2012-05-06, 12:06 | Link #261 |
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Age: 37
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Same here. Interviews are good for learning about the process of things. What ifs and speculation are a bit much. It's all too common to have fans who know more than the original creator and the questions are just pointless.
For example, someone asking why Naruto's clone's hand is a different size on page two comparing it to that of page three. Suggesting that it was due to a poor technique used by Naruto or something. It just so happened to be drawn that way with no special attention.
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2012-05-07, 11:11 | Link #262 | |
Kana Hanazawa ♥
Join Date: Jun 2007
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My understanding is that it works the same for Excalibur. He can create a sword that looks like Excalibur and has similar abilities, but it's something more like Excalipoor than Excalibur. It just lacks something compared to the original, so the downgrade is worse than with regular weapons.
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2012-05-07, 11:37 | Link #263 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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The problem is that UBW was described as a workshop that -reproduce- swords Emiya has encountered in his life, keeping the blueprints in the said UBW.
Granted, the ability can be imagined as a mere "cauldron" smelting material (prana) into the swords, so he could do swords of his own, but evidences and descriptions show that Emiya only replicate them, and does not actually take bits of them, to create an "original" weapon. The words used by Archer when explaining about his ability leaves little doubts about that. I'm also a bit annoyed by the contradicting statements regarding "traced Excalibur", considering the sword itself is a divine weapon forged by the planet, so Emiya being able to reproduce it is a bit weird (wouldn't it be on the same level as Enuma Elish anyway?)
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2012-05-07, 11:43 | Link #265 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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I'm pretty sure Shirou basically got a "Blue screen of death": he couldn't even comprehend Ea structure, and was unable to even make a "blueprint" of it, meaning he doesn't have even the grasp of "what" the material are.
Which is quite something, because he still could trace weapons the likes of Caladbolg, Caliburn etc.
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2012-05-07, 11:50 | Link #266 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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Yeah, Shirou was unable to even read in Ea. The only other weapon that he had similar problems with was Gem Sword Zelretch but he managed to overcome that one (although he felt that the result wasn't quite right. Rin seemed to think it was fine though).
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2012-05-07, 14:16 | Link #267 | |
Not Enough Sleep
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2012-05-07, 21:11 | Link #268 | |
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Join Date: Apr 2012
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2012-05-08, 04:25 | Link #269 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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You can insist that your interpretation is better, but don't pass it off as the author's original intention. |
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2012-05-08, 09:40 | Link #270 |
Crax
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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There was one item (Since I cannot be sure with Caliburn) that Shirou managed to trace perfectly, and that is Avalon. Since its concept is the 'ideal of all men' and thus absolutely perfect and cannot be destroyed, it fits extremely well with Shirou, who held in his heart an impossible-to-achieve ideal.
I also mentioned in the LN thread before (Though largely ignored >.>) that Shirou is a 'forge only for Saber'. It IS possible to replicate a weapon perfectly as long as you don't miss every detail about the weapon. Shirou/Archer's UBW will always replicate a weapon that's subpar to the original because he has no knowledge about the wielder's life themselves, but with Saber it is a totally different thing. To start with, Shirou has absolute disregard for his own life and cared only about others, so when he fought enemies and replicating their weapons - for the sake of his own life and ideals - it could never match the quality when he had wanted to be of use to Saber and produce a weapon worthy for her to wield. His skill had increased, but his heart would never wish as strongly as it did then. Again, remember that Noble Phantasms are actually the powers of concept. It is true that he cannot trace Excalibur, but he understood what Excalibur's concept stand for (I don't remember too well, but something like the hope and victory of all men?) and so can trace a weapon similar to that effect and cut down Angra Manyu. Lastly, about Ea. Gilgamesh owns everything in the world, and thus there is nothing from that world he cannot obtain, and in that sense, nothing in the world is fit as a weapon to match his status, because he is the one and only and absolute king of the world. Therefore, the only weapon that could match his status would be one that is apart of the world, a unique weapon that could easily destroy the world just as its master choose to discard his play toy. Therefore Shirou can never trace it because his skill allow to copy anything within the world - as long as he has the power - but not one that is alien to it. In fact, you can say Ea is in total opposite in attribute with Shirou: He wants to protect everyone's happiness, where Ea destroys everything.
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2012-05-08, 09:58 | Link #271 |
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I figured he was only able to project Avalon perfectly because he had it within him. He didn't really "trace" it like he does everything else, but rather materialize what was already there. It's why Archer comments about him "still having the sheath" in surprise, because he was expecting Shirou to have already removed it from his body.
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2012-05-08, 10:05 | Link #272 |
Crax
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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He later gave it to Saber before he projected it, and even if Avalon is inside him doesn't mean that he just trace it right? His bones are literally made of swords and jutting out of his body when he was half dead and his magic going out of control, but you don't see their ranks going up lawl.
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2012-05-08, 10:20 | Link #273 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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He actually has to comprehend the actual weapon, not the conceptual existence of it. Rin explained thoroughly the basis of his Magic, and from that point, he only has to figure the weapon in its essence to actually trace it.
Avalon is the only exception because it was within him. Hell, even with Saber's memories and all, he could -not- trace Caliburn perfectly either. Suffice to say, it isn't based on the wielder's life whatsoever.
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2012-05-08, 10:31 | Link #274 | |
Spoilaphobic
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Don't put words in someone's mouth.
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2012-05-08, 10:51 | Link #276 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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The "experience" of the NP has really no implication of how he needs them to trace the weapons. The proof is how Caliburn shattered like nothing. On the other hand, Shirou didn't need to see through Herakles past to replicate Nine Live Works.
Shirou actually can analyze the weapons and all the things related to them (thus, experience etc, assuming he can "comprehend" the structure), due to the nature of replicating NP. But past that, Avalon's case is a different story.
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2012-05-08, 12:30 | Link #278 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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UBW "projection" does recreate the experience of the traced object, that is indeed a fact and is the reason why the traced objects have even the skills of the original weapon. But that doesn't mean he has to "understand" the user's memories whatsoever (hell, he wouldn't have the opportunity nor the time to do that for EACH weapon Gilgamesh threw at him).
That being said, the main issue with your claim is that Avalon could be traced because he "understood" it and by the same logic, Excalibur could be reproduced perfectly as well. The thing is that Shirou does analyze the weapons experience in the same process, due to UBW, and is the very reason why he could replicate things he shouldn't be able such like Nine Live Works. Due to this, Shirou has been able to reproduce weapons and their skills without even knowing about their wielder, which says a lot of his ability to analyze the weapons he sees. The point however is that even Caliburn, being directly "explained" by Saber through her memories in Shirou's dream shattered (despite he did make a "perfect" duplication, considering how he went as far as recreating the maker's efforts, which is the base difference between normal projection and UBW projection). Therefore, even the most "intimate" memory doesn't allow Shirou to make the best reproduction of it. Therefore, the reason why Avalon was being replicated in such extent was because of the artifact was literally embedded in his body, which means his body is literally affected by the blueprint of the scabbard.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-05-08 at 12:52. |
2012-05-08, 14:39 | Link #279 |
Crax
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I'm actually no longer arguing about the Excalibur thing. As mentioned before, he was just reproducing a power with similar effect to Excalibur, one that holds the same concept.
And about tracing, what I meant is to replicate a sword perfectly, Shirou cannot help but need every single detail about the weapon's life and not just's its blueprint. It's of course possible to make a poor fake just basing on that, but the more he learns about the sword's life - the one that wielded it, the other weapons it has crossed against, etc etc - the closer to perfection it gets. But Avalon is obviously a NP of such standard that it could not be compared to even at Ea's level. The sheath itself was merely a symbol; what's most important is the concept it represented, and that means that the NP itself is something infinitely close to spiritual/conceptual than physical things such as materials, etc. Of course I am not denying that having Avalon in his body for so long has skyrocketed his Tracing of it, what you said is absolutely correct. But if I remember correctly, it was mentioned that, when Saber and Shirou both used Avalon together, they are not actually using two different Avalon, but two symbols of existence of the same Avalon. Hence that it why the Avalon Shirou traced is not only the best replication he has ever made, we can even say that he has reproduced Avalon perfectly.
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2012-05-08, 21:18 | Link #280 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Nope, two different ones. And Shirou can no longer repeat the feat after Fate because the imprint is gone.
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