Madoka Magica - Character Discussion - Kyubei

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Elestia

I disagree, we've been given a consistent bread crumb trail that all leads to one general theory.

No, we haven't. There's far more than just one viable general theory out there.

There has not been a lot contradictory evidence that meaningfully impacts the overall direction we've been culminating too.

Maybe not a lot. But there's been some.

Homura's statements over how Kyubey does not consider what he's doing tp be cruel hardly leads to Kyubey being a villain.

The only thing we have going against it is personal interpretations of what the evidence could mean.

No, we have more than that.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Elestia

I think Shinbo is saying to watch the characters carefully over the entire series. This entire deconstruction of the magical girls series focuses on the development of the characters in a way that no other predecessor before it has done before.

I love what you just said here. But I'm totally biased...

Originally Posted by Elestia

Because we are more used to external forces driving the plot along, but instead we're being given advice to keep an a closer eye on the girls, their perspectives, and feelings.

Hmm, external forces... since I have no idea what you mean, could you pose an example of what an external force might be?

Originally Posted by Elestia

And that is what we're doing. Mentar's predictions for the first couple of episodes went almost exactly according to his keen observation.

If he predicted that Mami would die and had observations to support that prediction, I would be quite impressed.

Originally Posted by Elestia

The entire speculation threads are entirely filled with arguments and discussions based on our own interpretation of the episodes shown.

I think we have given up trying to predict the plot. We are merely trading blows with our own personal philosophies, using the episodes as evidence - it is fun. :P

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

Well, I argue that generally predicting that the ending would be non-predictable isn't actually in the same category as predicting a specific ending that is predictable.

You win. I was just playing around.
Or was I?

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

Ah, but plot twists are specifically crafted to contrast with viewers' feelings. That's why it's a twist, and people generally like plot twists.

The bolded text practically screamed at me. Far be it from me to say whether people generally like plot twists... but if you are willing to make that claim, I will play along.

I also do not know if we are allowed to seek out inconsistencies in logic - not everything that happens in the anime is logical. We can say that the anime does not follow our logic, but that is just us. The anime could have followed it's own logic, or chosen not to be logical at all!

I realize this large post has one sentence relating to Kyubey. More proof this is more about the abstract than the concrete. /bedtime

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Another question just out of curiosity... if Kyubey doesn't end up being the antagonist, do you think you'll be disappointed in the ending?

Mmm... Let's wait until after episode 8 for this. In a little radio interview Sayaka's VA said something she probably shouldn't have. If what she said begins in episode 8 (provided she wasn't trolling), then one of my old theories would make a freaking lot of sense. We can speak after that.

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

Ah, but plot twists are specifically crafted to contrast with viewers' feelings. That's why it's a twist, and people generally like plot twists. It's the inconcistencies in logic that we should be wary of.

No exactly. It doesn't work exactly that way. The "feeling" is actually dramatic tension you're building to get to the climax. If you just break out of it at the end, you get what people call an "anti-climatic ending". Now, this might or might not be a bad thing, it depends. But my point is that while logic is very important, dramatic tension is paramount, and if you can be logical while respecting the tension building then you get a winner.

The argument is pointless though. We'll have to wait and see.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Homura's statements over how Kyubey does not consider what he's doing tp be cruel hardly leads to Kyubey being a villain.

But antagonist =/= "villain" or "evil" , you seem to think that if QB becomes an antagonist then there'd be no more moral ambiguity,I don't see why there couldn't be room for moral ambiguity even if QB is an antagonist.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Mmm... Let's wait until after episode 8 for this. In a little radio interview Sayaka's VA said something she probably shouldn't have. If what she said begins in episode 8 (provided she wasn't trolling), then one of my old theories would make a freaking lot of sense. We can speak after that.

Please send me a PM telling me what Sayaka's VA said. I'll gladly take the spoiler, lol.

This anime has a tendency to make me want to know things as quickly as possible.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by totoum

But antagonist =/= "villain" or "evil" , you seem to think that if QB becomes an antagonist then there'd be no more moral ambiguity,I don't see why there couldn't be room for moral ambiguity even if QB is an antagonist.

QFT. I keep saying this since episode 1 but no one seems to give a damn about it.

But you're totally right. There's no need for QB to be evil. He can be the true antagonist and morally ambiguous all the same.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by totoum

But antagonist =/= "villain" or "evil" , you seem to think that if QB becomes an antagonist then there'd be no more moral ambiguity,I don't see why there couldn't be room for moral ambiguity even if QB is an antagonist.

The thing is that Kyubey is already morally ambiguous. Even Kaijo and myself more or less admit that.

The only thing that keeps him morally ambiguous is the idea that what he's doing is (intentionally or unintentionally) helping humanity (i.e. contracting magical girls in order to fight dangerous witches).

Now, if Kyubey is revealed as the main antagonist, that will require a plot revelation that would render his actions not helpful to humanity. That means that any even remotely acceptable justification he would have for endangering the lives of teenage girls would then be gone. At that point, even I would call him evil.

In my opinion, you can't take Kyubey as he is now, and turn him into an antagonist on top of that, without making him evil.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Now, if Kyubey is revealed as the main antagonist, that will require a plot revelation that would render his actions not helpful to humanity.

To me he'd just have to oppose the protagonists,in this case the MGs,and since MGs themselves aren't really out to save humanity either (or at least Kyoko and Homura aren't) being opposed to the MGs doesn't have to mean he wants to destroy Humanity,in the end I could see "saving humanity" as not really relevant to the plot.

[Scrooge McDuck]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

The bolded text practically screamed at me. Far be it from me to say whether people generally like plot twists... but if you are willing to make that claim, I will play along.

I shall reiterate. Plot twist is generally what people generally expect when facing a mystery. Now, you could always say "then they should make it unpredictable and not have a plot twist". And if you think that's okay, to have a straightforward mystery, then I'll say no more.

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

I also do not know if we are allowed to seek out inconsistencies in logic - not everything that happens in the anime is logical. We can say that the anime does not follow our logic, but that is just us. The anime could have followed it's own logic, or chosen not to be logical at all!

But a show still needs to be internally logical. A diamond-allergic person in a world where elephants are made of diamond should have allergic reactions when eating those elephants.

Bolded are logically unsound things when compared to the real word. But the situation as a whole is logically consistent in the terms of that world.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No exactly. It doesn't work exactly that way. The "feeling" is actually dramatic tension you're building to get to the climax. If you just break out of it at the end, you get what people call an "anti-climatic ending".

Dramatic tension leads to climax. Misdirection leads to a twist. It's still to be seen which one Kyubey supposedly represent. I tend to prefer dramatic tension that stems from clear-cut conflict rather than ominousness.

[Dr. Casey]

Mmm... diamond elephants...

[Deconstructor]

Awaken!

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

But you're totally right. There's no need for QB to be evil. He can be the true antagonist and morally ambiguous all the same.

Everything is morally ambiguous. A rock is morally ambiguous because we cannot tell if it is good or evil. Kyubey is morally ambiguous because he helps the world by making Puella Magi, but tortures his Puella Magi. A killer that killed his whole life is morally ambiguous because he thew away the trash once.

I find it uninteresting to take that position, because anything can be proven morally ambiguous. I feel like you are trying to automatically rule out any arguments suggesting that Kyubey is evil or good.

I do feel that Kyubey is both good and evil, but am arguing that he intends to do more evil than good.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In my opinion, you can't take Kyubey as he is now, and turn him into an antagonist on top of that, without making him evil.

I can think of ways... here is one. Feel free to tear it to shreds.
Kyubey is the evil antagonist; he has been torturing Madoka. But at the last episode, he fixes ALL of the world's problems. That makes him good on the whole, no? Madoka's suffering was just a test!

An antagonist is defined as the opposing character against the protagonist. If you'd like to argue that Madoka is not the protagonist, I would disagree.

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

I shall reiterate. Plot twist is generally what people generally expect when facing a mystery.

Sure. But do people like what they do not expect? Or do they prefer what which is to be expected?
You are equating expectedness to enjoyability. So, by this logic, would the most unexpected plot twist be the most enjoyable? For example, what if Madoka was actually a space alien from the Big Bang and is working to figure out the difference between red and blue?

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

But a show still needs to be internally logical. A diamond-allergic person in a world where elephants are made of diamond should have allergic reactions when eating those elephants.

This is supremely strong and would convince most people. But I am prepared to deconstruct just about anything.

What if that diamond-allergic person has allergic reactions by growing 0.1 mm taller? Perhaps the anime chose not to explain that part, or perhaps the people of that anime only have allergic reactions on a different world.

My point here is that there are some things that will go unexplained. Just as we cannot say what happened before what happened before the Big Bang, anime writers make mistakes. They are only human... if you wish to say that one anime is inconsistent, then you have to say all anime is inconsistent.

Now, if you think there are certain things that are more important to be consistent than others, I would agree. That is the difference between Kyubey being a puppet and Kyubey being the Joker from Batman.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by totoum

To me he'd just have to oppose the protagonists,in this case the MGs,and since MGs themselves aren't really out to save humanity either (or at least Kyoko and Homura aren't) being opposed to the MGs doesn't have to mean he wants to destroy Humanity,in the end I could see "saving humanity" as not really relevant to the plot.

I'm trying to think of what Kyubey and the MGs would get into an epic fight over if it wasn't the magical girl system being horribly bad for the world, and I'm drawing a blank there. However, I have to admit that in theory, at least, you could be right.

We'll just have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

But a show still needs to be internally logical. A diamond-allergic person in a world where elephants are made of diamond should have allergic reactions when eating those elephants.

Bolded are logically unsound things when compared to the real word. But the situation as a whole is logically consistent in the terms of that world.

That's an excellent, excellent point.

This is precisely what I mean myself when I talk about logical consistency. Not that a show can't be incredibly weird and fantastic compared to the real world, but just that it internally makes sense.

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

I can think of ways... here is one. Feel free to tear it to shreds.
Kyubey is the evil antagonist; he has been torturing Madoka. But at the last episode, he fixes ALL of the world's problems. That makes him good on the whole, no? Madoka's suffering was just a test!

Ok, that I could see. In fact, that could be rather genuis. I'd get a really good chuckle if this is how it played out.

An antagonist is defined as the opposing character against the protagonist. If you'd like to argue that Madoka is not the protagonist, I would disagree.

Madoka is a protagonist, so I agree with you here.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm trying to think of what Kyubey and the MGs would get into an epic fight over if it wasn't the magical girl system being horribly bad for the world, and I'm drawing a blank there. However, I have to admit that in theory, at least, you could be right.

the MG's soul gem ending up being eaten by witch more often than not, and then kyuuubey collectign grief seeds.

If it means what it obviously could mean, i could see the MG not being pleased with it.

[Scrooge McDuck]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Mmm... diamond elephants...

I know!

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

So, by this logic, would the most unexpected plot twist be the most enjoyable? For example, what if Madoka was actually a space alien from the Big Bang and is working to figure out the difference between red and blue?

A... awesome.

*ahem* As far as plot twist is concerned, my stance is the most expected is not enjoyable. That doesn't mean that it has a linear progression up the unexpectedness scale.

Doing the most expected is the safety net; people might like it, but it is not exceptional. Anything besides that can range from awesome to horrible.

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

What if that diamond-allergic person has allergic reactions by growing 0.1 mm taller? Perhaps the anime chose not to explain that part, or perhaps the people of that anime only have allergic reactions on a different world.

When it's not explained, then we are free to raise question. Or raise bloody murder, depending on its importance. (is it just a minute scene in episode 2 when he's eating dinner with his family, or did he eat the elephant to save the universe in the climax of the final episode)

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

anime writers make mistakes.

But within a discussion about internal plot and characterization, we need to assume they do not. Else there's no point in discussing at all.

[Dharma]

About relying on things external to anime, most reliable thing is a good scriptwriting. If we can’t rely on that than we already screwed anyway.
I finished Mistborn trilogy recently and if there is a good writing that was it. It goes like this:
Protagonist: Why?!
I: Why?!!!
Brandon Sanderson: That's why!!!
After that I can only seat and repeat “oh shit oh shit oh shit” for about a minute totally astonished and dumbfounded by beauty of the revelation. Nearly impossible to predict, but foreshadowed many times and absolutely logical.

And what we have here?
Protagonist: Why?!
I: *facepalm* Because of QB. How can you be so stupid?
Gen: It is QB!!!!!
I: At last....
I’m afraid it does not count as a good writing. Not in my book at least.

May be there is some way for good “QB is evil” ending, just not that straightforward.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

A... awesome.

Luke, your feelings will betray you.

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

*ahem* As far as plot twist is concerned, my stance is the most expected is not enjoyable. That doesn't mean that it has a linear progression up the unexpectedness scale.

Ah, but we all have different "most expected" scenarios. You might expect Kyubey to be a puppet, and I expect Kyubey to be the mastermind. Sure, it may be awesome for me for Kyubey to be a puppet, and terrible for you. But it could be the other way around. I do not think we can all agree on one most expected scenario.

Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck

When it's not explained, then we are free to raise question. Or raise bloody murder, depending on its importance. (is it just a minute scene in episode 2 when he's eating dinner with his family, or did he eat the elephant to save the universe in the climax of the final episode)

But within a discussion about internal plot and characterization, we need to assume they do not. Else there's no point in discussing at all.

I could go on... but I am going to let you win this one because it was a very strong point. And we need to get back to Kyubey. Plus, there would be problems for me if I proved there was no point in watching consistent anime. Dharma probably said it best.

Originally Posted by Dharma

About relying on things external to anime, most reliable thing is a good scriptwriting. If we can’t rely on that than we already screwed anyway.

Good night.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dharma

And what we have here?
Protagonist: Why?!
I: *facepalm* Because of QB. How can you be so stupid?
Gen: It is QB!!!!!
I: At last....
I’m afraid it does not count as a good writing. Not in my book at least.

May be there is some way for good “QB is evil” ending, just not that straightforward.

We're seeing this series from a different perspective I think. IMO the main question here is not "Why?" but "How?". How is Madoka going to save the day (or not)?? Of course, everyone already expects her to eventually make a contract and become a magical girl. For most the only question seem to be whether she's going to save the world (or not) by making a wish or with her supposed awesome MG powers... In any case, everyone has no doubt she's going to make a contract...

Do you get where I coming from now? This is the freaking twist I'm seeing. This is the really surprising and totally unexpected ending I'm expecting. Even if Kyubey is revealed to be the true antagonist, I expect Urobuchi to crush everyone's expectations having Madoka saving the day (or not) by NOT contracting.

We already know the girls' soul is the actual source of the MG's power. We only need a few more facts to make this twist possible and logical, and then you'll have both a totally unexpected ending AND Kyubey as antagonist all packed together.

There's no point in discussing the likelihood of this twist to happen right now. It's too early and we need a few more clues. Let's just wait and see.

[Scrooge McDuck]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Ah, but we all have different "most expected" scenarios. You might expect Kyubey to be a puppet, and I expect Kyubey to be the mastermind. Sure, it may be awesome for me for Kyubey to be a puppet, and terrible for you. But it could be the other way around. I do not think we can all agree on one most expected scenario.

People's expectations might differ, true. But allow me to expound on what Dharma stated.

The show built on the expectation that Kyubey is evil so much (with ominous lighting, even) that when come the big reveal and it turns out that he really is evil, it'd be kinda unexciting. It'd be what most people expect. It'd be what some other people wish not to happen because of the obviousness. The former would not be surprised, and the latter's surprise would be along the line of "I can't believe they think this is a good idea".

Of course, there's always the possibility of them playing it straight compounding with another plot element (heck, maybe like your whole "Kyubey is evil but fix everything and it's all just a test" scenario) that is written so awesomely awesome that it would make even the former pleasantly surprised and the latter also satisfied.

Ah, good night.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

We're seeing this series from a different perspective I think. IMO the main question here is not "Why?" but "How?". How is Madoka going to save the day (or not)?? Of course, everyone already expects her to eventually make a contract and become a magical girl. For most the only question seem to be whether she's going to save the world (or not) by making a wish or with her supposed awesome MG powers... In any case, everyone has no doubt she's going to make a contract...

Do you get where I coming from now? This is the freaking twist I'm seeing. This is the really surprising and totally unexpected ending I'm expecting. Even if Kyubey is revealed to be the true antagonist, I expect Urobuchi to crush everyone expectation by having Madoka saving the day (or not) by NOT contracting.

Pardon for hijacking the conversation, but aaah. I see. What you hope would be the twist, I hope would be the climax. What you hope would be the climax I hope to be the twist. I can certainly see where you are coming from; those are the two things that the show has been mainly building, after all. Fair enough.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Dharma

About relying on things external to anime, most reliable thing is a good scriptwriting. If we can’t rely on that than we already screwed anyway.
I finished Mistborn trilogy recently and if there is a good writing that was it. It goes like this:
Protagonist: Why?!
I: Why?!!!
Brandon Sanderson: That's why!!!
After that I can only seat and repeat “oh shit oh shit oh shit” for about a minute totally astonished and dumbfounded by beauty of the revelation. Nearly impossible to predict, but foreshadowed many times and absolutely logical.

And what we have here?
Protagonist: Why?!
I: *facepalm* Because of QB. How can you be so stupid?
Gen: It is QB!!!!!
I: At last....
I’m afraid it does not count as a good writing. Not in my book at least.

May be there is some way for good “QB is evil” ending, just not that straightforward.

Jesus, can't you have a little more faith in Gen's writing?

I'll be frank here, QB being the minsunderstood good guy all along is the kind of cop out I expect to see in Nanoha, NOT in Madoka. Not like I imply that you said it but more because I keep hearing that suggestion regularly well enough to have my eyes roll.

[Scrooge McDuck]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I'll be frank here, QB being the minsunderstood good guy all along is the kind of cop out I expect to see in Nanoha, NOT in Madoka. Not like I imply that you said it but more because I keep hearing that suggestion regularly well enough to have my eyes roll.

Well, I think Kyubey being non-evil but amoral and efficient recuiter (for example) is already plenty disturbing and different from any other magical familiar out there.