[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[dn072]

Sasuke's first time he used Ameterasu it was not his own eye,
It was Itachi's MS ( 397 page 2 )
The first time he uses is own it was versus Bee when his friends are in danger

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

sasuke didn't kill his closest friend. neither did kakashi... and probably not shisui either since it was most likely itachi

are you just assuming he unlocked it? we never saw it until the revelation. hence the reveal that sasuke had it

I do not assume anything and you do understand or least don't answer the crux of my argument : Sasuke was to awaken the MS upon Itachi's death regardless of his knowledge of the truth, ergo knowing the truth had nothing to do with awakening the MS.
Secondly Sasuke did partake in the death of the person closest to him, the only person close to him in fact since Sasuke had forsaken all emotional bonds but this one. Itachi also had his hand in the death of his closest friend and mentor Shisui. We have no idea of how Shisui awakened his own MS but considering what we learned about him he very well could have killed someone very close to him for the sake of the village. Kakashi is an anomaly and we still don't know exactly how he did it but it could be as simple as the fact that he feels responsible for Obito's death.

Finally regardless of the exact lowest common denominator necessary to gain the MS it's not just sorrow or Sasuke would have had it by age 7 and so would have a great many others Uchiha in history.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I do not assume anything and you do understand or least don't answer the crux of my argument : Sasuke was to awaken the MS upon Itachi's death regardless of his knowledge of the truth, ergo knowing the truth had nothing to do with awakening the MS.

how do you know that? from what i saw it was the opposite

Secondly Sasuke did partake in the death of the person closest to him, the only person close to him in fact since Sasuke had forsaken all emotional bonds but this one. Itachi also had his hand in the death of his closest friend and mentor Shisui. We have no idea of how Shisui awakened his own MS but considering what we learned about him he very well could have killed someone very close to him for the sake of the village. Kakashi is an anomaly and we still don't know exactly how he did it but it could be as simple as the fact that he feels responsible for Obito's death.

well my argument is that it isn't 'killing your closest friend' that awakens the MS. feeling responsible for itachi's or obito's death is simply not the same as killing them. sasuke didn't kill itachi. he couldn't have killed itachi. he wasn't nearly strong enough to do it. itachi died on his own accord. kakashi didn't kill obito no matter how you look at it.

also we could get into the difference between friend and family. during the VotE fight, sasuke acknowledged naruto as his closest friend. itachi is his brother. there is a difference if you want to get down to it. the crux of my argument is that it is not nearly as simple as 'killing your best friend'

Finally regardless of the exact lowest common denominator necessary to gain the MS it's not just sorrow or Sasuke would have had it by age 7 and so would have a great many others Uchiha in history.

except that it must follow after gaining a full sharingan which he didnt have at that time. also my understanding is that only certain uchiha have the potential to awaken MS. itachi spoke of this to sasuke after the massacre I believe. not just any uchiha could awaken MS, which is also why obito is more important than a lot of people assume. he had that rare capability

[Dengar]

Where in blazes does the assumption come from that Shisui obtained the Mangekyou?

[HasuMasu]

^ What? Didn't we see it on the crow?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Detective-san

^ What? Didn't we see it on the crow?

yes. that was shisui's MS that itachi implanted in the crow

[HasuMasu]

Exactly, so I thought it was established...

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Detective-san

Exactly, so I thought it was established...

it is. we just don't know how he activated it in the first place yet (or ever maybe)

[Dengar]

I though that was just a normal sharingan. But it WAS a loooong time ago when we saw it. Did it have any unique design?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

how do you know that? from what i saw it was the opposite

I'm curious to what you saw then considering both Tobi and Edo-Itachi confirmed this. Itachi's entire plan to brainwash Sasuke thanks to Koto Amatsukami was based on the fact that after Sasuke gained MS by killing him, Sasuke was going to take his eyes to gain the EMS.

well my argument is that it isn't 'killing your closest friend' that awakens the MS. feeling responsible for itachi's or obito's death is simply not the same as killing them. sasuke didn't kill itachi. he couldn't have killed itachi. he wasn't nearly strong enough to do it. itachi died on his own accord. kakashi didn't kill obito no matter how you look at it.
except that it must follow after gaining a full sharingan which he didnt have at that time. also my understanding is that only certain uchiha have the potential to awaken MS. itachi spoke of this to sasuke after the massacre I believe. not just any uchiha could awaken MS, which is also why obito is more important than a lot of people assume. he had that rare capability

That's not accurate, your argument was that the requirement to gain MS is merely to experience deep sorrow which as I've shown is ridiculous. Deep sorrow is something very common in this world whereas Madara was the first Uchiha to awaken the MS in countless generation. Sasuke awoke to the Sharingan when he was seven, he has been in excruciating sorrow forever since and yet only unlocked the MS after his battle against his brother.
Your argument about Itachi's strength is completely meaningless. It doesn't matter if Itachi was too strong for Sasuke to kill, what does matter is that Itachi set up their fight so that he would die against Sasuke just like he gained his own MS after he helped in Shisui's death regardless of the fact that Shisui wanted to die.

also we could get into the difference between friend and family. during the VotE fight, sasuke acknowledged naruto as his closest friend. itachi is his brother. there is a difference if you want to get down to it. the crux of my argument is that it is not nearly as simple as 'killing your best friend'

Please, go ahead.
This story is all about bonds, the MS is obtained from the killing of such bonds and further powered by stealing the very eyes of your kin. Siblings, friends or spouses and children I'd guess, seems to be an adequate requirement as long as they represent a close emotional bond to the perpetrator.

Originally Posted by Dengar

I though that was just a normal sharingan. But it WAS a loooong time ago when we saw it. Did it have any unique design?

Yes.

[Dengar]

Shisui also had that technique that could plant suggestions into people without even making eye contact, right?

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Shisui also had that technique that could plant suggestions into people without even making eye contact, right?

Danzo may have used Kotoamatsukami against Mifune since he said he could only use the jutsu once per day.

If Danzo hadn't used Kotoamatsukami on Mifune and just a normal genjutsu then he should have been able to use the jutsu again but he had to wait to use it against Sasuke but was stabbed when he took Karin hostage.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I'm curious to what you saw then considering both Tobi and Edo-Itachi confirmed this. Itachi's entire plan to brainwash Sasuke thanks to Koto Amatsukami was based on the fact that after Sasuke gained MS by killing him, Sasuke was going to take his eyes to gain the EMS.

when sasuke faced itachi he didn't have MS. after itachi's death we cannot assume that he did have it. when he attacked tobi with amaterasu it was with itachi's MS pattern and itachi's technique that he implanted in sasuke. we only first see sasuke with his own MS after he learns the truth of itachi and experienced extreme pain and sorrow.

That's not accurate, your argument was that the requirement to gain MS is merely to experience deep sorrow which as I've shown is ridiculous. Deep sorrow is something very common in this world whereas Madara was the first uchiha to awaken the MS in countless generation.

sure extreme sorrow is common, but having a sharingan and an uchiha body capable of manifesting MS is not common.

Sasuke awoke to the Sharingan when he was seven, he has been in excruciating sorrow forever since and yet only unlocked the MS after his battle against his brother.

no he hasn't been in excruciating sorrow ever since. he has gone on missions with team 7, trained, fought for konoha, went to orochimaru, made team hebi, etc... he only experienced extreme sorrow when his family was killed (too young to get MS) and when he learned of itachi's truth (got MS)

Your argument about Itachi's strength is completely meaningless. It doesn't matter if Itachi was too strong for Sasuke to kill, what does matter is that Itachi set up their fight so that he would die against Sasuke just like he gained his own MS after he helped in Shisui's death regardless of the fact that Shisui wanted to die.

its meaningful to what i'm saying in that sasuke didn't kill itachi. sasuke didn't kill his closest friend, be it naruto or itachi, to get MS

Please, go ahead.
This story is all about bonds, the MS is obtained from the killing of such bonds and further powered by stealing the very eyes of your kin. Siblings, friends or spouses and children I'd guess, seems to be an adequate requirement as long as they represent a close emotional bond to the perpetrator.

i totally agree. and killing bonds is when you experience extreme sorrow like i've been saying all along. its not as simple as 'killing your closest friend' it's been retconned since then since kishi wanted people to have MS who did not kill their closest friend to get it

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

when sasuke faced itachi he didn't have MS. after itachi's death we cannot assume that he did have it. when he attacked tobi with amaterasu it was with itachi's MS pattern and itachi's technique that he implanted in sasuke. we only first see sasuke with his own MS after he learns the truth of itachi and experienced extreme pain and sorrow.

... Ok I will try one last time before giving up.
Itachi explained to Naruto (as well as Tobi to Sasuke) how he intended Sasuke to gain the MS after their fight as well as hidding the truth from him. To put it in the most simple way : Itachi's death - truth = Sasuke with MS. So learning the truth cannot possibly be the trigger. Do you understand? I don't even know why you came up with these four sentences above that have nothing to do with the facts at hand because we don't have to assume anything : we were plainly told about it.

The rest of your post is similar, I'm not sure how to answer it more clearly than I already did, there have been 6 (known) characters in the last century alone to awake the MS but according to you no potentially MS wielding Uchiha ever felt sorrow in the last thousand years or so? And then -and this is possibly even funnier from where I'm standing- you explain to me that Sasuke only felt this sorrow just after the massacre, then stopped, then felt sad again 10 years later? I mean, seriously?

its meaningful to what i'm saying in that sasuke didn't kill itachi. sasuke didn't kill his closest friend, be it naruto or itachi, to get MS

Same as above, it annoys me because I wasted the last 5 minutes editing my post to sound less rude but I just don't see how I can put this in simpler terms.
The difference of strength between those two has no relevance whatsoever to the discussion. Itachi staged his last fight so that from Sasuke's point of view Itachi would die during their battle and he did that on purpose so that Sasuke would gain the MS.

i totally agree. and killing bonds is when you experience extreme sorrow like i've been saying all along. its not as simple as 'killing your closest friend' it's been retconned since then since kishi wanted people to have MS who did not kill their closest friend to get it

So no you don't totally agree because you don't understand. Killing one of the closest person to you is a very specific action, simply feeling deep sorrow is not.

[articuzwolf]

I think Tobi is Hashirama Senju or the 1st Hokage

since he was mentioned a lot in the last few chapters as courageous Ninja with ninjutsu that can be compared to the Sage of the Six Path

Image of him being ally of justice is already paved in our head

by making him a final boss/true villain surely will make things more interesting

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

... Ok I will try one last time before giving up.
Itachi explained to Naruto (as well as Tobi to Sasuke) how he intended Sasuke to gain the MS after their fight as well as hidding the truth from him. To put it in the most simple way : Itachi's death - truth = Sasuke with MS. So learning the truth cannot possibly be the trigger. Do you understand? I don't even know why you came up with these four sentences above that have nothing to do with the facts at hand because we don't have to assume anything : we were plainly told about it.

you are wrong. see ch 550 pg 13. itachi believed that sasuke would transplant his eyes to gain EMS... itachi told naruto nothing about sasuke gaining MS, just EMS. Do you understand? you are making assumptions

The rest of your post is similar, I'm not sure how to answer it more clearly than I already did, there have been 6 (known) characters in the last century alone to awake the MS but according to you no potentially MS wielding Uchiha ever felt sorrow in the last thousand years or so? And then -and this is possibly even funnier from where I'm standing- you explain to me that Sasuke only felt this sorrow just after the massacre, then stopped, then felt sad again 10 years later? I mean, seriously?

whats really funny is how rude you are when talking to me and being wrong to boot...you don't understand extreme sorrow. it wears off after time. its not like sasuke was experiencing extreme sorrow when he was trying to get the bells from kakashi's waist or when he was fighting gaara. he only experienced those intense emotions at the times the events that caused them actually happened. it's called human psychology. no matter what horrible thing happens to you, you don't feel the exact same sorrow for the rest of your life. it wears away in time and changes into other feelings like how sasuke turned his into revenge.

Same as above, it annoys me because I wasted the last 5 minutes editing my post to sound less rude but I just don't see how I can put this in simpler terms.
The difference of strength between those two has no relevance whatsoever to the discussion. Itachi staged his last fight so that from Sasuke's point of view Itachi would die during their battle and he did that on purpose so that Sasuke would gain the MS.

its fine. i'm used to you being rude. its just an internet discussion after all... bottom line is that sasuke didnt kill itachi. nagato killed jiraiya as an example of someone killing another person, since you don't seem to get it.

So no you don't totally agree because you don't understand. Killing one of the closest person to you is a very specific action, simply feeling deep sorrow is not.

this is true. but beside the point. as I've stated before people have gained MS without killing their closest friend, so it must be another cause.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

you are wrong. see ch 550 pg 13. itachi believed that sasuke would transplant his eyes to gain EMS... itachi told naruto nothing about sasuke gaining MS, just EMS.

You can't gain EMS if you don't have MS already.

As for the argument about when did Sasuke gain MS, i think the whole MS thing is somewhat messed up in this manga, there's not much logic in it. For example when Sasuke and Edo-Itachi meet Itachi is surprised that Sasuke can use Susano, why would he be surprised considering all that he knows and has learned about the new Sasuke already.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

You can't gain EMS if you don't have MS already.

of course. I'm just saying that itachi never said that he assumed sasuke would gain MS from "killing" him. for all itachi knew, sasuke was going to have MS when he faced him in their battle. itachi assumed sasuke would gain MS by some means or another, but he never explicitly says that sasuke would gain it after their fight. story-telling wise, we see sasuke gaining it after he learns the truth of itachi which suggests what i have been saying

As for the argument about when did Sasuke gain MS, i think the whole MS thing is somewhat messed up in this manga, there's not much logic in it. For example when Sasuke and Edo-Itachi meet Itachi is surprised that Sasuke can use Susano, why would he be surprised considering all that he knows and has learned about the new Sasuke already.

yea, it has been messed up since kishi wants people to have it who haven't killed their closest friend. it is now tied to extreme emotion. in sasuke's case it was sorrow and pain. and yea, itachi being surprised by sasuke's susano'o didn't make a whole lot of sense. since he forsaw a bunch of other stuff, he should have expected that

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

of course. I'm just saying that itachi never said that he assumed sasuke would gain MS from "killing" him. for all itachi knew, sasuke was going to have MS when he faced him in their battle. itachi assumed sasuke would gain MS by some means or another, but he never explicitly says that sasuke would gain it after their fight. story-telling wise, we see sasuke gaining it after he learns the truth of itachi which suggests what i have been saying

Story-wise it doesn't make sense to think that Itachi wanted Sasuke to kill his best friend. Itachi never wanted Sasuke to become a criminal, he wanted him to return to Konoha as the hero who killed the S-class criminal Itachi. But if Sasuke killed Naruto that would be impossible, furthermore that would do huge damage to the village, since in that case the village would lose the kyuubi for which the 4th hokage sacrificed his life. On the other hand if you assume that Itachi wanted Sasuke to do the opposite of what Itachi did then telling Sasuke to kill his best friend is reverse psychology, and doing such a trick is just what one would expect of Itachi. And in this case there's no way Itachi would really expect that Sasuke gains the MS by the time they meet.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

yea, it has been messed up since kishi wants people to have it who haven't killed their closest friend. it is now tied to extreme emotion. in sasuke's case it was sorrow and pain. and yea, itachi being surprised by sasuke's susano'o didn't make a whole lot of sense. since he forsaw a bunch of other stuff, he should have expected that

That part of the story is consistent, we know Itachi was lying about how he and Shisui obtained it, and as i wrote way back then it also doesn't make sense to be so specific in such a general matter. As i wrote back then it's probably the easy way to obtain it that way, but as usual in such stories only evil guys do such things as sacrificing others for their personal gain. Madara did it, and he ruled the Uchiha clan after that, so he could shape the clan to his own liking. But as we see they didn't like it and chose the 1st hokage over Madara. The "good" way is usually more difficult, maybe Itachi's mysterious illness is somehow caused by obtaining it risking his own life instead of killing someone else.

[Dengar]

By the way, every inconsistent things that relate to something Itachi has said in the past can all be explained by saying "Itachi is a big, fat, liar.".


Also, Itachi did kill his closest friend, he just didn't disclose the circumstances around this event.