General Eroge Impressions & Discussion

[KanbeKotori]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

"taste" implies stuff related to genre...plot...themes etc... Like what you seemingly mean when you talk about differences in game preferences. I use Dies to show how localizations can fail or almost fail even if an audience loves a game


The disconnect is way deeper than game preferences. TL;DR localizations don't succeed not solely because of the game but because of other factors which have nothing to do with what kind of tastes the audience has

Well I heard the Dies Irae KS was kinda shit, which explains why they failed.

There is simply no reason for it to fail otherwise, people managed to pump enough money for them to make an anime.

Fans as much as they like the VN, need to get something worth their money they are funding. It's the same for businesses. You need to please the stockholders or else it won't succeed.

Also, I've observed there are way too many nukige localized than your typical VNs.

BUT in the first place if fans didn't even like the VN, it's doomed to fail. You see shits like nekopara getting sequels after sequels yet good VNs like Sakura no Uta/White Album 2 CC not getting the attention it deserves.

[PhoenixG]

Originally Posted by KanbeKotori

BUT in the first place if fans didn't even like the VN, it's doomed to fail. You see shits like nekopara getting sequels after sequels yet good VNs like Sakura no Uta/White Album 2 CC not getting the attention it deserves.

Well that comparison is kinda unfair. While lots of the japanese companies doesn't like to sell the rights to localize. Nekopara's right is hold by one person; Sayori.

[KanbeKotori]

Originally Posted by PhoenixG

Well that comparison is kinda unfair. While lots of the japanese companies doesn't like to sell the rights to localize. Nekopara's right is hold by one person; Sayori.

They could always do what FW is doing though, FW is collaborating with AkabeiSoft to localize Sharin no Kuni.

If the thoughts of selling rights to foreign companies is so revolting, they could always do so with other companies like what FW and AkabeiSoft is doing at the moment.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by KanbeKotori

Well I heard the Dies Irae KS was kinda shit, which explains why they failed.

There is simply no reason for it to fail otherwise, people managed to pump enough money for them to make an anime.

Fans as much as they like the VN, need to get something worth their money they are funding. It's the same for businesses. You need to please the stockholders or else it won't succeed.

Also, I've observed there are way too many nukige localized than your typical VNs.

BUT in the first place if fans didn't even like the VN, it's doomed to fail. You see shits like nekopara getting sequels after sequels yet good VNs like Sakura no Uta/White Album 2 CC not getting the attention it deserves.

It failed for the reason Nekopara succeeds....preparing the ground.

Why Nekopara (for that matter, its OVA KS) can succeed so well despite being moege? Because the target audience was already sensitized to it by proper marketing. Enough exposure can sway some people who were initially resistant to something after all. Dies on the other hand, completely failed at understanding what the audience really wanted most (not the game itself otherwise it would not have gone so badly since many actually want the game but rather to get as much as possible out of something)

Like you said, fans need something to get their cash's worth but the main difference is in the perception of that worth relative to the game itself. Dies KS main goal is to get the game funded that's all. But side goals pulled it down even though the main goal never changed (bad donation tiers also but that's another thing).

In short, the actual appeal of the game itself, ie, consumer taste for a type of game.....does not seem to hold as much power as I thought. I used to think it did in a very straightforward manner but it doesn't seem so. Fandom mentality and marketing may actually be larger reasons

[erneiz_hyde]

A question recently crossed my mind. Why is it that isekai is so prevalent in WNs and LNs but is comparatively non-existent in the VN world? One would think it would be a hot bed for it especially for the more kinky ones and the blatant power fantasy. Is it different writer demographics? Different consumer demographics? A decline in VN world in general? Anybody have an idea?

[shmaster]

Isekai is actually a genre that has been overdone.
It already had its boom back in the 90s.

It had a boom again recently on WN because it is a good tool for self insert fantasies that the poor WN writers like to entertain themselves with. And trust me, most of them are bad, which is why only few had recognition.
And even fewer ones does something interesting about it.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

A question recently crossed my mind. Why is it that isekai is so prevalent in WNs and LNs but is comparatively non-existent in the VN world? One would think it would be a hot bed for it especially for the more kinky ones and the blatant power fantasy. Is it different writer demographics? Different consumer demographics? A decline in VN world in general? Anybody have an idea?

Late reply, but I think it's a combination of:

1) There's no point because isekai is just aping off of fantasy RPGs in the first place. You can just make a fantasy game (and there is a regular string of fantasy-themed VNs). There are also already fantasy RPGs and MMOs to compete in the space.

2) Action-centric stories require either a) more complex scripting (with cut-ins, effects, etc.), or b) an actual battle system to pull off well these days. In a LN/WN it's much easier to write whatever sounds cool and not have to show it.

3) The demographic for isekai LN/WN actually is a bit different and a bit younger on the whole than 18+ VNs. There are some game makers that specifically target that same sort of aesthetic, but it's a niche.

Given that isekai WN/LN are so cheap and plentiful, and that a lot of them are already explicit anyway, there's not much VNs can bring to the table in the exact same genre that wouldn't just cost many times more to make. If they really want to do something in that genre, they'd probably be better off following the trend (and of course many VN writers do write LNs and vice-versa).

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Late reply, but I think it's a combination of:

1) There's no point because isekai is just aping off of fantasy RPGs in the first place. You can just make a fantasy game (and there is a regular string of fantasy-themed VNs). There are also already fantasy RPGs and MMOs to compete in the space.

2) Action-centric stories require either a) more complex scripting (with cut-ins, effects, etc.), or b) an actual battle system to pull off well these days. In a LN/WN it's much easier to write whatever sounds cool and not have to show it.

1. Some number of doujin games, and low-budget company still use isekai theme;

2. Isekai doesn't always require combat scene, or battle system, especially if the game is nukige;

===

I personally think why Isekai is not popular in VN is because VN have its own limitation compare to WN and LN.

Aside of self-insert, LN and WN have advantages that both have no clear distance on where, when and how it should end.
Thus allowing writers to expand the universe freely, being isekai that have no clear rules from start made it easier for either high-schooler or salaryman to rise into omnipotent being.

This is opposite to VN.

Story in VN must end in that very disk(s); no playing 'To Be Continued' because no guarantee the game will be popular one (unless the company already have the level of reputation needed) which considered by WN / LN as low risk. 'He rise from a high-schooler / salaryman into omnipotent being' theme that's not nukige require a lot to consider in writing with such limitation. Effectively lead to:

1) Isekai done in simple sword and magic world of medieval era (e.g. Hatsumira);
2) Isekai getting simplified into 'another part of my life' being online game / VR game;
3) Thrown into 'isekai' with established setting that MC had the knowledge (e.g. Koihime Musou)

or either went chuuni (Type-Moon, Light) or doing fantasy from the very start (Eushully) so things can flow naturally and can be ended right with such limitation. Rather than non-existant, I'd prefer to call it 'went into different direction'.

[KanbeKotori]

Looks like Lass is dead. RIP

I wonder being this niche, can the industry survive or not.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by KanbeKotori

Looks like Lass is dead. RIP

I wonder being this niche, can the industry survive or not.

Got source? Terrible if they have wound up..... RIP 11Eyes


OTOH though, there have always been these ADV format games since ~ 30 years back no?

[KanbeKotori]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Got source? Terrible if they have wound up..... RIP 11Eyes


OTOH though, there have always been these ADV format games since ~ 30 years back no?

https://twitter.com/ryokucha_175/sta...43117156114433

Here's the source.

I'm hoping it's not true but since the original source is from nikkan, I can't comment anything.

Also, while that is true, don't forget recently, there was a VN company that died as well due to the same reason.

[Cosmic Eagle]

At the height of eroge in the 2000s, a small company like Minori can pull off Ef combining great art and writing. Likewise all the best stuff are from then or early 2010....Somehow afterwards though, there seems a malaise in the industry for some reason.....stuff became more simple and half-hearted.

There's arguments that writers and artists are shifting to other entertainment media but I somehow don't really buy that. At least game-wise, the point/click ADV text game is stupidly popular in Japan since forever. Hell, most mobage these days are literally ADV style as a basis. It still seems that a drop in quality is the main reason people turn away but why that drop, I can't tell

[Tactics]

Rather than simple and half-hearted, its a simple case of 'careful' approach.
Nowadays, throwing games with complex idea may result on failure as some galge that previously tried to do so, even from a well-known brand, only got backlash as Japanese players became more and more aware about the story quality that carried the idea; counting other media, such as anime, manga and mobages, the competition is harsh.

What happened to Lass is not surprising for me.
After 11Eyes, all other stories that carried Emerald Tablet as well do went downhill in overall quality. While their fans still look forward to the continuation, they're expecting 11Eyes kind of quality to return instead of simply a continuation. With their low-prices title not selling well, it can't be helped such result happened.

[KanbeKotori]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

At the height of eroge in the 2000s, a small company like Minori can pull off Ef combining great art and writing. Likewise all the best stuff are from then or early 2010....Somehow afterwards though, there seems a malaise in the industry for some reason.....stuff became more simple and half-hearted.

There's arguments that writers and artists are shifting to other entertainment media but I somehow don't really buy that. At least game-wise, the point/click ADV text game is stupidly popular in Japan since forever. Hell, most mobage these days are literally ADV style as a basis. It still seems that a drop in quality is the main reason people turn away but why that drop, I can't tell

It's true that point/click ADV is stupidly popular seeing how other forms of media are adapting it, but it's kinda true as well that the PC platform are generally not doing well. Consoles are very popular and since VNs centers itself on the PC platform, there are bound to be effects of it which what worries me that the industry may die out

As for releases post 2000s, we still have occasional excellent stuff out there like Sakura no Uta, which was released in 2015 and Chaos;Child, in 2016. That being said, we need more of such titles but they are hard to come by.

In any case, I just hope the industry will survive someway or another(hopefully not by shifting their medium to consoles........)

[Cosmic Eagle]

It is clear now though, that people are no longer attracted to run-of-the-mill plotlines since there are too many of those already.

Also, I wouldn't say that quality is solely a factor of how daring or out of the mould your story ideas are. Sometimes building atmosphere and depth of writing count as much

Originally Posted by KanbeKotori

It's true that point/click ADV is stupidly popular seeing how other forms of media are adapting it, but it's kinda true as well that the PC platform are generally not doing well. Consoles are very popular and since VNs centers itself on the PC platform, there are bound to be effects of it which what worries me that the industry may die out

As for releases post 2000s, we still have occasional excellent stuff out there like Sakura no Uta, which was released in 2015 and Chaos;Child, in 2016. That being said, we need more of such titles but they are hard to come by.

In any case, I just hope the industry will survive someway or another(hopefully not by shifting their medium to consoles........)

Sakura no Uta and C;C are children of the 2000s though since the former is like the spiritual successor to Suba Hibi and the latter to C;H. PC gaming declining in JP is one thing but aren't most ADV makers already migrating to consoles?


Also you enocunter the foreigner in Japan dilemma of "90% of my gaming is on PC but no one here does that" right? lol.... it really seems a PS console is indispensible when you reside in JP

[KanbeKotori]

Woah, the reply came at the same time as my previous post that I totally missed it. Such timings lol.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

It is clear now though, that people are no longer attracted to run-of-the-mill plotlines since there are too many of those already.

Also, I wouldn't say that quality is solely a factor of how daring or out of the mould your story ideas are. Sometimes building atmosphere and depth of writing count as much

There really isn't a lot of theme to explore around though. The whole industry, like LNs/manga/anime, all survives on creativity, but there is so much ideas that can come out before things go stale(considering how much stuff are out till now, somethings are already stale as it is). Run-of-the-mill plotlines(like typical moege) ensures variation can exist without much changes to the original skeleton, which allows them to sustain themselves by pumping new titles out instead of sitting like a duck until some great idea pops out(one reason why you notice the boom in certain genres in a particular medium - isekai theme for LNs and idols in anime for example). Also, not everyone can write extremely well. One can't expect all writers to be the same calibre as SCAJI or Ou Jackson.

Sakura no Uta and C;C are children of the 2000s though since the former is like the spiritual successor to Suba Hibi and the latter to C;H. PC gaming declining in JP is one thing but aren't most ADV makers already migrating to consoles?


Also you enocunter the foreigner in Japan dilemma of "90% of my gaming is on PC but no one here does that" right? lol.... it really seems a PS console is indispensible when you reside in JP

Well since I hardly game I can't say much but I've been reading VNs for a very long time and back during those days, VNs were almost exclusively released on PC only. Even now if we take a look, majority of the VNs out there are still PC release mainly. I don't really favor consoles since I like to do everything on a single machine(surf net, read VNs etc....). Besides, consoles are extremely not portable friendly(the ones that VNs usually releases to are mainly not portable friendly(PS3/4) which makes me always wonder why are consoles so damn popular here. I had to get a PS console though just because certain titles are only release there......

[n0m@n]

The hell! Lass is dead!? Last year was elf. Now Lass huh.
Such disappointment. I liked 11eyes...　And looking at the last page it seemed like it had a fan translation just recently too.

[relentlessflame]

Late reply, but my suspicion is that the traditional eroge market is being strangled slowly by a combination of light novels, mobage, and an overall dwindling market. This is why you're seeing a lot more experiments with shorter form, multi-volume projects with all-ages versions that can easily sell on global markets like Steam, and then high-priced bundles (or crowdfunding) with exclusive merchandise to take the extra money off the top.

I suspect younger customers are not as willing to put down ~8,800+ yen to pre-order a game to get the tokuten even though the game may end up vastly disappointing, but this is really the only way eroge companies made their money recently. People who just want to play the game will wait for the art collectors (who buy the game multiple times to collect all the bonuses they like) and just get the game second-hand for half the price or less. And, besides all that, it ignores the fact that younger customers are probably spending less time on PCs in the first place, and spending more time on their phones.

Breaking a project down into multiple volumes takes a smaller upfront investment and allows them to recoup their investment as they go, in addition to cutting a project shorter (or extending it) depending on its success. Again, basically light novel style. It also allows them to hit a lower price and get their characters in front of more people, which opens the door to merchandise sales. It seems to me that many of them are trying to follow in the footsteps of Nekowork's and build a brand out of characters that allows them to continue to monetize it over various forms and formats (and to different audiences, including global audiences) over time. This way of doing it is also more suitable for potential distribution of the games (or spin-offs) on smartphones, which some companies have already looked into.

If this trend continues, the eroge space could look very different 3-5 years from now. I suspect there will probably always be some "great works" that are done in the old style and format (as there will continue to be some demand for that), but there just isn't enough of a market anymore for ~15-20+ new games to be released each month at ~9000 yen each, and the continued pressure will push the quality down (making people less likely to pre-order, etc.).

[Cosmic Eagle]

Well to be honest, I don't really mind if the format changes (or hell, if they move on to more familiar stuff like JRPG or novels or even Comiket style doujin releases entirely) as long as the platform for writers and artists to collaborate and present their works still exists. For me the main concern really is it becoming no longer feasible for them to continue in this line = the true death of this sector of Japanese gaming.

I don't see the demand for this going away of course but then again...you never know...


The mobage people really hit the right spot in creating zombie followers by combining anime/manga/gaming etc with of all things.......casino gambling lol

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Well to be honest, I don't really mind if the format changes (or hell, if they move on to more familiar stuff like JRPG or novels or even Comiket style doujin releases entirely) as long as the platform for writers and artists to collaborate and present their works still exists. For me the main concern really is it becoming no longer feasible for them to continue in this line = the true death of this sector of Japanese gaming.

I don't see the demand for this going away of course but then again...you never know...

Yeah, I definitely don't see it going away entirely by any means. (If anything, the success of light novels shows that eroge writers and artists are still very much in demand, no matter how "derivative" some people think the stories have become.)

But, the old way of marketing it has probably had its day unless you're a powerhouse. When Sayori and team can raise a million dollars to self-produce an OVA based on their short quasi-self-published game series, the whole market is going to turn their heads. They generally haven't seen that sort of market demand in a decade or more. The fact they're also successfully tapping into an international audience (and thus growing beyond the shrinking Japanese market) is also going to be a huge appeal. Of course, it's not like all the inevitable copy-cats will be successful either -- I know Frontwing really had it in their heads that Corona;Blossom was following the same formula, but were hugely disappointed when it flopped. Probably Grisaia:PB will be more successful since it's in an existing popular franchise.

Anyway, the next years should be interesting. Hopefully they don't flood the market so badly that the bubble bursts completely, but it almost seems inevitable. We'll see.