Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[monster]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

*headdesk*

All the power in the world won't do anything if the Freedom's thrusters couldn't attain escape velocity. Given that no MS in any Gundam show has ever had the decency to be shown breaking the sound barrier, the Freedom is about 34 Machs short of hitting escape velocity.

Escape velocity/speed is the initial speed an object needs to move to escape a gravitational field without active propulsion.

That does not apply to a mobile suit with a suitable propulsion, like the Freedom.

The fact that the Freedom can achieve sustained flight means it can already counter Earth's gravitational pull. In order to reach space, it just needs enough of the right kind of fuel to keep its propulsion going until it reaches its destination.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Yes, but we're also talking about basic presentation as well. The Archangel was shown escaping the atmosphere, so we can assume at least some ships can. Was the Freedom or any other MS shown doing the same? No.

Maybe not, but the implication is clear from this episode that the Freedom, at the very least, can do it. So we can also assume that some mobile suits, like the Freedom, can do it.

That said, this was an unusual circumstance. Under normal circumstances, even if a mobile suit can go to space on its own power, it would probably still be better to use a ship.

[Rising Dragon]

The Archangel needed both positronic interference to cut away air resistance AND mount more boosters onto it to achieve escape velocity without the aid of a mass accelerator. There's no way the Freedom could reach space on its own.

Hell, the only mobile suits that can do that in the entire Gundam franchise I think would be the Turn A Gundam, 00 Qan[T], and Sakibure, and they can only do that by teleporting!

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The Archangel needed both positronic interference to cut away air resistance AND mount more boosters onto it to achieve escape velocity without the aid of a mass accelerator. There's no way the Freedom could reach space on its own.

The Archangel was also much heavier than a mobile suit, which means the effect of gravity is much larger on the Archangel, and it's definitely not built as well as a mobile suit to cut through air resistance.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by monster

Escape velocity/speed is the initial speed an object needs to move to escape a gravitational field without active propulsion.

That does not apply to a mobile suit with a suitable propulsion, like the Freedom.

The fact that the Freedom can achieve sustained flight means it can already counter Earth's gravitational pull. In order to reach space, it just needs enough of the right kind of fuel to keep its propulsion going until it reaches its destination. Maybe not, but the implication is clear from this episode that the Freedom, at the very least, can do it. So we can also assume that some mobile suits, like the Freedom, can do it.

That said, this was an unusual circumstance. Under normal circumstances, even if a mobile suit can go to space on its own power, it would probably still be better to use a ship.

No, you're not... ugh...

Look, it's not a question of sustained propulsion or initial speed. Escape velocity is an absolute. You can't just counter gravitational pull by using any thruster firing long enough, you need very specific requirements before you can even think about trying it.

The first thing you need is a thrust to weight ratio greater than 1; very very few things have it; I don't think even 5th generation fighters do. Once you have that ratio, you need to go straight up at a 90-degree angle the entire way. Not only does that require stupid amounts of reaction mass, anything less will just put you into orbit, not out of the atmosphere. The third thing you need is fuel. It's called a delta-v budget, and there's a reason the rocket science community has the saying "if you can escape Earth's gravity, you're already halfway to anywhere in the universe." Most rocket designs vote more than 90% of their mass just to the reaction mass, and most of that is just getting out of the atmosphere.

It doesn't matter how long the Freedom can thrust if it's thrusters can't accelerate it to escape velocity before it runs out of fuel. It has a nuclear reactor; that doesn't mean it has nuclear thrusters, let alone enough re-mass to make it all the way to escape velocity. There's nothing to indicate it does have nuclear thrusters, so we can safely assume it's using conventional rocket thrusters, which puts it solely within the realm of conventional 20th century limitations.

We'd be here until the end of time if we kept working by the assumption of "can until something says it can't." Especially where the Freedom and Strike Freedom are concerned.

Originally Posted by monster

The Archangel was also much heavier than a mobile suit, which means the effect of gravity is much larger on the Archangel, and it's definitely not built as well as a mobile suit to cut through air resistance.

Err... so? You're not taking into account the reactors and power source that can be slapped on a ship. Aerodynamics don't really mean anything here. With enough thrust, even a brick will fly.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Yes, but we're also talking about basic presentation as well. The Archangel was shown escaping the atmosphere, so we can assume at least some ships can. Was the Freedom or any other MS shown doing the same? No.

The Freedom is top of the line in both wars. Kira just never had any urgency to escape the atmosphere with it. It has the most power out of all mobile suits. The ones running of batteries are of course not going to be able to generate enough power to do so which represents 99% of the mobiles suits. The other 1% never had any need for emergency escape of the atmosphere. Sure ships are the ideal way especially in emergency situations like the first battle of ORB but it doesn't mean that 1% can't.

In the case of Lacus going into space though the Freedom was still in the atmosphere and the shuttle was still picking up speed. So there is still time for Kira to catch up for a short period to just exchange a few words.

[Rising Dragon]

It's a top-of-the-line combat weapon, not a top-of-the-line space rocket. It's top-of-the-line abilities are in its mobility, defensive capabilities, weapon systems, computer systems, and reactors. Not pure thrust. There's just simply no way, with physics as they are now and how they are in CE, that the Freedom could reach space on its own. The animation we got was another discrepancy produced by Destiny's lack of trying.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Escape velocity is an absolute.

Escape velocity depends on the mass of the object and the distance from that object's center of gravity. The escape velocity on the earth's surface is much higher than the escape velocity in low orbit.

But that's beside the point, which is that escape velocity is only needed to escape Earth's gravitational field without further propulsion.

The Freedom is not trying to escape Earth's gravitational field. It's trying (well, Kira intended) to escape Earth's atmosphere. Even the PLANTs are still within Earth's gravitational field.

You can't just counter gravitational pull by using any thruster firing long enough, you need very specific requirements before you can even think about trying it.

Of course not, and that's fine, but the Freedom obviously meets whatever requirement is needed or Kira wouldn't even think about following Lacus.

With enough thrust, even a brick will fly.

Right, and the Freedom is certainly no brick.

[Aquaman OS]

Considering he clearly starts lagging behind and the radio starts to break up, I think he could only follow it up so high. Assuming he was going to go with them he would have had to grab onto the shuttle like he did Kusanagi.

I mean if Freedom could just leave the atmosphere as it pleased then there would have been no need to steal the shuttle in the first place. Kira could have just ferried Lacus up to where she needed to go in Freedom.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Considering he clearly starts lagging behind and the radio starts to break up, I think he could only follow it up so high. Assuming he was going to go with them he would have had to grab onto the shuttle like he did Kusanagi.

That is a possibility. Or, he could've just slowed down when he realized he wasn't going to follow Lacus.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Considering he clearly starts lagging behind and the radio starts to break up, I think he could only follow it up so high. Assuming he was going to go with them he would have had to grab onto the shuttle like he did Kusanagi.

I mean if Freedom could just leave the atmosphere as it pleased then there would have been no need to steal the shuttle in the first place. Kira could have just ferried Lacus up to where she needed to go in Freedom.

He was just slowing down because Lacus wanted him to stay on Earth. This could be the same reason they didn't use the Freedom to get there. She wanted him to stay on Earth and help there when she went into space.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

He was just slowing down because Lacus wanted him to stay on Earth. This could be the same reason they didn't use the Freedom to get there. She wanted him to stay on Earth and help there when she went into space.

But she only said that after he tried to follow, and he protested to stealing the shuttle in the first place. If Freedom could fly to space, he could have taken her there without having to risk the dangerous shuttle mission. And then return to Earth. She only protested because he wanted to stay in space and guard her.

And they couldn't have been thinking that even Kira leaving for a little while would be too dangerous for AA because Kira does just that here, and did it before when he took Freedom to go meet with Athrun, and he'll do it next ep when he goes to pick up Milliaria. Just tell AA to stay put underwater, take Lacus and Andy up, to the point where they ditch the shuttle, and head back to AA.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by monster

Escape velocity depends on the mass of the object and the distance from that object's center of gravity. The escape velocity on the earth's surface is much higher than the escape velocity in low orbit.

That presents its own problems, because you've already expended fuel just establishing a stable orbit. Even in mid flight you've already wasted fuel just staying in flight.

But that's beside the point, which is that escape velocity is only needed to escape Earth's gravitational field without further propulsion.

I'm just going to give up on this one, because it'll only lead us into a massive circle jerk.

Of course not, and that's fine, but the Freedom obviously meets whatever requirement is needed or Kira wouldn't even think about following Lacus.

No, the Freedom obviously meets whatever requirement the writers want it to.

Right, and the Freedom is certainly no brick.

... you missed my point entirely.

[The American Average]

wait we're discussing if the freedom can catch up with a space shuttle? didn't the Impulse do it too?

[Rising Dragon]

... no. No it did not.

[The American Average]

Luna shooting at the shuttle in battle of Orb? it practically caught up with it passed up several Astray/Murasames on the way

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by The American Average

Luna shooting at the shuttle in battle of Orb? it practically caught up with it passed up several Astray/Murasames on the way

And still got left behind by the shuttle, and got to deal with atmospheric interference that shook the hell out of it while it was trying to line up a shot.

So, again, no.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And still got left behind by the shuttle, and got to deal with atmospheric interference that shook the hell out of it while it was trying to line up a shot.

So, again, no.

yes the impulse didn't get along side it like the Freedom did. but the impulse had to put itself together fly up and catch up to it passing up 2 murasames on the way. Impulse isn't as good as the Freedom, especially if its not piloted by Shinn, but its still no slouch either.

and i don't remember any atmospheric interference with Luna shooting, she missed.

[CBredbeard]

Whatever Gundam series is using for rocket fuel it's sure as hell is alot better than any propellant we have now. Hundreds of times even. And the rockets tend to at the very least have a 1/1 thrust/weight ratio even for the most basic fighter. As a series progresses in technology, thrust/weight ratios triple or quadruple on the high end. The implication being that the only thing stopping everyone from taking joyrides into space is that as good as the fuel is that they are using, they don't carry enough of it to break atmosphere and achieve escape velocity.

P.S. Old work horses like the F-16 and F-15 had positive thrust/weight ratios even carrying all their gear. It's not a hard thing to achieve.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by The American Average

yes the impulse didn't get along side it like the Freedom did. but the impulse had to put itself together fly up and catch up to it passing up 2 murasames on the way. Impulse isn't as good as the Freedom, especially if its not piloted by Shinn, but its still no slouch either.

and i don't remember any atmospheric interference with Luna shooting, she missed.

The atmospheric interference wasn't visible in the original run, making Luna look like a terrible fucking shot, but was still mentioned within the story. The later releases edited the scene to actually show the atmospheric interference with the mobile suit, which would've worsened the higher it climbed, presumably.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

No, the Freedom obviously meets whatever requirement the writers want it to.

You mean like how a human-shaped object could fly so well in the atmosphere? Works for me.

... you missed my point entirely.

Apparently so. Rising Dragon brought up the use of the positron cannon to reduce air resistance, and yet you're saying air resistance doesn't matter.