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Old 2012-03-19, 10:23   Link #6721
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Ryuutai View Post
That one was a date, she was also ok with being kissed by him. She is continuing to lie. I would hate if my best friend did this to me.
Exactly because she remembers that she was in a relationship with Keima (and this relationship is starting again, since they made up, that evening), continuing to hid this fact to her best friend is very cruel.
I wonder how some readers can't see how awful Ayumi's actions are. They are just fanboys, it's the only explanation. Well, I'm a girl, and I'm indifferent to her cuteness and chest, luckily.
What date? All Keima did during her capture was stalk her and put up conspicuous signs to cheer for her. They never actually went out anywhere. Even the final moments of the capture ended up on school grounds, and that was more of a confrontation than a real date.
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Old 2012-03-19, 14:00   Link #6722
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Originally Posted by Solafighter View Post
Ayumi kissed Keima(she made the steps). So she was obvious ok to kiss him.

Sry, but now I want to know, what you are exactly talking about.
What was a date?
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
What date? All Keima did during her capture was stalk her and put up conspicuous signs to cheer for her. They never actually went out anywhere. Even the final moments of the capture ended up on school grounds, and that was more of a confrontation than a real date.
I'm talking about the date they have just had in these last chapters, after he asked her to meet her, not about her first conquest.
This one was a date, please, don't tell me it wasn't and that she went to him just for getting back her panties...That one was a pathetic excuse both for him and her.
Also, you can call it date or not, it isn't really important how you call it, but she just met him, she went to the park with him...they were together, in a romantic mood (come on, he had just told her that she is still the most precious one to him! she went to him because she wanted to give him another chance)...
Anyway, at Miyako's home, when Chihiro asked her "were you with Katsuragi?" she answered "uh, no...no..." I don't care if she is embarrassed, this means to lie, lie to your best friend, after she has just been dumped by that guy and you also saw that, and you know how harsh he had been with her.

I'm not saying that Ayumi must sacrifice her feelings for Chihiro, only being honest. All these lies are hurting Chihiro, not helping her. But Ayumi still lies to her.
Honesty is the most important thing in friendship, to me.
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Old 2012-03-19, 14:31   Link #6723
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Originally Posted by Ryuutai View Post
I'm talking about the date they have just had in these last chapters, after he asked her to meet her, not about her first conquest.
This one was a date, please, don't tell me it wasn't and that she went to him just for getting back her panties...That one was a pathetic excuse both for him and her.
So you rather leave your parties with some guy and not be sure what sort of lewd acts are being done with it. No it is not a date

To be fair he is dragging her around and I'm sure because she has feelings for him she is allowing it, but she has been shown to try and resist her own feelings because of Chihiro which to me shows how much they mean to each other. However her actions are understandable not wanting to hurt Chihiro unnecessarily, its a white lie. Of course from our point of view it looks worse because Chihiro is actually watching Keima be his capturing self.

We knew from the start someone had to get hurt because a guy making countless girls genuinely fall in love with him has no happy ending at least till it finally ends, there is bound to be drama.
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Old 2012-03-19, 15:24   Link #6724
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So you rather leave your parties with some guy and not be sure what sort of lewd acts are being done with it. No it is not a date
I think she knows that Keima was using her panties just as an excuse, Ayumi could be naive, but not so much.

Quote:
To be fair he is dragging her around and I'm sure because she has feelings for him she is allowing it
She went there because she wanted it, and she isn't forced by him to follow him.
If I was Ayumi, simply I would have told him "Katsuragi, sorry, but now our meeting ends here. Before, I need to speak with Chihiro. You know, she's my best friend, and I want to be honest with her about my feelings, before to accept yours for me."

This is the kind of behaviour that I would have had, as friend.

Quote:
but she has been shown to try and resist her own feelings because of Chihiro which to me shows how much they mean to each other.
Since she can't resist, she must only be honest. Chihiro hasn't only been dumped by the guy she liked, who basically played with her heart, but she also just found out that her best friend was in a relationship with him, but she was hidding it to her. She got a double body blow in few hours.
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Old 2012-03-19, 16:21   Link #6725
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... Or short, Ayumi is in love. Doesnt want to destroy the friendship with Chihiro.

If it would be so easy, as Ryuutai said ("Katsuragi, sorry, but now our meeting ends here. Before, I need to speak with Chihiro. You know, she's my best friend, and I want to be honest with her about my feelings, before to accept yours for me."), this manga would have ended 12 chapters ago.
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Old 2012-03-19, 16:36   Link #6726
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I think that Ryuutai's criticism of Ayumi is probably a knee-jerk reaction to peoples criticism of Chihiro.
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Old 2012-03-19, 19:12   Link #6727
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Originally Posted by Ryuutai View Post
She went there because she wanted it, and she isn't forced by him to follow him.
If I was Ayumi, simply I would have told him "Katsuragi, sorry, but now our meeting ends here. Before, I need to speak with Chihiro. You know, she's my best friend, and I want to be honest with her about my feelings, before to accept yours for me."

This is the kind of behaviour that I would have had, as friend.
Are you telling me she didn't already do this? Are you forgetting that Ayumi saw Keima reject Chihiro, then afterwards promptly rejected him and hit him when he started moving onto her?

She has been aware of Chihiro's feelings, and she did reject Keima because of it... pretty harshly, in fact. It was Chihiro who told her to go for it and don't mind her.

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Since she can't resist, she must only be honest. Chihiro hasn't only been dumped by the guy she liked, who basically played with her heart, but she also just found out that her best friend was in a relationship with him, but she was hidding it to her. She got a double body blow in few hours.
No, both of them are aware they both have a thing for Keima. The only thing Ayumi has been hiding is the time she kissed him during Keima's first capture. That's what this entire freaking arc has been about. Keima isn't in a relationship with anyone. He never has.
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Old 2012-03-20, 03:20   Link #6728
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I wonder if they'd be better off having Chihiro hide at Tenri/Diana's house
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Old 2012-03-20, 14:57   Link #6729
Ryuutai
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Originally Posted by Solafighter View Post
... Or short, Ayumi is in love. Doesnt want to destroy the friendship with Chihiro.
Also Chihiro is in love. And she has been very hurt by Keima. But some people can't understand her circumstances and accept the fact it's normal that a person, in her condition, can act irrationally, being confused, not trust anyone anymore...

Quote:
If it would be so easy, as Ryuutai said ("Katsuragi, sorry, but now our meeting ends here. Before, I need to speak with Chihiro. You know, she's my best friend, and I want to be honest with her about my feelings, before to accept yours for me."), this manga would have ended 12 chapters ago.
That one was the most natural sentence I would have told.

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I think that Ryuutai's criticism of Ayumi is probably a knee-jerk reaction to peoples criticism of Chihiro.
I always thought that Ayumi's behaviour towards Chihiro was wrong since the sick event.

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Are you telling me she didn't already do this? Are you forgetting that Ayumi saw Keima reject Chihiro, then afterwards promptly rejected him and hit him when he started moving onto her?
No, she didn't do what I told. I didn't tell that she should reject Keima, what I'm saying is that she should talk to Chihiro, tell her that she was in Keima's room when she heard her confession, tell her that she had tried to root for her but she couldn't because she is in love with him as well, tell her that she saw Keima dumping her because she was spying on their date, tell her that she had kissed Keima time ago...Tell her everything.

She should simply apologize to Chihiro for not being honest, even if her intention was to make her happy.

You are missing an important plot point here.

I'm not bashing Ayumi because I like trolling: in fact, also Ayumi knows that her behaviour has been wrong so far, or did you miss that? I'm sure enough that even if Keima kissed her, she couldn't get the wings, because of her sense of guilt.
It's the same reason why Diana can't get her wings: her sense of guilt towards Tenri is the obstacle.

Quote:
She has been aware of Chihiro's feelings, and she did reject Keima because of it... pretty harshly, in fact. It was Chihiro who told her to go for it and don't mind her.
Chihiro didn't tell her to go for it, in the scene in the bathroom at the festival.
But I'm sure she would have told that, if Ayumi, in that moment, had admitted her feelings for Keima.

You are not getting my point at all.
You think that I'm saying that Ayumi should reject Keima for Chihiro.
No, I'm saying only that, at least now, it's the moment for her to be honest. But also at Miyako's home, she lied.
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Old 2012-03-20, 15:40   Link #6730
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Lets make this simple while I don't agree to a lot of what was sad the bottomline here for me is start is things could be that simple this manga would not be as interesting as it is. I'm sure that we were expecting some form of drama between Chihiro and Ayumi ever since we have seen them being such good friends and Keima's closeness to damn due to Elsie presence (Who I sincerely miss).

Things can't be that simple in manga's and personally I find it hard to believe that being perfectly honest is that simple even in real life. Somethings are better kept secret. TBF Ayumi has been trying her best, having Keima ask for her help in dating Chihiro while she likes him is a terrible blow to her she has had it rough. (She was not spying it was a coincidence) Chihiro up to this point has been rarely put in between who she likes and her best friend and in that situation I can see why what she does seems irrational. People are easily blinded in situations where love is involved.
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Old 2012-03-20, 16:03   Link #6731
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Lets make this simple while I don't agree to a lot of what was sad the bottomline here for me is start is things could be that simple this manga would not be as interesting as it is. I'm sure that we were expecting some form of drama between Chihiro and Ayumi ever since we have seen them being such good friends and Keima's closeness to damn due to Elsie presence (Who I sincerely miss).

Things can't be that simple in manga's and personally I find it hard to believe that being perfectly honest is that simple even in real life. Somethings are better kept secret. TBF Ayumi has been trying her best, having Keima ask for her help in dating Chihiro while she likes him is a terrible blow to her she has had it rough. (She was not spying it was a coincidence) Chihiro up to this point has been rarely put in between who she likes and her best friend and in that situation I can see why what she does seems irrational. People are easily blinded in situations where love is involved.

In fact, the manga is interesting exactly because the situation is that complicated.
My point was that also Ayumi's behaviour hasn't been very good, because of her conflicting emotions, but in general people with her are softer than with Chihiro...it's unfair. ^^" They can see Ayumi's pain, but not Chihiro's pain, even if they know how harsh Keima has been with her.

P.S. You are wrong, Ayumi went intentionally to the rooftop to see Chihiro and Keima. Mercury told her "Why did you go to see them"?
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Old 2012-03-20, 20:13   Link #6732
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No, she didn't do what I told. I didn't tell that she should reject Keima, what I'm saying is that she should talk to Chihiro, tell her that she was in Keima's room when she heard her confession, tell her that she had tried to root for her but she couldn't because she is in love with him as well, tell her that she saw Keima dumping her because she was spying on their date, tell her that she had kissed Keima time ago...Tell her everything.

She should simply apologize to Chihiro for not being honest, even if her intention was to make her happy.

You are missing an important plot point here.

I'm not bashing Ayumi because I like trolling: in fact, also Ayumi knows that her behaviour has been wrong so far, or did you miss that? I'm sure enough that even if Keima kissed her, she couldn't get the wings, because of her sense of guilt.
It's the same reason why Diana can't get her wings: her sense of guilt towards Tenri is the obstacle.



Chihiro didn't tell her to go for it, in the scene in the bathroom at the festival.
But I'm sure she would have told that, if Ayumi, in that moment, had admitted her feelings for Keima.

You are not getting my point at all.
You think that I'm saying that Ayumi should reject Keima for Chihiro.
No, I'm saying only that, at least now, it's the moment for her to be honest. But also at Miyako's home, she lied.
You are not getting my point either.

My point is that you claim Ayumi wasn't considerate of Chihiro's feelings. She was. Chihiro told her not to let that bother her.

You say that Ayumi is at fault for keeping secrets from Chihiro. My point is that you are holding a double standard. Let's not forget that Chihiro didn't tell Ayumi that she was eavesdropping either.
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Old 2012-03-21, 08:07   Link #6733
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You are not getting my point either.

My point is that you claim Ayumi wasn't considerate of Chihiro's feelings. She was. Chihiro told her not to let that bother her.
She was considerate for her feelings, but in the wrong way.
Also, Ayumi knows that Chihiro is still suffering, or do you think she is so naive to believe she is really ok? I think she knows that Chihiro is just pretending...she knew that this time, Chihiro's feelings were genuine. Ayumi herself thinks that she mistook, in fact, she was telling Chihiro that she wanted to leave the band exactly for that reason, because she wasn't rooting for her sincerely...finally, she was ready to tell the truth, and that one was the best choice, which would have made her feel very better...but at that point, Keima arrived and ruined everything with his idiotic galge logic. =__=
Later, after Ayumi met Keima, she seems have changed her mind again. In fact, at Miyako's home, she lied to Chihiro about her feelings again.
Quote:
You say that Ayumi is at fault for keeping secrets from Chihiro. My point is that you are holding a double standard. Let's not forget that Chihiro didn't tell Ayumi that she was eavesdropping either.
Eavesdropping what? The conversation between Haqua, Diana and Keima? The date between Ayumi and Keima?
We don't know what Chihiro will do yet. She could do something really wrong, I don't know it, but I can understand that she is still shocked and confused by everything just happened to her in few hours, exactly as I can understand the reasons why Ayumi hasn't the courage to be honest, even if lying isn't the best what to do, imho. So, calling Chihiro b*tch and sl*t all the time as some people are doing is only immature, they don't want to see and understand her circumstances just because they always hated her character. They can see Ayumi's pain, but they can't see Chihiro's pain.
I'm not holding a double standard, I can see the mistakes of all the characters. They musn't be perfect bidimensional dolls, and the more they mistake, the more they are human. I love Chihiro very much because she is imperfect and very realistic.
Some people don't want see Ayumi's mistakes, probably because they like to think that she is perfect (when the fact that she is showing some weakness makes her more interesting, in my opinion), or just because they actually think that lying is a good thing in situations like this. While the first reason is the typical one of your average fanboy, the second one reflects just a different personal point of view about life and friendship, that I can't share.
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Old 2012-03-21, 09:37   Link #6734
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She was considerate for her feelings, but in the wrong way.
Also, Ayumi knows that Chihiro is still suffering, or do you think she is so naive to believe she is really ok? I think she knows that Chihiro is just pretending...she knew that this time, Chihiro's feelings were genuine. Ayumi herself thinks that she mistook, in fact, she was telling Chihiro that she wanted to leave the band exactly for that reason, because she wasn't rooting for her sincerely...finally, she was ready to tell the truth, and that one was the best choice, which would have made her feel very better...but at that point, Keima arrived and ruined everything with his idiotic galge logic. =__=
Later, after Ayumi met Keima, she seems have changed her mind again. In fact, at Miyako's home, she lied to Chihiro about her feelings again.
So you do acknowledge that Ayumi was aware of Chihiro's feelings? Good.

And I see that your double standards still haven't changed. I find it funny how you pardon Chihiro's "Aah, you don't have to worry about it. I told you, right? It's got nothing to do with me anymore!"

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Eavesdropping what? The conversation between Haqua, Diana and Keima? The date between Ayumi and Keima?
We don't know what Chihiro will do yet. She could do something really wrong, I don't know it, but I can understand that she is still shocked and confused by everything just happened to her in few hours, exactly as I can understand the reasons why Ayumi hasn't the courage to be honest, even if lying isn't the best what to do, imho. So, calling Chihiro b*tch and sl*t all the time as some people are doing is only immature, they don't want to see and understand her circumstances just because they always hated her character. They can see Ayumi's pain, but they can't see Chihiro's pain.
I'm not holding a double standard, I can see the mistakes of all the characters. They musn't be perfect bidimensional dolls, and the more they mistake, the more they are human. I love Chihiro very much because she is imperfect and very realistic.
Some people don't want see Ayumi's mistakes, probably because they like to think that she is perfect (when the fact that she is showing some weakness makes her more interesting, in my opinion), or just because they actually think that lying is a good thing in situations like this. While the first reason is the typical one of your average fanboy, the second one reflects just a different personal point of view about life and friendship, that I can't share.
I thought you were refuting what I or someone else here said, but I guess not. It's my mistake for assuming you were talking to me, because I certainly never said that Ayumi was perfect. If you are referring to me, then all you're doing is setting up a straw man's argument.

They are both imperfect with their own character motivations. I find it odd that you pardon Chihiro for being imperfect, yet you chastise Ayumi for the same imperfections as if she has to be perfect. Why is only Ayumi under scrutiny for hiding things when Chihiro is guilty of the same thing?
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Old 2012-03-21, 09:52   Link #6735
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Wait? What? People are still discussing about this?
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Old 2012-03-21, 13:18   Link #6736
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Wait? What? People are still discussing about this?
Yeap.


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Originally Posted by BladeEntity View Post
Things can't be that simple in manga's and personally I find it hard to believe that being perfectly honest is that simple even in real life. Somethings are better kept secret. TBF Ayumi has been trying her best, having Keima ask for her help in dating Chihiro while she likes him is a terrible blow to her she has had it rough. (She was not spying it was a coincidence) Chihiro up to this point has been rarely put in between who she likes and her best friend and in that situation I can see why what she does seems irrational. People are easily blinded in situations where love is involved.
Exactly, what i meant.
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Old 2012-03-21, 15:10   Link #6737
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And I see that your double standards still haven't changed.
You are the one with double standards, not me.

Here there are tons of people who expressed their hate for Chihiro, without considering her emotional condition, and you told nothing in her favor. But you were immediately ready to bash me, the only person who expressed some negative opinions about Ayumi's actions.
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Old 2012-03-21, 15:25   Link #6738
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Chihiro has IMO is in the same boat as Ayumi hence their actions have become rather irrational and my have irked some people. However from Chihiro stand point I feel that why people are so affected by the recent chapter was how Wakaki Sensei drew her face when she called Keima a lying bastard it did at the feel of more malice, it is clear that she wanted to protect Ayumi from Keima who Chihiro thinks has bad intentions from what she has seen (probably because she does not understand the whole situation). From what I saw, Chihiro went out of her way to create the opportunity to warn Ayumi. To make matters worse it is hypocritical for Chihiro to lie to Keima then then call him a lying bastard. From here all I can say is since we do not know her motivations it is hard to judge if it was to protect Ayumi it is understandable. However if it is just to screw up Keima perhaps her emotional state is questionable

On the other as I have already stated to say the way Ayumi is being considerate is wrong unfair as there is no right or wrong in trying to be considerate, it's the thought that counts, and Ayumi has tried to be the faithful best friend and when that failed she tried to tell her the truth. There is no right or wrong perhaps there are better ways but showing an effort is all that matters. And on that count Ayumi has done enough IMHO, she is clearly not perfect but she tries her best. That's all that you can ask I real life even.
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Old 2012-03-21, 16:15   Link #6739
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Chihiro has IMO is in the same boat as Ayumi hence their actions have become rather irrational and my have irked some people. However from Chihiro stand point I feel that why people are so affected by the recent chapter was how Wakaki Sensei drew her face when she called Keima a lying bastard it did at the feel of more malice, it is clear that she wanted to protect Ayumi from Keima who Chihiro thinks has bad intentions from what she has seen (probably because she does not understand the whole situation). From what I saw, Chihiro went out of her way to create the opportunity to warn Ayumi. To make matters worse it is hypocritical for Chihiro to lie to Keima then then call him a lying bastard. From here all I can say is since we do not know her motivations it is hard to judge if it was to protect Ayumi it is understandable. However if it is just to screw up Keima perhaps her emotional state is questionable
Probably Chihiro is still very emotionally unstable, and she didn't trust Keima and Haqua. Keima is a liar to her, and he actually is a liar, even if for good reasons...We are the omniscient readers and know that he is really working to save the world, but Chihiro could think he is fighting with someone just for his personal interests.

Quote:
On the other as I have already stated to say the way Ayumi is being considerate is wrong unfair as there is no right or wrong in trying to be considerate, it's the thought that counts, and Ayumi has tried to be the faithful best friend and when that failed she tried to tell her the truth. There is no right or wrong perhaps there are better ways but showing an effort is all that matters. And on that count Ayumi has done enough IMHO, she is clearly not perfect but she tries her best. That's all that you can ask I real life even.
I can understand that being honest isn't very simple, but I'm sure I would never acted like Ayumi did. Anyway, she is just a teenager, she can mistake, and I won't say that she is a monster or something like this...Sorry, but I'm only very tired to see around the web people insulting Chihiro without considering her circumstances, while everyone can understand Ayumi's situation.

Blaming Chihiro for her gesture, regardless of the reason why she did that, calling her bi*ch, is really unfair, because it means forgetting that her heart is broken...When you are in deep pain, your mind doesn't work as when you are fine. Keima could apologize to her at least, it's not that difficult to say a simple "sorry". He destroyed her heart, and we know he was sorry for that, but Chihiro didn't see his depressed face while he was in the bath, she just knows he played with her feelings...But our hero is still very immature.
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Old 2012-03-21, 16:21   Link #6740
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Wait? What? People are still discussing about this?
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Yeap....
After all ... teh internetz is serious bizness and all that, eh?

Seriously though ... something tells me that the next few chapters should bring some kind of resolution to the current "tenseness" - both between Chihiro, Keima and Ayumi and in the manga in general. I am actually looking forward to the mangaka resolving the situation he has "whipped up" here.
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