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Old 2018-05-14, 11:31   Link #3021
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
One possibility would be that she's not just a lesbian, she's trans, and wishes to be a boy - in which case, she'd find it annoying that someone dismisses so nonchalantly something that is a great source of pain for her. It seems a weird direction for the show to go though, since the only thing we've seen that points at her as not straight is "likes Ichigo", we were never shown her being uncomfortable with her body or anything (but wanting to ride as a stamen could be interpreted as that).

Another possibility is that she still thinks that this suffering is simply another side of the same coin, aka without all the "gender" stuff she wouldn't have either the suffering NOR the love - after all, Nine Alpha doesn't seem too much into romantic love either. It was another reason why the translation left me perplexed. If we interpreted the discussion as "all this love and sex stuff is a pain" then her reaction makes much more sense, as to her her feelings of attraction towards Ichigo may be important, regardless of whether she can have them be reciprocated or not.
other possibility which she just "dont mind" all thar crap one gender, she is not the rising flags type, not all gay are into the "no gender" moviment, some of them are fine which having male and female gender and as long they sexual preference is respected they are fine, she saw the guy insulting her friends, about something which she already told which she accepted them see the guy doing that pissed her off.
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Old 2018-05-14, 12:41   Link #3022
orion
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Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
i used it as a exemple of many in history of leaders going to enemie places without a ultra safe guard" because "politics" still exist even from ancient times, not every ruler was a ruttler murderer to take a chance to kill the enemie leader in any "meet" and as i told before the anime showed some clues which that not was "the first time" they talked with her who lead to believe which it not was really needed to come fully armed.

My point is which this is not "something utler idiot cliche which only you see in animes" or whatever you want to say, it something which "happen in real life". this is how diplomacy and politics are made, ofcourse the problem here was they being idiots in going to her place to threat her, they get what they asked, but what they did is not something you not see others series even the series which you love to claim master piece must had did too at one point even if ofscreen, because again it's politics in the end,it's not something abnormal and they are the "only idiots cliche peoples to do that, if peoples in real life did that(the part to go unarmed to face enemy) and they "survived and it worked or not but they lived to tell the tail them it means which is something you can "expectate them to do.

following your logic every time a king, president, leader, monarch, dictator, goes to a "enemy" place try to negotiate surrender" he was a total idiot and probably died for this which not was true.

hmmm srry but i'm thinking which maybe i'm start to loosing the focus of what i was saying.

To be clear i was saying which in order to repopulate the world, they can't do it with "less than" 10 couples(not just because the ammount of babies they can make), even if they use machines as artificial uteri and can have like 100 babies will gona still be 10 peoples to take care of 100 babies what can be worst(provide food to that many of peoples) and even with that it can't prevent inbreed issues to happen and. the problem is not just "bearing a kid the issue, but genetic problems and how to "deal with them after they are born, that is why is much more easy to have like 100 couples(200 peoples alive) taking care of like let's say 200 babies/kids tham let's say 1 or 5 couples having to take care of that same 200 kids made in tubes and the genetic issue really become a great issue.

i'm talking abour the "proportion" of peoples able to bear and "take care of the childrens" for the amount of childrens.

Actually, the number that the scientists came up with was 160 people.

If you looked at the pilots' situation, they were not 1:2 with caretakers either. However, they may want to suggest family planning by having the original caretakers to take of 2 or 3 kids to reinforce a policy to monitor population growth since they have few resources in the wild. Therefore, the number of kids in the original batch may depend on the number of eligible couples and who wants to attempt "natural" first.

You really wouldn't want to attempt natural first if you don't have the medical facilities to handle complications. Therefore, they should rely on the artificial uteri until they have proper medical facilities. Kokoro was an idiot in a way if she does become pregnant as she won't be receiving adequate medical care during emergencies or pregnancy complications.
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Old 2018-05-14, 12:46   Link #3023
Gan_HOPE326
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Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
other possibility which she just "dont mind" all thar crap one gender, she is not the rising flags type, not all gay are into the "no gender" moviment, some of them are fine which having male and female gender and as long they sexual preference is respected they are fine, she saw the guy insulting her friends, about something which she already told which she accepted them see the guy doing that pissed her off.
That's more or less what I meant in the second part, that her being gay doesn't mean she doesn't care about being a girl, in fact she considers it a big part of her identity, more than others perhaps. And anyway yeah, Alpha was being an asshole so she probably just wanted to slap that bitch .
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Old 2018-05-14, 16:04   Link #3024
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Being gay is being attracted to your own gender and not to the other. Seems like an important distinction. If there is no gender than what is gay then? Gender being a pain as Nine Alpha puts it is something that Ikuno feels more acutely than anyone else. But then those distinctions make her who she is.
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Old 2018-05-14, 16:11   Link #3025
orion
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Originally Posted by _Ninja_ View Post
Being gay is being attracted to your own gender and not to the other. Seems like an important distinction. If there is no gender than what is gay then? Gender being a pain as Nine Alpha puts it is something that Ikuno feels more acutely than anyone else. But then those distinctions make her who she is.
But why would having 2 genders be considered a pain in their time? The only restraints were imposed by their society. If the mecha could be made to be piloted regardless of gender, then the restraints would be gone.

In fact, reproduction was prohibited by their society so to manage the population. So in fact, the gender system would be a means to freedom.
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Old 2018-05-14, 16:34   Link #3026
Gan_HOPE326
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Originally Posted by _Ninja_ View Post
Being gay is being attracted to your own gender and not to the other. Seems like an important distinction. If there is no gender than what is gay then? Gender being a pain as Nine Alpha puts it is something that Ikuno feels more acutely than anyone else. But then those distinctions make her who she is.
This may be me, but I don't really get this. It's not like they can literally ditch their own sexes. That's how their bodies are made, and unless they are forcefully castrated by Papa's doctors that's that. Ikuno being gay doesn't make her attraction more gender-dependent than, say, Hiro's attraction to Zero Two. It's not clear why it should be her who feels that sting more deeply than the others.

Maybe the point is she's just the one who's more likely to aggressively express her own displeasure while the others were too disciplined/shocked to do anything.
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Old 2018-05-14, 16:41   Link #3027
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Wonder what the girls think is happening when they menstruate, just like I wondered about what the boys thought was the reason for having wet dreams. What stories did Nana and Hachi tell them about these events? That the show skirts these issues probably makes it less of a target for censors, but the fact that the actual physical aspects of maturation are never addressed adds a sense of unreality to this aspect of the story.
Maybe they just don't have that problem. They may be more different from us than outwardly visible, and their hormones tempered with to avoid all that. We know their puberty isn't normal, for example.

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But why would having 2 genders be considered a pain in their time? The only restraints were imposed by their society. If the mecha could be made to be piloted regardless of gender, then the restraints would be gone.
It's emotions they don't like. For... reasons. Libido is necessary to pilot the mechs, but considered inconvenient because of the emotions that go with it.
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Old 2018-05-14, 17:08   Link #3028
_Ninja_
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Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
This may be me, but I don't really get this. It's not like they can literally ditch their own sexes. That's how their bodies are made, and unless they are forcefully castrated by Papa's doctors that's that.
This is a real can of worms these days. Alpha's argument is that natural reproduction places people in distinct sex based roles. The less such roles there are the more blurry the line between what makes a man different from a woman. Notice how with the Nines you have a hard time telling if they are a boy or a girl in contrast to Kokoro who is clearly very feminine.


Quote:
Ikuno being gay doesn't make her attraction more gender-dependent than, say, Hiro's attraction to Zero Two. It's not clear why it should be her who feels that sting more deeply than the others.
It stings more because had she been a boy (provided she still likes who she likes) it would make things easier.
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Old 2018-05-14, 18:03   Link #3029
Gan_HOPE326
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Originally Posted by _Ninja_ View Post
This is a real can of worms these days. Alpha's argument is that natural reproduction places people in distinct sex based roles. The less such roles there are the more blurry the line between what makes a man different from a woman. Notice how with the Nines you have a hard time telling if they are a boy or a girl in contrast to Kokoro who is clearly very feminine.
Well, the Nines are also generally more emotionless. As I said already a couple pages ago, it seems the show is going the trite road of "THE THINGS THAT MAKE US HUMAN" that basically doesn't even question why or how they are important for our humanity, and whether in their absence we couldn't just find meaning in other things. As far as the crimes of APE or Dr. Franxx go, "abolishing the need for sexual reproduction" doesn't even factor in the top ten (actually forcing people not to have sex though is kind of a big deal).
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Old 2018-05-15, 01:03   Link #3030
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by Daft View Post
Does it even matter if those two APE council members die? Yes, the one that apparently had a biological body got scared when she started talking to him directly to his brain but they already established that they upload the adults' minds to some kind of server before they blew up the plantations. They'll probably be back with new bodies immediately anyways.
Did the APE guys even leave behind any physical corpse? There didn't seem to be anything at all beneath those robes/mask. Safe bet their bodies are all bots
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Old 2018-05-15, 01:24   Link #3031
Blueknight78
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Did the APE guys even leave behind any physical corpse? There didn't seem to be anything at all beneath those robes/mask. Safe bet their bodies are all bots
only the small one, the big one when killed you could see blood spiling fro his head or where he was hiting like the soldiers while the small one no was just a robot and even in the episode where one showed regreting the many deaths of the plantations and other saying to not care about it, this means which probably we have some "humans" mixed with some machines in the APE, probably the 'humans one or don't know or where also brainwashed by the machines to not know or care about it, but it's really looks like ape is mixed between humans and machines.
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Old 2018-05-15, 12:19   Link #3032
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Maybe they just don't have that problem. They may be more different from us than outwardly visible, and their hormones tempered with to avoid all that. We know their puberty isn't normal, for example.
I expected an answer along these lines, but that seems too much of a cop-out to me. As I said, I think avoidance of these issues has more to do with not annoying the audience or the censors.
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Old 2018-05-15, 15:10   Link #3033
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
Well, the Nines are also generally more emotionless. As I said already a couple pages ago, it seems the show is going the trite road of "THE THINGS THAT MAKE US HUMAN" that basically doesn't even question why or how they are important for our humanity, and whether in their absence we couldn't just find meaning in other things. As far as the crimes of APE or Dr. Franxx go, "abolishing the need for sexual reproduction" doesn't even factor in the top ten (actually forcing people not to have sex though is kind of a big deal).
Japan is pretty conservative so the kind of message shouldn't be a surprise. I'm 100% sure even 02 will be able to mate with Hiro at the end because the show just can't admit being in a romantic relationship with someone you can't reproduce with is a perfectly valid and human relationship.
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Old 2018-05-15, 16:55   Link #3034
Gan_HOPE326
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Japan is pretty conservative so the kind of message shouldn't be a surprise.
I don't really buy this argument. First, because it's not about being conservative or not, nor about Japan specifically - Western sci-fi has this trope a lot too. It's just easier/lazier writing to not try to flesh out better how it would be to exist as humans with different bodies or needs and just assume that our current condition is the best and anything beyond it is an abomination unto nature. It's not like it's a specifically right-wing thing either (look at how iffy many people on the left are about GMOs...). Second, because Japan being conservative on average doesn't preclude some individual artists from being radical. Just look at stuff like Shin Sekai Yori, or Revolutionary Girl Utena. Heck, even the Sanrio show about a heavy metal-loving panda, Aggretsuko, had some feminist overtones. Japan being traditionalist doesn't mean all anime has to be. Some is, some isn't, artists come in all sorts.
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Old 2018-05-15, 17:03   Link #3035
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
Some is, some isn't, artists come in all sorts.
It's like this is the first anime you watched. Those that goes against the norm (in general, not just on the matter of sexuality) are very few.

Anyway, this isn't surprising and you'll see my prediction about 02 became true before the show hits the end as well.
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Old 2018-05-15, 17:07   Link #3036
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
I don't really buy this argument. First, because it's not about being conservative or not, nor about Japan specifically - Western sci-fi has this trope a lot too. It's just easier/lazier writing to not try to flesh out better how it would be to exist as humans with different bodies or needs and just assume that our current condition is the best and anything beyond it is an abomination unto nature. It's not like it's a specifically right-wing thing either (look at how iffy many people on the left are about GMOs...). Second, because Japan being conservative on average doesn't preclude some individual artists from being radical. Just look at stuff like Shin Sekai Yori, or Revolutionary Girl Utena. Heck, even the Sanrio show about a heavy metal-loving panda, Aggretsuko, had some feminist overtones. Japan being traditionalist doesn't mean all anime has to be. Some is, some isn't, artists come in all sorts.
yeah japoneses are very traditiopnalist even they LGBT are totally different from western LGBT, they don't mind overal japan lifestyle aslong they can have a place, because japaneses average are peoples which don't like to make too much "loud" or to not look like troublesome annoying peoples they care a lot of "social image" unlike western where the moviments where made to be loud and annoying as they can.
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Old 2018-05-15, 17:12   Link #3037
Gan_HOPE326
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
It's like this is the first anime you watched. Those that goes against the norm (in general, not just about sexuality) are very few.

Anyway, this isn't surprising and you'll see my prediction about 02 became true before the show hits the end as well.
I don't think your prediction about 02 is off, but that's not a matter of conservative or not, it's just about it being feel good. It'd be pretty sad if she couldn't.

And there's different layers to it. For example Japan has on average a more modest culture regarding displays of affection, which is part of why we see so little sex or even kissing in anime. But I'd consider that more culture than politics. The thing that is being considered "political" about FranXX are its ideas about gender and sex, and being so focused on not only heterosexual couples, but heterosexual fertile couples, making the ability to reproduce the key of the entire show. Now, most shows just don't have a need to express anything on that topic, one way or another. But this show picked that as its main theme, so obviously it gets discussed.

As I said, I don't even see it as a thing that's opposed to LGBT, trans or gender discussions. I think it's just a variation on the theme of humans staying human vs. humans modifying their bodies/genes, where the latter invariably become monsters or evil. A very similar situation was found in Suisei no Gargantia, which tried to make it sound like both paths were equivalent but also still sorta sided with the "still humans" faction, even though it had done absolutely horrible things too.
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Old 2018-05-15, 17:27   Link #3038
Kazu-kun
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I don't think your prediction about 02 is off, but that's not a matter of conservative or not, it's just about it being feel good. It'd be pretty sad if she couldn't.
Thematically-wise, it would be more interesting if she couldn't but she and Hiro still ended up together and happy at the end, showing that making babies is not the end-all-be-all of romantic love and human relationships.

Quote:
For example Japan has on average a more modest culture regarding displays of affection, which is part of why we see so little sex or even kissing in anime. But I'd consider that more culture than politics.
Culture and politics go hand in hand. Two sides of the same coin.

Quote:
The thing that is being considered "political" about FranXX are its ideas about gender and sex, and being so focused on not only heterosexual couples, but heterosexual fertile couples, making the ability to reproduce the key of the entire show. Now, most shows just don't have a need to express anything on that topic, one way or another. But this show picked that as its main theme, so obviously it gets discussed.
You can't separate the show from its meta context though. That sort of "being human is all about making babies" message is pretty in-line with Japan's cultural context. Heck, is even in line with their political context. What with Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's views on Japan birth decline and whatnot.
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Old 2018-05-15, 17:43   Link #3039
Gan_HOPE326
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Culture and politics go hand in hand. Two sides of the same coin.
Well, yes, but they're not one and the same. For example something like feeling shy about displays of affection is something you can simply absorb and grow up with, and then have with you whatever your politics are. Some things end up being just personal preferences, whatever their origin. Politics are part of culture, not the other way around.

Also, it's possible that FranXX is thought in the context of Japan's birth rate crisis, though it's a bit of a joke at this point that gets repeated about basically every anime featuring children or child-rearing. In this sense, then, its ideological targets should be seen to be not LGBT or trans people, but "vegetarians". Nine Alpha would represent the kind of people who simply wants to drop out of the whole sex thing out of frustration while the protagonists embody the joys of couples and parenthood.
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Last edited by Gan_HOPE326; 2018-05-15 at 18:03.
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Old 2018-05-15, 18:03   Link #3040
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Well, I'm not saying they specifically had that in mind. All I'm saying is creators can't help being influenced by their cultural and political context, and this is pretty evident in anime in general, not just this show.
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