2010-05-16, 23:13 | Link #1 | |
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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On the validity of free will
Since immemorial times human beings have been intrigued with the possibilities that the future entrails. We are well aware of the materialness of the past, since it is well engraved in our memories, and on the truthfulness of the present, since it is were we stand. However, more than once different humans throughout history have asked themselves whether our future is an open map for us to decide, whether this future is the logical conclusion of our past that leads us to a single, logical choice, or whether there is a higher flow that decides our fate.
The dictionary defines free will as Quote:
I will post my opinion on the matter later during the course of the discussion. |
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2010-05-16, 23:28 | Link #3 |
Disabled By Request
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Free Will isn't determined, because that would be hypocrisy of nothing being determined except the choice and consequence effect.
I believe people have free will, they just choose not to use it. Or sometimes, not for the better. Ruination is easy, just destroy. Subjugating is easier, just live. My ideology of Free Will sterns from the belief that people 1) Can decide to do what they want, but they have to live with the consequence of their actions. 2) Will always have it, whether or not they believe they do. Though in question, Free Will is debatable on a scientific level. 3) are born free, it's the things and people around them that shackle them and imprison them. I am free, but I cannot disclose the possibility of me writing this actually being appointed - it being already determined in other words. I think I can self-determine myself, but I can't rule out the possible chance of me being nothing. I think that is what we would be without free will: Nothing. We can live, but we aren't 'living' as we should, and that is by our own actions. A god cannot be benevolent if it lives your life for you. That is my opinion on the matter, feel free to oppose it. However, away from what I think. Now then... Free will is the opposite of determinism, in which an individual is free to choose a path before them, in whatever way the please. In the case an individual will be free to choose what, how, or when. On this, It wouldn't be dependent on the individual alone, but also the choices or circumstances of others. Free Will is linked to other ideology, and can be influenced as such. There is a belief that Free Will exists, as we have the right to choose what we do. But what happens, or what we do after choosing what to do - is already predetermined. In the end, free Will cannot be validated in a very easy fashion without extensive theories. I'll leave the rest to Vexx. Last edited by Arbitres; 2010-05-16 at 23:45. |
2010-05-17, 00:01 | Link #4 | |
Senior Guest
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 35
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Sure we got free will. Whether I'll go to class or not is something I will decide by myself. I get to choose if I should have breakfast or not, what to eat, how to move around town, etc., etc.
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2010-05-17, 00:23 | Link #5 |
Disabled By Request
Join Date: Jan 2010
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That isn't my belief, as I can agree with your first statement.
I won't say that there isn't a possibility of determinism be at least somewhat existent. Whether or not it controls our entire destiny is debatable. What I meant was 'You can choose what seat you take, but the ferriswheel keeps moving." sort of ideology. You can choose what you do, but it won't matter much. I don't believe this, but it is an ideal that is probable used by at least someone. I self-determine myself, I don't think determinism effects me in such a manner I can't choose my own actions. Through the course of my actions, I decide on whether to move effectively or quickly - that is an example of choice. Though I think I will stop now, before I make myself look like an idiot or an even bigger one |
2010-05-17, 00:34 | Link #6 | |
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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2010-05-17, 00:40 | Link #7 |
blinded by blood
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It is possible for a human to exercise their free will, but this usually results in death of one sort or another.
Determinism is balderdash; it's just a way of believing in destiny without believing in a deity. The only determinism that exists is what society wills into existence--we're at the mercy of external factors because we're mortal and we don't wish to die, not because everything is predestined. Put another way, we're allowed free will--within a very strict societal constraint. Thus our will isn't truly free, because there are consequences--some of them very dire--for acting counter to societal norms.
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2010-05-17, 00:45 | Link #8 | ||||
Senior Guest
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 35
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2010-05-17, 00:51 | Link #9 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 35
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Like I stated in the other thread, it is my belief that as complex biological organisms we have the illusion of free will, but it does not actually exist. I do not think this devalues or detracts from the decisions we make because to our understanding we are making our own decisions. We still have to work towards goals, have our own ambitions or lack of ambitions, our own personal struggles, etc. These things aren't any less valid... We can only understand our true lack of will from a philosophical/objective viewpoint, and acknowledging that it doesn't exist in that plane does not change daily life.
This kind of reminds me of an anime actually, to tie in to this forum. Chobits explored the theme of artificial intelligence becoming complex enough to appear human, and whether these beings were worth the same as humans. |
2010-05-17, 00:56 | Link #10 | ||
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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I guess you could say that this is a mixture of cultural, environmental and genetic determinism. Or could you say that there is another factor other than this that would let you escape the cage of your past and your present? Of course, there is a very interesting middle ground that many people miss, called compatibilism that might be worth considering: Quote:
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2010-05-17, 01:15 | Link #12 |
Disabled By Request
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Humans have free will. At least, they do before getting a career. You can choose what you want to do throughout your life, even if they are the smallest things. Eventually, you might realize that those things you undervalued before, those choices you made that you thought were unimportant were in fact the most satisfying. Anyways, people do have free will. Governments and corporations want to strip you of it though.
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2010-05-17, 01:33 | Link #13 | |
Senior Guest
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 35
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Compatibilism sounds like determinism, they just change "irrelevant acts" into "free will".
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2010-05-17, 01:55 | Link #14 |
Banned
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A simple way to understand free will.
"Would you like potatoes along with your hamburger?" You can choose if you want or not. Your choices are limited to only these two options. You can also choose what type of hamburger you want but only amongst the choices the menu offers. You can choose the fast food store you will go to eat too but only amongst the stores you can afford to go to, based on distance or time or even money. You have free will but not absolute free will. You are given some choices from which you choose from but you can't do anything you want, like God for example. There are many restrictions. Most of the times the very society imposes those restrictions to a degree they cease to be options and you accept them as impossible to think of. Some have more privileges that allow them through money or connections to have a broader number of options. Others can't even choose to not die from their cancer. Thus free will is determined by the privileges you have as an individual and the material restrictions of your body and society. It is also constrained by your subconscious and unconscious desires. If you like manipulating women, chances are you will talk, marry and have a family with such women, usually not because of personal choice but because of a weird compulsion. And that is the thing about compulsions, they usually make you choose the least favorable option not because of choice but because of a weird inner desire you have the need to fulfill, despite never really choosing to have in the first place. Most homosexuals for example claim that they don't like people of the same gender because of choice but because they were born this way. There is a Hindu philosopher who once quoted on this: "There is no such thing as free will. The very two words that make it up, contradict each other." And he was right. You are never truly free if you have needs to fulfill. That is the essence of Nirvana or Enlightenment in eastern religions. True freedom means doing absolutely nothing out of need, basic or secondary, to do it in the first place. Not creative and almost inhumane but it's true. |
2010-05-17, 02:05 | Link #16 |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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It doesn't matter. If everything is predetermined, it's done so at a level we cannot perceive. Therefore, to a human, it appears as though free will exists regardless of whether or not it truly does. As there is no practical difference we can observe, we might as well assume free will does in fact exist.
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2010-05-17, 02:58 | Link #17 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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It doesn't matter. If God exists, He exists at a level we cannot perceive... As there is no practical difference whether or not we can observe God, we might as well assume that God exists. Kidding aside, I've already stated my stand in a previous thread before it got deleted. Rather than go through it again, I'll agree for the moment with what Raiga already stated: |
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2010-05-17, 03:44 | Link #18 |
Loser-Bum
Join Date: May 2010
Location: a little room
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If a person adheres to the old adage: "It's only wrong if you get caught". Then I guess that's free will.
Conscience-wise - Some people don't have a conscience or a conscience on the level of a pious individual. Maybe due to their upbringing, conditioning, required for the job, or whatever. Different people act differently. |
2010-05-17, 05:10 | Link #19 |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Ever heard of :
You can do whatever you want, as long as you don't get caught. or Do whatever you want now. Just bear the consequences later. Well. It pretty much summarise what I have to say for free will - it means to do anything you want.
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2010-05-17, 07:02 | Link #20 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
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Either everything we do has a cause. In that case, somewhere down the line, there are influences we have no control over, and these influences ultimately result in our choices. If, on the other hand, we act without cause, then what we do is basically random. We don't have control over something that is random, as it seems to happen without any reason whatsoever. If my hand moves towards my ear every other hour by itself, then it doesn't matter whether there is a cause for it or not - if I can't control it, I can't control it, though I'd certainly feel better if I knew why that's the case. Example more or less borrowed from Mark Rowlands.
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free will, philosophy |
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