[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Renall

• Eva has some modest reason to cover for Kyrie.
• Battler has little to no reason to cover for Kyrie.
• Yasu has absolutely no reason to cover for Kyrie.

The only people for which this triangle works are probably Battler or George. Yasu wouldn't care that much about covering for the parents for Ange's sake. Battler and Eva probably wouldn't care about families outside their own or Ange's, but Battler probably would care about one of his cousins.

Likewise Battler and Yasu might cover for Yasu or another servant, but Eva has absolutely no reason to do so.

Do you mean "covering" as far as 1998 goes, or while the events are happening in 1986? Because nobody has to cover for anybody as long as Eva kills the culprit and she takes the survivors to Kuwadorian. Eva might have even told Battler "it was Kyrie" but hey, he forgets everything anyway.

Looking at 1998...
If we look at Eva, Kyrie is one of the most likely suspects since she would be hiding everything to protect Ange.
Battler might have decided to turn Kyrie in, but he was amnesia'd. And I don't recall if Tohya actually remembers everything in scenes we are shown.
Yasu is probably dead if Ikuko != Yasu, otherwise she doesn't give a shit since all she wants to do is play a game with Battler... or something... ok yeah if Yasu's alive then it doesn't make sense, but if Yasu == Ikuko, well, Yasu's a total and complete dick, anyway so...

Unless I'm misunderstanding?

[Dormin]

Renall that was one hell of a long comment

George being the culprit could work out too, I guess. But about the toxicity of the relationship, I can totally see it happening with kyrie-culprit. For eva, ange was everything that george could not be after dying. She was a replacement. She was a child of the killer. She symbolized everything that eva hated: kyrie and the sadness of letting the title of "head" go to someone else than george. Add ange blaming eva to be the real culprit into equation and we pretty much have the toxic relationship described. Ange felt eva was a bitch as she never even wanted to consider the change that the attitude eva had towards her was the result of eva having her entire life crushed and forced to take care of the child of the killer.

Now someone is probably going to point out: "why eva never told the truth to ange/media" but what ever might have happened on the island it is possible that in order to survive eva had to do some really nasty shit that can't bare the daylight.

And about genji dressing yasu as beatrice, I literally didn't even remember this part and I must say that is some hard evidence against my view of genji. I guess we could try to explain that as genji knowing kinzo will die soon and wanting to introduce them, but right now that feels also very wrong

[UsagiTenpura]

Another thing:
Mostly everything related to Ange, Battler's ascension into "suddenly knowing everything" and GaapBeato playing the role of a witch for "And then there were none" with Yasu...

These seems to imply becoming a witch/a golden witch/a gamemaster isn't something that has "knowing the truth" as a requirement.


Probably a Battler culprit would fit most of Renall's requirements as much as a George one btw if not more.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

I disagree a bit with you, Renall.
I think both Eva and Battler would cover for Kyrie. Not for Kyrie's sake, perhaps, but for Ange's. I think their relationship would have gotten that toxic even if she was covering for Kyrie. I mean, Eva is pretty broken.

But you bring up very good points about George. He is also ranked high on my "probable culprits", mostly because of ep 4 and how much I dislike him, generally.

[Renall]

You have to also look at the attitude of the meta-characters in ep8.

• All of the adults, including Kyrie, want Eva to protect Ange in the future. The cousins are absent from this so we never find out their intentions as such. But it's a bit odd to have Kyrie being so nice in a scene that Ange doesn't even see.
• Both Battler and Beatrice have a desire to tell Ange the truth but also a desire to conceal it. If their motive isn't selfish (and thus understandable, even if wrong), then they're just being patronizing assholes to Ange. If it is selfish (because telling the truth hurts them personally), then everyone is at fault and failing to understand what is important to the other side (Battler/Beatrice want to protect people's memory because they feel at fault for what happened, Ange wants closure).
• Ange's reaction to the truth is ultimately not what I would've thought it would be were Battler, her parents, or Eva the culprit.
• Eva is seriously a psychological wreck and I don't think she'd go that far just because of Kyrie. If Ange were a toxic bitch, why wouldn't she in a moment of Anger blurt out that her mom did everything? She took the truth to her grave, for crying out loud. You don't do that for an in-law who coincidentally murdered everyone, but you might do it for your own son.

[Kealym]

Few things.
1. Yeah, as everyone has stated, I think OC was the show us the construction of a game board, and need not have any bearing on reality, or Prime, or what have you. This is just in response to UsagiTenpura suggesting that EP7 TP was a naked scenario, which I agree with, though that still need not reflect the Truth.

2. Our Confessions showed Yasu lying to , like, all her accomplices. Only Nanjo is inexplicably loyal in that scenario (I mean, we have to assume he was checking bodies), and to be fair ... ... Kratsuhi is pretty dumb, and unlike the other adults, also have Kinzo's death and massive embezzlement hanging over their heads

3. For all that people have problems accepting a Yasu-culprit, I've never been fond of the "someone hijacked the game" train of thought, either. I mean, an inheritance plot is certainly IN THERE, but the way the ranking system seems to work (a theme that was NEVER developed beyond "our seating arrangements at dinner sure are convenient for conversation"), actual murder is pretty much to nobody's actual benefit, ever. Well, I can imagine a scenario where it could be, but they're all moot in face of the very high number of deaths actually following the epitaph would call for. I'unno, just me.

4. Pretty sure Genji was more concerned with possible sexual assault than the idea of possible incest.

[Dormin]

From my point of view the entire ep 8 was the lesson of umineko: it really doesn't matter who the culprit is as the fact is that people did die. Therefore searching for the vicious sides of people is terrible and "forgets the heart". Everyone is described as grade-A nice guy in ep 8. Even goddamn kinzo. Saying it is strange for kyrie to act nice in an episode that makes a point of being nice is not even an argument. The reason the truth is never revealed is because Ryu, and in universe because searching for a culprit means searching for the negative sides of people aka going against the lesson of umineko.

Eva took the truth to her grave. That is totally understandable even if we happen think kyrie as a culprit:

First, eva is not very nice person. While we have many indicators that she in fact had some understandment and love towards ange, keeping the truth hidden was a weapon when the relationship went toxic. While I agree with you about the part "eva might accidentally reveal the truth while being angered", you must understand what the truth meant for eva: "Your mother was the culprit hahaha I also probably did some of the killings and detonated the entire island to conceal my part in everything hahaha I am also a murderer."

No way eva is going to jail for ange and her wanting to know the truth. Eva is not stupid. She is clever and sometimes selfish bitch. She knows that if she had ANY part in the whole mess revealing ANYTHING is a shitty call. If I were her in those circumstances I'd take the truth into grave with me

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Dormin

From my point of view the entire ep 8 was the lesson of umineko: it really doesn't matter who the culprit is as the fact is that people did die. Therefore searching for the vicious sides of people is terrible and "forgets the heart". Everyone is described as grade-A nice guy in ep 8. Even goddamn kinzo. Saying it is strange for kyrie to act nice in an episode that makes a point of being nice is not even an argument. The reason the truth is never revealed is because Ryu, and in universe because searching for a culprit means searching for the negative sides of people aka going against the lesson of umineko.

There's two problems with that:

• If there was indeed a crime, it's not fair to the innocent to say "you should look at the good sides of everybody!" when one of those people is a mass murderer. There's a big difference between "set aside that he was a bit of a sleazeball, he was kind and loyal to his children" and "ignore that he killed all the other characters, he wasn't so bad!"
• Ange does not see the scene I am talking about. So there's no reason for it to be there unless it's a lie being told to nobody. Why would Ryukishi do this?

[Dormin]

Oh, it has been so long since I actually discussed umineko. This is the best part of the entire game, sharing theories and arguing with people. So let's go renall.

I agree murder is bad. But thinking back the game, the point of ep 7 tea party is to show even if we achieve good ending, everyone will still die. To me, that is one of the biggest lessons of umineko and an example of the causality: no matter what happens, people die. No matter who the culprit is, people die. Therefore searching for the culprit is a waste of time. It really doesn't matter what happened on the island, people died. Using this method of thinking and the principle of quantum physical worldview, there are countless of fragments/realities where everyone was the culprit. That's what ep 8 is all about. It is a story orchestrated by battler, that has reached the same conclusion: there is no need to name a single culprit and carry hatred, because things happen the way they happen. Umineko is about love. Love towards people. It is about understanding the goodness in humanity. That is the lesson. That is what the story is all about.

Even if we say that Kyrie probably was the true culprit, for the people inside the catbox it really doesn't matter. People died. Someone was the culprit. There are scenarios where culprit was someone else. Battler forgave everyone. Even yasu, that if we listen to Ryu even for a little bit, is supposed to be the canon explanation.

Maybe ange doesn't see people being happy all the time. Does that mean kyrie should act like a culprit when nobody is looking? Episode 8 is about love. It is built in the way ange/reader gets the lesson: the scenes where people are nice do not even include any kind of attempt to search for the culprit. They just are, with the attempt to show that every character in the story is indeed human.

[DaBackpack]

I interpreted it a little differently.

Ange spent most of her conscious life searching for an explanation. She was miserable and obsessive; hell, she even said that "her life ended when she found the truth." After Eva dies, there is no living person who could have committed the murders (barring Battler... probably?). Yet, she still slaves over finding this "truth" like it means something, but it really doesn't: will it make her feel better? Will it put somebody into custody? No and no.

Ange needs to accept that the truth will NOT make her happy, and will NOT serve any practical purpose besides to satisfy her curiosity and maybe give her a scapegoat. In fact, it's doing the exact opposite: it's turning her into a hateful person. The point of EP8 was for Ange to stop looking into the past and search for this "culprit" because to be honest, it doesn't really matter when everybody is dead. She can't turn anybody in to the authorities ("Oh Gohda did it, great, let's arrest- oh wait"). All she MIGHT get is "satisfaction" but look how THAT turned out (Eva's diary). This search is tearing her apart. She needs to move on before it kills her.

That was my take on it.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not saying that speculation is useless: it's not. The Witch Hunters have a large gathering of people that are interested in the truth. But it's a hobby to them, something they enjoy doing. It's not hurting them. Ange, on the other hand, is very clearly negatively affected by her quest, and since it won't DO anything (on the contrary, it might "end her life") she should stop and try to look forward.

[Renall]

But it's other people concealing the truth that is hurting her. The search only exists because people are hiding things. That argument, while sentimental, is simply stupid; the entire reason Ange is in pain is because of the actions of other people to prevent her from knowing. The truth in this equation is an entirely emotionally-neutral issue; what's actually killing her is the pursuit of something that other people have conspired to hide. She is entirely justified in being upset by this.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Renall

But it's other people concealing the truth that is hurting her. The search only exists because people are hiding things. That argument, while sentimental, is simply stupid; the entire reason Ange is in pain is because of the actions of other people to prevent her from knowing. The truth in this equation is an entirely emotionally-neutral issue; what's actually killing her is the pursuit of something that other people have conspired to hide. She is entirely justified in being upset by this.

Who's hiding the truth from her? Eva? She's dead. The point is that AFTER Eva dies, there is nothing Ange can do to arrive at a solution with reasonable confidence and despite this, she makes it her life's goal to find the "answer" and searches anyway. There is no way to verify her answer and nothing GOOD actually comes from it.
I mean yeah, she can still be mad at Eva, but she reads her diary and completely rejects its contents. There's something else at work besides the fact that she's angry that people are lying to her. She WANTS a reason to hate Eva or whatever. But what's the point, really?

Look at the Trick Ending versus the Magic Ending. The "Bad End" has her murdering people in an outrageous plot to uncover the truth no matter what, if I remember (okay, I guess Amakusa had it coming). What happens in the Magic Ending? She moves on and writes children's literature. She DOESN'T jump off the skyscraper. She resigns from the Ushiromiya Group and 'disappears'. She's moved on.

Looking at these two conclusions, I'm inclined to believe that this is one of the central conflicts in Ange's story: linger on the past and die, or move on and live?

[Renall]

It's other people that put her in that situation. If your argument is that giving up is the only way out of that, it doesn't change that it wasn't right for her to be put in that situation and it's perfectly acceptable for her to be angry about it. Eva might as well have murdered her family for all the good she did for her in hiding what actually did happen. That message is equally as viable as the false dichotomy that ep8 sets up, and it's vastly more insidious.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Renall

It's other people that put her in that situation. If your argument is that giving up is the only way out of that, it doesn't change that it wasn't right for her to be put in that situation and it's perfectly acceptable for her to be angry about it. Eva might as well have murdered her family for all the good she did for her in hiding what actually did happen. That message is equally as viable as the false dichotomy that ep8 sets up, and it's vastly more insidious.

Ange has a right to be angry about the situation others put her in, yes. That's not the point I'm addressing: it's about her future. What is Ange going to do after Eva dies? She'll search and search and search for something that cannot be verified or proven and possibly drive herself mad, or, as shown in the VN, she'll die.

Under most other circumstances, what I'm saying isn't correct: for instance, if the culprit still poses a threat to other human beings then yes you need to make sure that no further incidents will happen. But that can't happen here.

What is the point of searching for the answer for Ange? Is it really worth DYING over? She doesn't need to abandon the search entirely, I guess, but she's become so fixated on it that she's lost sight of the important things, namely living.

[Renall]

No, what you said is right, that's exactly the reason I say it's a false dichotomy. Ryukishi sets up a situation where you must either give up or become consumed by an obsession. Obviously there's quite a lot of leeway between those two things. You could take Amakusa's advice and moderate your search for the truth to not be one of revenge against the people who wronged you (by hiding the truth)... but still pursue it. The story in ep8 seems to forget what it said earlier about what a Witch of Truth actually is, and tries to set up this notion that you (and Ange) can only have it one of two ways.

That aside, she's not moving on anyway. She's recreated the mansion hall and she tries to meet a man who once perhaps was her brother. How is that really moving on, especially if she's accepted that he's dead? It's hypocrisy, because ultimately the truth is that truth is a higher good that has inherent value to Ange, and even the text says so (even if the author doesn't know it). Even if Ange wants to tell herself the whole thing is more for his sake than hers, I have my doubts.

And the point is the whole thing could've been avoided if Eva had just said something. I choose to believe she didn't decide not to tell because she made a patronizing decision that Ange didn't need to know; rather, I want to think it's because she made a selfish decision to say nothing because of what the truth would've meant to her. I think the same must be true for Battler and Beatrice, as otherwise they're either assholes or evil in the ep8 narrative. And I'm rather sure that wasn't at all intended. Selfish motives for concealing the truth are wrong, but they're human, and it makes more practical and thematic sense that they'd be hurting Ange unintentionally out of an inability to mediate their own desires with hers than deciding she doesn't really need to know and thus intentionally hurting her.

[haguruma]

I just open my post with my basic point.
There cannot be proof of love.

Originally Posted by Renall

And why would he go and reintroduce said person to Kinzo, in the same damn dress that got him so hot and bothered for his other daughter? Like... seriously dude? What was the point of protecting him/her again?

Because he knew that Kinzo was dying and despite him mistrusting him entirely, he still was Kinzo's oldest and probably only friend and he felt a strong feeling of both love and obligation for him.

Yasu can't, by her own plans, be with them every waking moment. The instant she is out of sight and out of mind (and remember, they probably know about Shkanon if they're brought into the loop), they go "Oh by the way I've been coerced by Shannon, who it turns out is absolutely batshit insane. All of our lives are in danger, we need to get the hell out of here, run into the forest, and just don't stop running until we're out of island."

You cannot be sure who is actually working with who. Thus even if people felt the need to conspire against Yasu after being introduced to her scheme, they couldn't be sure that they would not be sold out for one of the same reason they started working with her in the first place, fear or greed.
One person less working for Yasu implies a good portion of money more left over to divide among them.

He outright states multiple times that money is a lame and weak thing, and that there's much stronger magic. He also has the adults repeatedly demonstrate throughout the fantasy scenes that there are things more important to them than money or even pride.

While that is true, there are also enough deconstructions of fantasy scenes as well as character development that show how money is essentially a means to achieve higher goals. Rudolph's goal was not amassing money but saving his company and keeping his promise to his co-workers. Rosa's goal was not money but getting her husband and family life back. Eva's goal was not money but making her family happy and prosperous.

She is a cautious and vindicitive premeditator, and there's nothing to suggest she premeditated the crime as it appears to have happened (if nothing else, she could not have accounted for the explosion).

Kyrie left her daughter in a home that she had left a long time ago and had a very bad relationship with. This alone is proof enough that she expected something to happen that would be too much for a sick 6 year old to handle.

[*]Battler has little to no reason to cover for Kyrie.

Battler knew that Kyrie was his mother and thus covered not only for Ange's sake, but out of filial piety.

[*]Yasu has absolutely no reason to cover for Kyrie.[/list]

There is no known record of the events given by Yasu after they occured, thus she could neither cover for her nor accuse her.

Originally Posted by Renall

Selfish motives for concealing the truth are wrong, but they're human, and it makes more practical and thematic sense that they'd be hurting Ange unintentionally out of an inability to mediate their own desires with hers than deciding she doesn't really need to know and thus intentionally hurting her.

What is intentional about it if they decide and BELIEVE that her not knowing the truth is the best thing for her? They are not doing it out of intentional malice or superiority, they are doing it out of misguided good-will.
If a parent keeps his child from going outside, because it could get hurt, that is surely motivated by good intentions, but in the end keeps the child from becoming self-reliant and thus hurts it in the end.

I understand you're reasoning, but I think you are seeing malice and evil where there is none.

EDIT: Concerning the believability of Genji's portrayal I wanted to go into a little detail how I see him.

Like I said above, I see his reasoning being torn between being a close friend to Kinzo, but at the same time disagreeing with his decisions. He cannot repair any of the damage done by revealing Kinzo's crimes, as people who would benefit from exposing him would (on several levels) suffer more than they would gain.
He believes that hiding Beatrice II's child from the world also benefits the greater scheme, in a way it might also be an attempt at redemption for what he had at least silently watched in the case of her mother.
The biggest flaw, as with most of lies in Umineko, is that it advances beyond his control incredibly fast.
He cannot protect the child from Natsuhi as that would reveal his favorism for the child and would make it stand out to her as well as Kinzo. Even if both Natsuhi and Kinzo had a hunch that the child might have been THE child, they would have no proof and every step of taking a stance would pose a possible threat towards Genji's goal of hiding and protecting said child.

I wouldn't even say that his portrayal is far from the truth, as he is involved in such a huge amount of crimes that a stance of "I just want it to end" is not completely unbelievable.

• hiding a refugee/illegal immigrant
• assisted imprisonment
• omission
• child abduction
• concealment of manslaughter/accidents

Are just what comes to my head by shortly thinking about it. Even if he did leave the island and wasn't immediately convicted, he would have nowhere to go.
The child, Yasu, was the only thing that might have kept him from giving up, so said child's death would rob him of any reason to live.

You could say that, were he a good parent to Yasu, he should have tried to keep her from her suicidal tendencies, get her off the island and make her start a new life. Still, he felt hugely indebted to Kinzo's house and could therefore probably not imagine ripping this apart.
Yes, this is arguing with a huge amount of Japaneseness, but the aspect of "being indebted" plays a large part into vertical relationships in Japan and even though Kinzo has done horrible things, Genji might still feel indebted by Kinzo saving his life and giving him a new home on Rokkenjima after all this time. By not being accustomed to those often repeated paradigms, it might be difficult to understand Genji's behavior beyond his servant-position.

Yes, from a perspective of the social and philosophical stance of Individualism this might appear hard to understand, but one has to understand that this line of thought was (and in many parts still is not) the central train of thought in many Asian societies.

The same goes for Natsuhi and Krauss' reason to go with Yasu's bomb threat. It is not only them being cowards, it is also the fear of losing face no matter what way of resistance they choose.
Getting the siblings in on everything would reveal them hiding Kinzo's death and Krauss' inability to handle the families finances. This would not only be admitting a crime, but also losing face in front of his younger siblings and prostrating themselves before them.
Them revealing Yasu's threat to the outside world by disarming her and making her plan fail would ruin Krauss' side of the family on a very personal level. His only collateral right now is Rokkenjima itself, which would lose a lot of value after the explosives were discovered, not speaking of him having to explain how he could use a possibly dangerous island as collateral in the first place, especially if Yasu is still alive and would turn out to be the actual inheritor of Kinzo's fortune including the island.

[AuraTwilight]

Kyrie left her daughter in a home that she had left a long time ago and had a very bad relationship with. This alone is proof enough that she expected something to happen that would be too much for a sick 6 year old to handle.

They are also the only family Rudolf's branch of the family had to leave Ange with, period. This isn't indicative of anything.

There is no known record of the events given by Yasu after they occured, thus she could neither cover for her nor accuse her.

The Message Bottles.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

They are also the only family Rudolf's branch of the family had to leave Ange with, period. This isn't indicative of anything.

They could have hired a professional babysitter to take care of Ange.
Kyrie was supposed to have cut ties with her family.
Her family clearly later showed signs of increased hostility towards Kyrie and Ange, with them only as a means to gain wealth.
They are not the only means to have Ange taken care of.

The Message Bottles.

If we consider the message bottles were plans for a crime they precede the incident.
If Yasu died in the incident she could have not written an accord of the events.

Please don't forget that I edited some parts of my post

[Dormin]

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

Ange needs to accept that the truth will NOT make her happy, and will NOT serve any practical purpose besides to satisfy her curiosity and maybe give her a scapegoat. In fact, it's doing the exact opposite: it's turning her into a hateful person. The point of EP8 was for Ange to stop looking into the past and search for this "culprit" because to be honest, it doesn't really matter when everybody is dead. She can't turn anybody in to the authorities ("Oh Gohda did it, great, let's arrest- oh wait"). All she MIGHT get is "satisfaction" but look how THAT turned out (Eva's diary). This search is tearing her apart. She needs to move on before it kills her.

If I understood you correctly then I'd say your view of ep 8 is relatively close to mine. The truth is viewed as negative, trivial detail.

Originally Posted by Renall

But it's other people concealing the truth that is hurting her. The search only exists because people are hiding things. That argument, while sentimental, is simply stupid; the entire reason Ange is in pain is because of the actions of other people to prevent her from knowing. The truth in this equation is an entirely emotionally-neutral issue; what's actually killing her is the pursuit of something that other people have conspired to hide. She is entirely justified in being upset by this.

You see, the thing in here is that Ange has every reason to be upset. I would be in that situation. Ange and her part of the story is closely linked to obsession. But that doesn't mean interpretation of ep 8 is wrong, or that any of the characters in the story SHOULD act in a way that makes sense from your viewpoint. The truth is trivial and hurts people. Episode 8 makes this clear. Murder is not emotionally-neutral issue. People dying is not emotionally-neutral fact. If the truth involves any of those (which it certainly does) that means the truth is not emotionally-neutral.

You are saying my interpretation couldn't be true because it is unfair towards ange that deserves to know the truth. When they Cry are surprisingly tender stories: higurashi is about friendship and umineko about goodness of human nature. I don't see any problem with characters of the story trying their best to hide facts that cause only suffering.

If you claim that only reason Ange is suffering is "the need to know the truth" thus making hiding the truth a mistake move, then you should consider this: every character and certainly battler orchestrating things knows the truth hurts more than not knowing and decides to hide it. There is nothing unlogical in that: battler is trying to protect her sister the only way he can. When ange learns the truth, it indeed causes suffering for her.

Characters being unlogical because what you believe to be unlogical is only an opinion. Have you seen eva 3.33 and the shitstorm that it caused because characters are acting unlogical? The logic behind the actions is subjective, and if you have the same mindset and basic understanding of their way of thinking, justifying their actions is possible also from subjective viewpoint. Claiming something to be unlogical turns out to be equally good statement as "I'd probably done differently as that character right there, because I personally believe his/her reasoning to be different from mine".

Originally Posted by haguruma

[COLOR="Blue"]
If we consider the message bottles were plans for a crime they precede the incident.
If Yasu died in the incident she could have not written an accord of the events.

The message bottles have always been interesting detail. Depending on our take of Yasu they can be easily seen as plans for murder or then something completely different. Think about ep 4 and meta with maria killing her mom. It is a trick she learned from beatrice (and it was yasu writing the bottles), and is in totally in line with the basic principle of the contents of the bottles: both things (meta, bottles) involve killing in fictitious world, that never happened (if bottles predate rokkenjima-incident then there was no certainty of murders happening) so we can see the bottles as yasus way to release his/her anger. Even the act of sending bottle-mail is very romantic deed and would totally fit in the view of non-culprit yasu.

[Dormin]

In non-any related speculation:

If we consider the setting of umineko being a murder story, the meta level is beatrice trying to trick battler into believing her truth. Wouldn't this mean that taken to meta-meta level the reader and Ryu have exactly the same relationship as battler and beatrice? Wouldn't this mean that our objective as reader is to not accept the truth and culprit that Ryu is trying to show us? Wouldn't this mean that Yasu is just meta-meta twist Ryu generated in the intention of trying to make us believe in his lies?