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Old 2011-03-08, 15:53   Link #6101
CainSonozaki
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i was wondering if anyone aside form WH has done english patches for tsubasa or ougon. i do recall reading about someone doing it for tsubasa but didnt see a link, and i keep reading about patches for ougon but im not too sure. just wanting to know if there is.
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Old 2011-03-08, 17:17   Link #6102
Milfeulle9001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CainSonozaki View Post
i was wondering if anyone aside form WH has done english patches for tsubasa or ougon. i do recall reading about someone doing it for tsubasa but didnt see a link, and i keep reading about patches for ougon but im not too sure. just wanting to know if there is.
Here's the patch for Tsubasa:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ucr8t1rivqxx533

Haven't heard of anyone translating Ougon, though.
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Old 2011-03-08, 18:18   Link #6103
moichispa
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These methods are way too complicated.

I think the easiest way is to write the saves on a paper with numbers
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Old 2011-03-08, 19:52   Link #6104
CainSonozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milfeulle9001 View Post
Here's the patch for Tsubasa:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ucr8t1rivqxx533

Haven't heard of anyone translating Ougon, though.
thanks.

also i seem to have some kind of problem installing it. even on japanese language it stops



this also happens when i tried installing ep 8

Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit
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Old 2011-03-08, 20:28   Link #6105
Sheep_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CainSonozaki View Post
thanks.

also i seem to have some kind of problem installing it. even on japanese language it stops



this also happens when i tried installing ep 8

Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit
Copy the files from the disk or file
- make a new folder with the files
- move everything from the fullsrc folder to the main folder
- Unzip the patch to the game folder
- Run via the Onscripter exe in the patch folder

Should run, I have Win 7 64 bit and it runs perfectly fine if I run the game this way.
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Old 2011-03-09, 02:59   Link #6106
naikou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VladD View Post
Also, about his writing speed, it is nothing amazing, he is a professional author. Besides food, sleep and the occasional tour, he has plenty of time to write. And not all the things he writes are new. It is essentially the same story, told (and retold) from different viewpoints. There is only a single true story, and only a bit of it is revealed in each episode. The rest of the episode is comprised of making up a soft layer of magic and mystery.
Even professional authors rewrite their work many, many times. I have heard 10 times is not uncommon from an editor friend of mine.

And come on, every episode of Umineko is VASTLY different, it's not like Ryukishi could just copy and paste EP1, and change it slightly for EP2. They all had to be written from scratch, and even the basic structure of each episode is different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VladD
As Jim Butcher said (the author of the Dresden Files), most of the fantasy stories are the same, the underdog protagonist gathers his merry bunch of wizards or hobbits or knights and goes on an adventure to stop something evil/save someone. The finer details comprise of 30 % of random conversations about food or weather, and 70 % explaining an environment like a forest or a mountain, or a lake. It's similar with detective stories. 10 different types of characters, 20 types of backgrounds, 1 or several killers, few love stories. Make a random permutation of people with roles and places and you have a story.
Except that Umineko is not just some fantasy novel, nor mystery novel, nor any kind of genre fiction. Umineko does not waste inordinate amounts of times describing scenery, like some fantasy authors (hullo there Robert Jordan), and it devotes far more time than any mystery novel to creating solid, believable characters, and expressing actual themes and ideas. Find me another mystery novel that expresses complex issues in epistemology, or a fantasy novel which rationally explains how magic is possible (and is logically correct in doing so!).

I think you are seriously underestimating the scope and technical execution skill of Umineko. It is far from "throw 20 characters in a blender and see what happens, lol", and it is nothing like any other mystery or fantasy novel I have ever read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VladD
For proof, look at the scene where Maria lost her rose, and people went into the storm to look after her. Repetition much?
What, because Maria says "uu" a lot? That is not even close to the same thing as recycling plot elements. Or do you actually think that a character repeating themselves is the same as taking the plot of "Lord of the Rings", changing it slightly, and then publishing it over and over, like many fantasy authors?
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Old 2011-03-09, 03:25   Link #6107
Sherringford
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Originally Posted by naikou View Post
Even professional authors rewrite their work many, many times. I have heard 10 times is not uncommon from an editor friend of mine.
This is true. But I disagree about this being a good thing. The fact that Ryuukishi doesn't spend any time editing his work is what makes the writing style so terrible.

What kind of author seriously writes *cackle* to show that a character is cackling? "Uooooaaaaaaaaaah!" is not a good word. At all. All in all, considering Umineko's writing quality, I'd say it's pretty understandable. He likely doesn't go over as many rewrites as normal authors do.

In the end, he's self published. Yeah yeah he has got a team, but as far as we know there is no one who tells him to cut things or where to improve, which is where most rewrites come from. Without an editor, you don't even know what you did wrong to start with.

Quote:
Except that Umineko is not just some fantasy novel, nor mystery novel, nor any kind of genre fiction.
...I'd disagree there, but I suppose that's a matter of opinion.

Quote:
Umineko does not waste inordinate amounts of times describing scenery, like some fantasy authors (hullo there Robert Jordan),
Umineko doesn't waste inordinate amounts of time describing scenery? Are you serious? Well, if you are referring to scenery as...actual scenery, sure, that's true. We know that there is an island and stuff but we are never told in painful detail where everything is.

But Ryu's sense of pacing is abysmal. His pacing makes up for any sort of hope at being quick and to the point he might have.

...Although I really agree with the Jordan criticism. Seriously sometimes his writing feels like the fictional unabridged Princess Bride novel.

Quote:
and it devotes far more time than any mystery novel to creating solid, believable characters, and expressing actual themes and ideas.
Agatha Christie would like to have a word. Umineko is a single story told through 8 books. It gets more time to develop its characters. Saying that a series with 8 books develops its characters more than mysteries, that typically happen during only one book is like saying that an eight floor building has more windows than a house. Of course it does but...uh...that's expected.

Quote:
Find me another mystery novel that expresses complex issues in epistemology,
The Greek Coffin Mystery by Ellery Queen. Notable for approaching the possibility of multiple solutions can be possible, what the meaning of a real solution is, and why the real solution is so much deeper than the fake ones.

Quote:
or a fantasy novel which rationally explains how magic is possible (and is logically correct in doing so!).
Flight of the dragons, for the magic vs science debate, Burning Court by JDC if you can read between the lines, and really everything JDC ever wrote.

JDC was a mystery writer who offered the "impossible is possible" angle a lot. There is a reason why he was called "The man who could explain miracles."

To quote Three Coffins, one of his best novels...

Quote:
Two murders were committed, in such a fashion that the murderer must not only have been invisible, but lighter than air. According to the evidence, this person killed his first victim and literally disappeared. Again according to the evidence, he killed his second victim in the middle of an empty street, with watchers at either end; yet not a soul saw him, and no footprint appeared in the snow.
All his novels had that magical challenge to the reader where he was dared to solve the impossibility. The magic behind locked rooms was a well debated theme in many of his essays and most mystery writers are aware of it.

Ryuukishi was the only one to flat out tell his readers about it. Most writers just don't make it the central topic around it, because they feel their readers can pick up on those subtle challenges without them pointing at it.


Quote:
I think you are seriously underestimating the scope and technical execution skill of Umineko. It is far from "throw 20 characters in a blender and see what happens, lol", and it is nothing like any other mystery or fantasy novel I have ever read.
I think you are overestimating it. It is a very ambitious project and I do commend Ryuukishi for trying, but his ideas are neither new nor particularly well executed. It's the amount of ideas he tried to put together over a single series that's impressive. His execution however, was lackluster to say the least.

Still, he deserves credit for trying, and now that he has another completed series under his belt his next series could incorporate what made Umineko fun and perfect it.

Quote:
Or do you actually think that a character repeating themselves is the same as taking the plot of "Lord of the Rings", changing it slightly, and then publishing it over and over, like many fantasy authors?
If we are going to talk about plot, Umineko is basically The Greene Murder Case by S.S Van Dine while making the murderer more sympathetic, with the island from And Then There Were None as the setting plus the mansion from Greene Murder Case.

As for every locked room he used, they are extremely childish if compared to say Carr's, and are old tricks of mystery fiction.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the guy. I'm saying that your idea that "fantasy novels just copy Lord of the ring's plot but Umineko is totally original" is wrong. His ideas are not original, and that's fine.

Writing is about taking many different ideas and making them your own. He did make them his own. He just...well, personally I think he lacked some talent while doing that.

No offense, but you are defending Ryuukishi way, way too much. He isn't the second coming of Jesus. He is not as original as you are claiming him to be. But still, he did aim very high with his series. He came up short in the end, but if you don't dream big, then what's the use in dreaming? His next series will be even better thanks to his failings and successes during this series.

I understand where you are coming from when you say that Umineko is original with some things, but you are really, really underestimating both the mystery and the fantasy genre. They are both more developed than you are assuming.

Last edited by Sherringford; 2011-03-09 at 03:38.
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Old 2011-03-09, 12:14   Link #6108
cloudscream
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So is it OK for us to ignore Japanese sensibilities (and references to Japanese pop culture ["Uooooaaaaaaaaaah!"]) and compare Japanese works with Western ones?

Are you serious? You waste your time criticizing a doujin game sold in Akihabara for otakus, using the lens of Western literature? That sounds annoying. Overthinking, perhaps?
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Old 2011-03-09, 12:14   Link #6109
naikou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
What kind of author seriously writes *cackle* to show that a character is cackling? "Uooooaaaaaaaaaah!" is not a good word. At all. All in all, considering Umineko's writing quality, I'd say it's pretty understandable. He likely doesn't go over as many rewrites as normal authors do.
Not to mention the extreme amounts of punctuation...................

But I can forgive the weird onomatopoeias. After all, it's a novel translated from Japanese, perhaps "Uooooaaaaaah" is more acceptable in that particular language. I wouldn't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford
But Ryu's sense of pacing is abysmal. His pacing makes up for any sort of hope at being quick and to the point he might have.
I always found Umineko's pace to be fairly brisk, with a few notable exceptions. The romance scenes in EP2, the beginning of Ange's story in EP4, a few others.

The Chiru episodes especially move fairly quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford
Agatha Christie would like to have a word. Umineko is a single story told through 8 books. It gets more time to develop its characters. Saying that a series with 8 books develops its characters more than mysteries, that typically happen during only one book is like saying that an eight floor building has more windows than a house. Of course it does but...uh...that's expected.
You use Christie, of all people, as an example? The only characters she ever managed to develop were Marple and Poirot, and even then, only because they get so many novels (Poirot would be what... a 50 story skyscraper, to use your metaphor?).

Even then, I cared far more about the cast of Umineko in EP1 than I do about most the victims in most mystery novels. Which is to say, still not very much, but more than "not at all". And by EP2 I had a vested interest in several of the characters - Rosa, Maria, Shannon, Battler, Kinzo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford
The Greek Coffin Mystery by Ellery Queen. Notable for approaching the possibility of multiple solutions can be possible, what the meaning of a real solution is, and why the real solution is so much deeper than the fake ones.
I'll add that onto my reading list, though I haven't had good experiences with Queen novels in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford
JDC was a mystery writer who offered the "impossible is possible" angle a lot. There is a reason why he was called "The man who could explain miracles."
Carr is probably my favorite mystery author (yes, over Ryukishi), so kudos for that. But I wouldn't take his extremely clever locked rooms as the same kind of thing that Ryukishi accomplishes with Umineko. I don't know how much of a backing in philosophy you have, but one of my favorite parts about Umineko is that it goes for interesting, but rarely discussed issues in epistemology, and steers clear of boring and done-to-death metaphysics. And it actually discusses them well!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford
Ryuukishi was the only one to flat out tell his readers about it. Most writers just don't make it the central topic around it, because they feel their readers can pick up on those subtle challenges without them pointing at it.
Many mystery writers do point out the challenges. Every Queen novel I've read has an aside where Queen says, "Alright, you can solve the mystery now! Go ahead! Re-read as many times as you like!"

But that's beside the point. Umineko isn't a mystery novel at it's heart - if anything it's a story about mysteries. It isn't for lack of subtlety that Ryukishi explains the mechanics of mystery novels - it's so that he can analyze them and build them back into something new. See EP5, in particular, with its rare evil detective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford
I think you are overestimating it. It is a very ambitious project and I do commend Ryuukishi for trying, but his ideas are neither new nor particularly well executed. It's the amount of ideas he tried to put together over a single series that's impressive. His execution however, was lackluster to say the least.
Umineko is amateur, yes, and I agree that a few more rewrites would have helped. However, I do think it is an original concept. The mystery contained inside it is not original (the remote island during a storm is intentionally lampooning mystery novels, not mimicing them, I think), but Umineko is not only it's mystery aspect. That's only one component. There are way more interesting and important issues at stake than "whodunit".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford
As for every locked room he used, they are extremely childish if compared to say Carr's, and are old tricks of mystery fiction.
Agreed. Although I hadn't seen a few of them before. The first twilight murders of EP3 come to mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the guy. I'm saying that your idea that "fantasy novels just copy Lord of the ring's plot but Umineko is totally original" is wrong. His ideas are not original, and that's fine.
The ideas are not original, but the presentation is very much so, which is really the most important part. Most of Shakespeare's work is "unoriginal", he got all of his plots from old folk stories, or other plays. But no one cares, because it's execution that counts.

And I should clarify, I don't think all fantasy novels merely imitate LotR, only bad ones do that. My personal favorite fantasy author, George R. R. Martin, has been stuck with writer's block for over 5 years, which is why I am even more impressed with Ryukishi's quick speed. It is probably too quick, as you say, but it is nonetheless impressive how good Umineko is for a first draft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford
I understand where you are coming from when you say that Umineko is original with some things, but you are really, really underestimating both the mystery and the fantasy genre. They are both more developed than you are assuming.
Well, mystery is a very big genre, Golden Age mysteries are a very small part of that genre. And that particular sub-genre has been out of steam since the 1930's. It's almost impossible to write a traditional mystery these days without sounding tongue-in-cheek. And I don't think Umineko belongs to that genre, which is the point I was trying to make earlier.

And I never intended to disparage the fantasy genre at all, only the idea that fantasy is 70% describing scenery, and 30% throwing characters in a blender, or however VladD put it. That's seriously, seriously misjudging how difficult the writing process is.
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Old 2011-03-09, 14:10   Link #6110
VladD
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Actually, the writing process is only difficult for the people that only read books, and dream of writing one. If you are totally committed to an action, like writing, it becomes not only easy, but fun. The only thing you have to worry about is spreading your word (to which I have to thank Witch Hunt for Umineko).

You remember that story about the person who became a bestselling and praised author after he bought all his books in the stores, so he could get on the bestseller list? If you are famous, people will read just about anything you write (Paris Hilton autobiography, anyone).

Every person who reads 20 or so books on a subject (for example chemistry) can be considered a somewhat expert on the subject. But every person who has read 20 or so books about fictional characters or events cannot say something like that. It is not about the numbers. It is about the patterns. After a while you start remembering things from other books, and it suddenly the whole genre becomes obsolete in your eyes. However you will always cherish the moments you spent with Bilbo, on his merry adventure, about decreasing global warming by killing the excess population of the Middle Earth in one battle or another.

And after all those Umineko can hardly be called a masterpiece.

Spoiler for Umineko:


But it's fun, and I read it for that.

Second, the books you quote seem really good, I'll read them when I get the chance.
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Old 2011-03-09, 14:26   Link #6111
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
What kind of author seriously writes *cackle* to show that a character is cackling? "Uooooaaaaaaaaaah!" is not a good word. At all. All in all, considering Umineko's writing quality, I'd say it's pretty understandable. He likely doesn't go over as many rewrites as normal authors do.
You really shouldn't compare such kind of cultural details, while the context doesn't apply.
For your instance, onomatopoeia are used to transcript what a character does in this context. くすくす (kuskusu) is the sound made by a giggling character for instance, and it is really not something "uncommon" in Japanese.
Likewise, くっくっく (kukuku) is the sound used for cackle, and I really don't think we would translate it into a "kukuku", it doesn't make any sense in English (which reminds me we should take care of Ronove's). You often see the onomatopoeia used in script and all in Japanese, despite the voice actor -never- literally read what it means, but rather makes the sound that matches that line.

Likewise, Japanese use some altered sound for few expressions as well. You don't say "it hurts, it hurts!" when you are in pain, right? You say something like "Ouch" or something. In Japanese, it isn't really uncommon to literally says いたい (it hurts!).
So, UUUUUOOOOOOOH might be not what you would say in English, but that's not uncommon in Japanese at all.

I really don't see how you can criticize something like that, whereas it is obviously impossible to directly apply to English fiction.
Please remember that we translated Umineko with a literal approach, in order to keep what the author wanted to convey. That does not mean it would be the best translation to convert the said story into an English format.


I really don't get why this discussion has emerged in the damn "translation thread", either. Please drop the offtopic for now.
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Old 2011-03-09, 21:17   Link #6112
Klashikari
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However interesting a discussion is, I must remind you that a topic is set for each thread, and playing semantic about "translation project" doesn't bode too well.
It isn't the first time a discussion turns into like this, and it is an habit that should cease. I guess I was way too lenient recently and I will just infract here and there at this rate.

Again, please contribute to a thread -only- if the topic at hand matches the thread. Discussion about the translation project does not involve the author's writing style or whatever you can come with it (especially when the discussion derails to comparison with other authors and whatnot).
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Old 2011-03-10, 02:01   Link #6113
pointzeroeight
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I've been trying to get this working for a good portion of the day, and have been making bits of progress until I've gotten to this point. I'm not very familiar with Ubuntu, but it's what I've got, and I'd like to be able to run Umineko on it. Running 10.10, managed to get Onscripter-en working, but when I try to run that command from the patch folder, I get a message saying that SDL couldn't be initialized. Any assistance would be much appreciated.
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Old 2011-03-10, 03:55   Link #6114
Vampe
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Originally Posted by pointzeroeight View Post
I've been trying to get this working for a good portion of the day, and have been making bits of progress until I've gotten to this point. I'm not very familiar with Ubuntu, but it's what I've got, and I'd like to be able to run Umineko on it. Running 10.10, managed to get Onscripter-en working, but when I try to run that command from the patch folder, I get a message saying that SDL couldn't be initialized. Any assistance would be much appreciated.
sounds like you are missing SDL library,
Code:
sudo apt-get install libsdl1.2-dev libsdl1.2debian
should do the trick.

//edit: forgot to tell where to put it (you might alredy know but someone might come here in the future and read it and not know) press [ctrl]+[alt]+[t] on your keyboard, then write the code and press enter, or you can copy the code, right click the window that opened and then left click and chose paste, then press enter.

Last edited by Vampe; 2011-03-10 at 04:06. Reason: forgot some instructions
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Old 2011-03-10, 04:32   Link #6115
pointzeroeight
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I've already got those installed, though I ran the command anyway in case they weren't quite the same.
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Old 2011-03-10, 04:56   Link #6116
Vampe
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Originally Posted by pointzeroeight View Post
I've already got those installed, though I ran the command anyway in case they weren't quite the same.
is there a default.ttf file in the patch folder? if not that might be the problem, you can get the file http://onscripter.unclemion.com/pub/default-font.zip if this don't work then im out of ideas :S
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Old 2011-03-10, 05:02   Link #6117
pointzeroeight
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is there a default.ttf file in the patch folder? if not that might be the problem, you can get the file http://onscripter.unclemion.com/pub/default-font.zip if this don't work then im out of ideas :S
Yep, got that too. I was looking around online and saw mention that the libsdl that the package manager gets may have something wrong with it, but haven't gotten around to doing it from source. Guess that'll be the next thing I try, though I'm not confident in my knowledge of how to do it. I'm assuming it'd be best to uninstall the existing SDL packages if I were to do this, right?
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Old 2011-03-10, 05:07   Link #6118
Vampe
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Originally Posted by pointzeroeight View Post
Yep, got that too. I was looking around online and saw mention that the libsdl that the package manager gets may have something wrong with it, but haven't gotten around to doing it from source. Guess that'll be the next thing I try, though I'm not confident in my knowledge of how to do it. I'm assuming it'd be best to uninstall the existing SDL packages if I were to do this, right?
yes you need to uninstall existing if you whant to rebuild from source, also you need to have gcc compiler installed, you get it by runing
Code:
sudo apt-get install build-essential
after that follow the readme of the source file, if it dont have a readme usaly you navigate to the source file in terminal window and run
Code:
./configure
make
sudo make install
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Old 2011-03-10, 15:01   Link #6119
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@Klashikari:
Any idea when you will be able to release the first "partly" (first few chapters) translation of Ep8?
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Old 2011-03-11, 11:50   Link #6120
zibbazabba905
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anyone hear anything on how ryukishi is doing?
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