[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by musouka

But aside from that, mystery novels are supposed to be logical in regards to why people do things.

If you believe murdering others for usually petty reasons is really logical, then I have to fundamentally disagree. Declaring that all human actions done by anyone in the real world is logical is being blind to what humans are.

The only thing that is necessary for a mystery story is that the culprit has a reason, and that we/the detective have enough clues that we can guess said reasons. That's great cause in reality a lot of people do things for not much of a reason. Sometimes due to pure unreasoned insanity.

I will never believe that killing others for personal gain is logical. Any reasoning that claims that it is implies that it's okay for someone else to kill you after, and no culprits thinks that.

[Disz]

Why the parents would be playing a trick:

I beleive it's actually a trick,inside of a trick.

The first trick is o play a ''game'' with ''Erika''.

The trick inside that trick is this:

Out of all rooms possible in the mansion,how and why for what ever reason did

Kyrie

fake in

KRUASS's room.

Obviously the trick inside the trick was that while they were playing the game,Kyrie was supposed to look for clues,gold or what not,or anything at all that can be used to pin him to get the money they want.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by musouka

4. What defines "Kanon" as "Kanon"?
Does he need to be wearing the clothes? That gives a sort of funny mental image of Shannon opening the closet and pulling out her spare Kanon suit and applying make up before jumping out the window and rushing out into the rain. Are there times in the story where "Kanon" is actually wearing the "Shannon" outfit and vice versa?

"It's time to serve dinner, me! We must take the form of Shannon!"
"Quickly, me! TO THE SHANNONCAVE!"
*jumps into closet*
"This is the SHANNONCAVE?"
"Look, it's really hard to have an ACTUAL cave around here."
"Tch, speak for yourself."
"K-K-K-Kinzo-sama!? What are you doing in the SHANNONCAVE?"
"I felt like hiding in a closet for no reason! That's just the kind of guy I am!"
"Well, I wouldn't put it past him, me."
"No, me, I definitely see Kinzo-sama doing exactly that."
"Also, I'm dead! Isn't that crazy?"
"That's very interesting, Kinzo-sama, thank you for sharing."
"It's really crowded in here."
"What are you doing here, Gohda?"
"Natsuhi makes me sleep here! I just want to be popular! Someone please talk to me."
"Sorry, got to go."

[Judoh]

"Quickly, me! TO THE SHANNONCAVE!"

What do you think works better? The Adam west transition? or the transformers transition?

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Originally Posted by Disz

Kyrie

fake in

KRUASS's room.

Obviously the trick inside the trick was that while they were playing the game,Kyrie was supposed to look for clues,gold or what not,or anything at all that can be used to pin him to get the money they want.

Good point, but I don't see how Krauss would ever allow that, unless he forgot about, which I doubt, since everything he and Natsuhi thanks about during the conferance is how to keep the siblings away from finding out.

[Disz]

Then they probably didn't agree on which rooms to hide in,or Eva and Kyrie found ways to make Kruass feel like an ass because they usually do,and then Nastuhi would just say don't listen to them,then as arrogant as he is,will just agree to some terms of an agreement,while Natsuhi face palms.

While there is no evidence supporting any of this happened,I'll just keep it in mind.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Disz

*snip* while Natsuhi face palms.

Arg now I want all the umineko chars to have facepalm sprites.

As for what defines "Kanon" as "Kanon"... or any furniture, I think fundamentally the definition of a name is mostly based on other's perception. It is preferable that Kanon considers himself Kanon but the essential conditions is for others to recognize him as such. There is the concept of liminality where the "border" of a concept becomes debatable (I guess an example is debating over wether or not aquamarine is part of "blue" or not) but ultimately "concepts" are just that, concepts, and their existence relies on other's recognition of them as such. Kanon simply cannot chose to stop being Kanon. He could argue about it, but then he'd have to convince others that he is not Kanon anymore (or others would have to be convinced for a reason or another that he is not Kanon anymore) for him to not be Kanon anymore.

[Renall]

Or it would have to be impossible for him to be Kanon. However, merely being thought of as dead would not make being Kanon impossible; all he has to do is show up again. "Kanon" is conceptually constructed by more than one individual, and even if all individuals but Kanon himself agree he's dead, I'm not firmly convinced he has the ability to so declare it.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Arg now I want all the umineko chars to have facepalm sprites.

I'm actually unsure why Ryukishi never made any. Besides Natsuhi who frequently talks about her headaches we know that a couple of the mothers also talk about having headaches in some of the episodes. Face palm sprites would express that well.

[Kitsu]

I'm actually unsure why Ryukishi never made any. Besides Natsuhi who frequently talks about her headaches we know that a couple of the mothers also talk about having headaches in some of the episodes. Face palm sprites would express that well.

Ryukishi doesn't like to draw hands.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Or it would have to be impossible for him to be Kanon. However, merely being thought of as dead would not make being Kanon impossible; all he has to do is show up again. "Kanon" is conceptually constructed by more than one individual, and even if all individuals but Kanon himself agree he's dead, I'm not firmly convinced he has the ability to so declare it.

Ah yes, I forgot to say that part, he also has to perceive himself as not Kanon. I wasn't talking about him being declared dead or not tho. The general definition of "dead", and as far as I know the only one that can apply to a person, means "not being alive anymore". There's very little ways to turn around that.

Other definitions of death applies only to very specific concept, such as deadline. These cannot apply to a human.

However I will counter my own point I guess...
There has been thrown around the general idea that, for example, "Sakutarou is dead" for Maria but not for Ange. It's pretty simple to understand if you try to be fair but it did open the door to a lot of speculation about the meaning of death within the umineko universe.

(The fair way to understand it is that "Sakutarou is dead for Maria" is a sentence that cannot be broken, you cannot say "Sakutarou is dead" unless you include "for Maria" with it. In the same logic "Kanon is dead for everyone on the island" could be a valid red, that doesn't imply him being necessarily dead, however such a thing was never said)

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Abrupt Love Trial idea.

Shannon and Kanon are separate people. One of them is definitely an illegitimate child of Kinzo and his intended heir. It is impossible to determine with certainty which one it is, even for them. In essence, they exist in a state of superposition, as currently, both are that heir and neither is that heir simultaneously. Only one couple can proceed to marriage due to this fact, as status of the family head is a required condition for it to work.

Moetrice is a personification of the rules of the board and possesses no physical existence. For her happiness with Battler it is a requirement that neither Shannon nor Kanon are that heir, because Battler needs to be one.

You've actually just summarized exactly what I've been trying to properly articulate for a long time (or, well, haven't really had time to write out ). It also makes sense that George and Shannon win in this case - not even considering the many clues that George is a culprit, they also have explicit plans for marriage and are leaning toward the "magic" Kinzo loved. As for Jessica and Kanon - not so much on either point.

I've been more on the lines that Battler as the discoverer of the gold might be a possible "escape solution" where the battle no longer becomes necessary. The discovery of the gold cancels out Kinzo's "intended" heir. There's no need to knock out another couple, and with the headship ruled out, just the thought that Kinzo favored half of Kanon/Shannon would be enough for the parents to allow marriage.

[Renall]

Actually, the marriages would probably be subject to the approval of the family head.

The family head would be Battler, not any of the parents. At that point, he can order Rosa to marry Gohda and kick Genji in the nuts and totally get away with it.

Okay, probably not.

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Renall

Actually, the marriages would probably be subject to the approval of the family head.

The family head would be Battler, not any of the parents. At that point, he can order Rosa to marry Gohda and kick Genji in the nuts and totally get away with it.

Okay, probably not.

Yeah, that, too, which is why she wants Battler and not one of the greedy parents.

(just what I need in my head...more crack pairings )

[k//eternal]

Quick Shkanon-based (sorry) thought on why Kanon rushes over to the mansion, wanders into Battler's guest room, jumps in the closet, then "dies": the Shannon costume was left in that closet and people had started wondering where Shannon was.

Not sure how Kanon justifies his choice of diving out the window to retrieve Shannon from the mansion to everyone, but it might be something like "I don't trust Erika so I'm going to sneak out this way".

For whatever reason, Kanon doesn't immediately realize Erika is in the room (not a detective after all), and when he does, he hides in the closet as well. (Perhaps he is also in the process of changing into said costume and currently naked. And actually a girl.) The scene in the closet reveals the truth about Kanon, which denies his existence.

[Renall]

Wouldn't they immediately get suspicious when they're herding everyone into the rooms? There can only be one of either Shannon or Kanon present, and if s/he doesn't tell everyone right out that the other one doesn't really exist, they ought to already be wondering where the other one went.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Quick Shkanon-based (sorry) thought on why Kanon rushes over to the mansion, wanders into Battler's guest room, jumps in the closet, then "dies": the Shannon costume was left in that closet and people had started wondering where Shannon was.

Now what was Battler doing alone in a closet with Shannon's costume for like one hour?

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Renall

Wouldn't they immediately get suspicious when they're herding everyone into the rooms? There can only be one of either Shannon or Kanon present, and if s/he doesn't tell everyone right out that the other one doesn't really exist, they ought to already be wondering where the other one went.

Quite probably! The issue is, for whatever reason, a whole bunch of murders were just faked and Erika isn't in on it. The logical thing within the concocted scenario is that Shannon got caught up in the crime somehow, though, so it's unlikely that anyone will be able to bring it up.

I mean, if you want to say the scene where Kanon vanishes from the room is him confessing when pressed about this problem, that works too. (Probably better, in fact.)

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Now what was Battler doing alone in a closet with Shannon's costume for like one hour?

Magical things

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Or it would have to be impossible for him to be Kanon.

Bah I'm going to regret saying this, probably... but you actually found the only way that Kanon can sorta do that. (Mind you, Shannon couldn't, unless Shkanon is true and is really a male)

Kanon is a man. By showing he really is a girl, he somewhat proves that he doesn't really exist (in a Shkanon idea). That still prevents him from being dead.

[Renall]

Why is that so? Kanon could be a girl even without Shkanon. Suddenly revealing you're a different gender changes people's understanding of Kanon, but doesn't destroy him, except in the sense it destroys "him."

Certainly not confidently enough to rise to the level of death, other than for certain bits of him.