2015-03-23, 17:34
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Man they should also release a PS3 version (or even a short OVA) of these additional tips. It would be great to hear Daisuke Ono's performance as Black Battler again, since he did a good job in Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS. Quote:
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Miscellaneous: By the way, did anyone notice that Black Battler is probably bisexual? He says sexual innuendos to not only the female characters when he wins, but also to WILLARD H. WRIGHT OF ALL PEOPLE?! Also does anyone remember that when Battler and co. asked Lambdadelta for help in EP8, she sighs and says something along the lines that she is a student and that she has cleaning duties? Could this mean that she is an avatar of a real person in the real world as well? (Man I sure am hoping that Lambda is actually Tohya and Ikuko's kid that has a fixation on their pet cat). |
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2015-03-23, 18:23
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Link #35002 | ||||
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So many new interesting posts...
long post I apologize. But please read through it, I think I might convince you now. Quote:
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 but I think its beato that gives up and its sayo that takes over. because it was primarily beato that loved battler. this answers your red truth you later mention "beato died in october 1986". also, it fits with: "who killed beatrice?"Quote:
So for the next link..., please click on it only if youre ok with stuff like that and if you're over 18. ("erikas" (sayos) is "custom made" though. smaller and not removable like this one...) http://www.neatorama.com/2006/12/20/...et-dream-ring/ I dont want to say its not possible for erikas ring to refer to another ring, but...honestly, this is like 100% what erika is talking about during the wedding. I find it really really hard to believe that they are talking about anything else. (sorry, again, its not like I really want this to be true, its just that I absolutely cannot think otherwise :S) its so obvious what the scene in meta is hinting at...: (I almost dont dare to send the link in this context) http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...5/c021/45.html This is one of the manga scenes Im talking about: http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...4/c015/38.html (ring is "warped" like everything in the meta is a warped element of prime) Id like to quote the vn about the room now too, cause this explains it faar better than the manga, but that is too much text :P you know what part Im talking about anyways. Really, this thing cant effect anyone who is more womanly down there... Let me say it quite clearly - the guy was tortured until he couldnt take it anymore and went to the meta. there is also ep 2 which points to that - he did have a bad ending there and was "torn apart" by the goats..its pretty clear that this is referring to torture. And bern says a the end of ep 2: "if you have many more endings like this, your heart will die". In prime he did have those "endings". And the final "bad ending" was with this thing that the wedding is all about, and from that point on he is pretty much "dead" in prime. while in the meta, there was always someone that helped him get back up on his feet (like even bern did in ep 2 by cheering him up), in prime there was noone.Just remember when in ep 6, he wanted just "anyone" to come to help him get out of the room...well, in prime they are all dead, so this is impossible. first he thought "I wont die, I cant die", but at the end, after the story with the "ring", he didnt make it. here: http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...5/c018/43.html see the scene there? I mean the chain-scene.and also:-when he says as long as I can think...I wont die" - I want to remind you of beginning ep 3, the 7 sisters of purgatory always hit him when he said something wrong. now, in a torture room in prime we know what kind of "game" those two are playing, dont we? battlers got to solve the riddles sayo gives him and if he cant do it then he gets tortured. thats why after ep 2 when he gave in he had such a bad ending. in ep 3 when the seven sisters of purgatory stab him whenever he says something wrong, he says "if I dont consider myself lucky to see these asses, I wont be able to stand it." Now in prime he didnt see anything so that basically says he doesnt stand it. and a logic error is the worst error you can make, so thats why hes punished the way Erika does it in the wedding-ceremony... ) after the "ring"-scene in meta -battlers heart died, he forgot everything and was locked in the creepy room where he reexperiences some stuff in a warped way after the "ring"-scene in prime-battlers heart died, he forgot everything and was locked in the meta-world where he reexperiences some stuff in a warped way I understand that we could also interpret it like you did. but the meta is primarily battlers reexperiences of prime (like its shown in the creepy room in ep 6). beato is forming the world and giving it the possibility to exist through her cat box, but the meta is battlers "closed room" - Erika ep 6: "we're going to lock you in the closed room you yourself created". to me it seems now like beato even made it possible for him to enter the meta in the first place. And that she allowed the world to exist, for him so he could cope with it, solve the riddle he is supposed to solve, repent for what he did wrong and then get back to his original world and get out of the room. Thats how I see it now. When battler didnt know what to do anymore, beato let other people in,like virgila and ange, to help him. (though she is not only noble, at the end of ep 4 for example, she really is quite the a*** to him, but generally she does want battler to win). and the meta is an "alice in wonderland" not so much of the fear a person has (though of course, that is very important too) , but more of the things he experienced. the elements for prime are all there, they are just warped. anyways, sayo loved george. she wanted to start a new life with him ((in ep 8 manga confession). I dont think that the thing we're talking about here fits very well, does it? I could still see that sayos afraid of the time george finds out about her issues, but what would the the ring be supposed to symbolize in this context? the hints for the locked room fit, the torture-references fit, the age-discrepance fit, when-did-the-meta-start fits, all the meta-hints to prime fit, ikukos role fits (what about her asking the doctor to keep silent like kinzo did in the situation with beato), the "coincidences" finding all the scrolls fit, the parable of the torture fits... also, touya ep 8 manga to ikuko: "its really nice how the ring was hinted at several times". The ring is important. Imo its one of the most important elements of the story. Quote:
1. no, he only went through the meta once-until he solved the puzzle and left the island with beato. the meta ends there, touya gets back to his own body and is let out. the books touya and ikuko later write are not the meta we see, as you've shown already when you solved the ange-paradox 2.I dont really get this "but still", but Ill try to elaborate on it a bit they showed you cant find the room in ep 4. battler tried to get access to the dungeon, but he couldnt get into it. also:under the kuwadorian theres a military base, that was constructed not to be found. there are many hints that show you, you cant find it. btw ,the whole family did never find the kuwadorian, for years... and it was even more natural to assume battler was dead if eva thought and said so. also, its the year 1986, so part of our technology today wasnt invented yet. there are hidden rooms in umineko, like the golden land, and its always hinted at that they are hidden (for the locked room, primarily by several "walls" of metal bars in ep 4). and its really probable that eva did assume battler died in the explosion. and she probably told the police at least some things. I found two hints for that: 1- eva reaction when ange accused her of having killed her family. she only reacts differently once ange says "give me back my onii-chan". she might actually have felt responsible for letting the bomb go off even though there was still a survivor from evas perspective. 2- evas diary. ange reads it and afterwards completely accepts it when battler says in ep 8 that he is already dead. its like a confirmation for her what she read in the diary. if eva didnt write anything about that, she probably would still have the hope that he could come back. but eva most probably thought he died in the explosion. 3.beatos motivation after having lost the game is in the beginning, like I said, probably to help him. like she says in ep 5 "I knew a man...and the suffering he went through when he had to abandon this belief. I wont abandon anyone! I wont let a human be the culprit"! Because thats what battler doesnt want - he doenst want the culprit to be one of his own family, thats the worst truth for him, as its shown in the games 1-4. so she is playing "who is the true culprit" with him. I still dont think she was just a pure saint though, or else she wouldnt have died with so many regrets. like i said, in prime, she really urged him to think about her "heart" - as seen in ep 3. we can say this one thing with absolute certainty: beato, even after she died, for some reason still wanted battler to solve her riddle, even after she already had lost her game. 4. she is wounded yes, thats why we thought the magic ending is the real ending. but there were enough other wounded people that didnt die. she was shot by the broken gun after all, and it later shows, by the way jessica is killed, that that gun is pretty much no good for killing people. Sayo could have also bitten her tongue or something while falling. I think there are enough hints that show us sayo didnt die.i also interpret it as "beato is wounded", not "sayo is wounded" - i know its techically the same, but the fact that such an unimportant (<-my reading) wound is mentioned is imo a story-telling devide that tells us: beato will die soon. 5. hehe, thats what Ive been saying - beato died the second day in october 1986. at that time, she is "killed" by sayo and constructs the world of the meta. sayo takes over from that point on. 6. yep, Ive been thinking about this as well. but theres still sayo, and in the meta, it was always ronove who brought stuff for him to eat. If I remember right, it was not even once shown in the meta that he got food by himself, right? the long chain in ep 6 locked room also shows that he probably IS able to leave the room at least some meters. "it reaches quite a long way into the floor". theres also a motorboat that still works hidden there under the kuwadorian if someone wants to get new stuff to eat, this person can do so. You know -this sayo&battler situation is like a giant repetition of the kinzo&beatrice situation-just reversed. Thats why the bunnies say in the wedding battler is playing the part of the bride. we all know how kinzo managed to get the food for beatrice, by a hidden port. and we know of this other hidden port. and see: anges investigation resulted in: there are two ports on rokkenjima. its not: there are three ports. but in fact, there are three! -> neither the police nor anyone else did know about this port/this part of the island. only sayo did.Also: erikas plans in ep 6 for their life as a married couple are probably not just some random delusion -like everything else, it refers to prime somehow -"youll just be a puppet. I wont even let you die". from my theory results that someone saved him from the room, this someone was sayo as ikuko. I already explained in the last post what is hinting at that. the car-accident never happened, thats why touya never sees the traces of the accident on the car. its just a story ikuko told him. and the reason she lies is because she knows how he got away from the island, while touya confuses the meta-end with what really happened. kinzo and beatrice <------------------------------------> sayo&battler k is obsessed with b <-------------------------------------------> s is obsessed with b k longed to see b again, waited for years and turned to magic <------> s longed to see b again, waited for years and turned to magic k keeps b confined <-------------------------------------> s keeps b confined k keeps b hidden from everyone else <-----------> s keeps b hidden from everyone else over years<---------------------------------------------->over years b doesnt know who she is <--------------------------> b at the end doesnt know who he is b is "revived" as another person (as the 2nd beatrice) <-------------------> b is "revived" as another person (as touya) k carries injured b away from the island<-->s as ikuko carries injured touya (after he solved the riddle in the meta) away from the island beatrice is the bride <----------------------------------> "battler plays the part of the bride" (quote-bunnies) k asks doctor to keep silent about her <---->s as ikuko asks doctor to keep silent about him uses hidden port to get food-supplies <---------> uses hidden port to get food-supplies k lives in a seperate mansion from b <-> s as ikuko lives in a seperate mansion from b (explanation: s as ikuko chose a new mansion to live in close to the sea - hint hint hint) k comes to visit b whenever possible in those years <---->s comes to visit b whenever possible in those years (explanations:ikuko lives in the other mansion at the sea, she goes to rokkenjima by boat) k abuses b <------------------------------------> s abuses/tortures b first b killed herself <----------------------------> b "kills" himself by going to the meta they arent officially married but k considers b his wife <---> they arent married but s considers b her husband after the "wedding"(ikuko is still not married because of that) all of this results from the three points: battler locked in a room, spent years there, meta occurs in the time after battler "dies". now, noone tells me that this is a coincidence...and its shown various time in the games that "kinzo" talking about his ceremony and wanting to meet beato again is actually beato talking about her ceremonies and wanting to meet battler again. Again, at the end of ep 5 when battler finds the truth and the pictures flash by- the last one you see for a very! brief moment says "kinzo is trying to keep me away from reaching the golden witch". Do away with the illusion of kinzo and you find what the golden witch wants. Then think about krauss' comment in ep 4 about the torture-room under kuwadorian: " "kinzo" was having "fun" down here all alone with "beatrice" ". Erika - yet another personality / character trait of sayo btw, erika is connected to sayo too in some way-ikuko/featherine is the master of bern and bern is the master of erika. and erika in the meta does more or less what sayo did in prime. imo, from a story-telling pov (not necessarily from in-game though) you can see erika as another identity of sayo- that explains why battler asks beato in the end , ep 6 (when beato and battler are about to shoot erika): "are you sure?". erika is the "perverted" personality of sayo, thats why she does in the wedding what sayo did. she is the detective, the antagonist of the witch and she is responsable for the fact that beato died in ep 5. and the same Erika-personality-trait of sayo is replacing beato in 1986, "killing" her through that. thats why battler could get out after ep 6 if he wanted to, once erika was shot. and it also explains why battler and erika are called "archrivals" (ep 8), cause its the erika in sayo that does what she does to battler in prime. thats what i mean when i say everything fits... Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-23 at 22:07. |
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2015-03-23, 22:10
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Link #35003 | ||
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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2015-03-24, 11:16
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Link #35004 | |
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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Inbuiltx9,
Why I think the Beatrice that demands Battler to remember his sin represents Sayo herself is because the sin was between Battler and her, not Beatrice, said even in red. The character of Beatrice would then take over and finish up the serial murder mystery as the witch tasked with her resurrection ritual. No doubt the ring is a very important clue, both the ring of the head and the diamond ring. Beato possessing the ring of the head is self-explanatory, plus in EP3 it is shown the ring is passed to the finder of the gold, which tells Beato indeed possesses "golden magic", and the Eva who survived most likely had something to do with finding the gold. The diamond ring is also a thing that led to Sayo's game, making the family conference of 1986 a time limit for her decisions. Also ties into the game not happening if Battler came back a year earlier or later, as Sayo would probably have chosen Battler if he came back earlier, and would have already promised to marry George if he came back later. It's probably pretty customary to have a diamond ring when talking about marriage, but both the ring Erika gives Battler and the one George gives Shannon are similar diamond rings in the manga. What if, when Battler says "I'll never forgive you for defiling Beato's ring" he doesn't only mean the ring of the head, but the one he received? A clue that says Beato has both the diamond ring and the ring of the head, therefore Shannon is Beato and the true head of the family, perhaps? I think Erika and Battler's perverted wedding is connected to Kinzou raping Kuwadorian Beatrice, and doesn't have that much to do with Battler in Prime, though it might refer to Beatrice's riddle tormenting Battler in Touya's mind. There were other allusions to Kinzou and Kuwadorian Beatrice in EP6, so I believe it isn't a far-fetched connection to make. Why don't you listen to yourself when you say you don't want to think about such a horrible solution? Why can't Kuwadorian Beatrice be the only one who had to suffer sexual abuse? Also, I wouldn't be so sure Battler being eaten by goats in EP2 is an indication of torture. Remember, in EP1 for example Jessica and George's death TIPS say that they were eaten by demons too. The goats eating Battler is as far as I know connected to the bomb destroying Rokkenjima at midnight. Notice that goats eat the island in EP8 too. I also think your adding an unnecessary layer in between when you're comparing Kuwadorian Beatrice's situation to Battler in EP6. As the truth about Kuwadorian Beatrice wasn't given until EP7, I would say that is the simple connection we were supposed to make with the EP6 information ourselves. To say that it relates to what happened to Battler in Prime might be unnecessary, as it could have been just a clue to the answer that was given in EP7. Of course it does connect to Prime as well, because we're talking about what really happened before the 1986 family conference. The part comparing Kinzou and Bice in the submarine base massacre to Battler and Beatrice in 1986 could be important, but where did you get the idea that Touya and Ikuko lived in separate mansions? I'm pretty sure they lived in the same house. I was a supporter of the theory that Ikuko is Yasu before, but nowadays I feel like it takes something away from the story if Sayo did not die in 1986. It also makes both Ikuko and Sayo sound worse people than they have to be. I love Sayo as the culprit, partly because I can relate to some of her problems myself. I can accept her creating a deadly gamble in desperation, but capturing and torturing Battler even after she lost her own bet? Even I couldn't forgive that person as easily as Battler did. Quote:
I'm becoming more and more confident about my idea of Virgilia as Ikuko's representative in the meta world. I even thought that maybe Sayo didn't even create her, but she was created by Ikuko while fitting the setting. She doesn't appear in Confession of the Golden Witch, but she is in Clair's story and Maria's diary, so I think Sayo did create her after all. It would have fit with Ryuukishi creating Virgilia for the new EP3 after he scrapped Land and Virgilius, and in a way would be similar to how Sayo 'modified the world', but maybe not then. Think about it. Virgilia first appears in the first forgery Ikuko and Touya write. Her purpose is the give extra advice to Battler, to be the guide that leads Dante to Beatrice. She gives Beatrice the idea of acting softer this time so Battler would be more willing to understand her. Only she, Ronove and Dlanor come visit Battler and Beatrice in the Golden Land when Beatrice is dying, Virgilia being present the most. She gives Battler crucial red truths about Beatrice's motive and she assures Battler that Natsuhi is not the culprit so he wouldn't give in to Erika's theory. She knows Featherine. She is the only one in the chapel with Battler when he lays his story in Beatrice's coffin. My theory is still that Ikuko reaches the truth with Legend, Turn and Confession. She inherits Beatrice's role and becomes an Endless Witch the same way Battler did in EP5, by understanding everything. She inherits her game board and pieces, including Virgilia. As Beatrice she does not go against her previously established character, but she uses Virgilia to make the game easier for Touya. I used to think that Ikuko was connected to Chick-Beatrice, but I assumed it was that Ikuko did not know the truth, and Touya taught it to her through the logic error. I lost confidence in this theory at some point, but now I think Chick-Beatrice does indeed represent Ikuko, paralleling the time before she reached the truth of Legend and Turn. The meta story of Chick-Beatrice in Dawn is the story of Ikuko. It's basically Beatrice's second revival, because Ikuko revived Beatrice after she died in 1986 by taking over her as the game master, though she hadn't really died in the meta before. Chick-Beatrice was brought by Virgilia to Featherine's archives to read the past stories. This was of course Ikuko reading Sayo's message bottles in her own house. Confession of the Golden Witch could be taken as the past equivalent of Dawn as the key to understanding Beatrice. Ikuko trying to intensively learn about the Golden Witch might have happened soon after she saw how hearing about the Rokkenjima incident affected Touya. Because she loved Touya, she wanted to solve the mystery and learn about the connection between Beatrice and Battler, "for Father's sake". Touya was stuck in a metaphorical closed room with his memories that could kill him, and Ikuko wanted to help him out of there. The meta story of Dawn was a replay of this past event, where Ikuko imagined herself as the chick of Beatrice once more, and tested if she could once again become the Endless Witch by using Touya's new game board instead of Confession as a key to all the past stories, now including Banquet, Alliance and End they wrote together as well. When Ikuko was able to do that, Touya had proven that he understood Beatrice, and Beatrice revived as her wish was fulfilled and faith in Battler restored. If Touya's Dawn included the logic error in some form, maybe it could be taken as Touya's gratitude towards Ikuko for saving him. After Battler and Beatrice are married in their happy ending, Touya and Ikuko are now free to love each other as well. If my theory is true, it brings the meta world extremely close to what happens in Rokkenjima Prime, which I take as a very good thing. But shouldn't Touya know the truth before writing the forgeries based on him saying he gave ideas and Ikuko wrote the stories? I don't want to think it's totally unimportant, but I think his role as the idea man might have been greater in the mystery novels they wrote together before starting the forgeries. Alternatively, could this theory work if you switched Ikuko and Touya's roles? Featherine did say she was looking at the stories through Battler, but I think it's more about observing Touya's thoughts than literally acting as his past self in the meta world. |
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2015-03-24, 13:44
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Link #35005 |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Next thing I found some info about
Ep 8 touya to ikuko, critizising her story : “I like that the ring was referred to early on … also I think you should say something about the ocean currents, it’s a bit unfair for the reader if you don’t. Ok, I looked it up, but the info is really difficult to get. First of all: Near Niijima (the island that truly exists as one of the izu-islands of japan, which is supposed to be the next island to Rokkenjima in the story) there is an island to the south called Hachijyou Island. I didn’t realize that... And I looked up the ocean currents from where Rokkenjima potentially lies and if the current could possibly lead the message bottles to hajijyou island. The current goes from west to east, but hajijyou island lies to the south. The current would never have taken the message bottles to hachijou island! So its not possible ikuko found the message bottles on the shore! She lied! More like, she already lied when she said she found touya there, cause he too cant have been carried off by the currents towards hachijou island! Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-24 at 16:27. |
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2015-03-24, 14:32
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But I wont argue that you cannot interpret it in a completely different way.Quote:
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Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-24 at 14:45. |
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2015-03-24, 16:54
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
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Sayo in CotGW: "All of these message bottles are made in a way that, if you follow all of the many rules, you will be able to unveil the culprit." I'm sure you know most of this, but the whole idea of a mystery is that we can solve it ourselves before the answers are given. The clues later on and the answers are a way to make the correct solution more apparent and to check our answer, but it doesn't mean we cannot reach the answers before reading them. We cannot be sure of our answer or all the details, but the possibility must exist. It is possible to solve Umineko in some form with just EP1, but it is difficult and the minute details of the answer will be up to imagination. We can make a good theory about what the tests in EP4 mean without further episodes, but we cannot confirm the answer until later. The wedding in EP6 is the same thing. By the time we read that wedding scene, we should have some theories already. If at that point you have a theory that Kuwadorian Beatrice was sexually abused, it would feel like you are on to the correct solution the wedding scene if you connect it with the other allusions to her and Kinzou's relationship. If you have a theory that Battler was sexually abused instead, you would also feel you're on the right path. When you read EP7, the answer about Kuwadorian Beatrice is given. If you had the first theory, you would think that "I was correct, that must be what the wedding scene hinted at". If you had the second theory, you would have multiple options. You could think that "this is what the wedding scene probably hinted at, I must have been wrong". Or you could think "I didn't expect that, but because of the wedding scene I believe Battler too was abused". What I'm getting at is that the hint's meaning might have been answered already. Of course, it is never a bad thing to take a hint multiple ways and I do not know the correct answer any better than you do. I've been talking about this for way too long, as it's not that much of a big deal. But are you sure you are not trying to answer a question the author never asked you to answer? Quote:
What do you mean by "considering it all a book"? About forgiving Erika, she didn't do all that in Prime. And no actual sexual abuse happened at the wedding in the meta world, though she did many other horrible things. |
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2015-03-24, 18:10
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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If we look at things from Battler's point of view, he was the one afraid that Shannon would make fun of him for the things he told her in the past (Ep 3 & 7). He believes he lost to George and therefore he has no right to complain and tries to be supportive even if he's jealous. Jessica also tells him that Shannon and George liked each other form when they were children so, same as Sayo, he might have thought she was the one who wasn't taking him seriously and making fun of him. Quote:
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In a way though it might be that BBattler is merely the opposite of Battler. Battler would support Shannon & George's relation, BBattler would want it to be destroyed and Shannon be returned to him. Quote:
A hint is also that Erika doesn't love Battler but she seems to see him as a way to be on the bullying side paralleling her previous relationship in which she felt used... as if Battler was a replacement for her boyfriend. I also thought there could be a parallelism in Battler's situation and how Sayo ended up wounded and losing her right to become heir (the right of being the heir is in Ep 7 represented by a ring). There's also a scene in which Battler has his ring finger bitten away, implying mutilation and the loss of the ring as well. If I've to try and connect the ring to George and Sayo instead I think that at best it could reflect her fear of losing herself by marrying to George, more than her fear of George. Never once Shannon seems to be scared of George as someone who could hurt her but she's afraid of him rejecting her, of the fact that if she were to tie herself to him she'll lose her chance to be with Battler and believes that, in order to be accepted by him, she would have to toss away some parts of herself. The ring becomes a time limit for taking decisions that will have consequences from which she can't escape and that will tie her to a certain fate. So in a way when Erika talks about the ring subjugating Battler and tying him like a leash, this can parallel Sayo's fear that if she were to accept the ring she'll lose herself. Also, Ep 2 & 6 present quite a negative view of sex which might be nothing else but a reflection to Sayo's fears. Her mother was raped, she seems to believe her grandmother could have been raped as well (in ep 3 Beatrice will tell the tale of how she met Kinzo and it's implied Kinzo forced himself on her while in ep 4 Beatrice described how Kinzo did horrible things to her... and what's more she says Battler will be allowed to do that to her as well if he'll pass the test) and her body is damaged. We don't know exactly how damaged it is but it had been speculated she could have troubles having a normal sex life. Quote:
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While I think that Ikuko can definitely be represented by Virgilia (but this let me wonder 'then who's Ronove?') I see her as a mere support while, unless I'm misunderstanding you, you seem to see her as much more in control. I might be wrong though. If there's a thing about Ikuko I've always hated is that there are no enough info about her and that I can't get a clear grasp about her. Quote:
As his memory started to return he might have subconsciously rejected her because she's not Sayo, believing his feelings were misguided... to finally reconcile with them and accept Ikuko as her own person and not as a replacement for Sayo. Quote:
So he wrote the forgeries knowing the truth and Battler slowly reaching the truth actually represent Tohya slowly recovering Battler's memories and feelings and coming to terms with Sayo's feelings as well. If he has no memories he doesn't know Battler's feelings for Sayo and, even though Sayo's motive is spelled out loud and clear he might still have troubles understanding it. To him she would be an unknown, unlucky servant girl that due to a childish promise that wasn't kept and her own circumstances, caused a massacre. He might have had a hard time emphatizing with her at first and only slowly grew to understand her perspective and the fact in the past he had harboured feelings for her as well. In this case the truth would be more an 'emotional understanding' that just a general understanding of how things worked. LOL, just a theory though. I'm still hoping for the manga to give us more info. |
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2015-03-25, 09:46
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Link #35009 |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Rosa and Maria and Sakutarou = Battler and Sayo and Beato
I found out Beatos motive now. You can see it in ep 4 with the scene when Maria as a black witch is taking revenge on Rosa. Rosa created Sakutarou <=> Battler “created” Beato, well, at least he is partly responsible for it - Featerine ep 6: “Beato was Battlers piece” The main person that created Sakutarou though was Maria <=> the main person that created Beato was Sayo Rosa is never there for Maria, Sakutarou is, he tells Maria to believe in Rosa - "she loves you, dont worry"- and to be happy, he supports her and is necessary for her <=> Episode 7: Beato supports Shannon/Sayo, she is telling her to believe in Battler - "he loves you, dont worry "-and to be happy, Beato is necessary for Sayo/Shannon to be happy Rosa destroys Sakutarou, she denies him, so Sakutarou “dies” in Marias world <=> Battler denies Beato, so Beato “dies” in Sayos world Of course, the main person that “kills” Sakutarou is Maria and only she can revive him <=> the main person who kills beato is Sayo and only she can revive her, “Who killed Beatrice?” A: Sayo (ep 7) Marias one-sided love for Rosa <=> Sayos one-sided love for Battler Just substitute “Battlers” name for “Rosas” name here, “Beato” for “Sakutarou” and “Sayo” for “Maria”. ep 4: Beato:“Remember your promise Rosa!” Maria to rosa: “Sakutarou was always there for me, but you weren’t! How dare you kill Sakutarou. He was my only friend.” Battler denies Beato and thereby tortures Sayo, Sayo is becoming a bad witch and that lives for the sake of revenge. please take a look at the scene in ep 4 when Maria is taking revenge on Rosa and kills her multiple times. I found a youtube video that starts exactly at the point with the Rosa-scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcyT...WzWQn&index=13 So concerning my theory about Battler being locked in a closed room.. Im just gonna quote the beginning of the scene: Rosa wakes up in a dark room… “Silent. Black. Cold. Painful. Rosa regained consciousness bit by bit.And the first thing she thought,was that it would have been better if she hadnt. After all, with her body this cold and hurting,…it became more painful the more her consciousness returned.It felt like she had been sleeping on ice-cold marble for a long time.[…]I wonder…where this is…[…]Without a doubt there was some source of light, but even if I looked up at the ceiling…or else the sky, there was only an expanse of blackness, and I couldn’t see a proper light.My body alone was slightly lit, whereas everthing else was sunk in darkness..thats what this world was like. It was almost as though Rosa alone had been abandoned in a forgotten world. As her mind grew clearer she started getting nervous about why she was all alone in a lonely place like this.” Now, if you substitute “Battler” for “Rosa” + Battler ep 6:” I remember waking up in a room I didn’t know. Incredibly lonely and sobbing.” After that Sakutarou (Beato) still tries to save “Rosa” from the room, but “Rosa” (Battler) denies her. And after having denied "Sakutarou" (Beato) and through that having killed him (her), “Maria” (Sayo) appears and takes her revenge for that. This is “Beatos” motive. Or better said: its not Beato that is taking revenge on him in Prime, but Sayo after she became a “black witch”. And that’s why Beato in the meta wants Battler to understand her. So he can make it out alive of the room. So they can stop the eternal torture, because Battler too is hurting Sayo by denying Beato. It was probably like this: Battler thought his family were the murderers at the end of prime, beato wanted to help him and carry the responsability herself "I wont let a human be the culprit! Just make me the culprit! Why wont anyone believe in me?" (ep 5 beato). Battler denied the witch and that made Sayo pretty angry. The rest we see in the Rosa scene. Meta and real-word overlap??? If you take a look at the scene, you notice how its emphasized that rosa lies on one side of the face. and that that part hurts her if she thinks about sakutarou. I dont know yet what this means, but it probably has something to do with memory-loss and someone being hit on the head before. also: wasnt touya in the manga shown only with a half of his face? and didnt they always talk about "half of the head being smashed in" in the games? I still have to solve this...Edit: but it could mean that: the meta is occuring simultaneously with the real world. battler sees the meta and at the same time, he sees reality. so hed be "half-dead" at that point in time...I dont want to say his head was smashed in - you wouldnt be alive anymore if that happened...but that it symbolized probably that someone hit him on the head. actually that makes A LOT of sense, because beatos comment about being afraid to open the cat-box and see if the cat is alive or dead would still fit, and it would be perfectly in line with the mystery-fantasy relation in beatos games - they also occur simultaneously, then the longer sayos little "game" goes on in the room, the more he goes into the meta, the more fantasy-creatures appear, the more the corrosion of the witch is spreading, the more he dies until he completely dies when he drowns in the meta...sayo is reading him her stories in reality and that would explain why he is still "living" the stories. And why in ep 1, in the tea-party, the narrator is beato "the stupid, arrogant battler didnt believe in the witch, the wise maria knew that a witch was the culprit" etc. and why kyrie says in ep 1 shes envious of battler, she too wants to be able to get out!! "Rosas" head hurts when she gets in contact with sakutarou (a child of fantasy) "this child was hurting her" because the meta is actually killing battler. beatos red truth: please kill me, if you dont, you'll die!". I guess Ill have to write a seperate post for this This I still want to write now though: Beato ep 4" Cant I win? Do I have to endlessly harass Battler? I dont want that![...] I cant die yet, please Battler, kill me. Only you can do it". Ok, Im still thinking about it, but its possible that Beato has two sources of her acting - her own will and her being controlled by Sayos story. And that would create the two contradicting goals she has: "Believe in the witch" (Sayos goal) and "I want battler to win and understand my heart!" (Beatos goal). That would explain why she is "faking" to win and always tries to give Battler hints. And this "do I have to..." actually sounds like there is someone making her do what she does...And I think she wants to be killed by him because she knows that if she wins and battler believes in her, he'll "die" by completely entering the meta. Im still thinking though...with this I could be wrong... Alice in Wonderland Oh also: Battler is already “dead” (edit:half-dead?) when he is in the meta. I always compared it to Alice in Wonderland, well in ep 4 they are randomly talking about clothes: this popped up- for Beato a good dress would be “Alice and the graveyard”. Guess it really is "alice in the land of the dead"... Length of the chain has a meaning The long chain Battler is talking about in ep 6 when he is in the locked room – when he says its quite long and it reaches far into the floor- probably doesn’t refer to the actual chain in prime, but to the fact that he can leave the “locked room” (meta-world) not completely but at least for some distance- like he does in his Dawn-ending. Hes still bound to the meta there, but he can at least get away from the island (and reach as far as Hachijou island ).Sayo didnt die in 1986, Beato did though Erika – shot with a gun right in the middle of her chest. Kanon – shot with a gun right in the middle of his chest. As I said – Erika represents another part of Sayo. Appearantly, personalities of Sayo can die after being shot. Beato was shot like that in prime Sayo doesn’t die though, as we can see in ep 2 when Sayo doesn’t care a bit about the hole in her chest. (the "Kanon" that is Sayo in ep 2 to kumasawa, shannon, gouda, genji: "what this? I dont care about this! See? It doesnt hurt at all!"). “Beato” was shot in prime, Sayo survives though. Heaven and hell-talk Virgilia to Beato: “You can take his hand and lead him to heaven, or you can embrace him and go to hell with him”. In Ep 4 beato embraces him, and the tips say he went to hell after that. In ep 6 when Beato arrives in the chapel, she says they are now in hell. Beato to Battler: “without my approval, you cant leave” “taking his hand” means: letting him go out of the room but thereby risking that he may leave her again “embracing him” means not letting him go and afterwards, its truly hell, for him and for her. I already explained what shes doing to him, and he keeps torturing Sayo by denying the witch.. This lasts for years (“eternal torture”) and I already said its especially bad after battler “died” in prime, so that’s why Beato calls the scene in the chapel where they are repeating what happened in prime “hell”. You can get out of purgatory, but you cant get out of hell. When battler cant solve the riddle for beatos heart anymore because he "died" (is in the locked room) he cant get out anymore and neither can Sayo be released from hell, cause he cant come to understand her. Ikuko IS Sayo At the end of ep 6, when Beato plays different roles and says she can become anything, it just shows that she really can become anything – Shannon, Kanon, Beato, Erika, Ikuko…a woman who doesn’t let anyone read her novels, the same as battler didn’t let anyone read his book. A woman who likes mystery-novels, who helps him cope with his memories. Like I said, Sayo saves "Battler" (already Touya at this point) from the island and becomes his ideal woman - Ikuko. So even though Ikuko lied to him, she appearantly is not a "bad" character. Last part I thought about: Erika differentiates between body, mind and soul I had the idea that it is: gameboard – soul (mystery), meta – mind (fantasy), body- prime (horror/drama) So maybe when in Our Confessions they said Ryukishi would reveal two stories, and he will never reveal the third one…I just hope he’ll show the “body”-part. Though Im not really doubting anything anymore about my theory… Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-25 at 17:23. |
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2015-03-25, 11:09
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Link #35010 | ||||||||
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Ok, I still think the ring-scene is just screaming "this-is-what-we-are-referring-to", but I wont say you cant be more abstract. Guess on this point we'll have to disagreeQuote:
Did you read my recent post about rosa? Maybe youll see what I mean...If I am allowed to explain a bit, because the umineko-fandom generally is reminding me a bit of it:P Im just writing it here, so that you get a better idea why Im so stuck on my theory, and that Im not just some kind of weirdo Im in a room, next to me is another room. I hear something that sounds like someone was thrown against the wall.I run over. What I find is: There is one guy with a black eye, the mark of a fist is still on his face, some blood is running from his eye over his face, he is lying next to the wall. Theres another guy who is perfectly fine, standing there, but has some blood on his fist. What happened? Probably this: the second guy hit the first guy, who was thrown against the wall by the impact. What the umineko-fandom is often doing (like rosatrice-fans for example-sorry, rosatrice fans), is the following: they say: "no, the first guy could have stumbled over a shoe that maybe lay around there and fell against the wall. By that he hurt his eye. Before that happened, they could have drawn something on their faces and now it looks like theres a mark of a fist on the face of the first guy . The second guy probably tried to help the first one up after falling, thats how he got blood on his hand." Of course, that is possible. But people often are "dehinting" the hints - meaning there are hints for something, but they just brush it aside and construct something else with something that was never mentioned, like the "shoe" that lies around in the room. But "every necessary clue must be present for the solution". Same for example with the locked room - when battler says he remembers a horrible family-gathering, people keep saying: "it could have been another family-gathering", even though we never heard of another one that was supposed to be horrible. Battler even says he never realized how bad the mood was on the family-gatherings, cause the adults would try to hide it from them. No hint was ever given for another "family gathering" that deserved the predicate "horrible". And no info was given that says what the room, battler talks about, is supposed to be about - other than the ones I already mentioned. So what are we supposed to do with this info we get about a locked room? it would be completely worthless if we dont use the hint, thats what I mean when I say "dehinting" the hint, because its no "hint" anymore -it leads nowhere. like the mark of the fist on his face - yes, they could have drawn something, but we never get any info that they did. The "hint" of a mark leads nowhere now. It could be a birthmark, it could be an imagination by me who entered the room, it could be a shadow reflected on his face...But wed have to get info about that or it wouldnt be solvable since every solution would be equally possible, But that cant be. We are supposed to be able to reconstruct what happened in prime, but with "dehinting" the hints we have 1000 and more theories that are all equally possible. That is not what "its meant to be solvable" can mean. And now, since everything fits, and even beatos motive for doing what she did is contained in the story (recent post), I cant think otherwise but that my theory is probably correct :S Umineko is quite brutal anyways, and there was never any taboo-topic, but even if this is a really disturbing solution, Ill stick to it. From a narratological point of view, I also cant help but think that its one of the best stories ever written. Battler - who resembles Kinzo so much - would be taking on the revenge of Beato, the grandchild of Beatrice. Beatrice was abused by Kinzo, and at the end of the story and with Battler being the way he is, they finally end this hatred between them. "Battler was able to grasp happiness quite easily,, something I couldnt do" (ep 4). I cant help but think that its written really well. Quote:
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Actually, we DO get the hint before the first thing I thought about when beato talked about her past in ep 3 was that there was a child from the first beatrice. and with the time the mansion was built it resulted that the second beatrice died when she was ~15 years old. At first I had a problem with connecting it to a third child -I thought the second beatrice was the only beatrice. but the ages didnt match.In ep 5 though when kinzo gave the child away because it was a boy and not a girl, ("who needs an empty vessel? I knew this would happen, Natsuhi"), I thought that there was a third child (Though I still had a problem with the boy-girl stuff back then). And with the second beatrice being 15 when she had died, I just didnt know who would make her pregnant at this age.... She already had the child by that time when she died, so she must have been 14!!! (or even younger) when she got pregnant. By that point in time I was sure she was abused. No adult in his right mind would sleep with a 14-year-old girl. And the way beatrice was, like a child, I couldnt imagine shed willingly be doing that. Also: we knew from beatos story ep 3 that the first beatrice killed herself. So we knew kinzo was kind of obsessed with the woman and didnt show normal love (not that that hadnt been emphasized enough already) Quote:
I mean the current-hint is exactly for that. Ryukishi has always done that stuff, we would have never been able to solve the epitaph if it werent for hints like that. The surname "hachijou"imo exists just for this hint to work. And what would the current-hint be for? Remember: "there are no unnecessary clues".Hmm, while I admit that it appeared to be on the mainland- I should take a look at the scene if there are clues- its really not surprising that Ange left for Niijima. Because no other boat in that area would go near Rokkenjima, except for this one guy that lives on Niijima. So if the meeting was scheduled on that day, its natural that Ange would go to Hachijou island only to leave for Niijima afterwards. Quote:
Yes, that didnt happen, but she sure planned it :S And Erika also locked him in the creepy room for years. If he can easily forgive her for that than I suppose he can forgive even more. Also: Battler forgives everything anyways XD He forgave Beato after ep 2 too and after ep 3. She killed him several times at the beginning of ep 3 too with the seven stakes and he still forgave her. Well since I see that as his main and most important character trait, and THE central point of the story - him being able to stop the cycle of hatred with this thinking - I dont have a problem with him forgiving absolutely everything. Especially if he considers everything to be his fault in the first place..
Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-25 at 14:26. |
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2015-03-25, 17:56
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Link #35011 | ||||||||||||||||
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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About Ronove, maybe he is somehow linked to a head butler the Hachijous have or he's a combination of all the servants in their house. This would be mixed with the Ronove character Sayo had already created. While the servants aren't in control of the writing or anything, Ronove might be there to make it easier to translate meta scenes to the real world. Perhaps they actually talk to the servants about their writings? Maybe the reason it's hard to grasp Ikuko's character with the info we have been given is because we're supposed to do what I'm doing with her now: explaining Ikuko with the characters we've already met, so in a way she's been part of the cast all along. Quote:
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Maybe Battler's identity crisis where he almost disappeared in EP4 could be taken as the point where Touya and Battler's narratives truly separated? This could also be the point where Touya got hurt so bad he ended up in a wheelchair. Did their paths join again at EP6? What if Lambda's loveless game was a result of Touya joining the writing on the witch's side? Maybe Lambda and Bern conspiring together could be taken as Touya and Ikuko conspiring together to frame Natsuhi, perhaps to end the speculation about Rokkenjima with a false truth. Was Ikuko still responsible for the extra hints guiding Battler in the meta world? Is Ikuko Lambda, or is she Bern, Featherine's miko? Do they even have specific roles any more? Maybe it comes to the question which one wanted to write Battler more cool and competent? After Touya reached the truth with EP4, the Battler who still struggled with the solution might represent Touya's thoughts about if he should have any responsibility to his former self. Even Will didn't think very highly of Battler. But when Battler too learned the truth, a sense of duty towards Beatrice and the family of his former identity arose in Touya, and he rewrote the ending to present an equal theory, so neither Natsuhi or Battler could be made to shoulder the crime yet. Then he wrote Dawn to create a better ending for Beatrice. Hoho, I think we're getting close. Quote:
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I think Umineko is very well written too, or I wouldn't still be here making theories. It's my favorite story. Quote:
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2015-03-25, 21:17
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Link #35012 | ||||||||||||||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Considering the truth behind this scene as shown in Ep 7 and in the interview is that Sayo asked George something and he made a sign of denial/refusal this can match with her feeling rejected due to her body. Of course as we actually don't know what it was said if she pushed forward a theory or she flat out told him the truth and asked him if he could still accept her but I'll say her fear is more for his refusal than for him being violent or abusive or closing her up somewhere. Quote:
In fact the most she knows is that Kinzo took advantage of her mother. While I don't condone what Kinzo did to his own daughter and I think it was totally horrible I can't help but think he didn't do the things Sayo assumed he did with Beatrice. To her Kinzo didn't just rape the Beatrices he was controlling them, keeping them tied, humiliating them, beating them quite harshly. Quote:
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Kinzo is a beast, his 'love' for Beatrice that torments him for years is nothing else but longing for her flesh. There's no bond here nor acceptance. And what's scariest is that Beatrice here is depicted as willing to accept Kinzo's violence and abuse. We know that Sayo would have been willing to do everything to be together with someone who'll love her and Beatrice being okay with being abused can be a reference to this. However here we've again males being represented as guys who lust after a body and Sayo's body isn't, in her own opinion, a body you can lust after. So, as twisted as this is, I fear she was more scared of the fact that her body would be labelled as unsatisfying and lead her to be rejected than of being physically abused, at least right then by either George or Battler. But well, considering the state in which she was, it might make sense. Quote:
LOL, I've been wondering if actually Ronove is Tohya who knows the solution but rejects being Battler so it's as if he's working at the problem from two points of view at the same time. However there's no hint that Tohya might use Ronove as a vessel to give hints to his past self so I guess this theory is probably wrong. Quote:
Also, as there's really little about her, we can tie her to way too many characters we've already met with the risk we end up tying her to the wrong characters. It's entirely possible though that, like in the case with Battler's letter, we weren't required to find a single answer but to have fun speculating, which is why we aren't given an answer. Quote:
So I view Tohya as knowing the truth but feeling unconnected to it and Battler, who's represented as the guy who feels a lot, representing that part of himself that slowly makes the transition that helps him to have an emotional connection with the people from his past, even if probably is pretty vague. For example in the beginning Tohya didn't want to meet Ange but then we see in Ep 8 that it's him who searches for this meeting and Ep 4 might depict Tohya coming to term with the notion Ange isn't just Battler's sister but that he still arbour some sort of care toward her, even if he's not Battler anymore. In Ep 4 we've Battler believing Ange is a stranger, Gretel, and, when traumatized by the revelation about his mother, rejecting her. It's even mentioned how the bond with his family was weakened. However when he'll be made aware of the things Ange went thought he'll 'remember her' and acknowledge her as his sister. However we'll see he'll still won't be able to go back to her even if he claims he plans to do it. Still in Ep 8 we'll see him thinking it'll be okay if he'll go to Ange and give Ange some time in the Golden Land before sending her on her own way. And in Ep 8 Tohya goes to meet Ange, chats with her and tells her Battler is death, same as Battler did in the game. Quote:
As for Will he understood the truth with 4 games, but according to Sayo just one could have been enough. But if we go back to working through connecting Tohya emotionally, Battler too understood in Ep 4 that he wronged Beatrice over something that was really important for her. Tohya might have known who actually was the culprit rationally but until Battler won't make the connection between Beatrice and Sayo in Ep 5, even if Tohya already understood he hurt her in Ep 4, to him she'll still be a stranger, someone with whom he has no connection, so, same as Ange who was 'Gretel', Sayo is 'Beatrice'. We see that already around the end of Ep 4 Battler's starting to feel something for her but it's only in Ep 5 he truly wants to understand her, which can parallel Tohya truly wanting to remember her. When Battler figures out who's Beatrice and that's too late he's heartbroken... and this can mirror Tohya's feelings as he finally remembers Sayo and emotionally connects with her. It's just a theory based on a real life experience though. I've no idea how much Ryukishi researched about this sort of things so I might be completely off track. Quote:
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And interesting enough Black Battler doesn't mention him being part of End but says he showed up in Land, Trinity and Bern's game (geez, Ryukishi, what about letting us read them?). And all this to say... I want to ponder on Ep 5 more. Sorry, I'm not being very helpful, I know. Quote:
But yes, we're probably getting close. |
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2015-03-26, 03:43
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Link #35013 | ||||||
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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While I didn't think about it that deeply before, Sayo allowing herself to be abused just to be loved in some way is sadly a very possible result of her mindset. Quote:
Both Ronove and Virgilia were added into the story to give extra clues. So at first they are both 'controlled' by Ikuko, then Touya starts using them himself later. I rather like the idea that Ronove and Virgilia could be Touya and Ikuko talking to Battler in EP5. Virgilia tries to motivate Battler to find Beatrice's true motives and Ronove tells Battler how their new game is loveless and Battler should do something about it, or else they are going to kill Beatrice unhonorably. Quote:
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In EP5 wanting to be understood by Battler does not factor into the plan at all, nor does the epitaph, because Battler is an accomplice and the letter of challenge did not appear. This is why piece Beatrice doesn't know what's happening, and the murders do not stop when the epitaph is solved. The culprit of EP5 boils down to a Sayo who never invented rule Z: "Please, somebody stop me", which is the last rule she invented that she wouldn't have done without love. This actually fits with Lambda being the game master as well, because rule Z is what stops Sayo from "certainly" winning, so she removed it. Black Battler might not have been part of End because he isn't really the culprit in that one, it's just a theory. But does this mean he would have been in Land? I thought Beatrice would never have Battler as the culprit. Last edited by Bluemail; 2015-03-26 at 09:59. |
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2015-03-26, 13:45
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Link #35014 | |||
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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Miscellaneous: Has anybody defeated B.Battler in Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS and with which characters? I used Battler and Beatrice. |
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2015-03-26, 19:26
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Link #35015 | ||||||||||||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Interesting point to ponder.
It's very likely that in Prime Eva and Beatrice met again. If the Teaparty matches, for the parts regarding Eva, her diary, Eva never had the chance to get in possession of Kinzo's ring prior to Kyrie's death. Beatrice is never described as handing it to someone nor Eva is described as getting it from her or retrieving it. In the manga when the adults start arguing among them Beatrice is still wearing the ring, a sign she hadn't handed it to anyone (chap 41). When Eva wakes up Beatrice's body isn't there anymore (chap 43) so it's not like she could get the ring before going hunting for Kyrie and Rudolf. Kyrie has no interest in the ring, it's unlikely she took it after shooting at Beatrice (if she shoot her as we've no witnesses for that) and anyway it's never said/showed that Eva retieved it from Kyrie. But when the police will find Eva, Eva will have the ring. So it's likely Beatrice didn't die right then and then she and Eva met again and in that circumstance Eva got the ring. And since in Ep 3 MetaBattler witnessed Eva getting the ring it's possible he was there as well. Quote:
No one apart from Kinzo knows what truly happened on the military base. Sayo believed Kinzo was the one responsible for the incident and therefore this is likely true in her gameboards (and likely Bern's red refers to them) but it's highly unlikely Kinzo spreaded around a version that was different from the one we heard in Ep 7 and even Bern's red truth in itself doesn't tell us much. Even if we go and assume that the fact that Kinzo suggested stealing the Italian gold is true in Prime this doesn't prove he massacred everyone. Actually he might have reconsidered his idea or he might have been overheard by someone else who put it in act. Though of course Sayo might have guessed right and Kinzo was the mastermind behind the whole incident. It really depends if one wants to assume the Kinzo of back then was like Sayo (planned an incident, never managed to put her plan in act) or Kyrie (saw her chance and caught it) or Eva (did something wrong in a spur of the moment but didn't mean for eveything to escalate like that). On the gameboards the truth is that Kinzo is the evil mastermind but it can merely be just Sayo's fear on Prime and not be true at all. Then Beatrice. Kinzo told Nanjo Beatrice died after giving birth to her daughter. Nanjo seemed to believe Kinzo and Beatrice weren't troublesome people after overhearing one of their conversations in English but admitted he knew little of English. He was merely told about how Kinzo and Beatrice spent their years together but never witnessed them. We've no red confirming or denying this. Let's assume Kinzo is unrelieable because he actually kidnapped Beatrice against her will and such. Nanjo however seems to testify something positive about Kinzo's relationship with Beatrice, or at least he didn't seem to think he had kidnapped an unwilling woman. How reliable is Nanjo? Actually not much as since his knowledge with English is not the best he might have misunderstood the situation and anyway he's biased toward Kinzo. But even if Nanjo were reporting the truth it's again pretty meaningless. Beatrice can have been willing to go with Kinzo at first, then during the years she lived with him as his lover grew to feel trapped and despited him. For all we know Beatrice might have tried taking her own life while she was pregnant and the doctor managed to save the baby but not the mother. Or Kinzo's wife might have found out and attempted to her life (she suspected he had as a lover a blond woman) but while Beatrice died the baby survived. It could also be Beatrice fell into depression and merely stopped eating. This weakened her so when the baby had birth she just didn't manage to survive to it. Or Beatrice was happy and in love with Kinzo and merely died of childbirth. We'll never know. I'm confident that Beatrice II was unwilling. Kinzo took advantage of her, of her devotion for him and her ignorance. The problem here wasn't just that he committed incest or that she was young, it was also she was unwilling. Even if Kinzo says his black magic was starting to work, which might mean he was starting to seduce her, ultimately I think that the fact she tried to leave meant only that, before meeting Rosa, she had resigned to her fate (probably the people around her tried to feed her with things about her situation being "right"), not that she was starting to like it. The red confirms Beatrice was contrary but even without it we've too many testimoniances hinting at how Sayo wasn't making up things in her mind in this case. Last but not least we've Natsuhi's case. Nanjo openly blames Natsuhi for Sayo's fall. He wasn't there to witness what had happened though and it could be merely his speculation. In fact only Natsuhi witnessed what had happened and she didn't speak. It seems she confessed only to the grave of the husband of the servant but likely she made sure not to be overheard. Of course it's possible she was all the same but it feels weird she would go through the risk. Of course as it seems the servant didn't immediately die, it's possible she managed to tell Genji, who should have been among the ones who found her, that Natsuhi pushed her and Genji tattled it out to Nanjo. Or actually she was carried not to a hospital but to Nanjo and she told Nanjo. There's no mention of this though so it can be that Nanjo specualted this and this became truth on Sayo's gameboard because on Sayo's gameboard is sure Natsuhi pushed the servant off the cliff. LOL, all this to say that... in truth is really hard to know if the setting Sayo created is true or it's just her own speculation and in Prime things went differently. But well, I think in this case the truth of Prime isn't very important. Quote:
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So yes, basically Confession handed us the third story. Quote:
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It's Natsuhi that exploits the most the idea that Beatrice is behind this or that... and the only use the culprit did on fantasy is in how he hid the corpses but interesting enough he does it through Gaap, not Beatrice. Actually since the true culprit worked to pin the blame on Natsuhi, by doing so he caused Beatrice's existence to be denied when in the previous gameboards the culprit wanted for Beatrice's existence to be aknowledged. This forgery seems one in which one has successfully pinned down the how and who but not the why. The motive that's at the base of the culprit's actions is completely wrong. But well, if you think that Beatrice's riddle was target made for Battler it makes sense that someone else might have managed to solve the how and why but has failed to misunderstand Beatrice's heart. And, after all, in this game we've Erika who cares really little about the why and this can match with the character of the author of the forgery. On the opposite side we've Battler. When Battler reached the truth he apparently reached it through the motive. In the manga is said that he understood everything when he remembered his promise with Sayo. We know he was puzzling about his sin of 6 years ago and previously Beato implied he broke a promise so it's possible that he reached the truth not by solving the how as first thing but by solving the why. Once he knew Sayo had a motive for all that he might have tried solving the games with her as culprit and realized everything fit. LOL, oh, I so love Ep 5, is one of my fave if not my fave and the manga made it even better. Still, I can't help but wonder and theorize about it a lot. :P Quote:
LOL, if I don't remember wrong in Bern's letter Bern couldn't guess rule Z at all but Lambda knew it and even tossed a hint about it to Bern. Ironically, even if that rule should stop Sayo from winning with certain according to Lambda has a lethally bad affinity to Bern. So I'm not sure removing it works as advantage to Lambda. ... and to be honest even though Erika's solution wasn't right Lambda didn't crush it but lost on purpose. So Lambda wasn't really trying to win. Anyway Beatrice is after all the embodiement of the rules. If the last rule isn't present it's as if there's either something missing in Beatrice or she's not present or something. And in a way there is since her Meta version isn't being the GM and in a way it's not even present and her Piece version is in a completely different role. Quote:
I was re-reading the dialogues of Black Battler in Ougon in the BBattler/Shannon storyline and you can of course assume that is a storyline that has him and Sayo as culprit together but also that he's a fantasy behind which Sayo hides. He keeps on telling her she doesn't have to talk, that she has to follow him, to do as he does. In a way it could be like when Sakutarou tried to protect Maria from Rosa claiming he was the one to blame... or when we were told that if Ange had had the determination to kill she could have hidden her crime by claiming it was the seven stakes who did it. Or even how Beatrice takes responsibility in Ep 5 for killing the baby. Of course it's speculation, in Ougon it's just battles, there's no tricks and such as far as I know but it's possible to assume it's a forgery in which the fantasy scenes hint at a Battler culprit theory under which the true culprit, Sayo, hides and then Sayo commits suicide and PieceBattler, being the last to survive and possibly feeling circumstances pin him as responsible even if he knows he's not responsible, goes mad and blame himself thinking that he's the culprit even if he actually hadn't killed anyone. And in a way End works the same, with Battler taking the blame even though he's not the culprit. Of course in forgeries not written by Sayo Black Battler and Battler can be one and the same and therefore Battler can be the culprit, same as there are forgeries around where Eva is the culprit, not just an accomplice. So Tohya and Sayo can use BBattler even when the real culprit isn't Battler, but others can also use him to create forgeries with Battler as culprit. Though maybe I'm just speculating. And anyway I really, really, really want to read Land and Trinity. :P Quote:
 But well Forgery n° XXX seems to be a forgery written by someone who's not Tohya while the ending in Ougon seems to imply Beatrice wrote it... placing it among the tales Sayo wrote and that went lost... Oh well, who knows...? Quote:
And maybe Sayo's life or better Sayo's feelings were the third story that one should reach by reading Our Confession. Quote:
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In a way this would make BBattler also the personification of how Battler is responsible of the tragedy even if he has killed no one (LOL, and now it came on my mind how in Ep 4 manga version when Beato talked of his sin they used a cover in which his expression looks like BBattler...). But this might be just me. |
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2015-03-27, 03:40
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Link #35016 | |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
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Regardless, the way Ikuko addresses Battler and EVA-Beatrice in the end as if they were both the guardians of the catbox... it really feels as if they had actually agreed to something at some point, it wouldn't be weird for me that they could regain contact years later. She could have learned that Battler survived or not, maybe Ikuko's possesion of the diary (and the key, this is important since it's the reason nobody could open it) was arranged by them... or she just bought enough contacts. I don't see too much of a difference in motivations if she hid Tohya to Ange, a lot of time would pass until Tohya remembered things and Eva's relationship with Ange would already be damaged. Even with good intentions she still would consider the issue that this person wasn't really Ange's brother anymore. ----Ahhh the tension, even if the next chapter left the October 6th just as it is, nothing would impede Tohya to be more specific when telling what happened before escaping. It does intrigues me if Ange will ask "why did you write the forgeries", but that's not the main thing popping in my mind when the manga's premises is more detailed answers. Last edited by Lombardest; 2015-03-27 at 04:15. |
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2015-03-27, 09:07
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Link #35017 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
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This part has been itching me since it came up...and I couldn't log in on my phone.
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(1) It is written 八丈島 (Island of the Woven Silk) while the name is written 八城 (Eight Castles). (2) The distance between Niijima and Hachijôjima is almost three times the distance between Niijima and the mainland at the Izu-peninsula. (3) There is no (and apparently never was) any ferry between Niijima and Hachijôjima. Ange would have to catch the ferry all the way back from Hachijôjima to Tokyo and then get a ferry back to Niijima. That would cost her a good 2 days, since travel between Tokyo and Hachijôjima takes about 11 hours by boat. Ange said that she wanted to meet with Hachijô the day before leaving to Niijima, but since nobody answered her request, she went on instead. That would imply that it is at least partially on her way and not something that has to be scheduled into the trip. Quote:
Now I have to imagine the three of them meeting in the gold room and creating the whole catbox plan. |
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2015-03-27, 10:26
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Link #35018 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Okay, heres still some other stuff I found out – following the Rosa,Maria,Sakutarou=Battler, Sayo, Beato relationship
First of all, in the Rosa-scene in ep 4, Rosa sees Sakutarou as a “child who has lost his parents” –Beato too has two parents – Battler and Sayo, that’s why she in ep 6 calls Sayo “Mother” and Battler “Father”. Now the relationship between Sayo and Beato is kind of complicated. Because as we see in ep 4 – Beato is bothSayo and Beato at the same time somehow – but that she embodies two different people we can see on the balcony-scene in ep 4, when Sayo steps in for Beato. Interesting in the Rosa-scene is the part where Rosa gets tortured to death several times by black-witch-Maria. It says something like “Beato didn’t want that, she asked after each time Rosa died – "is it enough now, Maria?”. Beato appearantly does NOT want to happen whats happening between Sayo and Battler. That’s why “Sakutarou” wanted “Rosa” to escape -because it would be bad for both “Maria” and “Rosa” to meet. But Beato too is a piece and cant go against what her master=Sayo wants. If “Maria” (Sayo) says she still hasn’t had enough, Beato must continue to torture. That’s why Beato asks at the end of ep 4: “Do I have to continue to harass Battler eternally? I don’t want that!” Beato is giving little hints here and there, she actually wants Battler to make it out and end their mutual torture between him and Sayo/herself, to which Lambda remarks:”Do you even want to win?” and Bern (?) says ep1 or 2 I think : “Shes doing unnecessary moves, once she is at the point where she could win, shes playing around and never makes the finishing move”. Beato has to follow Sayos wished (or the part of Sayo that wants Beato to be that way), but she still has her own goal. That’s why she let Dlanor, Ange, and even Lambda and Bern into the world, so they could help her end it. And that’s why Battler is apologizing at the end of ep 5 – because even though Beato was cruel, and she in fact did kill people off countless times (if “only” on the game-board- imo those are souls so its not really "only"), Battler realized in what kind of situation Beato was in and what her goal truly was. Now what is really worrying me is this statement: “Beato can never win”, and the red “the story wont have a happy ending” –I wonder if somewhere along the line, we no longer see anything of reality and only fantasy. That would also fit with the red truth that everyone dies that I still don’t really get. But: maybe this can be interpreted in a different way, so Im leaving it open for the moment. Meta= fantasy intepretation of reality Like I said earlier, Battler is “half dead” from the moment on where we see the meta. Hes wounded on the head, and since I have not found any hint where it says Sayo knocked him out, I think it happened the way it was presented in the Rosa-scene: when Sayo tossed him in the room, he landed on his head and from that point on he mixes up fantasy and reality, in a similar way Sayo does. So everything we see as meta is an interpretation of what Battler sees and experiences in reality. And in this world, Beato is stepping in for Sayo in reality - she more or less has to do in the meta what Sayo is doing in real-life. But its not that easy. Because I really do believe the meta is at the same time a world that exists at the border to the afterlife -that’s why Battler and Beato meet the souls of all the dead there. When Battler starts to see the fantasy-interpretation of the events, he is still able to realize what happens in reality, but his mind is primarily in the meta. And the more he starts to believe in the witch, like I said, the more the corrosion of the witch spreads and the more fantasy-creatures enter the world. What happens in ep 6 is hinting at this- Battler in a “locked room” (meta) but hes still barely able to realize whats happening around him. That’s even what the narrator states. Also notice how "Rosa" in ep 4 notices how this world feels unreal to her, but once she falls down, the pain is the pain of reality. Hint at the Sayo-Battler story in prime. Maybe – Im not sure of that yet - when “Rosa” in the Rosa-scene in ep 4 realized that “Sakutarou” is hurting her, and “Sakutarou” is surprised about this fact, it could also be because of that: because the world where “Sakutarou” wants “Rosa” to escape to, is not really a world "Rosa" should escape to, but it is leading her to her death. Meaning: the more you enter the meta, the closer you get to your death. That would explain the hedgehog-dilemma they are talking about in ep 6 – the closer Beato gets to Battler the more she hurts him (I know it also refers to the emotional part, but I can see it referring to this as well). But that would mean that “Sakutarou” really is trying to lead “Rosa” towards the meta. And here it get complicated. Whoever takes a look at the scene notices, that “Rosa” is between reality and meta there. She runs but there is no wind, and she doesn’t feel like she is walking at all, but once she falls she feels the pain of reality – she exists in between those two worlds. “, as though we are in nightmare, that kind of unreal feeling”. But I don’t know if “Sakutarou” wants to escape TO the meta, or if he wants her to escape FROM the meta. TO: Did Beato create the world for Battler to be able to cope with it and to leave the room in the end & to prevent the torture between the both of them & and is she surpised that she hurts him because she doesn’t realize at the beginning that shes hurting him at the same time? And does the “kill me please, or else you’ll die”-red-truth refer to that? FROM:Or does she want him to escape FROM the meta, because the meta is also controlled in a way by Sayos wishes and the meta is not much better anyways? Third option:"Sakutarous" attempt to let “Rosa” escape actually happened in real life. That would have a correspondent event in the escape from the dungeon in ep 4. I know Battler cant get out by himself, but if Sayo was Beato at that moment it could work. But I kind of find this scenario doubtful. The only reason I kind of still mention it is this: I don’t know WHEN exactly the meta that we see starts. Battler still has memories of the family-conference in prime and he has seen the locked room. Later on though, he doesn’t remember having seen all that, and he regains consciousness in the tea-room in ep 1. At that point he thinks he can still get his family back and doesn’t know of the situation hes in. Also he says – he can do something about normal locks but not about chain-locks. So that sounds like he tried to do something about a normal lock first, succeeded until something happened and then the normal lock was replaced by a chain-lock in the room-or the chains we actually see in the manga, something like that. Right now, I tend towards the second option,but I still have to look for more clues. If I can get the opinion of someone who doesnt think Im going crazy here Id be really glad Where I was probably wrong though is when in ep 3 Battler says: "I cant think anymore, my head hurts” – that doesn’t refer to a hangover but to him really having hurt his head. And that’s why Touya is complaining about something similar later on. Its not because Touya had an accident with the boat- that never happened. That only happens in the fantasy-world that battler wrote to paint over reality. struggling = hurting onself One thing I realized as well – in ep 4 the fight between Jessica & Ronove and George & Gaap is actually emphasizing one point very clearly- that the more you attack, the more you hurt yourself . First - when Jessica attacks his shield, she gets hurt herself, when George jumps at Gaap his force is used against him, later on in Georges fight with the goat, it’s emphasized yet again. And finally at the end, when George and Jessica use their final strike, their attack is used against themselves too. I don’t know what Beato wanted to show with this, that Battler shouldn’t attack anymore-that he should just accept the witch? But in ep 2, when he simply accepted the witch, this didn’t seem like a happy ending…But its true, that the more he denies the witch, the more he hurts Sayo and the more she hurts him. So maybe that’s what she wanted to say with these duels. “Nessuno puo emendarsi dal peccato che scorre nelle vene”(~noone can escape the sins that is flowing in their venes)- The lyrics from Akiko Shikatas song fit so well Last time I mentioned the parallels between Battler & Sayo and Kinzo& Beatrice. There are some minor things – like Battler was more or less “killed” and didn’t kill himself. But the parallels are intended since one big theme is the relationship and the inheritance from parents to child – -like Battlers habit with woman that he got from Rudolf and his chess-board thinking from Kyrie & his fear of vehicles that he got from Asumu (with this thinking, he had this fear before coming to the island) -like Jessicas “boxing” that she got from Krauss -like Georges “kicks” that he got from Eva And since Battler and Kinzo are so similar and Sayo calls herself Beatrice the whole time, it only makes sense that the two settle their issues from the past Battler-> Sayo Also Battler is becoming more and more similar to Sayo as the story goes on. First he can see the fantasy-world, cause he hurt his head the same way Sayo hurt her head when she was still a baby, then we have the issue with the marriage and the ring which has kind of a similar result to Sayos accident and finally he has this multiple-personality issue too, that Sayo had (Im generalizing here –I know the situation still is different between the two and that Sayos multiple personality disorder is kind of complicated to describe.) What happened in ep 6 with the ring btw is already hinted at before – its hidden in the kind of weapons Battler takes with him to be able to go against the witch and the commentary that Sayo makes Jessica read on the phone in ep 4, shortly before she shoots her in the head. Jessica: “you wont be able to do anything against them with your hat-stand spear that you’re so proud of.” Since he doesn’t have anything to do with woman yet, this commentary obviously shows that Sayo sees it as something offending to her, which is no surprise.... Like I said – Ryukishi appearantly knows no taboos – as we see with Kanons”sword” and Shannons “vertical axis”. (I feel like a pervert talking about all this XD) So even though the events in prime are kinda disturbing, I still have to say that its just really well written :S Featherine/Ikuko overlap with Sayo? Im pretty sure that Sayo=Ikuko now, but for the next part I still have to find more clues - I think Sayo is becoming Ikuko BECAUSE of featherine. Like she writes herself into the story and in that way Sayo and Featherine Ikuko-piece overlap. But that was only a ad-hoc-idea that I got from the lyrics "the pieces overlap when the seagulls cry", so that might turn out to be complete bull*** XD. EDIT Beato being a victim of the circumstances is also hinted at in ep 4 - where beato tests battler on the balcony. battler notices that the rain is falling on him, but that beato is not protecting herself even though she could and just lets the rain hit her equally when Rosa runs away in the scene in ep 4 and she feels like she isnt running at all-that too stands for the fact that in the meta you move around like you want but in real life you're just in the locked room and dont move an inch, thats why she doesnt feel any wind when she runs I also want to mention that I was wrong with what Lambda and Bern represent - its mentioned in ep 4 tea party after all...so no need to interpret it any further Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-28 at 09:48. |
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2015-03-27, 11:13
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Link #35019 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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1. we see that the Romaji-spellings are pretty important in the story. we shouldnt focus too much on only the Kanji-spellings. We already had that before -the Kanji-spelling is not enough, spell it in Romaji and you get the solution. 2. Yes, I saw the distance on the map. But I dont get the problem. 3.The real-life-ferry doesnt really matter, does it? Ange can just ask someone to go over there, the way she did when she asked for someone to get her over to Rokkenjima. Also: didnt Ange go to sleep before the went to Rokkenjima from Niijima? I dont see any problem at all with the distance, or was it ever stated: "we went everywhere on one day?" Also: The niijima-excursion we saw in ep 4 didnt occur in the same world as the hachijou-visit. I still gotta take a look at the scenes again, but I will never ever believe that this is a coincidence! Not in this story where almost everything is planned through.
Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-28 at 05:32. |
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2015-03-27, 12:38
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Link #35020 | ||||||||||
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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So maybe I used the wrong formulation when I said "he killed her". He denied her, and in this situation that was enough for Sayo I think... "Battler torturing Beato is a motive for Sayo to torture Battler in revenge so Battler could better torture Beato? It doesn't make sense." This even I dont get XD It sure wasnt what I intended to say The way I read it now is that denying Beato was just the straw to break the camel's back. The main issue I think is Sayos one-sided love, since this is one of the main topics in the story. But she probably still would not have done what she did if Battler hadnt denied Beato. This I take from the Rosa-scene in ep 4. Maria believed and believed but in the end, she couldnt take it...Quote:
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I want to discuss this stuff, and I also want to see where I could be wrong and hear other peoples opinion, but I wont give up on my theory so easily I understand though that you dont want Sayo to be that way :S But if she is like Maria in the ep4 Rosa-scene, always believing and always hoping for the other person to love her back, and the other person hurting her so much, I dont know...umineko could also be called "Umineko no naku koro ni - The story of twisted love" after all...Ep 6 made it pretty clear that love isnt necessarily something beautiful...And that Sayo had to go through hell...Oh yes, me too, Ive been proven wrong too! Lets see if I get to the point where I start contradicting myself Quote:
Exactly!!! So glad that finally theres someone who sees it the same way! Thats exactly what I addressed the very first time when I presented this theory - not in a discussion with you - though nobody seemed to understand what I meant. I said: there are tons of red herrings or MISleading hints, but those MISleading hints all in the end lead to something. And with something I mean: something that is relevant to the story and is "explained" (directly or indirectly) to us later on . For example: when Rudolf said to Battler ep 5: "Ill probably be killed tonight once I tell you about your birth", we would all think: "ahaaa! battlers birth has something to do with the killings happening!" well, that wasnt the case. it was a MISleading hint. BUT: the hint nonetheless leads to something, and that is that he is the child of kyrie. Same with the red truth "you are not Asumus son", and we all thought: "imposter? son of beatrice?" the hint was MISleading, but it was still "leading" if you get what I mean. The memories in the closed room though, they wouldnt even be "leading" anymore, because we just have to invent a random scene for which battler would use the word "horrible", or as you noticed "horrible memories". there is no unnecessary information. There are misleading hints, but there are no hints that lead nowhere... Actually, thanks for checking the scene. I have to admit - I remembered it a bit wrong. But now it fits even better XD because whats happening after the family-gathering is probably far worse. The way I see it is this: there must be a scene we somehow know of to which battler is referring. and the memories of this scene must deserve to be called "horrible". I cant think of something else. You completely understood what I meant with de-hinting Im really glad! I already wondered if I dont express myself well, because so many people never got what I wanted to say. So yes, I think to say "it refers to something we dont have any more hints about, to something random, not important" is a kind of de-hinting. It would be a different matter though if you have an idea what Battler would be referring to? Like you said:"They too need to connect with something, but perhaps not in a manner one would expect." Thats true. But what would this something be then? its gotta be a room, and its gotta leave the impression of having been "horrible and harsh" and its got to include loneliness (where I say for example->Rosa-scene: "she felt like she was abandoned and left all alone in this world". And if he just lost all of his family-members, this feeling is not that wrong.) " Waking up sobbing sure sounds more like a young child than an 18-year-old, even if Battler is a crybaby." Exactly, he is a crybaby. Well, in his defense, if you just saw your whole family having been killed by probably your own parents, I think crying would be a normal reaction... I know this sounds like a young child, I thought so too in the beginning. but its told from the perspective of a ~30? year old person then (dont know how many years he stayed in the locked room). But again: wed have to have hints where someone would lock child-battler in a room and make this a horrible and harsh experience...and that would still leave the comment about him and chain-locks not going well together and him being fine with normal locks (more or less what he says)Quote:
The red-truth: yes, in my recent post (that I had to write offline again thats why my answer to your post comes after that) I tried to explain a bit better what beatos situation is. She is like "sakutarou" and someone who has to do the will of her master as a piece. So her goal is actually to get battler out of there and to stop the torture between him and sayo (and herself, of course). She "fakes" wanting to win for the witches side, and shortly before she wins ( (for example ep 2, ep 3) she pretends to be whimsical and says: "oh no, I dont really want it that way" Her goals are different from the goal Sayo has imo.Quote:
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- hmmm, so in ep 4 we have the locked room with the restraining devices and the torture-devices and Kyrie (not Krauss-I was wrong there) saying: "Kinzo" is having fun with "Beatrice" there. And since Kinzo=Sayo in the arcs and with that "kinzos" object of love=battler its a hint for me what happened there. -Then we have the fact that battler is "locked up in the strange world of the witches". Anges "let him go!" in ep 3 and beatos: "no, he is my favorite toy, I will never let him go". The meta is basically a giant hint to some kind of closed room... -how fantasy is a decoration of truth, and how the meta is "fantasy", meaning: "behind" it we find the "truth" -EDITbattler being in "fantasy-land" is also hinted at in ep 4 after beato made battler disappear - she talks to maria and they say: "like I thought, magic should only have been used in the mariage sorciere" to which maria says: "yes, I thought the same with ange". Im still thinking what exactly happened when the meta started, but to me it sounds like Beato somehow gave battler the ability to see magic. So this meta really is "just" a decoration of truth...and with this all the torture- talk and the closed-room-talk gets a certain meaning. that would explain why everything gets black once battler is leaving beatos world when he questions himself-they make a point that its not battler that is fading away, but that it is the surroundings - they say his body remains, but the rest falls into blackness (like lambda yelling) - because here he goes back to reality and we know that there is no light in the room and its all black there/EDIT -the fact that the room was explicitly mentioned to be under the kuwadorian in ep 4 when we just learned in ep 3 that the part of the island, where the kuwadorian lies, isnt affected was suspicious to me + all the other stuff said about the room for example the question being brought up if kanon and shannon knew that room and they lied when they said they didnt (they must have lied because theres no way "kinzo" can lock them there without kanon and shannon knowing of the room too...) -we see him with chains -kyrie saying she is envious of him, because he can leave the "family-conference" and she wants to be able ot do that too -The fact that they are talking about "torture" the whole time...That was a hint too the way I see it.. -EDITwhen beato says she will abandon the game in ep 4 and leave battler alone, lambda says: "this is like taking the key to the cage that youre locked in, tieing it to a bird and letting it fly" of course - if beato will leave him alone and wont play any longer, in reality it only means that hell starve to death( -sorry, here I mixed in a bit of my own interpretation) /EDIT -the rosa-scene happens in ep 4, and a dark room is mentioned there too. The relationship between Rosa-battler, Maria-Sayo, and beato-sakutarou was already made clear before if we paid attention to the details. -battler mentions that his head hurts (-> Rosa scene, her head hurts and theres something wrong with her head) -so we have the role-reversal with kinzo-> sayo and beatrice-> battler and we know what kinzo did to beatrice, though my main point is really with the torture and the ring scene, for what happens in the years after that I really dont want to go too deep into it, I read what "Erika" said and I leave it at that. but: imo there cant be any hints for those years in the question arcs because the question arcs all relate to "what happened?", but the meta is occuring (in my theory) simultaneously with the real world, so there cant be any hints for what "will" happen in ep 6, though there can be hints to sayos intentions and her feelings -for the ring-scene - we have the clues that this is a huge issue for Sayo - with kanons small "sword" he didnt want jessica to see (ep 2) and with the fact that Sayo considers "it" a weapon to go against her and is offended by it(->previous post) - whats with the "that you're so proud of?"- this is surely not battlers way of thinking here, but sayos envy/fear of him meeting other girls that is expressed with a sarcastic tone. (she already described him as "arrogant" "stupid" etc. in ep 1 as the narrator - meaning in quite a distorted way...). that she is also afraid of the lust of men (because of her complexes) was also shown in ep 2, and shannon also pities her for not being able to trust in the feelings of men and for believing that men are only lusting after the bodies of women-also ring-scene:her complexes and envy as a guy towards battler is also shown in ep 1 when battler meets kanon for the first time- battler can carry the stuff that kanon cant cause hes too weak (lack of hormones) and his reaction is that he observes battler and mutters :" I too can..." -also for ring-scene:beatos idea to have a marriage respectively her envy for shannon was also hinted at when Beato wanted Shannon to give up on the marriage with George (ep 2 "I wont make them the sacrificies of the 2nd twilight if shannon rejects georges ring)- only one of the three would be able to marry after all (well, the fact that she wants to marry battler was the reason she planned the mass-murder in the first place and said it could have been avoided if he came one year earlier or one year later after george proposed to shannon) -also for ring-scene: a marriage is the culmination of wanting to possess your lover (thats why they say in ep 6 that battler will be "locked in a closed room called marriage") -when beato reveals her heart at the end of ep 4 and says: "you're all alone now on this island, yet here I am, and Im going to kill you", she lets one hand fall down, there is still something missing Do you think its still lacking? Im sure I can find more hints if I take a look at the scenes again...thats what came to mind right now by the way- something that is already mentioned in ep 4 but that we only understand later-when they hold the test for the cousins, they are all called out by kinzo. Just like it was in prime (well at least Rudolf and Kyrie said it was Kinzo holding the test). but with battler, there was a "change of decision" in ep 4 (that honestly in the VN came out of nowhere because who would actually believe that beato had planned her game that way that kinzo would go to meet battler while she herself goes off to see maria). This "change of decision" that he will meet beato instead of kinzo is imo referring to prime as well - the original plan was for battler to meet kinzo (aka rudolf in this situation), but there was some kind of "change in plans" and he met beato instead On the other hand though - what is there in the question arcs that hint at ikuko and touya? hehe, now its your turn Quote:
Im even more convinced now. But I have a question: is there a common opinion about why the kuwadorian is called the kuwadorian? until now I think it goes like that: 9 (ku)-1 =8 (hachi), Id explain this "-1" with her last castle being on rokkenjima, but this last part is just a wild guess...Quote:
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I applaud you for being that way and being able to forgive Sayo, I was the kind of person - even though I know what the point of the story is and even though I know Id be one of the "bad guys" in it -, that could not forgive her, even if we only consider what she planned for the family-conference. I really hated her, lately, with the maria-scenes etc, Ive started to like her a bit more again , but I could never completely forgive her. So that question doesnt really affect me. I see though that for you (and probably for ryukishis intended audience) its an important issue.EDIT Ive been rewatching some scenes. And now it appears to me - this is quite complicated- that battler, even though he forgives much, could not completely forgive sayo/beato in the end. or at least, its hard to live together with so much that has happened. another interpretation: sayo/beato couldnt forgive herself in the end. But there is definitely a problem with just "forgive and you can forget everything". Maybe you can forgive, but you cant forget that easily. The reason I think so is because of a hint we get in ep 4 when battler talks about his family-issues in the balcony-scene: he says:" I could not forgive him, but it became weird, I thought we could at least start over again, from zero. So I became Ushiromiya Battler again." I think thats what they are doing in the end with Sayo=Ikuko and Battler is becoming Touya, so they can start from zero once again, as completely new individuals. And this time, they can talk about mysteries all they want, without anything hindering them. EDIT Ok, there is still something missing in my theory, but I have already revised some parts and I wanted to let you know, that for example the part we finally agreed upon-ep 4 the two beatos on the balcony-are not Sayo and beato imo (Im disagreeing with what I said earlier) , but beato 1 and beato 2 that we see in ep 6. sayo is not yet related to it. I still think beato is doing what she does because she is sayos piece and she has her own will, but I dont think the balcony-scene has anything to do with itAnd I also wanted to let you know how we can get to the beato was abused-conclusion: Beato ep 4: "but Kinzo, no longer tying me to the bed with a collar", we see Beatrice tied up in the manga as well, we hear Beato say in ep 4: "Grab onto my head!Make my face twist in pain, tear me apart like a hawk[...] scratch me and violate me. Ah remind me of kinzo in his younger days. remind me of that day I was taught the joy of being controlled, surrendering and being reduced to furniture" and we know the first beatrice killed herself (ep 3 when beato talks about her past). those are all hints that beatrice was abused by kinzo. but everything "kinzo" says already hints at that as well, like how he would never let his beloved person go even if this person wants to leave you. Because that would be true love etc...(ep 4) also ep 2, when kinzo and beato meet in the end, beato says: "Ive been planning this move for so many years"-to me it sounds like beatrice is taking revenge on kinzo now (id est battler)- their game was put on halt when beatrice died and all the regrets and the hatred etc. were still lingering on, now beato comes back after so many years and makes her move Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-29 at 05:45. |
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