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Old 2018-05-13, 21:51   Link #3001
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
Well the idea here is "stop using "artificial" things and do it in the "old way" otherwise they will be just doing the "same thing as the adults then that is not a option for them if they really want to "change" the world to go back to where it was in the beginner.
.
Spoiler for Another title:
So...it could be a possibility in this title. They can jump-start the old way and continue the natural way. Garden prob has enough genetic material in a bank that they were using to create those pilots.

Garden just teaches them other stuff as they grow up. Back up the new population when they get into trouble. They don't need to not use their technology, just repurpose it.
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Old 2018-05-13, 22:22   Link #3002
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Your “Trump-Jong-Un” comparison is so simplistic and lack depth that it crumbles the moment we get into simple details and context. Kim killing the President of the US in cold blood will bring more immediate harm than good no NK on so many levels because US and NK are not the only big factions on Earth (and the US has more allies). Even Kim is smart enough not to do that and Trump knows it. So, the possibility of attempted brutal killing/assassination from NK-side when the world is watching is already out of the question. After that, all the POTUS need is to bring sufficient Secret Service security to protect himself from third-party threats.

Now, compare that to Franxx: the APEs have no such luxury of guaranteed "goodwill" from Klax-Hime. Not in this post-apocalyptic setting where the Klaxo-side still have a large advantage of power to retaliate (do you remember those titanic hand that easily crushed the plants?). That fact alone should make the APEs be a lot more careful than Trump in your comparison. So yeah, APEs going in fully armed sounds like the better option unless they don’t care about their own lives (which is unlikely given how the tall APE-dude was scared and begging for his life before getting decapitated).
i used it as a exemple of many in history of leaders going to enemie places without a ultra safe guard" because "politics" still exist even from ancient times, not every ruler was a ruttler murderer to take a chance to kill the enemie leader in any "meet" and as i told before the anime showed some clues which that not was "the first time" they talked with her who lead to believe which it not was really needed to come fully armed.

My point is which this is not "something utler idiot cliche which only you see in animes" or whatever you want to say, it something which "happen in real life". this is how diplomacy and politics are made, ofcourse the problem here was they being idiots in going to her place to threat her, they get what they asked, but what they did is not something you not see others series even the series which you love to claim master piece must had did too at one point even if ofscreen, because again it's politics in the end,it's not something abnormal and they are the "only idiots cliche peoples to do that, if peoples in real life did that(the part to go unarmed to face enemy) and they "survived and it worked or not but they lived to tell the tail them it means which is something you can "expectate them to do.

following your logic every time a king, president, leader, monarch, dictator, goes to a "enemy" place try to negotiate surrender" he was a total idiot and probably died for this which not was true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Spoiler for Another title:
So...it could be a possibility in this title. They can jump-start the old way and continue the natural way. Garden prob has enough genetic material in a bank that they were using to create those pilots.

Garden just teaches them other stuff as they grow up. Back up the new population when they get into trouble. They don't need to not use their technology, just repurpose it.
hmmm srry but i'm thinking which maybe i'm start to loosing the focus of what i was saying.

To be clear i was saying which in order to repopulate the world, they can't do it with "less than" 10 couples(not just because the ammount of babies they can make), even if they use machines as artificial uteri and can have like 100 babies will gona still be 10 peoples to take care of 100 babies what can be worst(provide food to that many of peoples) and even with that it can't prevent inbreed issues to happen and. the problem is not just "bearing a kid the issue, but genetic problems and how to "deal with them after they are born, that is why is much more easy to have like 100 couples(200 peoples alive) taking care of like let's say 200 babies/kids tham let's say 1 or 5 couples having to take care of that same 200 kids made in tubes and the genetic issue really become a great issue.

i'm talking abour the "proportion" of peoples able to bear and "take care of the childrens" for the amount of childrens.
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Old 2018-05-13, 22:36   Link #3003
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
Spoiler for saving space:
following your logic every time a king, president, leader, monarch, dictator, goes to a "enemy" place try to negotiate surrender" he was a total idiot and probably died for this which not was true.
Context and details matter in each case. You can't even generalize two cases that happen in the same period, let alone generalize them all like what you did above. In this particular case, the APEs are idiots. There's no getting around it.
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Old 2018-05-13, 22:39   Link #3004
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Context and details matter in each case. You can't even generalize two cases that happen in the same period, let alone generalize them all like what you did above. In this case, the APEs are idiots. There's no getting around it.
yeah they where idiots i totally agree but the point is which what they did was nothing something which you could not see others doing aswell since it is one way to try to proof which they are trying to use "diplomacy to negociate surrender" it just failed in a uter terrific way due to they own idiocity.

Going "unarmed or not enough armed" to a atempty of negotiate surrender" is not a abnormal or idiotic action since many peoples did it and it worked, they just did something "normal", what they did later was the problem.
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Old 2018-05-13, 22:46   Link #3005
Daft
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Does it even matter if those two APE council members die? Yes, the one that apparently had a biological body got scared when she started talking to him directly to his brain but they already established that they upload the adults' minds to some kind of server before they blew up the plantations. They'll probably be back with new bodies immediately anyways.
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Old 2018-05-13, 23:22   Link #3006
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by Daft View Post
Does it even matter if those two APE council members die? Yes, the one that apparently had a biological body got scared when she started talking to him directly to his brain but they already established that they upload the adults' minds to some kind of server before they blew up the plantations. They'll probably be back with new bodies immediately anyways.
yeah, it really don't matter, the "alive concil member" can be just upload again and it was a natural reaction, remember when one of them talked about the lost of many plantations like regreting it and the other saying "no" which it was fine(probably another machine), because all they need is just replace them by new ones, everyone is expendable at this point as long they can "upload them again, giving a sort of "imortality", but this don't means which they gonna still be scared of die.
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Old 2018-05-14, 00:37   Link #3007
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
Going "unarmed or not enough armed" to a atempty of negotiate surrender" is not a abnormal or idiotic action since many peoples did it and it worked, they just did something "normal", what they did later was the problem.
I'll indulge your comparison with “normal people” for a bit: did the APEs even send an appointment to Klax-Hime for a meeting beforehand, or at least bring a white flag (or its equivalence) with them before entering her chamber? Because that’s how normal factions do it in the real world before even having a conversation about terms of surrender with their enemy closely. If those APEs didn’t do that, that will only double their idiocy. I don't see any appointment & white flags in the episode. Instead, there are a bunch of APE security guys pointing a gun at Klax-Hime right when they entered the chamber IIRC. So, we can do the math.

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Originally Posted by Daft View Post
Does it even matter if those two APE council members die? Yes, the one that apparently had a biological body got scared when she started talking to him directly to his brain but they already established that they upload the adults' minds to some kind of server before they blew up the plantations. They'll probably be back with new bodies immediately anyways.
I guess we'll see. Will those empty chairs at the conference room got filled again after this episode or remain empty.
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Old 2018-05-14, 00:48   Link #3008
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I'll indulge your comparison with “normal people” for a bit: did the APEs even send an appointment to Klax-Hime for a meeting beforehand, or at least bring a white flag (or its equivalence) with them before entering her chamber? Because that’s how normal factions do it in the real world before even having a conversation about terms of surrender with their enemy closely. If those APEs didn’t do that, that will only double their idiocy. I don't see any appointment & white flags in the episode. Instead, there are a bunch of APE security guys pointing a gun at Klax-Hime right when they entered the chamber IIRC. So, we can do the math.

I guess we'll see. Will those empty chairs at the conference room got filled again after this episode or remain empty.
watch back the episode where they won over the building, they told which they will send a team to talk with "you know who" (the queen), she was waiting for them because it not was a "suprise come" we don't know what happened "behind the scenes" or ofscreen to know if they send or not but based on they actions they must had sent otherwise could really be very stupid send a team totally uninvited to the nest as as i told she could had sended the klaxx to kill them as soon as they started to enter in the nest.

i will give you the most "close comparation 300 spartan, xerxes in the beginner send a messenger to leonidas which did the same threatned spartan and leonidas to surrender or they town will be crushed, well leonidas was much more reckless tham the princess and don't even waited the guy try to attack him and throwed the guy in the pit, send the guy was a idiotic act??? maybe but was something common to do and probably based on how leonidas was waiting for the guy he was warned in advise but it don't appear on screen.
You are automatically asuming without any base which they action of send that group was totally idiot and something they where not supposed to do because "no one could had did that( something really biased).
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Old 2018-05-14, 00:59   Link #3009
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Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
watch back the episode where they won over the building, they told which they will send a team to talk with "you know who" (the queen),
Is it confirmed that the said "team" is not the one that we saw in this episode? I'm pretty sure the slaughtered APEs in this episode is the "team" that they mentioned. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

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she was waiting for them because it not was a "suprise come" we don't know what happened "behind the scenes" or ofscreen to know if they send or not but based on they actions they must had sent otherwise could really be very stupid send a team totally uninvited to the nest as as i told she could had sended the klaxx to kill them as soon as they started to enter in the nest.
You don't know that. There's also a strong possibility that the Hime is just that strong to the point where she can remain calm in front of an unexpected visit by the APEs, and the episode surely portrait her strength that way.

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You are automatically asuming without any base which they action of send that group was totally idiot and something they where not supposed to do because "no one could had did that( something really biased).
Sending a group to have a negotiation with an enemy is not idiotic. The lack of precaution & preparation is idiotic no matter how you slice it. They have a goddamn Strelizia and other Franxxes. They should use them to put pressure to Klax-Hime if all the APEs wanted to do was arrogantly talk shit to her and force her to surrender anyway.
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Old 2018-05-14, 01:10   Link #3010
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Is it confirmed that the said "team" is not the one that we saw in this episode? I'm pretty sure the slaughtered APEs in this episode is the "team" that they mentioned. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

You don't know that. There's also a strong possibility that the Hime is just that strong to the point where she can remain calm in front of an unexpected visit by the APEs, and the episode surely portrait her strength that way.

Sending a group to have a negotiation with an enemy is not idiotic. The lack of precaution & preparation is idiotic no matter how you slice it. They have a goddamn Strelizia and other Franxxes. They should use them to put pressure to Klax-Hime if all the APEs wanted to do was arrogantly talk shit to her and force her to surrender anyway.
that is my point we don't know what they did before send the group, if they had or not contacted her to "claim it idiot" as you are paint, we just don't know them without it you can't call it idiot because this is a "common action to do in wars" simple like that, otherwise like most of the times let's just disagree.
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Old 2018-05-14, 01:45   Link #3011
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that is my point we don't know what they did before send the group, if they had or not contacted her to "claim it idiot" as you are paint, we just don't know them without it you can't call it idiot because this is a "common action to do in wars" simple like that, otherwise like most of the times let's just disagree.
Eh, my argument is based on what the episode showed me, so yes, I can call it idiotic until proven otherwise.
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Old 2018-05-14, 02:29   Link #3012
Blueknight78
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Eh, my argument is based on what the episode showed me, so yes, I can call it idiotic until proven otherwise.
and it can go on that way my argument was based on what was showed so yes i can say no to your argument until proven otherwise, then let's just disagree.
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Old 2018-05-14, 03:11   Link #3013
Gan_HOPE326
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IMHO the essence of it was:

- APE thinks after conquering Grand Crevasse they now have the upper hand in power and the Klaxos are at the ropes. We don't know all the details of why they think so, they may be right or too arrogant;
- APE thought that Klaxo-hime would be a rational agent, and therefore accept the terms of defeat when they were the least bad option she had left.

They were wrong in one of those things. Either Klaxo-hime is rational, but they don't really have as much of an advantage as they think they do, or Klaxo-hime doesn't give a fuck and would rather die for her pride than admit defeat. So yeah, they probably were idiots because they didn't account for all possibilities, but mostly their mistake was being overconfident. It may play in the dichotomy between APE as the rational, emotionless side of humanity and Klaxosaurs as the more instinct driven one.
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Old 2018-05-14, 03:39   Link #3014
kari-no-sugata II
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^ My impression is that everyone on the APE council are somewhat detached from reality - ie they've overconfident and arrogant and are too used to things going their way. I think the Nines are similar - I dunno what the details about them are but they seem a bit too loyal for their own good can only see things from Papa's perspective. Maybe another way to put it is that they (APE + Nines) seem to believe in their own propaganda and are blind to other perspectives.

I might be wrong of course. This is all subjective and open to argument for now. But based on the small hints we've seen and the likely narrative flow of the story, I think this is more than likely.
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Old 2018-05-14, 03:56   Link #3015
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
They were wrong in one of those things. Either Klaxo-hime is rational, but they don't really have as much of an advantage as they think they do, or Klaxo-hime doesn't give a fuck and would rather die for her pride than admit defeat. So yeah, they probably were idiots because they didn't account for all possibilities, but mostly their mistake was being overconfident. It may play in the dichotomy between APE as the rational, emotionless side of humanity and Klaxosaurs as the more instinct driven one.
Thank you. Their arrogance and overconfidence is pretty much the source of their idiocy.

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and it can go on that way my argument was based on what was showed so yes i can say no to your argument until proven otherwise, then let's just disagree.
Your argument relied too much on the so-called "off-screen events". While I take what's depicted on-screen.

For example:
  • Previous episode said that Papa will send a team to talk to Klax-Hime. In this episode, we see an APE team that talks to Klax-Hime. The implication is obvious that the team in this episode is the team that Papa said will send in previous episode. In many occasions, the simplest answer is the right one especially for something as trivial as this (it's not even a mystery, so there's no need for a twist). My argument is right there in the show on-screen for all to see.
  • Your argument, on the other hand, is hanging on the "what if" scenario where APEs already contacted the Hime off-screen before this team went to her lair in this episode in which there is no strong indication of that aside from your headcanon (so far).

My argument has more support from the show itself until proven otherwise in future episodes. Yours have less support so far. It's that simple. If future episodes proves me wrong, I'll happily be the first person to admit it.

EDIT: I will also welcome constructive criticism. If there are things that I missed from previous episodes, feel free to point it out to me here
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Old 2018-05-14, 07:18   Link #3016
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
They were wrong in one of those things. Either Klaxo-hime is rational, but they don't really have as much of an advantage as they think they do, or Klaxo-hime doesn't give a fuck and would rather die for her pride than admit defeat.
I agree, but it may not be as petty as pride that would make her consider submission to APE as a fate worse than death.
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Old 2018-05-14, 09:04   Link #3017
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Yeah well generally going to the enemy leader and demanding total unconditional surrender tends to end poorly for such messengers.
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Old 2018-05-14, 09:43   Link #3018
SeijiSensei
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Wonder what the girls think is happening when they menstruate, just like I wondered about what the boys thought was the reason for having wet dreams. What stories did Nana and Hachi tell them about these events? That the show skirts these issues probably makes it less of a target for censors, but the fact that the actual physical aspects of maturation are never addressed adds a sense of unreality to this aspect of the story.

So Zero Two cannot reproduce? Does she have the equipment, but it doesn't function? Certainly her "secondary sex characteristics" are pretty prominent. Why, other than fanservice, does she need breasts at all?

Are Hiro and Zero Two now living together, or does he go back to his room each night? Their relationship still seems at the kissing and hugging stage.

In the ED it appears that Ikuno and Ichigo are kissing, though whether its mutual is impossible to tell. Ikuno seems more adrift with each new revelation about gender and reproduction.

Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2018-05-14 at 09:56.
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Old 2018-05-14, 10:10   Link #3019
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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In the ED it appears that Ikuno and Ichigo are kissing, though whether its mutual is impossible to tell. Ikuno seems more adrift with each new revelation about gender and reproduction.
Sensei, other than a sense of friendship with others, what do you think triggered Ikuno to slap blondie when he talks about how annoying different genders are? I mean, given her sexual orientation, you'd think she'd agree with the "one gender"-option since different genders pretty much closed her chances with Ichigo since she's a hetero.
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Old 2018-05-14, 11:20   Link #3020
Gan_HOPE326
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Sensei, other than a sense of friendship with others, what do you think triggered Ikuno to slap blondie when he talks about how annoying different genders are? I mean, given her sexual orientation, you'd think she'd agree with the "one gender"-option since different genders pretty much closed her chances with Ichigo since she's a hetero.
One possibility would be that she's not just a lesbian, she's trans, and wishes to be a boy - in which case, she'd find it annoying that someone dismisses so nonchalantly something that is a great source of pain for her. It seems a weird direction for the show to go though, since the only thing we've seen that points at her as not straight is "likes Ichigo", we were never shown her being uncomfortable with her body or anything (but wanting to ride as a stamen could be interpreted as that).

Another possibility is that she still thinks that this suffering is simply another side of the same coin, aka without all the "gender" stuff she wouldn't have either the suffering NOR the love - after all, Nine Alpha doesn't seem too much into romantic love either. It was another reason why the translation left me perplexed. If we interpreted the discussion as "all this love and sex stuff is a pain" then her reaction makes much more sense, as to her her feelings of attraction towards Ichigo may be important, regardless of whether she can have them be reciprocated or not.
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