2014-02-27, 12:31
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Link #33981 | |||
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Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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However, now that my... *ahem* perfectly healthy obsession with Umineko is out of my system, I can look at it a lot more objectively than before. There is no denying that Chiru is sloppily written, and is inferior to the question arcs in terms of organization. Everything just flies all over the place which causes the loss of fundamendal stuff somewhere along the way (not to say this isn't the case with EP1-4, but not to the same degree). Sure, the action and the characters manage to save the day. The story manages to carry itself in a very satisfying way, but objectively speaking, it is far from perfect. Quote:
Seriously, while there is an abudance of this sexism in Umineko I didn't pay much attention. I thought 'hey, they're just trying to be cute but failing' and anyway I was too engrossed with the story to pay it any mind. However, after doing some homework on Ryukishi's work you can't fail to notice that it is all over everything the guy has ever written. Quote:
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2014-02-27, 12:41
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Link #33982 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 27
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2014-02-27, 12:44
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Link #33983 |
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BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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To be honest, the moments of action in most of Chiru felt... kind of pointless. The non-manga version of the Battler/Erika fight in ep8 is a good example of this, it's completely without meaning. Spectacle conquers content in far, far too many points in Chiru, in no small part because of the divorce of the mystery angle and the debate battles from just battles generally.
Pretty much all the best action scenes in Chiru are tied closely to the plot - Beatrice vs. Erika in ep6, the ep7 Tea Party, the parts of ep8 ironically not involving Battler or Erika - but the others have always fallen flat for me. They're flash without a lot of substance. I was even criticized a bit for this myself, and it's fair.
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2014-02-27, 13:27
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Link #33984 | |||
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Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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AngeVSBeatrice over the Book of Truth is a very good example. It could have been very informative if handled differently. It's not the same if there is not something to fight about, something that is relevant to the plot, like per say, the Logic Error fight, which I consider to be one of the best throughout the entire series. Although I did get a kick out of the final battle in the Golden Land which was also mostly flash! (Cut me some slack, willya, it had a pirate hat and a fleet of Goats) In all fairness though, it does turn the characters into a magniloquent mob.
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2014-02-27, 14:27
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Link #33985 | ||||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
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 His Murder Case on D-Slope is basically a Japanese Murder in the Rue Morgue with more SM-sex and less monkey. If you want to see a nice movie adaptation that shows off how his works function, the film version of Moju and the "wild amalgamation of Ranpo themes" movie Horrors of Malformed Men give a good idea of his Eroguro (erotic-grotesque) style. It really is a shame he never really inserted any real comments about Japanese mystery fiction and left it at name-drops and nods. Quote:
I think he just doesn't think that deeply about what he says there, since nobody really bashes you actively for sexist remarks in Japan. I translated the section where he talks about this a little more: Quote:
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The manga so far is what the VN should have been. It gives answers to most of the gameboards, it clears up EP6, it gives Erika some well needed characterization, it shows what Ange sees in Eva's diary in more details, etc. |
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2014-02-27, 14:59
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Link #33986 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 27
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Ah, such BS Ryu
 How can he be so sexist when he is trying to fight it with the character "Eva"? Damn you, lol But I do think that Ryukishi's females are the strongest characters most of the time and better written. I don't believe there is a person who can disagree on the fact that Eva Ushiromiya is the most complex character he ever wrote, lol. Quote:
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2014-02-27, 15:15
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Link #33987 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Someone posted pictures from the last chap of Ep 8. In Prime Yasu looked like Shannon wearing a wig... and it seems the manga explains in details her drama, starting from how she was impressed by Battler liking big breasted girls and she wasn't and so on, probably dealing with the 2 missing years that weren't touched in EP 7.
Can I say I worship the manga SO BADLY? |
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2014-02-27, 15:42
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Link #33988 | |||
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Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Yep. A whole literary tradition of mystery fiction, and Umineko doesn't look at it properly. It's a wasted opportunity. But, best of luck with any novel translation efforts! Quote:
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 I must see at least some of those pictures, I must. And I'm thrilled that we might get to see the two missing years. |
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2014-02-27, 15:44
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Link #33989 | |
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Um, yeah, seriously guys, I know this is a sensitive topic around here but I don't think that single line haguruma posted really warranted such a violent reaction, especially when it was only a brief summary and not even a formal translation. It almost seems to have gotten to the point where anything Ryukishi says about gender is immediately met with comments to the effect of "It's best to ignore anything he says on the subject", without even trying to actually see where he's coming from or to put his points into context. As Renall has pointed out, his work evidently shows that he doesn't hold to the kinds of rigid gender stereotypes that people are accusing him of advocating, so why is everyone so quick to interpret his comments that way?
I'll admit that my gut reaction to that particular interview quote has always been kind of "come on, really Ryukishi?", but after reading what hagurama has translated, I don't think the point he's making is all that crazy; he just didn't put it all that well, which I think he can be forgiven for considering that he presumably had to come up with answers on the spur of the moment and didn't really have the time to fully collect his thoughts before replying. And it does seem a bit unreasonable to immediately interpret what he's saying in relation to a Western post-feminist framework when Japanese culture is obviously very different in that regard. Not that I'm claiming to know anything at all in depth about that, mind you, but it's pretty clear that their understanding of gender is still relatively essentialist and there are firm gender roles in Japan with regards to how one is supposed to speak, act, etc. So I think it's fair to say that the gender divide in Japan is currently considered more absolute than it is in the West, and Ryukishi is probably at least partly a product of his culture in that regard! From what I understand, Ryukishi isn't trying to say that "all men act this way, and all women act this way", just that women are more likely - based on a combination of innate tendencies, upbringing, and societal pressures - to think in a certain way, and that as a result of this, women in general would tend to be better-equipped to recognise and understand the themes that Umineko is putting across. That doesn't mean that any given woman is going to understand Umineko better than any given man, nor does it mean that all men are incapable of understanding (which, like Renall said, is obviously absurd because he himself is a man and presumably he thinks he understands) - it's just a statement of a general trend. Since the feedback Ryukishi has gotten from fans apparently seems to fit with this idea, I don't think what he's saying deserves to be dismissed out of hand. At least from what I have seen, Japanese media targeted at males does tend to portray love in a very two-dimensional and idealised way - and considering the massive proliferation of dating sims and eroge and such in Japan, I don't even think that what he says about the idea of "making out with their favorite girl being the ultimate goal" is even much of an exaggeration! He's not attacking males for thinking that way so much as that he's pointing out a real tendency in media targeted at males, and acknowledging that the way that males are continually bombarded with such messages definitely has a tendency to skew their thinking in that direction, which I don't think is that unreasonable. I think Renall in particular seems to be taking this as some kind of a moral judgment where Ryukishi is accusing all males of being shallow jerks who only care about making out with cute girls, but that really doesn't seem to be the message he's trying to put across here. As an example, when I got an online friend of mine to play Umineko, his reaction to the first George/Shannon scene in EP1 was basically along the lines of 'Oh this is so cute! Oh they're so perfect for each other, Shannon is so adorable, I'm so happy for her!' and he was pretty much rooting for them all the way through the series. And yes, after finishing the series and discussing it for a while, he did understand that the relationship was definitely nowhere near as pretty and perfect as he thought it was, but the fact that he even had that reaction in the first place kind of spoke volumes to me, personally, because it showed that he'd evidently been conditioned to see that kind of shounen style of perfect fairy-tale love as a kind of ultimate ideal. Personally, I've read enough shounen stuff that I'm more or less accustomed to cringing whenever anything romantic happens, because it's just so totally far removed from reality - and totally removed from anything that would actually constitute a healthy relationship too! - that I find it impossible to take seriously or care about at all. I've seen the same tendency throughout videogames, anime, and manga; I could easily count the number of romantic relationships in Japanese media that I've actually been moved by on one hand, so I think it's pretty wide-spread! And I'm sure that plenty of people who don't know any better end up being conditioned by reading a lot of that kind of material, to the point that they that kind of love is actually something that exists, and something to strive for. So when I first read the George/Shannon parts in Umineko, I actually just assumed that all the creepy possessiveness and objectification of Shannon on George's part was something that was actually meant to be admired and respected as 'true love' because that's the sort of crap that I've come to expect in Japanese media. Needless to say I was very pleasantly surprised when I realised there was so much more to it than that! So I think that what Ryukishi is trying to say is that, if your only experience of 'love' is the kind of thing you see in manga and anime, then you probably won't understand Umineko, and that that's the impression that he gets from a lot of the fanbase in Japan - particularly the male fanbase, because they're so frequently exposed to media that portrays romance in ways that bear no resemblance to reality. I don't think that's particularly sexist, honestly - it's a pretty valid point that, in my experience at least, seems to be fairly accurate. Also... Quote:
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2014-02-27, 16:18
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Link #33990 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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(also a summary of the chapter would be greatly apprecciated as it seems to contain completely new material not included in the VN) |
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2014-02-27, 16:56
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Link #33991 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 27
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My Japanese is poor...but does it really say something about Periods? Somebody TL it please.
Btw, don't you think we are getting too much details? We already knew this, why do we need to spell it out so clearly.
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2014-02-27, 16:57
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Link #33992 | |||
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If he views this as a problem, or sees it as something more complex that his work intends to address, why were so many of these secondary characters... well... largely just bait for exactly the kind of reaction he didn't want? If he was doing it solely with Shannon, and the point of that was as a criticism of that notion and the revelations about Shannon's nature and connection to Beatrice were meant to peel away that idealistic/romantic veneer, I'd be able to accept what you're trying to say more readily. But then there's a dozen cutesy fantasy girls in leotards with stereotypical personalities that seem to appeal baldly to that demographic. Quote:
I certainly get where you're trying to drive this with respect to him portraying something a more traditionally-socialized male readership might be more familiar with and then dismantling it to demonstrate that matters are more complex, and that perhaps a female audience would not be lured in by its surface appearances in the first place, but I both strongly question that notion and wonder why he would make statements that appear more inflammatory toward the former group rather than suggesting they ought to do something like examine why they view certain aspects of fiction in the manner that they do. Encourage them to question George and Shannon's relationship, not tell them that's the kind of relationship he knows they're generally expecting and that media have presented to them to like and that he expects that will make things harder on them. It's needlessly confrontational, in the same manner as the goats in ep8. He may not have meant to antagonize or demonize aspects of his readership, but by all appearances that's exactly what he did do. And it smacks of excuse-making. If he's concerned that his male readership didn't get at his point as quickly or as frequently as his female readership, perhaps he failed to properly address the issues he was aware of with respect to the way present media targets them. Quote:
And Yasu is regrettably not afforded any narrative opportunity for redemption, so she's left in a sort of moral limbo where she clearly didn't want what happened to have happened after the fact but isn't given the chance to grow and change in light of those hardships. The author could have portrayed that as one of the tragedies of the whole event (then at least we could accept it as realism; not everyone gets a chance to redeem themselves, or to fulfill their dreams), but I'm not sure he specifically intended to do so. Regarding his interviews, if he doesn't want to be misunderstood on this matter maybe he shouldn't bring the same confusing and contradictory message up whenever it's asked. I can accept him getting his point across incorrectly on the spur of the moment, but he has made a number of statements on what appear to be independent occasions that are rather perplexing given the greater degree of maturity and perspective he's actually demonstrated in his work. But because I notice these inconsistencies does not mean I am "mischaracterizing" him, because there is the distinct possibility that he is actually somehow unconscious of the fact that his work is more progressive than he is. Honestly, I find the rest of that "clarification" that haguruma translated to more or less support that. He seems quite fascinated with the notion that the gender of his reader changes their approach somewhat, but at the same time he appears to be rather unaware of what that actually means and what he as an author can do about it. I think that he is intelligent enough to try, and I think either consciously or unconsciously he did try, but I'm not sure how much of his effort is something he actively recognizes is an attempt to explore these issues. I don't know whether he has any answers or just wants to examine the problem, and I'm not sure he knows either. I'm also not convinced he understands women as much as he seems to think he does. If there's one accurate point that he's making, it's that he definitely functions best when he's trying to portray characters as they are as human beings, rather than as men or women. Arguably the weakest parts of Eva's character are when she's grumping about gender instead of just achieving and asserting her force of personality in a general way, and Ange's issues are largely (and realistically) gender-neutral. I suppose the problem becomes that gender is an important (indeed, crucial) aspect of Yasu's personality and later attitude, and he really could've had something to say by presenting, dissociating, and then re-associating the importance of self-perceived gender meaning in the characterization of a fully-layered human being (because, like it or not, those things do matter). He didn't, and looking back on it I'm not sure he was a good enough writer to do it. Most people probably aren't. I think maybe, hopefully, he wanted to, and I can see aspects of that sort of characterization for many characters (not just Yasu). But when he makes statements like those he comes across as either completely out of his element or just as captivated by preconceived notions as the readers that fascinate him. It's possible that isn't at all what he meant, but if so then his ability to communicate his true intentions is quite insufficient. In a way it's kind of funny: An author who writes a book about trying to get someone to understand your position through a roundabout and expansive work of fiction can't adequately express his positions except through a roundabout and expansive work of fiction. This is one of those occasions where he'd probably paint a better picture of himself if he said nothing at all, as his work has already spoken far more effectively about it.
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2014-02-27, 16:57
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Link #33993 | ||
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Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Though from the looks of the actual statement, yes, I don't think he is being that unreasonable. Clumsy perhaps, but not unreasonable. These stereotypes do exist and they feed on themselves (especially that about the moe culture which he seems to satirize so much in Higurashi). That being said, he should really, really refrain from making any more clumsy statements about the two sexes. It really does leave a bad taste inside his works. From Higurashi to Rose Guns Days you expect to read phrases like 'my foolish manly pride' and 'as a man I can't afford to lose' that don't have a trace of realism. It is really annoying because all of those are so flat and out of place, his characters don't even seem to support that, Natsuhi for one, has more foolish pride than any male character in the cast. Sometimes it does feel like he is just making fun of eroge games (like Key's who were an inspiration for Higurashi) and the way they treat male characters, but most of the time it just feels creepy. And don't get me started on Battler's breast syndrome. Just... urgh.... Quote:
It's a good thing that we get these revisions in the manga. I suppose it proves Ryukishi is aware EP8 was sloppy-work and is somehow making up for it.
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2014-02-27, 18:22
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Link #33994 |
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I think/fear the real problem is that either Ryukishi isn't good enough at driving his point across or, by trying to push the readers to think about it, ends up making it too vague and unclear so that it becomes hard to get it... same as the truth of Umineko.
The way I sympathize with PrimeYasu is by assuming she was in such messed up mental state she wasn't really thinking straight but that, at the same time, her own actions were more like a cry for help than a honest wish to kill people, sort of like Rosa, who escaped in the forest not to really leave her house or to disappear in it but because she wanted her parents to worry for her. So she sends out a letter that invites everyone to solve the epitaph and makes out a rule that says she'll stop if they solve them and basically, deep down think they'll surely solve it as she after all managed to solve it on her own. They just need the proper motivation. In short deep down she wasn't trying to kill them, she just wanted to go and show them she was so desperate she considered it... same way as Rosa didn't really want to disappear but she fantasized over it and acted over it. Which can be stupid on Yasu's part but justified by the fact she was in a mindsetting that stopped her from thinking straight and therefore realizing it... or realizing which effect it could have on the adults to show them the gold and the guns... which can work as she's pretty young and focused on her own issues to really think forward that much. So, while still thinking she made many wrong things, I can understand why she picked up the wrong decisions and not the right ones and I can put her own sins in a different light as well as find the subtle critic in her own actions. But all this is my personal interpretation. Another person, reading Umineko, might perceive her actions differently because really, it's never clearly states, differently from how it was for Rosa, that he did it not witht he intent to harm but just to have attention/help. Actually one can even assume the opposite and even feel that Umineko is trying to say 'hey, she had issues so what she did was the right thing to do, understand her!' instead than 'due to her issues this girl, who was left on her own, took the wrong decision and ended up causing horrible things she couldn't even imagine and when she was unable to fix them ended up taking other wrong decisions'. So, instead than a blurry way to put things, obscuring many truths, it was better if Ryukishi were to force us more to wear Yasu's shoes and walk in them so that we would have to look at the world in her own distorted vision and realize what she could see and what she couldn't. Also... it seems the chapter in which Yasu's past is shown is supposed to be called "interlude —Ikuko Hachijo—" Is it supposed to hint to a confirmation that Yasu and Ikuko are the same person? |
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2014-02-27, 18:49
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Link #33995 | ||||||
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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So, I mean, if you're looking for a definite condemnation of George's actions, it's not really there, because Ryukishi generally tends to lean towards understanding people and sympathising with their actions - which can indeed lead to a failure to adequately convey that their actions were still wrong regardless. (Kinzo in EP7 is a prime example of this!) But once we learn about what Yasu was really going through in EP7, it is definitely possible to go back through the series and see for ourselves how much damage George's attitude caused when we think about how the things he was saying and doing must have made her feel. It's not explicitly spelled out, and I'll agree that maybe it should have been, but I do think it's there. Quote:
For the record, I'm not necessarily saying that Ryukishi was particularly intending from the start to explicitly deconstruct stereotypical male ideals of love or anything, but was probably just trying to paint a three-dimensional picture of love in general, and to point out that it's not necessarily the pure power that can overcome anything which it's sometimes portrayed as. It seems to me that his thoughts on much of the male readership failing to get the point are more down to him reflecting on the fanbase's reactions and the reasons for that after the fact. It seems like he was really hurt by the fanbase's lack of understanding once the series was over, so I'm sure he thought a lot about why his point didn't get across so well to many people, and I think that what we're seeing in those interview quotes is probably the result of that. As for the comments being "inflammatory"...well, I'm not sure that's the intention, though they certainly seem to have caused a lot of negative reactions here. But to me, none of what he says really comes across as insulting or judging the male readership for failing to understand? It seems to me like he's just reflecting on the reasons that women may have responded to the work better, and giving his thoughts on that, rather than somehow criticising the male readership for not getting it. At least that's the impression I get anyway. Quote:
And it's impossible to demand her to change her behaviour, or to redeem herself, because she's, well, dead. I do think that the tragedy of that was conveyed, by the way Battler cried over her corpse in EP5 and lamented not being able to save her - but I think he wanted to focus more on what happens after her death. The crime has happened; we can't stop her, we can't save her, we can't do anything. But we can understand her and see what led her to despair, and that understanding is the closest thing to 'redemption' that we can give her - we can let her rest in peace, in the knowledge that someone did achieve the understanding she was looking so desperately for, even if it happened after her death. Which is what we see with "Beatrice's funeral" in EP7. I think that has more value than just emphasising the (quite obvious) message that what she did was bad and it would have been better if it hadn't happened - because that doesn't change the fact that it did, and understanding exactly why it happened is the only real way to satisfactorily put it to rest and move on. Quote:
As for everything else you say, about Ryukishi not really putting forth a definitive message and not being completely sure of exactly what he wants to say, I pretty much agree with that. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but I think we've more or less had that discussion before, so I'll refrain from going over old ground. Quote:
But as I said before, I am pretty much completely ignorant about actual Japanese culture beyond what I see in anime and such, so I won't belabour that point too much! I just think we should be wary of our tendency to read our own cultural values on to foreign works. |
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2014-02-27, 18:53
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Link #33996 | |
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Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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I always quite liked the Yasu as Ikuko theory, but if there are extra hints suggesting it's true I'm not sure quite what I'd think.
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They're really getting in depth into the gender issues, aren't they. Flat-chestedness and (presumably) periods or rather the lack thereof. In the scene there where Yasu's feet are visible, it looks to me as if her left foot has a big scar on it. |
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2014-02-27, 19:13
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Link #33997 | |
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2014-02-27, 19:32
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Link #33998 |
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It has been a while since I last posted here. It seems that the Uminkeo fandom is active as ever.
So I guess the manga also confirms that the Beatrice disguise involved a blonde wig. Given the depiction of Yasu as blond with Lion, people would assume the blond hair was the natural and Shannon/Kanon was the wig. Also in regards to the Ryukishi interview, I do think it is a little weird about making such large generalization about each gender because many people did not understand the motive for the mass murderer(s). I think the problem more was the lack of depiction of Yasu's mindset during the two years before the incident. I get that he wanted to avoid revealing too much but the downside is that many people are going to misunderstand/get the wrong impression. At least he admits it but I believe it is the bigger issue than how men or women perceive "love". |
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2014-02-27, 19:51
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Link #33999 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Not that it really help how Kanon seems to have a different hair colour... or how the manga portrayed little Yasu with long blonde hair... Quote:
However there are two problems for this: A) the VN is a massive work in which those references (as well as many others) often get lost if you don't know the solution already. This have as a result that once you get at the end of Umineko, as you likely have lost many of them, you end up not understanding how Yasu's mindset was and being so unsatisfied you might not want to re-read such a massive work. B) Yasu's mindset, or better her heart, was probably one of the most important points if not the most important of Umineko as a whole and one that should have been underlined the most so as to lead to a good understanding of it. The fact is obscured and presented in such a hidden way ends up hiding it, sort of like how Battler claimed that if Beato wanted to write a 'love you' letter she should have made it simpler. Despite having Battler say so Ryukishi insisted in his roundabout way in Ep 6, 7 & 8 which didn't really help and that's probably the reason why people is enjoying EP 8 manga version more as it's way more direct in answering to what we wanted/needed to know. |
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2014-02-27, 19:57
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Link #34000 |
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Lion's very existence is clearly a fantasy. Everything is perfect, he's beautiful and intelligent, etc. Lion is not necessarily "how Yasu would look if accepted by the family" but "how Yasu wishes he/she would look if accepted by the family (in the specific manner Yasu has imagined he/she would be)." His appearance is almost certainly born out of seeing the portrait, connecting it with Yasu's belief in her personal history, and extrapolating to the ideal. It never should've really been taken as a hint of much (except, perhaps, that Yasu was born male).
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