Epitaph: Speculations and Theories [Episode 1-4]

[ChibiBear]

LOL! Good one XD So maybe not bloodstream?

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Interesting when I followed....downstream I got feet, the key that the two told of (the feet) was ground -_-;;; the island Rokkenjima I doubt that's it.

[ChibiBear]

Yeah, I thought feet as well, but I couldn't think of anything that they could tell us of...

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

see this is why I cut the theory from my line of reasoning -_- it's useless to use the human anatomy. Unless it's referring to the portrait of Beatrice since it shows the human body, even then.....nothing.

[ChibiBear]

Since it seems to be Japanese wordplay, I think that the actual words that are used are the important part... I'm not really sure if I phrased that correctly...

[KoiYuki]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

I was thinking of the human anatomy for a bit toying around with this idea as it can be a river (blood stream)

I thought of blood stream too. My first theory went like this..
My beloved hometown (My body)
the sweetfish river running through it (The sweet blood running through it)
follow its path downstream and seek the key. (For some reason, I linked this to a heart, as it was like the base of the 'river' or whatever)

But it really didn't make much sense in the end..

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I had thought about the bloodstream theory as well, the problem is that if you follow it "down"... and you look for "shore" the "two" will tell you of, make me think about Johnny!!!! 6 letters!!! XD

No no there's no way that's the key!!! °_°

A nice ol' 'village' of hair in that area, huh? Golden hair..

God, I really want to solve this thing! I keep trying, but now the only thing really stopping me is that I can't read the kanji itself!

[Jan-Poo]

Anyway, don't digress, Atlas! You must not doubt that! °_°

Maybe this will help. here is a list of "facts" about the river. Actually they aren't "facts" but hints, most of them are probably true, but some might be deceiving. Anyway the "river" should fit with the most of them to be valid:

1) it is something around the line of a family tree
2) there are things that can go up and down on it
3) you can find it in an atlas
4) it goes through a village, or many villages (whatever "village" means)
5) it has a connection with the sea (whatever "sea" means)
6) it is not a river

[batpig]

Random speculation is random:

Spoiler:

I was reading Li Jianliang's blog and her speculation where Kyoto is mentioned and the lightbulbs went off. I went there a few summers ago and remembered that it was very easy to navigate the main road (Karasuma-toori) because its main intersections are named after numbers. So I checked with the bus map I kept from the time and sure enough, the number went up to 10. So I thought maybe roads could possibly be the metaphorical river, because the roads you find in many cities are numbered, and they do "flow" through the city. (And the kanji used for toori 通 could also mean pass through.)

I don't know which city the epitaph could refer to, but I started with Kyoto because it was where I was at I used a Japanese atlas (http://www.mapion.co.jp/) to see if I can find a 里 around the main road. Eva mentioned thinking like a child's riddle and it reminded me of the solution of a Japanese child's riddle in a manga where the shape of the buildings/roads resemble a kanji. Since Kyoto is a very geometric city, it's very easy to find 里 shapes close up but in the zoom out map (presumably how Eva sees it) you can get a pretty good shape towards the bottom of Karasuma-toori, so I felt I was on to something.

Then I zoomed in to see if I can find any shores. No such luck inside the shape, but right outside of it I noticed a name for a town 上人町 (priest town). The clue mentions that two people will tell you of a shore... Not that far below it was a town called 八王子町 (eighth prince town) which was somewhat inside the 里 shape. That's two people, and there's also a river between them. I looked around the shore of the river between them, and what do you freaking know...

鍵屋町 = kagiyachou = key dealer's town

That's not exactly six letters in kanji. Not really in kana. But if you ignore the "chou" (town) part, that's "kagiya" in romaji.

Unfortunately, my limited Japanese meant I don't know what to do with it. I tried applying it to the first of the ten intersections. (Not numbered one, by the way. It was actually called Karasuma Marutachou, which I really didn't know how to apply "kagiya" to) I really couldn't do anything with it, or even know what to do with the other streets following the instructions in the epitaph. However, on the 10th street I did find something interesting:

大金龍院 = great golden dragon temple

大 can be read as "oo" or "ou" and 金 can be read as "gon" so you can get that pronounciation. I'm really wondering if it's too much of a coincidence that this is the place you find traveling south from the first to the tenth street.

It kinda make sense too that Kinzo could've possibly spent his childhood at a temple, which would make a good reason for him to be separated from the main family. I believe Kyoto was also spared from the earthquake and the bombings during WWII, and the overall layout is pretty much the same as it was pre-war.

Of course, I could be way off the mark. The relation to the sweetfish is weak (I'm thinking it could possibly be that karasuma = crows. Crows eat the fish? ) and I still haven't figured out how to apply the key to the intersection names. And, again, this is a current map so things could be changed, like I know for a fact the train station smacked in the middle of the area is pretty recent. So please take all my ramblings with a huge grain of salt.

[Christen]

If it plays around with a map, would the "journey" along the map, make up an initial Japanese character we can play around? Like writing an actual Japanese character in a a map?

Then Kinzo's love for western might indicate the word can be converted into romaji.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I had thought about the bloodstream theory as well, the problem is that if you follow it "down"... and you look for "shore" the "two" will tell you of, make me think about Johnny!!!! 6 letters!!! XD

No no there's no way that's the key!!! °_°

The funny thing is, I thought of thinking along that line of reasoning, too.
Because Young Eva insisted so much on the riddle being childish and the need to throw away the admiration of Kinzo.
There are many riddles and jokes among japanese children that rely on very dirty puns, so it may be that the riddle is so easy, so childish, that nobody would solve it like that considering it's rather dignified form.

If you search around the epitaph, you find other body related things.
懐 in 懐かしき if read ふところ is also bosom or breast.
So if you would follow that line of reasoning an これを下りて鍵を探せ (Step down from there and search the key) we would follow the 川 (river) which we associated as bloodstream.
川を下がれば、やがて里があり (If we follow that river down, before long there is a village/the home of one's parents), but 里 is also just simply the 'place of one's origin'...well we can all think what that would refer to.
その里に二人が口にし岸を探れ (In this 'home' search/feel around for the shore that two are speaking of/taking into their mouth)...this is maybe the most abstract part of the poem, still we have the 二人, two unspecified people, and they 'speak of', 'take into their mouth's' or 'eat', but 口 could also be another hint as it is also a hole or an orifice.　

The problem is, if those Kanji could really lead us around in an Atlas.
I really have to read that scene again to see if there are more hints hidden in certain words even not taken from the epitaph.

Originally Posted by Li Jianliang

Remember to disregard things built after 1980's at least on the Google map, and to look for things that have fallen into disuse or otherwise removed from general maps since. A lot of things have come and gone in the past 3+ decades.

The problem with that is, that many things may have been wiped of maps and heavily refurbished since then...and we have to consider that Eva may have looked it up in an Atlas that went back to Kinzo's youth, which would again be totally different as even the heavy refurbishment through the Americans did not yet happen.
If anyone knows a good site that collects older maps, I think we would all be a bit happier.

We all have to take into account too, that Ryukishi only said that the Epitaph is SOLVABLE...that could also mean we would have to have the same preposition and access to certain books as for example Eva.

[Jan-Poo]

That's the reason why I think the book Eva is looking is not something too specific, but a generic common atlas. The book archive was also said to be a place where books that weren't of particular interest for Kinzo where stored. In othe words they are all pretty common books you can find anywhere.

@batpig: your reasoning is interesting, but don't make the mistake of feeling excited for finding some names that seem to redirect to the epitaph. This issomething I learned after many research looking at japanese atlas, I can find the kanji used in the firt portion of the epitaph everywhere. It looks like those are very commonly used in name of cities and places. There' like a thousand of places that have the kanji of "sato" and "kishi" in them XD
There are also a lot of places that have numerals from one to ten.

This is probably not casual, probably it is so because the epitaph actually refer to geographic places, however the fact that many places in the whole country have those kanji doesn't help.

Anyway I'm interest in the street analogy. But first I need to know of city maps are commonly included in japanese atlas. or if the word used by eva for "atlas" could also mean a city map (though the book Eva is looking at in the anime doesn't look like one). There is also the problem of which "street" would she pick among all of them.

[Chadauw]

I remember trying to solve the epitaph quite some time ago...

I was thinking that "the two" were Shannon and Kanon (as their names were given by Kinzo).

I tried to find a solution based on the Shannon river in Ireland. If we follow it's path downstream, we can find a town also named Shannon, and near the shore there is an island called Kannon island (iirc). I remember trying to find a six-letters-long word using the other names of the island .

Well, it's pretty sure this line of reasoning isn't correct, after all it seems the river isn't a real river.

Something along the line of a family tree... The first things that comes to mind with the Ushiromiya family is the ranking system used for the family or the one used for the servants...

[Jan-Poo]

My very first interpretation of the first part of the epitaph was as follow:

the homeland is planet earth
the river is the whole water mass
If you go down you find the Antarctica continent (village)

Then I got pretty much stucked there until I found out that "Kuchinishi" can also mean "to be eaten by". There are two large gulfs in the antarctica that resemble two mouths. The "shore" they are "eating" is an "ice shelf".

However I couldn't find any way to change it into 6 characters, "tanagoori" is the japanese word. And In the end I don't think this is the right solution anyway. Too bad because it does fit with Eva's reasoning for the most part, and it is a very simple childish solution ^^;

[batpig]

@Jan-Poo

You're absolutely right, hence my disclaimer at the bottom XD. It's just been really helpful to read everyone's theories + thought process, so I wanted to share mine before I forget.

Another huge flaw with my idea is that a number of other kanjis would work to get my result, but it seems vitally important that it is "sato".

Spoiler for Eva's reasoning:

I was trying to follow Eva's thought process. It seems that "sato" is not a village in the literal sense, but something that you can obviously see on a map once you realize what you are looking for, and street patterns was just an obvious one for me.

But as you say, as long as this can describe any street in any given city, then the whole theory falls apart. (Not having an insider's knowledge of Kinzo like Eva is a huge disadvantage ) I wonder what else you can see on a map that would immediately reminds you of "sato".

Can anyone confirm from the Japanese version of the game whether Eva specifically says "atlas" or does she say "map". I wonder too if it could be a specialized map or something. (i.e. natural resource map? river = flow of the resources. Or a more rational example, railway map.)

I also wonder about the last part of the epitaph that is really glossed over by the characters. Obviously, at that point they'd already have the gold and wouldn't care about everything else. But why does Kinzo even include it? Is it just to make it read like a ritual? For example, "One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead." could mean if you take the letters that have been "killed" and rearrange them, you'll get an additional message?

[Jan-Poo]

the word used is "地図帳" everywhere you look at it's always translated as "atlas" with no other options (which is rare!) ^^;

[chounokoe]

Well yeah I looked it up, it really was just a 地図帳, an Atlas or if you would translate it literally a Map-Book or Map-Register...so anything apart from an actual Atlas seems to be out of question too...

So it really has to be something on a map that is somehow connected to 鮎 and 川 in the vicinity of something related to 里 ... the problem now is, we don't know what kind of map she is looking at.
It can't be a map of Rokkenjima, because Ryukishi said it was solvable and if it was a riddle made as a child or youth, then Kinzo wasn't even on Rokkenjima when he created the epitaph.

So we're back at the start...or better running in circles...wondering what 故郷 it could be where there can be something on a map where 鮎 are found in a　川...maybe there is a town in the vicinity of his birthplace ending with 川 and having 鮎 in it...
Right now I even thought about taking 鮎 apart and forming　魚 and　占. Sadly the only thing that found was, that the Ayu Kanji only exists in Japan as it seems.　

[Li Jianliang]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

1) it is something around the line of a family tree
2) there are things that can go up and down on it
3) you can find it in an atlas
4) it goes through a village, or many villages (whatever "village" means)
5) it has a connection with the sea (whatever "sea" means)
6) it is not a river

I tried the family tree thing and found, after days of research, it's a dead end (I could not get past the 'shore'). It's definitely not the family tree in my opinion.

I looked at a general map of Japan via Google Maps, and the only things I could see going up and down are:

Spoiler:

1) Temperature
2) Interstate highways
3) Interstate train railways

Temperature is just far to vague and immaterial to work with.
Highways are all over the country and have a ton of exits. It's too busy to be specific.
Railway is the only one with clear and visible parts, since it doesn't have an exit every kilometer or something like a highway.

So I'm working off of railways now.

Spoiler for working off assumption:

Assuming that the 'kyou' (郷) in Ougonkyou or Ougon no Kyou is referencing 'kyou' (京). 'Kyou' (京) appears in the Japanese names for Tokyo and Kyoto most prominently on a general map.

I ignored all minor railways in Japan and just looked for the biggest, of which Japan's pride and joy, Shinkansen (bullet train), stood out. Looking up the history of Shinkansen on Wikipedia, only one of the Shinkansen railways was built early enough to fit in with young Eva's first chat with what appears to be Eva in her 30's.

The Tokaido Shinkansen Railway, opened in 1964.

Looking up on where it goes exactly on Wikipedia, it runs from Tokyo through Odawara through Kyoto to Osaka. That seems like I'm on the right track, since there's Tokyo, Kyoto, and even Kinzo's childhood home in there.

Trains have inbound and outbound routes. By 'going down' the 'river', 'going down' also means outbound in Japanese, so I need to follow the railway going away from the home station, Tokyo. So if Kyoto is the 'Golden Land', since it has a 'kyou' (京) and Tokyo is the starting point of 'zero', then it makes Kyoto the tenth stop.

At this point I'm guessing each of the nights is a metaphor for each of the stops between Odawara and Kyoto, with the tenth night being Kyoto, because the journey is over and you have reached the ''kyou' (京) of Gold'.

Beyond the above speculation I have not found or figured out what the 'village' (里) is, so I'm stuck again.

Originally Posted by chounokoe

The problem with that is, that many things may have been wiped of maps and heavily refurbished since then...and we have to consider that Eva may have looked it up in an Atlas that went back to Kinzo's youth, which would again be totally different as even the heavy refurbishment through the Americans did not yet happen.
If anyone knows a good site that collects older maps, I think we would all be a bit happier.

Indeed, I'm going to try checking with the local and university libraries to see if they have an older map of Japan. Google is being too helpful. Every time I try to search for 'kyou' (郷) or 'village' (里), it keeps directing me to nursing homes ('Roujin Home: _____ no Kyou/Sato)'.

[June 1983]

I also think the "sweetfish river" might refer to a road, as well. If it's something that goes up and down, can be seen on a map, and ISN'T a literal river, what else could it be? It needs to have some kind of resonance, literal or metaphorical, with a "family tree" as well. Possibly due to a name associated with it or something near it, or something to do with its historical significance?

One of the things that interests me about this part of the riddle is "shore", which, from Eva's dialogue was clearly an important of solving the meaning. The reason I find it so interesting is because "kishi" is a word Ryukishi has played around with before, in one of Frederica Bernkastel's poems ("There is only one thing that I seek./ What I would obtain will either be the kishi (shore), or shiki (my death)."). There are lots of other resonances with Umineko in the Bernkastel poems, so I can't help but wonder if there is some kind of clue here.

The other interesting part of the riddle to me the "gouge and kill" sections. Unfortunately, I just don't know Japanese and so I can't grasp what's going on here as much as I wish but I what I assume is going on here is that the anatomical body parts refer to either kanji character or PARTS of the characters which can perhaps be removed, turning them into different characters all together. I don't know ... but I feel there has to be some kind of weird Japanese pun, joke, riddle, or child's game which connects these parts of the body with kanji formations.

[Jan-Poo]

Eh... so in the end you also reach to that conclusion. I didn't tell until now, because I didn't want to affect your own reasoning, but in the end I also couldn't find anything that can fit better the description other than a street or a railway.

The toukaidou line has been tried already, I've even found it in the tea party forum of ryukishi's website. If you try that way you end to a city named senrioka 千里丘　and the previous station is named kishibe　岸辺. However no one was able to get past this point, so maybe the toukaidou isn't the right one.

[Ithekro]

Hmmm. The line of reasoning being used right now would suggest people are to be looking for a place on a map.

This would seem incorrect. Using the wordplay to find a path of words on a map leading to something that is the "key" to the Golden Land. Also the key to "their youth". Whatever the word or item is, it would seem to point to a location of the island itself where the gold is hidden, even though the altas would not be pointing to the island at all. It also must be something that, in retrospect, is obvious, since Eva sort of clicked on it as soon as she saw the word/location on the altas.

Thus it must be something relatively simply...once one knows where to look. It also must be somewhere on the island...since Eva can't leave the island.

"The 'shore' the two will tell you of"? What does this get anyone? 千丘