[Anime] Umineko - Spoilers & Expectations (for experienced VN readers only)

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

So if the anime neglects to mention it by the start of the second game is it free time to mention it? The problem is we don't know when they plan on putting it. You have two problems regarding the current failure to reveal this important (though misused) aspect of logical argument:

1. If we tell the viewers about it now, not knowing if the series will reveal it now or later, it'll come out as inadvertedly emphasized and possibly spoil them.

2. If they chose not to reveal it and we end up telling the viewers about it much later, this bit of information comes out too late to properly help them at the point where they have their own large sets of conjectures.

Honestly? Just let them do their own thing.

Info that isn't in the anime, even if it occurs at points where it shouldn't be a spoiler anymore since it should have already happened, should stay OUT of the first-time viewers thread, no matter what it is, at least as far as we're concerned.

If they want info, they'll find it. As it is, they seem to be doing fine even with the information they've obtained being stripped to the bone.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well nobody made conjectures about the devil's proof before the game between Beatrice and Battler started. I don't think it's a problem.

What I can foresee is that Beatrice in the anime will use the devil's proof argument without explaining it in detail. At that point we can tell them what it is exactly.

As for the goats and goldsmith, they aren't really important.

The main problem I see is with Asumu being Battler's real mother, and the existence of Ange.

If the Anime doesn't tell this already the first appearance on Ange would be quite a WTF. And what about ep4 revelation?

Spoiler for Ep4:

So Battler's is not Asumu's son... who the hell is Asumu?

Sorry I do not want to be mean, I just want to tell you, that we shouldn't go ahead and just assume that anime viewers will be unable to put things together, just because they are not explicitly stated in the anime.

Well regarding the Devil's Proof, I think every person in their right mind is able to look that up in Wikipedia. There are even people who know that way of reasoning, jurist or philosophy students should know this term by heart...I learned it in 10th grade in philosophy class.
So a person feeling himself up to develop a theory on the scale of Umineko'ness should be able to understand or look up the system.

And regarding Asumu and Ange. The name of Asumu is already mentioned on the official anime site, she is clearly stated as Battler's mother, so every Japanese fan with access to the internet (i.e. everyone) is ABLE to look that up.
Ange's name is not yet revealed, but there is also an unnamed 子 (child) of Rudolph and Kyrie on the site, so everybody CAN also know that Battler has a sister.
If we were nice and would want to give the anime viewers who don't know any Japanese the same advantages as the Japanese viewers, we should just translate the family system from the official page.
I would volunteer to translate the bio's of the characters, too, but I've got enough exam's and job-stuff for 2 people, so that would have to wait until at least 4 weeks from now.

[Christen]

Hmn, I think I overlooked this part but, do you think the change in the witch's letter could have some impact? In the game, and the drama cd, the letter came from 「黄金のベアトリーチェ」 but in the anime, Maria read 「黄金の魔女ベアトリーチェ」. It might be just be a simple change, but I can't help but think there's reason why the letter was originally signed as "Beatrice the Golden" instead of "Beatrice the Golden Witch".

Oh well, if this was changed, maybe it isn't anything big.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Christen

Hmn, I think I overlooked this part but, do you think the change in the witch's letter could have some impact? In the game, and the drama cd, the letter came from 「黄金のベアトリーチェ」 but in the anime, Maria read 「黄金の魔女ベアトリーチェ」. It might be just be a simple change, but I can't help but think there's reason why the letter was originally signed as "Beatrice the Golden" instead of "Beatrice the Golden Witch".

Oh well, if this was changed, maybe it isn't anything big.

Depends on whether or not

Spoiler for Episode 3:

the signature of "The Golden Witch Beatrice" in the Episode 3 letter indicates that it was written by a different person than the alchemy counselor letter.

I can't find the quote, but didn't Ryukishi say something about VN readers being "surprised" by the anime? Between this and the servants having different alibis for the umbrella incident (specifically, Shannon and Gohda being together), I wonder if we're going to see more significant divergences in the future.

[Christen]

He did, but I'm not sure what episode we're supposed to see that surprise.

[nagare]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Depends on whether or not
I can't find the quote, but didn't Ryukishi say something about VN readers being "surprised" by the anime?

Are you talking about his blog entry (#504)?
In the middle of entry he wrote:

多分、アニメ放映前に、何らかの媒体でプレビューが出ると思いますので、ぜひ聞いてみて下さい 。
本ッ当にびっくりしますから！

Basically that blog post said, he went to see the cast rehearse the script.
He was surprised by the quality of the cast especially the people doing the adults. That line I quoted basically says, probably before the anime airs there will be some type of preview over some medium, so listen to it: "You'll be very surprised!"

[maximilianjenus]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Depends on whether or not

Spoiler for Episode 3:

the signature of "The Golden Witch Beatrice" in the Episode 3 letter indicates that it was written by a different person than the alchemy counselor letter.

I can't find the quote, but didn't Ryukishi say something about VN readers being "surprised" by the anime? Between this and the servants having different alibis for the umbrella incident (specifically, Shannon and Gohda being together), I wonder if we're going to see more significant divergences in the future.

aww, the alst post ruins my theory, but here it is anyway.

What if the changes in the anime are actually suggested by ryukishi ? Let's say that Kanon had X alibi for a crime in the VN, but now in the anime ryukishi gives Kanon a Y alibi instead.

Spoiler for spoiler for third twilight Episode 1:

Let's say that now the person runing behind Kanon when he goes to the boiler room is not kumasawa, but Genji.

[rogerpepitone]

Not only is the signature on the ep 3, first twilight letter different, the whole tone of the letter is different. There is nothing in the original that threatens death, and a few points against that ("if you want to escape with your fortunes intact", "I will return all interest"). That suggests that the person who wrote it hadn't seen the original letter.

[Christen]

Originally Posted by nagare

Are you talking about his blog entry (#504)?
In the middle of entry he wrote:


Basically that blog post said, he went to see the cast rehearse the script.
He was surprised by the quality of the cast especially the people doing the adults. That line I quoted basically says, probably before the anime airs there will be some type of preview over some medium, so listen to it: "You'll be very surprised!"

In this case, it might be the navigation drama cd? Well, that media indeed had me surprised with its quality.

[Christen]

All the talk about weapons in the first-time speculations thread makes me wanna shout

A weapon X could have been used to kill the 6 people in the first twilight. This weapon can be used without creating a noise loud enough to wake people up. As of the Devil's Proof, I refuse to explain how such a weapon works.

But I can't do that

[unconfirmed]

Originally Posted by Christen

All the talk about weapons in the first-time speculations thread makes me wanna shout

A weapon X could have been used to kill the 6 people in the first twilight. This weapon can be used without creating a noise loud enough to wake people up. As of the Devil's Proof, I refuse to explain how such a weapon works.

But I can't do that

And if you did that, I'd be tempted to do this

Spoiler for counter:

[June 1983]

Ha ha! I keep wanting to say things about Devil's Proof in that thread, too! Oh dear ... Beato would mop the floor with them ...

I'm stuck in Purgatorio right now, I can't really properly participate in this thread because I'm still in the middle of Episode 3. But I keep looking anyway, heh.

[Archer]

Just give them time. Beato would mop the floor with them soon enough. I don't think the first twilight is enough, but the second should be a good stumbling block.

[Marion]

2nd twilight is the very first close room murder. And the 4/5th twilight only questions the trust in the others.

Anyways, I'm sure that 1-3 would probably end on Kanon's death, unless they hold it for the 4th episode.

[June 1983]

I was thinking they might end it just with them finding Kinzo's body in the boiler (and then Kanon technically dies in the beginning of 1-4), because it feels like that's a discovery that really needs to fall at the end of an episode, as it's pretty shocking.. I don't know how much they would have to rush it to get that far though.

- You need to have enough time for some discussion in the parlor, particularly between Eva and Battler.

- Natsuhi and the shotgun.

- The discovery that Kinzo is missing.

- Some conversation between Eva and Hideyoshi in their room.

- Discovery of Eva and Hideyoshi's bodies.

- Smelling something bad, Kanon and Kumasawa investigating.

- Kanon vs. the witch

Yeah, thinking about it like that, I can't imagine they can fit all of that into one episode. With the previous episodes it was different, but now we're getting into the meat of the plot, so there's going to be a lot less they can skim through.

[Marion]

There's also Battler's talk with Kanon, Genji and Kumasawa but they might skip it. I think that comes after the receipt fight :U

Also I just posted a little extra info on Nanjo in the first-timer thread. Nothing much other than a little clarity on his position, but I wonder if it was too spoilerish to say how he's been telling them that Kinzo is dying in 3 months for the past couple years :/ That or whether it was needed.

[June 1983]

Oh dude, I forgot about the receipt fight, too. And that will definitely be in there, since they explicitly included Eva pausing and looking back at the study door after Natsuhi leaves ....

edit: Okay, here's how I think they might split it up --

1-3 takes us to the discovery of Eva and Hideyoshi's bodies

1-4 covers Kanon's death and the discovery of Kinzo's body, taking shelter in Kinzo's study, and the appearance of the new letter from Beatrice, probably ending on a cliffhanger with Kumasawa, Genji, Nanjo, and Maria being kicked out

Leaving the last episode to deal with Battler learning the meaning of the symbol in the last letter, the phone call, the discovery of the final three twilights, and the resurrection of Beatrice.

I really hope that there are some tea party scenes in 2-1. Well, there has to be ... I think ....

[Marion]

Originally Posted by June 1983

Oh dude, I forgot about the receipt fight, too. And that will definitely be in there, since they explicitly included Eva pausing and looking back at the study door after Natsuhi leaves ....

Here's hoping for nighteyes in that scene! Or at least a nice rearrangement of it.

[Christen]

Sayaka said Beatrice will be appearing in Ep I-V, so I'm guessing it might be half climax, half tea party. Another important part would be Eva accusing Natsuhi of killing Kinzo because of her receipt theory. There was already foreshadowing in episode I-II.

Personally, I'll divide it this way:

Episode I-III (first half)
George mourns for Shannon (possibly omitted and merged to next scene due to previous episode). Everyone goes back to the parlor, discovers the blood in the dining hall, and Maria shows her familiarity with magic circles (potentially longest scene?).

Episode I-III (second half)
Eva and Battler talk (can be extremely shortened to less than a minute if not omitted). They find out Kinzo is missing, then Natsuhi's shotgun. Eva and Natsuhi confrontation (this can be shortened easily). Hideyoshi and Eva goes back to their rooms. We get a scene from those two. Genji and Kanon checks on the two people and finds the letter.
Genji tells Kanon to go fetch Kumasawa. They find the new magic circle (potential episode cut). Kanon breaks in, finds both corpses and everyone else comes. I wonder when we'll get a full version of Golden Slaughterer if they cut it here.

Episode I-IV (first half)
Everyone notices the smell and Kanon and Kumasawa hears the bang at the Boiler Room. Kanon does his speech, gets stabbed, and Battler and Natsuhi comes. Battler exits the door outside, and people go back to the parlor. They decide to lock themselves in Kinzo's study. Genji tells about Kinzo's deceased love. Battler reads the epitaph and realizes it's connection to the murders.

Episode I-IV (second half)
Natsuhi, George, and Jessica, checks it. Maria points out a new letter has appeared. Natsuhi accuses four people as suspects and demands them to leave the room. Later, Battler wonders if they did the right thing. He finds out what the magic circle meant, and the phone rings. They hear Maria's singing voice in the distance.

Episode I-V (first half)
They decide to go to Maria. They find out the blood-stained parlor and confront Maria. The children realize Natsuhi is missing. Natsuhi confronts the "witch". When they break out of the parlor, a gunshot is heard. They discover Natsuhi's body, and Maria runs up to the witch. The clock hits 24:00. We are then given a short summary of what happened. It's possible Bern will be narrating this like in the Drama CD.

Episode I-V (second half)
We see the ending song, but a little too early? After the ending song, the children along with two servants seem to be having fun in the Golden Land save for Battler. Battler denies the witch, and Beatrice appears. She kills Eva and Hideyoshi again, and proceeds to kill everyone else. Battler declares Beatrice as his enemy.

[k//eternal]

There's absolutely no way they'll cut the ???? out, because Higurashi fans need to see Bern.