Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Washu-Chan]

Determining the canon order of the CE shows, is this the "proper" order, with the newer works taking priority:

• Primary: Seed (original/HD Remaster), Seed Destiny, GSD: Final Plus
• Sub-Primary: The TV Movies
• Secondary: The Astray mangas, Stargazer
• Tertiary: The Suit CDs
• Alternate canon: Manga adaptations of Seed and GSD, GSD: The Edge, various GS/GSD video games (including the Super Robot Wars games), Seed Character Theater

[Tak]

StarGazer was a side story to Destiny, but ended before the conclusion to Destiny. So it would have happened between DESTINY & FINAL PLUS.

Unless you were referring to the release dates...

- Tak

[aeriolewinters]

@Washu, you should bump up Final Plus, it's the canon version of the show's ending (even though it's even more FLAWLESS VICTORY)

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

So, with SEED Remaster on the hot seat, what becomes of the old SEED’s canonity? Will they scrap it and make SEED Remaster "more canon"?

[Znozzy]

Honestly, they havent changed too much in the REMASTER, not counting cameos like shinn and the perfect strike, so i doubt it'll change whats canon or not

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

StarGazer was a side story to Destiny, but ended before the conclusion to Destiny. So it would have happened between DESTINY & FINAL PLUS.

Unless you were referring to the release dates...

- Tak

My definition of "primary canon" is if it's animated and, more importantly, had the involvement of Fukuda, Morosawa, or any of Seed/GSD's writing staff (script and/or storyboarding). The creators of Stargazer were on Seed/GSD's writing staff:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...me.php?id=6378

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

@Washu, you should bump up Final Plus, it's the canon version of the show's ending (even though it's even more FLAWLESS VICTORY)

That's why I listed Final Plus after GSD.

How does the Suit CDs fit into the canon?

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Honestly, they havent changed too much in the REMASTER, not counting cameos like shinn and the perfect strike, so i doubt it'll change whats canon or not

Don't forget Greedo shooting first... I mean Nicol "suiciding" himself.

[Destined_Fate]

Indeed, they seem to want Kira to come out of SEED with no blood on his hands. I wouldn't be surprised if they take away Shinn's family and Stella's deaths from Kira. I'm sure they'll find someway to place the blame on someone else or make them all suddenly become stupid and fall on Kira's beams on purpose.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Yeah...naahhh, Kira couldn't be, I mean he imagined Fllay instead of Lacus during that one scene!

I'm talking about why Kira was crying.

Spoiler:

Say what?

Archangel and Dominion had conflicting goals for being in the battle. That's why they're bound to fight each other.

...what? Fllay was a popular girl back at school, she didn't probably NEED anyone to fulfill her need to belong.

We saw her with two friends. That's not enough to gauge how popular Flay was at school. Also, her time at the Archangel, what happened at Orb, and her last talk with Sai pretty much implied that she did want to belong.

As far as Coordinators go where she studied at, pretty much the entire idea of Orb having Coordinators will probably have that effect on her. She said she WAS afraid of Coordinators, and eww she didn't like being too friendly with them. It's contradictory to going to that school, where maybe 5/10 of them would be Coordinators, and she's probably met them incognito, or you know, she can't REALLY choose who she goes with, because maybe some Coordinators didn't want to say they are Coordinators, yadda yadda.

Sure, but like I said, not wanting to be friendly with Coordinators has nothing to do with going along with a group activity.

And her friends (Kira et al) were all pretty shocked. I don't know why? I mean, they can probably associate THAT with her father being a vice minister of the Atlantic Federation (it's so easy to do that in this universe) and all? And you know, rumors going around how she's secretly this vindictive anti Coordinator brat? Instead, we have nothing to back that claim, and she's just suddenly this Blue Cosmos poster girl out of nowhere.

Obviously, they've never had to see her deal with Coordinators.

But how do you explain that obviously melted pilot seat?

It's the heat. Like I said, it's a similar situation when Strike entered the atmosphere.

Yeah, it's completely legitimate to give a random nobody a gun. OK.

Kira's not a random guy.

But why would taking her ring back from Kira make any sense? IIRC somebody already mentioned here that it was an East Asian thing to do to give a piece of jewelry to a person who she or he loves/likes. And besides, it's like you're saying you're taking back a stuffed animal from somebody just after you told that person you love him or her.

You're missing the point. She gave the ring as a little reminder for Kira to remain alive so that he could give it back to her.

Yeah, well, it's because of Lacus' "retirement" from politics that Dully arrived and made everything bad for all the good people of the CE.

Regardless of the situation which allows Durandal to take power, if Durandal were to do something bad, the responsibility would fall on him and not on Lacus unless Lacus took an active role in placing Durandal in power.

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Determining the canon order of the CE shows, is this the "proper" order, with the newer works taking priority:

• Primary: Seed (original/HD Remaster), Seed Destiny, GSD: Final Plus, Stargazer
• Sub-Primary: The TV Movies
• Secondary: The Astray mangas
• Tertiary: The Suit CDs
• Alternate canon: Manga adaptations of Seed and GSD, GSD: The Edge, various GS/GSD video games (including the Super Robot Wars games)

If we include the Remaster, it's probably like this:

SEED:

1. HD Remaster
2. Special Editions/TV Movies compilation
3. Original TV series episodes, After Phase

Destiny:

1. Special Editions/TV Movies compilation
2. Final Plus
3. Original TV series episodes

Keep in mind that the ranking above for the two series probably only matters for actual conflicts, not just for added/removed scenes. Aside from actual conflicts, they should all be equally official.

Side stories like Stargazer, the Astray mangas/novels, Suit CDs are probably just as official, more so with Stargazer than the others. Although I don't know if the short Astray OVAs fit here.

Games and alternate adaptations of the SEED, Destiny, and/or Stargazer stories are most likely not official as far as their stories are concerned. Of course, this does not mean that the works themselves are not official.

[Destined_Fate]

Thinking back... Had Lacus not stopped Kira he may have been able to save Fllay's father, she did delay him a great deal considering that they were already going into battle.

So if Lacus hadn't delayed Kira than Kira wouldn't have run into Fllay(Even if she didn't delay him anywhere near as long as Lacus did it was still a delay), the mechanic even tells Kira that he's late. By the time he gets to the Strike, Mwu had already launched and one of the battleships was sunk.

If Lacus had just stayed in her room than Kira may have been able to salvage at least the final battleship, but he was too late and by the time he arrived Athrun had already severely damaged the second battleship, which soon was sunk, and Mwu is soon forced to retreat since he was fighting alone for quite awhile and takes too much damage.

At least Fllay was smart when it came to using Lacus. Had the Archangel announced to ZAFT that they had Lacus than the battle would have ended immediately. So Murrue trying to keep Lacus out of the war because she was an innocent civie, despite who she is, ended up costing the lives of many good men and women and the sad thing is that they used Lacus later anyway, so the deaths of all those people were pointless.

[monster]

It doesn't matter when Kira arrives. He would still have to deal with Aegis, and the Federation ships would still be destroyed by ZAFT.

[Admiral Larsen]

Man, I feel as if I'm reliving a horrific nightmare and of course the ugly memories have come back with a harsh vengence.

For the debate that has been going on here, well I'd have to side with the supporters of Flay. I always felt that part of the reason why Kira and Lacus were brought back in Destiny was to address the horrifically botched job that occured in SEED and to perhaps justify the popularity of the two characters and the couple.

And I still think that Kira still loved Flay. Don't forget after breaking up with Flay, he had a near death experience and then also learned about the true origins. And then finally after Flay dies right before his eyes, he charges to engage Rau with rage in his eyes (to go to star wars, he goes to the dark side when trying ot engage Rau).

So to summarize between Lacus and Flay in relation to Kira, well here is part of a quote from Star Trek DS9: You know In some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

Guess which is the Borg and which is the Federation. Although the Borg are well evil, they don't try to hide it.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen

For the debate that has been going on here, well I'd have to side with the supporters of Flay. I always felt that part of the reason why Kira and Lacus were brought back in Destiny was to address the horrifically botched job that occured in SEED and to perhaps justify the popularity of the two characters and the couple.

Why would they need to justify a character's popularity? That doesn't make any sense.

And I still think that Kira still loved Flay. Don't forget after breaking up with Flay, he had a near death experience and then also learned about the true origins. And then finally after Flay dies right before his eyes, he charges to engage Rau with rage in his eyes (to go to star wars, he goes to the dark side when trying ot engage Rau).

That still doesn't mean Kira still loved her romantically.

So to summarize between Lacus and Flay in relation to Kira, well here is part of a quote from Star Trek DS9: You know In some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

Guess which is the Borg and which is the Federation. Although the Borg are well evil, they don't try to hide it.

Considering planets have to petition to join the Federation, at least they made their own choice to be "assimilated" by the Federation. The Borg doesn't give you that choice.

And I'm not sure what this has to do with SEED.

[Destined_Fate]

Of course Kira still loved Flay, that's why she had to die... So Lacus could get Kira.

[kaito-kid]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Of course Kira still loved Flay, that's why she had to die... So Lacus could get Kira.

My brain hurts.

[aeriolewinters]

The Truth hurts.

Fixed for you.

[kaito-kid]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Fixed for you.

I don't want to get into this conversation (because I don't really have a strong opinion on this one), but didn't kira say something along the line of 'Let stop doing this' before his final battle in Strike? I thought that was obvious.

The Kira x Fllay relationship is actually very clear and well written.

[hero147]

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

I don't want to get into this conversation (because I don't really have a strong opinion on this one), but didn't kira say something along the line of 'Let stop doing this' before his final battle? I thought that was obvious.

The Kira x Fley relationship is actually very clear and well written.

Apparently not...

There's nothing to suggest that Kira wanted anything else to do with Fllay other than to soothe his own guilt. Fllay was also a friend, which Kira also felt he needed to desperately protect all series long. I always felt that it was "Look Fllay, you had your chance, now move aside."

If only Fllay stayed in line while boarding the sub, she wouldn't be dead and we would no longer be wondering which gundam girl Kira would've ended up with.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Fixed for you.

It's not the truth, it's Flay supporters' refusal to accept the truth. (And I'm saying this as someone who prefers Kira to be with Flay over Lacus.)

Originally Posted by hero147

If only Fllay stayed in line while boarding the sub, she wouldn't be dead and we would no longer be wondering which gundam girl Kira would've ended up with.

That depends on where they're sending her. The excuse given was that the daughter of Minister Allster would be a good face to rally the troops. But where would she do that? If they ended up putting Flay in the Dominion or somewhere in battle, she may still end up dead.

[Tak]

The relationship between Fllay and Kira progressed abnormally. At the end, it was overdone too much too quickly, leaving little to no room for redemption. Even while the relationship was in progress, Kira had exercised a good number of self-doubt regarding his role, and his doubt only intensified after he met Lacus, for he had his first good conversation probably in a long time. He was already wavering.

After all, what was holding that relationship together? Sex and nothing more.

And what did he do for Lacus? A lot of things he found himself not doing for Fllay, and despite what Fllay made him do. Kira actually went against it.

What did Kira really think of Fllay and vice-versa? We don't know, because they never bothered to in the series. Kira certainly realized he was engaged in something other than what he had expected, and wanted to end the relationship. We knew Fllay's reaction to that. Furthermore, what happened when Kira saw Fllay in his flashback during SEED? Fright.

But Kira felt he wasn't free of guilt, so he wanted to settle things straight with Fllay. Yet, settling a matter does not love make. I am sorry, but Kira had already made up his mind by then, and he sure wasn't going back to Fllay. Nonetheless, nobody can deny that they both been through thick & thin, and it was undeniable Kira felt a level of attachment to Fllay. Still, to look at that and call it love is more than a stretch, because I can easily make a case for a lot of female characters with Kira. Hell, he almost got on with Cagali.

Lets not forget, this is also the woman who made Kira commit a series of atrocities, turned against his friends, and wished him to die. I am sorry, but this screams unhealthy at just about every level. I am glad Kira is mentally sound.

- Tak

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by monster

I'm talking about why Kira was crying.

But that's the same scene.

Spoiler:

Archangel and Dominion had conflicting goals for being in the battle. That's why they're bound to fight each other.

Uh...yeah? That's why they were fighting each other in outer space? Would they be fighting each other if they had the same goals? I was pointing to HOW these 2 were the only ones who decided space tag was the best course of action to settle old scores.

We saw her with two friends. That's not enough to gauge how popular Flay was at school. Also, her time at the Archangel, what happened at Orb, and her last talk with Sai pretty much implied that she did want to belong.

So, showing how many friends onscreen is the gauge of how popular Fllay was at school? Lacus doesn't have any friends shown onscreen (save perhaps Athrun who was also her fiance, but that's probably stretching it a little too much), so going by your logic, Lacus was unpopular. Also, Miriallia and Tolle beg to differ - they confirmed pretty much Fllay WAS a popular girl at their school.

Sure, but like I said, not wanting to be friendly with Coordinators has nothing to do with going along with a group activity. Obviously, they've never had to see her deal with Coordinators.

Yes, they probably haven't, but they will hear nasty rumors at school about it right? and given Heliopolis' population, it's NOT that hard to face a Coordinator - or rather, meet a Coordinator. You're making it sound like Coordinators were very rare at Orb. If they were, Orb's military might wouldn't be possible, and wouldn't be known as the country of peace/kingdom of peace/whatever of peace they're making it out to be.

With your other argument, it is implied that they would be doing good deeds to remember dead Coordinators. And yet we have Fllay being scared of Coordinators, and would probably rather die than get friendly with Coordinators, the moment the Lacus incident occurs. Maybe (going by your logic) she can tolerate giving folded paper flowers, but it's weird how basic interaction with them gets her freaked out like that. She's probably interacted with Coordinator classmates, and it's impossible she wouldn't know who they were (unless for some odd reason, the Coordinator heaven Orb instill safety measures to keep Coordinator identities safe and secret to the Naturals living there, which is a big contradiction to the overall image of their kingdom). Now that I also think about it, even Kira's friends were shocked too when they found out he was one. Hmm.

It's the heat. Like I said, it's a similar situation when Strike entered the atmosphere.

IIRC the Archangel moved as to catch Kira before reentry, because the Strike can't survive if it's just going in on its own. Now that you mention the heat, we don't have Strike's seat melted when they landed on the desert. And given the state of the melted seat after the Aegis Strike fight, that was pretty MUCH concentrated heat that could have fried the pilot even before Lowe can save him. It's also funny how the seat is melted (maybe it's because it's just a "small" slice through the hatch anyways) yet the cockpit itself is just pretty much normal.

Kira's not a random guy.

Yes he is. Technically, he was still EA at that point too, so Lacus pretty much gave the weapon to an enemy. Or, if he's listed as KIA, then maybe he isn't. Still, it doesn't change the fact that now, Kira was a CIVILIAN when Lacus handed him the Freedom. At least on board the Archangel before, it had some reason why he had to pilot the Strike. But now, there simply isn't ANY reason at all why Lacus would give him the Freedom, just lolideals.

You're missing the point. She gave the ring as a little reminder for Kira to remain alive so that he could give it back to her.

...say what? so going by this logic, Lacus never really loved him after all, she just commanded Kira to live as much as Lelouch ordered Suzaku to live for him by the Geass. There, Destiny problem (if Lacus really loved Kira and Kira really loved Lacus, and it really turned out she was just using him after all) solved.

Regardless of the situation which allows Durandal to take power, if Durandal were to do something bad, the responsibility would fall on him and not on Lacus unless Lacus took an active role in placing Durandal in power.

If Lacus was already THERE at the PLANTs, would Dully be in power? NO. If Lacus WAS responsible enough to take care of the "peace" she had secured for the entire cosmos at the end of SEED, there probably would be no Shinn at all who could get his hands on the Impulse. Or wait, maybe there would be a crazier Shinn and that could be the start of another war. And if Lacus was pretty much a visionary/advocate for peace that she is, we wouldn't be subject to the asspull that was the Destiny Plan some few episodes before the finale, and countless more evils.