just talked about those new friends before that. He wasn't even using a metaphor, or employing any kind of subtlety. There is no evidence to support your claim that the father deliberately refused to understand the pic was of Kirino and her otaku friends. Quote:
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2010-10-30, 20:36 | Link #78 | ||||||||||
Twintails are wintails!
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I guess you were brought up in the belief that erotic fantasies are ugly and unpleasant... my heartfelt condolences. If there's any relation whatsoever between erotic fantasies and farts, then it's only that of opposites: while erotic fantasies are healthy and pleasant, farts are ugly and unpleasant. You shouldn't be talking with yourself so openly, people might look at you strangely That's exactly what it was, regardless if I think like that or not. Quote:
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If the father had continued to beat up Kyousuke, that would've meant that he still cared about him at least a bit and hoped that by beating him, he could get him back to normal. His father however has already written him off as a lost cause which can't be helped anymore, not even if you beat him up or do anything else with him. Quote:
What makes the game so terribly bad is that there's nudity in it! Oh noes! And sexual themes! Everyone will turn into raging beasts if they see that! Quote:
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What was that again with the "attention span of a goldfish"? Might be fitting there I'm indeed getting the impression that I'm the only one who thinks in this debate Besides, declaring yourself as "the room" and everyone else who has a different opinion as "the last person left" is very egomanic - which is why I'm passing up on a further reply. This is going nowhere anyway Quote:
In case you can't read Japanese, which wouldn't surprise me... you do know how to use a search engine and look up the Japanese rating of eroge?
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2010-10-30, 21:58 | Link #79 | |
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I think you and aeromono have discussed whatever idea you've had to death and are now finally starting to loop back to the beginning, so let's end this here and if anyone feels the need to debate anyone else's post point-by-point, please put it in spoiler tags so the wall of text doesn't make everyone |
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2010-10-31, 04:36 | Link #80 |
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So I have a question : Did the father understand the picture was of Kirino and her new otaku friends that Kyousuke had mentioned just before that ? Or just the 'normal' ones somehow thrown into the discussion? Last edited by aeromono; 2010-10-31 at 04:54. |
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