Claymore Chapter 121

[MalakTawus]

Spoiler for Too long probably....:

@ATM

No one can do a full awakening and comeback, you can’t return from the other side when you become the other side. I haven’t seen such a thing through the whole manga and it’s like saying that a Claymore can revert to being 100% human again. Maybe in the future I will see these paradigms broken, but right now it’s what it is.

Infact i said that we can't even be sure that Claire can do it,i NEVER said that Claire can do it,BIG DIFFERENCE.......
....also don't forget that Claire is actually different from all the others so it' theoretically possible that her awakening will have different rules,and the fact that she is "more human" thamn normal claymores is at least a HUGE hint that surely something different will happen in her awakening.

So Malak, going back to what you said to SagaraSouske; your words: “no matter what you say but you are plain wrong, the reason why Jean didn’t do it is very simple: SHE CAN’T DO A PARTIAL AWAKENING AT ALL”. Jean developed an awakened body and was able to return properly because she kept her spirit intact; but if she didn’t do a partial awakening as you say, and certainly she did not do a full awakening, then what the heck did she do?

First of all i said very clearly what i mean with "partial awakening",and following THAT definition if 100% sure that Jean can't do partial awakening, if instead you call "partial awakening" what instead i (and not only me) call half-awakening (in other words,) going over the limit,maybe even awakening the whole body BUT keeping "the same mind",than yes, using that definition even Jean can do a partial awakening.
BUT your way of defining two different things with the same name is not very wise imo.....
Also you still havent answered my super-simple question,if Jean was able to awaken only parts of her body like Claire did,than why she didn't use that trick to free herself??? It would have been incredibly easy with awakening just a single arm.
The best logical conclusion is that Jean didn't do it simply bacause she can't,you are clealy denying the evidence.

ALSO,who the hell have confirmed that you really lose something forever (that you can't get back no matter what you do) when you awakens?
This is just a speculation!It's not a fact,so i don't necessarily have to agree and follow his theory,infact imo when someone awakens i'm not so sure at all that she really lose something,maybe instead the yoma part simply takes control.
Infact i personally belive that sooner or later Claire will really be able to fully awaken and come back,my theory is just as valid and probable as yours.

Malak why do you keep saying that only someone who knows the quick blade can achieve a partial awakening, what about all the twins and Jean, they didn’t know the quick sword and yet they did a physical awakening.

If you read what i mean with "partial awakening" is pretty clear why the QS concept is connected to the partial awakening concept.
Infact,following my definition,Jean NEVER did a partial awakening,and the twins....well the twins can help each other with the soul link so even if they don't know the QS they still know another technique that can help them to do it,but still they can't do it "alone".

Gxy and Malak, I don’t know why you feel that Clare’s leading role is threatened by the ghost’s partially awakening, it does not necessarily cheapen the story.

That's not the point.
It would be pretty stupid since no one else has ever shown to be able to do it,but for whatever reason now those 3 could do it even if they are not specaial at all (and tbh not even that great compared to past warriors....).
Claire could do something like that without resulting in something stupid because Claire is REALLY special,the other ghosts are just normal warriors so it would be super cheap for those 3 to do something like that now.
Why you people ALWAYS forget that Claire has REALLY a different body?

@Asimati

Miria vs Claire in a duel like the one vs Flora, but still only at 0% yoki. Miria would win.

I don't agree at all.There is no indication that Miria would win,infact Claire with 0% WC was not inferior in any way compared to Miria.The result of the battle would be uncertain.

Miria's evil twin vs Claire and one has to die. Uncertain outcome, since Claire starts to pull some weird moves at this point.

BS.Deneve can say all she wants,but it's pretty clear that in a life-death battle Miria doesn't stand a chance against Claire (unless she win like she did against Histy,lol) 'cause Claire's power can go beyond crazy in those situations.
If (for example) Claire hated Miria like she hates Prissy,Miria wouldn't last even 1 minute against Claire,especially 'cause when she goes all out (QoB mode) Claire is capable of humiliating Miria even in speed (her stongest ability)....not to mention that the QS in that situation would be well beyond anything that Miria can handle.....
....and as if it wasn't enough,as soon as Miria tries to use yoki,Claire can also use her prediction ability......no really, in a life-death fight at full powers Claire is way too dangerous for Miria.

In any case, Miria and Claire is repeatadly refered to be fairly close in power

Normally yes,but it's obvious from what we have seen that Claire's body is hiding a power well above her normal output.

So a 100% QS can be equal to a theoretical 100% WC (that can't be done in practice)

What's the point of this?
Also using WC at 100% would basically be something like using QS and WC AT THE SAME TIME....of course it would be something very powerful,but probably impossible to realize it in reality.If it's not impossible,than maybe Claire will really show us something like that in the future,who knows...

even if I still say that my interpretation is consistant with what we already know.

Yes,i agree that your interpretation is consistant,i was simply pointing out that it's not exactly a proof.
It would be a proof that Miria is indeed better than Rigardo only if we knew for sure that he actually cared to do a perfect evasion attack but he failed in doing it......the problem is that we can't be that sure since he probably didn't care at all about something like that.

You do have a good point and I'm going on a hunch and say that it's a bit overlooked by Yagi, since it's the most reasonable thing. But it still depends on how her motivation looks like. My point is that from her perspective, being at your absolute best will never be enough. She's never been displayed as a training freak afterwards.
My main purpose is mainly to link her together with Luci to be able to compare how strong the AO:s was as claymores. If Raph's gone and became much stronger than that, it ruins that link into a more confusing state, since that would mean that an AO Raph would be the strongest AO and starts to break claymore Claire a bit as well (the Queen of Blades (QoB) version is already broken).

I do wonder at what point Raph got that all A stats then. It's one of those things that makes her feel like a baseline.

I agree that Yagi really left too many points unclear about Raph,and she seems to be a really great character too,sigh.

I'm gonna repeat myself, since it's pretty much the base of my point. Miria uses burst speed to keep up to Rigaldo.
But she's not constantly in burst speed, so her baseline has to be slower than Rigaldo and her bursts faster. Say that Rigaldo got total constant speed of 10 and Miria got total speed 10. Since Miria's speed is the sum of two different components, the normal speed and the burst, the burst (aka phantom) has to be above 10 and the normal speed below 10 for the average to be 10.
Thus the phantom phase has to be faster than Rigaldo, even if Miria is not.

Hmmm....i get your point and i admit that your interpretation make a lot of sense.
My only doubt remains on the fact that if you really are right,i don't understand why Miria didn't at least try an "impale attack" (or any attack where she didn't swing her sword but simply kept it still while she moved at phantom-speed),that should have been VERY effective against Rigardo since she wouldn't have the problem to stop and attack giving Rig time to evade.......strange.
If you can give me a clear explanation about this,than i'm sold with your theory since it seems that works quite well with everything else.


@SagaraSouske

@Malak, I disagree about Clare's "limb awakening" is at will. First she didn't control such awakening. She just wanted more power and it drove her towards awakening her limbs first but her mind is more driven in defeating Rigardo such that her full awakening was put on hold until she destroyed Rigardo. After that, she continues to awaken until Jean pulled her back. Thus it's just a normal awakening process that we see except in a slower fashion because she was able to somewhat stop right after her limbs awakened. This is by no means a controlled partial awakening of her limbs.

I don't agree,infact i'm quite convinced that Claire is doing the partial awakening applying the QS concept to the maximum on all her limbs.
It's not a simple slow-awakening,and i'm even more sure now that we have seen that Claire can awakens all her limbs at the same time IN AN ISTANT.
It's normal that the first time that she did something like that it was a work-in-progress decision,especially since it wasn't something that she planned from the very beginning,it was something that she decided to try 'cause she had no other options.
Also it's not a surprise that she was losing herself at the end of the battle, that's basically the same risk as when she uses the QS,the difference is that with "partial awakening" she goes a lot more overboard so it's perfectly normal that all her awakened limbs push her to awaken completely,and it's also obvious that it was something very difficult to stop,especially since that was her first time to try something THAT crazy.
On the contrary now she showed to be able to awaken her limbs very easily (even if now she has some sort of block....and a way bigger problem,lol)

Clare's limb awakening is simply a state between going over the limit (80%) and Full awakening. Any of the Fab 4 can achieve it except only Clare pushed that far.

No,limb awakening is nothing like that.If you awaken normally your whole body starts to awaken at the same time,Claire was able to do something like that onlòy 'cause she used the QS concept.
No one else is able to do something like that (well,maybe Irene could....if she is still alive,lol).

Jean on the other hand do not have such power boost from body awakening and nor could she spare any mental fortitude towards freeing herself when all she can focus on is preventing herself from complete awakening. There is no contradiction at all as to why she didn't free herself.

No there is an HUGE contradiction.If Jean was able to awaken only one arm,she would have freed herself very easily and would have been able to stop her suffering from increasing, stopping this way the risk to lose control.
She didn't do it,so the ONLY logical explanation is that she can't do it.

Untill someone shows clearly to be able to do a partial awakening like Claire did (i'm using my definition of partial awakening,just to be clear) than Claire is the only one to be able to do something like that.

Clare 'did not' know a 'technique' to partial awakening her limbs. Where did you get this idea from?

Ehm, in case you didn't notice that's exactly the definition of the QS brought to the limit.
Please,go reread in vol7 the definition that Irene gave to the QS,she tell very clearly that is basically like AWAKENING the arm and she also tells that the QS concept is to have enough spiritual power to focus the yoki ONLY on the arm and stopping the yoma energy from leaving that arm.
It doesn't take a genius to understand that the QS is the key that let Claire be able to do the partial awakening.
Partial awakening is basically the QS concept applied to all the limbs and brought to the maximum
It's actually pretty obvious that only Claire can do something like that 'cause she is the only one that knows how to focus and confine the yoki energy only in some parts of her body.
Only warriors that are able to use that "focus and confine" trick can hope to be able to do any partial awakening,BUT if you are able to do something like that it means that automatically you can also use the QS since it's basically the "easy version" of partial awakening......and since i don't see warriors going around using QS,it's pretty obvious that no one beside Claire can do partial awakening.

I see that you are confusing the principle behind Clare's QS with her limb awakening. QS is worded as a 100% youki release in one's arm. It isn't actually awakening. Clare's limb awakening has nothing to do with her learning QS.

LOL,that's why you don't understand......

[SagaraSouske]

No I understand the concept behind QS perfectly and read exactly what Irene described about QS. However, the conclusion I drew is clearly different from yours. QS is a 100% release in one's arm. It is "Like" awakening that arm however it is not actually awakening. The key word there being "Like". It's a way of describing how QS functions but it does not mean one actually awakens the limb to perform QS. I think you misunderstood what Irene said.

The logic is quite simple. Irene has never half awakened. In order to partial awakening a limb, one must cross the 80% threshold. Since Irene never did cross that line and she created the technique, therefore QS cannot be partial awakening a limb. It may in effect resemble awakening an arm since you basically do a full release in the arm and let it go berserk. It however is not a real awakening of limbs.

[MalakTawus]

First of all we don't know for sure if the arm during the QS is really awakened (and no,just because an arm doesn't seem awakened it doesn't mean that it's not awakened,it could simply be an awakened arm in human form),but that's not even the point.
The real point is that the QS is a technique that is based on the concept "focus yoki only in one part of the body without letting that energy escape from that", if you don't get it that that's the concept behind Claire's awakening than i don't know what more to say to you since it can't be more obvious than that.

Now that i think about it,i have to say that during the QS the arm is REALLY awakened,infact simply having 100% yoki surely doesn't explain why the arm goes berserk,the ONLY real explanation to that is that the arm is really an awakened arm in human form.

[SagaraSouske]

Putting 100% youki in arm is not the same as awakening that arm. Otherwise Irene would be an AB and not a warrior. In order for QS to really awaken the arm, Irene would have to master partial awakening and be able come back by her own will. After all, she created the technique. It is pretty clear that Irene never went pass her threshold. The whole point of Irene give her arm to Clare was that she wasn't the type to risk it all and fight but rather run and hide. It's against Irene's nature to attempt crossing the 80% line and it is likely that once she crossed, she may not come back. That arc was a contrast between Irene and Clare and what type of person they are.

The whole QS arm is human form of awakened arm is a rationalization purely based under the assumption that the QS arm is an awaken arm in the first place. If I do not agree with your basis in the first place, it's not a useful point to support your argument.

[MalakTawus]

Putting 100% youki in arm is not the same as awakening that arm. Otherwise Irene would be an AB and not a warrior.

Sorry but this is stupid,awakening an arm IS NOT THE SAME as a full awakening.
Just because Irene awakens an arm it doesn't mean that she has to fully awaken,lol.
That's exacly why the QS is a technique that only a monster could use,if not (like i have already said) there would be tons of warriors going around using that technique.

In order for QS to really awaken the arm, Irene would have to master partial awakening and be able come back by her own will.

it's true that Irene didn't go as far as Claire,but that doesn't mean that her arm wasn't awakened, she simply never allowed her arm to change into its awakened form.

The whole point of Irene give her arm to Clare was that she wasn't the type to risk it all and fight but rather run and hide. It's against Irene's nature to attempt crossing the 80% line and it is likely that once she crossed, she may not come back. That arc was a contrast between Irene and Clare and what type of person they are.

Again,you really don't get it. ONLY the arm awakens,not the whole warrior!!!
You get it?Irene doesn't risk to awaken even if she awakens her arm,that's the whole point of the technique!

The whole QS arm is human form of awakened arm is a rationalization purely based under the assumption that the QS arm is an awaken arm in the first place. If I do not agree with your basis in the first place, it's not a useful point to support your argument.

The HUGE problem for you is that my (and sure as hell not only mine) rationalization is THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION!!!!
Your theory is absolutely invalid since it can't explain in any way why the arm during the QS goes berserk.
It goes berserk 'cause it's an awakened arm!!!!That's why it's difficult to control!!!
Simply having 100% yoki can't explain in any way this phenomenon,just give up,you are plain wrong on this.

[SagaraSouske]

Let me ask you this:

if QS really is simply awakened arm in human form, why doesn't Clare just always go QOB mode then?

How do you explain the legs awakening first? She practiced QS on her legs?

Why doesn't Irene simply go QOB mode against Teresa? After all, her arm is already awakened during QS according to you?

If Clare can control QS with PYS already, why can't she control her QOB form and can't come back by herself until Jean sacrificed to save her?

The answers to all these questions are quite simple. QS is not awakening at all. Limb awakening is but a step in the process of full awakening. Clare was able to slow down her awakening process to limit to her legs first then arms while most others would fully awaken much faster. She owe to her half awakening more then anything else for being able to do something like that because for most others, crossing the line of no return usually equal to a very fast awakening process into an AB, body and mind. Thus, the other members of Fab4, who also half awakened, should be able to achieve the same partial awakening should they push hard enough.

As for why arm goes berserk, because it is difficult to control the flow of youki when one focus 100% youki release in just the arm. The whole point of Teresa's initial explanation of youki release is about warrior needing to know how much to release and learn to control their youki. It's hardly difficult to understand that 100% release in one arm is going to be extremely difficult to control. Besides, Clare was able to control it after applying PYS.

Conversely, arm going berserk does not indicate it is awakened arm. ABs do not have their limbs going berserk, whether in AB form or human form. The description of QS was worded this way to describe to us that when 100% youki is released in just the arm, it is as if the arm is going to awaken while you try to hold back using the rest of your body and thus becomes difficult to control the movement of the arm. If the arm was already awakened, it would not go berserk.

[Double_friedman]

I have the impression people are getting bored of Claymore. It is clearly not the same enthusiasm as before. Well I just want to re-intrroduce one topic.

As you know, some warriors are particularly good at something and they are known for that ability: Miria's phantom, Jean's Drill sword, Undine the big, etc. However, there are some abilities or techniques so effective that can put a normal warrior in a very high position: like Dust Eater or the Quicksword. As a claymore, Cassie herself stated that she had to resort to her technique in order to defeat the AB that was attacking her friend the cat's face; Roxxie also said Cassie was an average warrior, so it is safe to assume that the Dust Eater was a very strong technique, which clearly molded Cassie's awakened form and made her a very strong AOne.

For Irene, the Quicksword was a strong technique that could even let her stand a chance against Raphaella, which implied how strong and skilled Raph was. Also, Claire was a sucky warrior until she got the QS, which allowed her also to stand a chance against a stronger opponent like Ophelia ABeing.

Back to the zombies...

As a claymore, I think Roxxie didn't get very strong techniques like the Drill, QS or the DEater, which means that actually she was a very powerful warrior by herself without the necessity of resorting to other techniques. What I mean is that Roxxie was (out of 10) 8 normally and reached 8.5 while using the stolen techniques. Unlike Cassie, who was 6.5 and reached 8 while using her Dust Eater. About Hysteria I consider her 7.5 with her technique.

What do you think? How much change do you expect from other warriors?
What about Irene? I think she was 5 and reached 6.5 with her tehcnique.
Jean was 3 and sometimes 5 when using the drill.

[Fermat]

@Double_friedman: I agree with what you've written. I'm a little skeptical about your rankings, though. I usually just put them on equal footing.

When one thinks about it, speed is still the most important statistic. A strength/yoki rating of S is meaningless if you can't land a hit. With this logic, Hysteria, with her godly speed, should be rated the highest. However, Roxanne has shown herself to be pretty fast as well--fast enough to literally vanish, get behind one of the twins and stab her in the face. She also has her yoki-reading ability that might give her a slight edge as it has Teresa and Clare. Cassandra's forte is Dust Eater and nothing else. As you've said, without it, Roxanne and Hysteria would probably hand her her ass should they engage in combat. The surprise element is the most important factor for Cassandra. After that, her lethality diminishes, but she is still formidable while on Dust Eater mode.

So yeah... Equal footing.

As for other claymores... Helen seems to have the greatest power boost among the Ghosts (save for body-part-collecting Clare, of course). Her extendable arms + drill sword is quite formidable--the most powerful single thrust attack given ridiculous range and striking speed. Hell, she was able to land several blows on Isley with it, so it must be pretty good. She's like the Cassandra of the Ghosts.

As for Deneve, I don't know. Dual wielding doesn't seem all that awesome to me. The power boost she gains from it is probably even less than what Roxanne gets from her techniques. So yeah, she's probably the Roxanne of the Ghosts.

About the others... Well, I'm far too uninterested to think about them...

[MalakTawus]

if QS really is simply awakened arm in human form, why doesn't Clare just always go QOB mode then?

Obviously 'cause going that far is quite risky,it doesn't take a genius to understand this,really.
QS is already something that only a monster could control,BUT it's super evident that QoB mode is something that even more crazy to control since (like i have already said),it's the QS concept pushed to the maximum possible.
Claire can now control the QS very easily,but it's freaking obvious that the QoB is more difficult to control.

How do you explain the legs awakening first? She practiced QS on her legs?

First of all her arm was already awakened in human form (she was using QS,remember?),but anyway the only reason why she awakened her legs so suddenly is because SHE WAS FORCED to do so,unless you think it was ok for Claire to let Rig cut off Miria's head.....
Also the concept for awakening the legs is EXACTLY IDENTICAL to the concept to awaken her arm.
Thanx to the QS technique she knows how to focus the yki only in specific parts of her body without letting the energy escape,it doesn't make any difference for her what's the part of the body chosen (as long as it's not the head,lol),all she has to do is the exact same thing.

Why doesn't Irene simply go QOB mode against Teresa? After all, her arm is already awakened during QS according to you?

Another pointless question.....
Irene is not as crazy as Claire so she never dared to even think of doing something a lot more dangerous than the QS (like the QoB),did you really had to ask something so evident?
....not to mention that Irene also didn't know that it's actually possible (if your will is strong enough) to return even if you accidently go over the limit, on the contrary Claire knows this very well.....and she also has the advantage that she is already an half-awakened so her limit is greater than normal warriors.
Also there is the fact that Claire has probably another advantage since she is 75% human instead of 50% human like normal warriors.....

If Clare can control QS with PYS already, why can't she control her QOB form and can't come back by herself until Jean sacrificed to save her?

Yeah,another pointless question for a change!
QoB is MORE difficult to control,A LOT more difficult!
The reason why she was losing control is simply 'cause during the battle she went a bit overboard for being her first try to do something like that,if you forgot Claire risked to lose control even using the simple QS when Riful provoked her (talking about Prissy), she couldn't stop her arm anymore and it was forcing her to awaken.....fortunately Gala helped her.
Against Rigardo Claire had to improvise the QoB mode,it's not surprising that in her first try she was risking to lose herself considering the craziness of that technique,especially since she was emotionally very unstable at that moment since she had just seen a lot of comrades (and friends) being killed right in front of her eyes.
When Claire gets that emotionally unstable,even using the simple QS was very dangerous for her at the beginning (we have actually seen it,it's not that i'm inventing things,lol),now she probably can control the QS even in those situations.

The answers to all these questions are quite simple. QS is not awakening at all.

You fail,as you can see ALL those question were easily answered,did you really think that those questions would strenghten your theory?LOL.
The arm during the QS is basically at the first step of the awakening (since it's still in human form).

Clare was able to slow down her awakening process to limit to her legs first then arms while most others would fully awaken much faster. She owe to her half awakening more then anything else for being able to do something like that because for most others, crossing the line of no return usually equal to a very fast awakening process into an AB, body and mind. Thus, the other members of Fab4, who also half awakened, should be able to achieve the same partial awakening should they push hard enough.

You are making things up since the manga showed very clearly that the whole body awakens at the same time,not just one part at a time.

As for why arm goes berserk, because it is difficult to control the flow of youki when one focus 100% youki release in just the arm. The whole point of Teresa's initial explanation of youki release is about warrior needing to know how much to release and learn to control their youki. It's hardly difficult to understand that 100% release in one arm is going to be extremely difficult to control. Besides, Clare was able to control it after applying PYS.

Hahaha,no that doesn't explains at all why the arm goes berserk,lol.
There is not even a little bit of logical explanation in your theory,and btw when Teresa said that it's important to learn how to control your yoki and know your limit,she is EXACTLY telling that because that's the only way to avoid to risk to pass the limit and awaken,lol.
She is not saying that if you use more yoki your actions risk to go crazy for whatever reason,lol.
The arm during the QS goes berserk 'cause it's gone beyond its limit and its awakened.
Another evidence that the arm is really awakened is that if it wasn't,all Claire had to do to stop the awakening caused by the arm is to let the yoki focused only on the arm distribute also in the rest of her body to lower greatly the concentration.....the big problem instead is that the arm is actually gone beyond the limit and awakened and so it's pulling even the rest of her body to awaken.

[Asimati]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

I don't agree at all.There is no indication that Miria would win,infact Claire with 0% WC was not inferior in any way compared to Miria.The result of the battle would be uncertain.

I would say that the better stats thing is quite important. I remebered one old thing. Since Claire's QS works vs AB Ophelia going all out (even if Ophelia would've won the battle, if she had wanted it), even Flora would be able to do the same. So her WC would defeat Ophelia. Yet Flora's rank is much less.

This is pure speculation following that. WC and QS both have a minor starting powerup that you can see (like speed burst seems to do) and dodging it. Parrying it is not enough obviously, unless you're really fast.

And yes QoB would even beat AB (AO?) Miria easily.It's broken special. It's much stronger than a full awakening is for a normal claymore. Rereading the chapter, Deveave does say that Miria outstat Claire in all ways, but it's Claire's limitless drive that will make the difference (in both directions), that's taken into consideration. WC is not part of drive. I'll be shifting this to uncertain because of Claire's most extreme techniques being very risky.
My personal theory is that Claire got immense potential, that gets released to her every time she half awakes. It's possible that each powerup needs more and more awakening to work.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

What's the point of this?
Also using WC at 100% would basically be something like using QS and WC AT THE SAME TIME....of course it would be something very powerful,but probably impossible to realize it in reality.If it's not impossible,than maybe Claire will really show us something like that in the future,who knows...

I'm trying to compare them to eachother. IIRC WC works in the 0-30% range, while QS is 80-100%. Is this yoki range difference enough or is it more to it powerwise? I think it's enough, but I really got no idea.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Hmmm....i get your point and i admit that your interpretation make a lot of sense.
My only doubt remains on the fact that if you really are right,i don't understand why Miria didn't at least try an "impale attack" (or any attack where she didn't swing her sword but simply kept it still while she moved at phantom-speed),that should have been VERY effective against Rigardo since she wouldn't have the problem to stop and attack giving Rig time to evade.......strange.
If you can give me a clear explanation about this,than i'm sold with your theory since it seems that works quite well with everything else.

Hm. It probably would have the same limitations as the impale attacks Miria actually does vs Hysteria. First, bursts seems to be posible to read just before it starts, enough to make a dodge. Hysteria does it vs Miria after a while, likewise does Rigaldo that vs Claire. Then it's also simple enough to read that it works more as a suecide attack with both dying. At Pieta, Miria simply didn't have the mental state to pull off such an attack, since combat traing is usually based on the idea of surviving.

And Raphaela was indeed an interesting character. Her last thing as a memory inplant will be interesting to see how it plays out.


@Double_friedman

Jean is really hard to stat with the drill. A good hit and you could probably kill any AO with it. The problem is the setup, she's a sitting duck for ages, so her team needs to cover up for her until she can attack. I don't think her drill moved helped that much with her rank. Flora on the other hand would more be a 3 to a 5 with the WC. It's so strong, so she had to have poor stats otherwise for her to have such a low rank.

I'm guessing that Deneave is second in strength, after Helen, but Deneave's real strength is the crazy regen. Since she's immortal vs non-critical hits, so she can afford to lose a few limbs to get a good strike. Miria had to use her teeth, Deneave would simply use her new arms. +1 nowadays, was 0 at Pieta. Dual blade is maybe +0.5.
Helens limb extension is a big bonus. +2
I don't think Cynthia's heal nor good reading gives much of a bonus. Nither does Tabetha's scanning, unless vs Agatha/Riful type of enemies.
Uma throw is a nice sneak attack (no yoki reading possible), but quite poor move in normal combat. +0.5
Miria's phantom is the thing that kept her alive +1.5.
Claire's QoB? +5 or something. Dust Eater got nothing on this one.
Hysteria's elegance is around the same boost as phantom, but say 0,5-1,0 stronger, since she can use it on offense.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Obviously 'cause going that far is quite risky,it doesn't take a genius to understand this,really.
QS is already something that only a monster could control,BUT it's super evident that QoB mode is something that even more crazy to control since (like i have already said),it's the QS concept pushed to the maximum possible.
Claire can now control the QS very easily,but it's freaking obvious that the QoB is more difficult to control.

Where is the risk? If the arm is already awakened, what difference does it make? What risk is there to have human awakened arm or AB awakened arm? Why would it be crazy to control, ABs have no problem controlling their awakened arm at all? You are not answering the question, you are just making assertions.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

First of all her arm was already awakened in human form (she was using QS,remember?),but anyway the only reason why she awakened her legs so suddenly is because SHE WAS FORCED to do so,unless you think it was ok for Claire to let Rig cut off Miria's head.....
Also the concept for awakening the legs is EXACTLY IDENTICAL to the concept to awaken her arm.
Thanx to the QS technique she knows how to focus the yki only in specific parts of her body without letting the energy escape,it doesn't make any difference for her what's the part of the body chosen (as long as it's not the head,lol),all she has to do is the exact same thing.

So then why not use the concept of QS in her leg as she was practice QS in the first place. Since the concept of QS can allow her to send youki and awaken an parts of her body? Why only do it then? Why does she not have an awakened human form leg first but go straight to AB form? It surely would be a lot faster then regular claymore legs. The rationale you use to back up your theory is only possible under the assumption that QS awakens the arm. It's basically like saying because it is white, therefore it is white. You need to base your argument on whether or not the arm is awakened when using QS first.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Another pointless question.....
Irene is not as crazy as Claire so she never dared to even think of doing something a lot more dangerous than the QS (like the QoB),did you really had to ask something so evident?
....not to mention that Irene also didn't know that it's actually possible (if your will is strong enough) to return even if you accidently go over the limit, on the contrary Claire knows this very well.....and she also has the advantage that she is already an half-awakened so her limit is greater than normal warriors.
Also there is the fact that Claire has probably another advantage since she is 75% human instead of 50% human like normal warriors.....

What does crazy has to do with this. According to you the arm is already awakened. Where is the danger going a further step to make them QOB mode. If it is awakened already according to you, Irene can already come back from it. (Contrary to the evidence in the manga but you completely ignore the point anyways). If Irene already awaken her arm all the time and can return from it, what danger is there to go QOB mode on just that arm. After all, an awakened arm is an awakened arm. All this talk of crazy, or dangerous only make sense when her arm is not awakened.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Yeah,another pointless question for a change!
QoB is MORE difficult to control,A LOT more difficult!
The reason why she was losing control is simply 'cause during the battle she went a bit overboard for being her first try to do something like that,if you forgot Claire risked to lose control even using the simple QS when Riful provoked her (talking about Prissy), she couldn't stop her arm anymore and it was forcing her to awaken.....fortunately Gala helped her.
Against Rigardo Claire had to improvise the QoB mode,it's not surprising that in her first try she was risking to lose herself considering the craziness of that technique,especially since she was emotionally very unstable at that moment since she had just seen a lot of comrades (and friends) being killed right in front of her eyes.
When Claire gets that emotionally unstable,even using the simple QS was very dangerous for her at the beginning (we have actually seen it,it's not that i'm inventing things,lol),now she probably can control the QS even in those situations.

Why is QOB mode more difficult to control? The arm is already awakened, there should be no difference in human form or QOB form to control. You don't see ABs have problem controlling their limbs going from human form to AB form. Saying QS is difficult to control and QOB even more so makes far more sense when the arm is not awakened.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

You fail,as you can see ALL those question were easily answered,did you really think that those questions would strenghten your theory?LOL.

You didn't answer any questions. In fact most of your answers either are assertions you make based on the arm is awakened or doesn't make sense when the arm is awakened.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

The arm during the QS is basically at the first step of the awakening (since it's still in human form).
You are making things up since the manga showed very clearly that the whole body awakens at the same time,not just one part at a time.

Most people tends to go from start to awakening to fully awakened really fast. That however does not mean their whole body awakens at the same time. The first claymore that was tortured by Dauf next to Jean awakend her Torso first, then her limbs and head. In fact, even with Jean, it can be argued that only her torso awakened but her arm and legs have not. The fact that she was able to hold off the awakening was the set up for Clare's actions in Pieta. The whole Clare saving Jean from awakening is what made Jean saving Clare in Pieta believable and was intended by Yagi sensei when he wrote it.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Hahaha,no that doesn't explains at all why the arm goes berserk,lol.
There is not even a little bit of logical explanation in your theory,and btw when Teresa said that it's important to learn how to control your yoki and know your limit,she is EXACTLY telling that because that's the only way to avoid to risk to pass the limit and awaken,lol.
She is not saying that if you use more yoki your actions risk to go crazy for whatever reason,lol.
The arm during the QS goes berserk 'cause it's gone beyond its limit and its awakened.
Another evidence that the arm is really awakened is that if it wasn't,all Claire had to do to stop the awakening caused by the arm is to let the yoki focused only on the arm distribute also in the rest of her body to lower greatly the concentration.....the big problem instead is that the arm is actually gone beyond the limit and awakened and so it's pulling even the rest of her body to awaken.

Sure, when an explanation does not suite you, then it contains no logic. Knowing your limit and exactly how much to release is part of youki control(Data book page B-03 have a diagram list the youki control requirements). Controlling QS is also youki control. Both QS and Mirage require very high youki control because both abilities boost them to 100% youki, one in arms other in burst. So are you saying Miria is fully awakened since she uses 100% youki release in bursts? The concept of release 100% youki is same for QS and Mirage, albeit one does it only in arms while other is entire body but in short bursts. If QS awakens the arm, then Mirage makes the user whole body awakens in bursts then pulls back to normal? That makes no sense.

Once arm is awakened it is awakened. There is no limit. A human form awakened arm is the same as QOB awakened arm. The only difference being it takes more youki to maintain AB form for an AB. There is no difference in control. An AB's arm do not go berserk.

For QS Clare does not have to release youki back to the rest of her body. It's hard for her to control precise swings when the arm is in 100% youki release since so much youki is concentrated. That does not mean she pull all the youki from the rest of her body and put into the arm. It's more like she only allow her arm to go 100% release and the rest at 0% release and focus on control that youki in her arm. When she limbs awakens, she is in the process of awakening, which is different problem then controlling her youki to direct where her swings go. This is why combing PYS with QS allow her to direct her QS far more precisely then before because PYS gave her better youki control over her QS. The same diagram on Databook 2 B-03 showed Clare's PYS+QS even have higher youki control then Irene's QS.

[Falcor]

Originally Posted by Fermat

@Double_friedman: I agree with what you've written. I'm a little skeptical about your rankings, though. I usually just put them on equal footing.

When one thinks about it, speed is still the most important statistic. A strength/yoki rating of S is meaningless if you can't land a hit. With this logic, Hysteria, with her godly speed, should be rated the highest. However, Roxanne has shown herself to be pretty fast as well--fast enough to literally vanish, get behind one of the twins and stab her in the face. She also has her yoki-reading ability that might give her a slight edge as it has Teresa and Clare. Cassandra's forte is Dust Eater and nothing else. As you've said, without it, Roxanne and Hysteria would probably hand her her ass should they engage in combat. The surprise element is the most important factor for Cassandra. After that, her lethality diminishes, but she is still formidable while on Dust Eater mode.

So yeah... Equal footing.

I definitely agree with this, especially regarding the importance of speed in battle. Power is greatly overrated; speed trumps power in most situations. If two opponents are equally matched in speed, that is where power becomes the overriding factor. This is something Clare realized when examining the fight following Priscilla's awakening. Noel was the only warrior able to land a blow on Priscilla using her speed. Sophia's power was useless since it dwarfed Priscilla's. Therefore Clare decides to focus on developing her speed, knowing that power-wise she'd never be a match for Priscilla (reference: chapter 101). That is why, of all the ZAOs, the one to be truly wary of is Hysteria. Her speed only increased with her awakening, so unless the Ghosts can find a way to pin her down they're in deep deep shit poo.

[SpiritOfGray]

I completely disagree with strength/Yoki being meaningless. Speed is great, I'm happy to see it getting such respect. But if we go by what Rigardo said in extra scene 3, Isley's speed and strength were greater than Priscilla's. It was her Yoki that defeated him. Alica and Beth also showed great speed and mobility vs Priscilla. Did that take them very far? NOPE.

I will never say speed is not a key factor, but I won't go for saying Hysteria's speed will give her an edge without the yoki to back it up. As we can tell so far, Cassandra has been proving her speed isn't something to laugh at. I can't believe the Dust Eater technique would just be fierce from being a surprise and how unorthodox it is. They know how it works, so how can you chalk that up to surprise? It's a technique that utilizes speed, evasion, and power all in one. Hysteria has put everything into her technique as well...I mean, it was proven to be her own downfall. I think she's the most fragile of the 3 actually. Hysteria has speed and evasion like Cassandra, but she has not proven to be able to use speed and evasion at the same time when someone is on par with her(Unless you count her skill while reading the start of Miria's technique).

But I agree with the equal footing part...as of this chapter at least.

[creb]

Originally Posted by SpiritOfGray

I completely disagree with strength/Yoki being meaningless. Speed is great, I'm happy to see it getting such respect. But if we go by what Rigardo said in extra scene 3, Isley's speed and strength were greater than Priscilla's. It was her Yoki that defeated him. Alica and Beth also showed great speed and mobility vs Priscilla. Did that take them very far? NOPE.

I will never say speed is not a key factor, but I won't go for saying Hysteria's speed will give her an edge without the yoki to back it up. As we can tell so far, Cassandra has been proving her speed isn't something to laugh at. I can't believe the Dust Eater technique would just be fierce from being a surprise and how unorthodox it is. They know how it works, so how can you chalk that up to surprise? It's a technique that utilizes speed, evasion, and power all in one. Hysteria has put everything into her technique as well...I mean, it was proven to be her own downfall. I think she's the most fragile of the 3 actually. Hysteria has speed and evasion like Cassandra, but she has not proven to be able to use speed and evasion at the same time when someone is on par with her(Unless you count her skill while reading the start of Miria's technique).

But I agree with the equal footing part...as of this chapter at least.

They are meaningless. The only thing that matters is Plot Armor and Plot Sword. Yoki strength, speed, etc, are only meaningful for keeping the Claymore discussion threads alive over the course of each month in-between chapters.

[Fermat]

@SpiritofGrey: I have to admit, I shouldn't have added yoki there. Indeed, one can win by virtue of simply outlasting your opponent. I'm sorry, a Hysteria vs one of the other two resurrected warriors battle was raging in my mind at the time, at which time, I dismissed yoki, since I thought they should be about the same rating for the said statistic. I still maintain my statement about strength, though.

Also, I wasn't, in any way, undermining the Dust Eater. I said that its lethality decreases once the surprise factor is out of the way, but I didn't imply that it was weak. During the initial attack, Dust Eater's killing potential is nearly unmatched. E.g. In a Hysteria vs Cassandra fight, I estimate that Hysteria is still faster than Cassandra in Dust Eater mode, so assuming all other factors to be equal, Hysteria would probably win if she manages to evade the surprising first array of attacks. If Cassandra succeeds in chopping of Hysteria's legs with the initial Dust Eater blow, then the match is all but hers.

This is what I meant by Dust Eater's lethality diminishing. Of course, warriors of lower caliber than Hysteria (and that list is superfluous) probably wouldn't be able to match Cassandra's speed while in Dust Eater mode, so the surprise factor is irrelevant to them, as they'll be mincemeat anyway whether they've seen it before or not.

Using Double_friedman's scoring, I'd say Hysteria's bonus with Elegance is about +2; Cassandra, with her Dust Eater, perhaps a whopping +3 or +3.5 for the initial set of attacks and a +2.5 thereafter.

[MalakTawus]

@Asimati
Stats are important,but they are not everything.
Why should we consider Deneve's words more important than what we actually see with our own eyes?
Also it's clear that Deneve is ALWAYS biased in Miria's favor,she said similar things in the past and in the end it was always Claire to save their necks,lol.
IIRC Deneve is also the one that said that Miria has more potential than Claire, and we know for certain that that's BS....

And for what you said about Flora and Claire....well,remember that Claire compared to Flora could use also her prediction ability,so against ABs they weren't really on the same level.

For the WC,i'd say it should work quite well even above 30%, i think it should work with no problems at least untill the limit. The WC obviously can't work well as soon as the arm goes berserk since it requires very precise movements.

Hm. It probably would have the same limitations as the impale attacks Miria actually does vs Hysteria. First, bursts seems to be posible to read just before it starts, enough to make a dodge. Hysteria does it vs Miria after a while, likewise does Rigaldo that vs Claire. Then it's also simple enough to read that it works more as a suecide attack with both dying. At Pieta, Miria simply didn't have the mental state to pull off such an attack, since combat traing is usually based on the idea of surviving.

It makes sense,especially since Miria herself said (fighting against Histy) that she didn't have that kind of resolve during her fight with Rigardo,maybe she was afraid to use such a risky tactic.

And Raphaela was indeed an interesting character. Her last thing as a memory inplant will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I hope Yagi will show her again in some of the memories taken by Claire,maybe explaining what happened to Irene,or maybe some past encounter between Raph and Teresa.....
Oh Yagi,Yagi,how could you waste like that such an interesting character?
Raph was especially interesting since she is not the typical good or evil character,she gave the idea of being in the grey zone and i like those kind of characters since they generally can play outside the rules and change the story in a very unpredictable direction.
Well,thinking about it,Raph was actually REALLY able to affect drastically the story,but it's still disapointing (for me at least) that she had so little "space" in this manga .

@SagaraSouske

Where is the risk? If the arm is already awakened, what difference does it make? What risk is there to have human awakened arm or AB awakened arm? Why would it be crazy to control, ABs have no problem controlling their awakened arm at all? You are not answering the question, you are just making assertions.

The risk of an "AB awakened arm" is obviously greater since that transformation is possible only if the mind of the warrior "let the arm change form",so it's basically a successive step for the awakened arm.
In other words it means that the mind of the warrior gives the arm more freedom,and this logically means that it's more difficult when you have to "take back that freedom".
The more far you let your arm go,the more difficult is to take it back,logical.

if you also consider that compared to a normal QS the QoB mode consist in 4 limbs (not only 1).....

So then why not use the concept of QS in her leg as she was practice QS in the first place. Since the concept of QS can allow her to send youki and awaken an parts of her body? Why only do it then? Why does she not have an awakened human form leg first but go straight to AB form? It surely would be a lot faster then regular claymore legs. The rationale you use to back up your theory is only possible under the assumption that QS awakens the arm. It's basically like saying because it is white, therefore it is white. You need to base your argument on whether or not the arm is awakened when using QS first.

This is very easily explained,infact there could be more than one reason to this.
First of all you are clearly doing a BIG mistake.Like i have said before, to keep an awakened arm in human form you have to control it MORE (not less!) than the "AB awakened arm" (i call it like you did for simplicity,we know what we are talking about).
The AB awakened arm has more freedom,it's not the other way around.
You get it what this means,right?
Having multiple awakened limbs in human form is actually A LOT MORE DIFFICULT than having multiple awakened limbs in AB form!!! (of course an AB arm is more risky since it will pull the warrior even more towards the awakening)
The QoB mode already requires an absurd control, but what you suggested is actualy even more crazy.Sure with your idea it should be more easy to return "normal" and it surely has the advantage of being less risky than the QoB mode,the only problem is that requires an amount of control that is simply too much,surely at an impossible level for Claire at that time.
Add to that the fact that at Pieta she tried doing that just because she was basically forced (it's not like she planned it,lol) by the desperate situation and so it was her FIRST TIME doing something that crazy (i doubt that before Rigardo she thought that someday she would have done something as crazy as the QoB mode,lol. It just happened 'cause the situation pushed her to go crazy).
As if this wasn't enough you shouldn't understimate the fact that at that time her control over her youma energy was particularly difficult for Claire since she saw her friends die before her,so your suggestion of a multiple awakened limbs in human form is even more impossible since she wasn't emotionally stable (even if personally i belive it was already enough impossible even without this other problem,lol).

You didn't answer any questions. In fact most of your answers either are assertions you make based on the arm is awakened or doesn't make sense when the arm is awakened.

Ok.....

Most people tends to go from start to awakening to fully awakened really fast. That however does not mean their whole body awakens at the same time. The first claymore that was tortured by Dauf next to Jean awakend her Torso first, then her limbs and head. In fact, even with Jean, it can be argued that only her torso awakened but her arm and legs have not.

Ok,it really seems we see two completely different things,lol.

The fact that she was able to hold off the awakening was the set up for Clare's actions in Pieta. The whole Clare saving Jean from awakening is what made Jean saving Clare in Pieta believable and was intended by Yagi sensei when he wrote it.

And this why should be a problem for my theory?
Jean's action have that meaning even for me,you know? It's not that your interpretation is needed to give that meaning to Jean's actions,lol.

Sure, when an explanation does not suite you, then it contains no logic. Knowing your limit and exactly how much to release is part of youki control(Data book page B-03 have a diagram list the youki control requirements). Controlling QS is also youki control. Both QS and Mirage require very high youki control because both abilities boost them to 100% youki, one in arms other in burst. So are you saying Miria is fully awakened since she uses 100% youki release in bursts? The concept of release 100% youki is same for QS and Mirage, albeit one does it only in arms while other is entire body but in short bursts. If QS awakens the arm, then Mirage makes the user whole body awakens in bursts then pulls back to normal? That makes no sense.

You really don't get it.
All you said here is not relevant at all since the key problem in your theory in not there,lol.
One thing is being able to control yoki to perform a technique,and one thing is saying that if you use too much yoki your limbs go berserk.
It's not the same thing at all,and if you don't get it it's your fault ,not mine.
There is NO LOGICAL REASON why using too many yoki an arm could lose control beside the fact that that arm is losing control BECAUSE IT'S AWAKENING!!!
It's not that the problem of controlling the QS is because there is a lot of energy so the strikes are hard to control "in the sense of controlling the trajectory of the sword"!!!!!!
The control-problem for the QS has a completely different nature,and Irene explains it very clearly:
the QS' "control problem" is because the arm GOES BERSERK and since it goes beyond the limit and awakens it TRY TO PULL the rest of the body to also awaken,so the warrior has to be very careful to avoid that the awakened arm influence the rest of the body.
The arm goes berserk! Do you even know what this means?It can't be explained simply saying that it is caused since there is a lot of energy. Energy alone can't let an arm goes berserk,the problem is that that energy is actually YOUMA ENERGY so it's DEEPLY connected to the awakening!!!
That's why your theory is plain wrong,not just because i don't like it,but simply because it's illogical.

The concept of release 100% youki is same for QS and Mirage

Ok with yoki burst,but.......100% release???For the mirage???Yeah right.....
Hahahahahaha,how the hell did you come ou with that?Mirage technique has nothing to do with 100% release,you invented this right now,lol. The yoki release is surely NOT 100%,it's not even above the limit,lol.
About the Mirage,it's never (NEVER!!!)said or hinted that Miria's techniques requires any part of Miria going above the limit,so you are basically creating an useless problem where obviously there is no problem.
NOTHING during the Mirage goes above the limit,so logically all the problems connected to the QS technique are not present during the Mirage technique.

Once arm is awakened it is awakened. There is no limit. A human form awakened arm is the same as QOB awakened arm. The only difference being it takes more youki to maintain AB form for an AB. There is no difference in control.

Of course there is difference in control.....the simple fact that an arm reach the AB form is obviously 'cause the mind of the warrior gave that arm "more freedom".
Of course giving that arm more freedom also means that it's more difficult to revert it back.

An AB's arm do not go berserk.

I guess that Jean was stabbed by something that doesn't exist.

When she limbs awakens, she is in the process of awakening, which is different problem then controlling her youki to direct where her swings go. This is why combing PYS with QS allow her to direct her QS far more precisely then before because PYS gave her better youki control over her QS. The same diagram on Databook 2 B-03 showed Clare's PYS+QS even have higher youki control then Irene's QS.

This is what you really don't get it!
Before using PSY it's not that the QS had poor precision,it didn't have precision at all!!!!
The arm goes berserk during QS! Berserk!!!You now what this means??? It doesn't mean poor precision,it means ZERO precision!!!
The normal QS simply goes berserk and destroys EVERYTHING in it's path,simple as that.
The arm is awakened and in a sense is like it's a wild animal going berserk,the PSY is basically like putting reins on that wild beast to control it somehow giving the QS some sort of precision that btw is not even a "real" precision,infact all Claire can do is forcing the QS to follow or avoid determinated yoki flows,beside that the arm is free to go berserk and destroy everything on its path (like before).

[FormerAbyssalone]

Well I haven't had much time to read through this huge debate, but I'll say this I really dig Roxanne's awakend form. To be honest it reminds me of cleopatra for some reason and I know hysteria's form isn't grand and all but its kinda cool and after all she is an actual abyssal one.

Roxanne u could say isn't a AO she was #2 before and cassandra did say she was just a lowly #2.

[Double_friedman]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

@Asimati
Stats are important,but they are not everything.
Why should we consider Deneve's words more important than what we actually see with our own eyes?
Also it's clear that Deneve is ALWAYS biased in Miria's favor,she said similar things in the past and in the end it was always Claire to save their necks,lol.
IIRC Deneve is also the one that said that Miria has more potential than Claire, and we know for certain that that's BS....

And for what you said about Flora and Claire....well,remember that Claire compared to Flora could use also her prediction ability,so against ABs they weren't really on the same level.

For the WC,i'd say it should work quite well even above 30%, i think it should work with no problems at least untill the limit. The WC obviously can't work well as soon as the arm goes berserk since it requires very precise movements.


It makes sense,especially since Miria herself said (fighting against Histy) that she didn't have that kind of resolve during her fight with Rigardo,maybe she was afraid to use such a risky tactic.


I hope Yagi will show her again in some of the memories taken by Claire,maybe explaining what happened to Irene,or maybe some past encounter between Raph and Teresa.....
Oh Yagi,Yagi,how could you waste like that such an interesting character?
Raph was especially interesting since she is not the typical good or evil character,she gave the idea of being in the grey zone and i like those kind of characters since they generally can play outside the rules and change the story in a very unpredictable direction.
Well,thinking about it,Raph was actually REALLY able to affect drastically the story,but it's still disapointing (for me at least) that she had so little "space" in this manga .

@SagaraSouske


The risk of an "AB awakened arm" is obviously greater since that transformation is possible only if the mind of the warrior "let the arm change form",so it's basically a successive step for the awakened arm.
In other words it means that the mind of the warrior gives the arm more freedom,and this logically means that it's more difficult when you have to "take back that freedom".
The more far you let your arm go,the more difficult is to take it back,logical.

if you also consider that compared to a normal QS the QoB mode consist in 4 limbs (not only 1).....


This is very easily explained,infact there could be more than one reason to this.
First of all you are clearly doing a BIG mistake.Like i have said before, to keep an awakened arm in human form you have to control it MORE (not less!) than the "AB awakened arm" (i call it like you did for simplicity,we know what we are talking about).
The AB awakened arm has more freedom,it's not the other way around.
You get it what this means,right?
Having multiple awakened limbs in human form is actually A LOT MORE DIFFICULT than having multiple awakened limbs in AB form!!! (of course an AB arm is more risky since it will pull the warrior even more towards the awakening)
The QoB mode already requires an absurd control, but what you suggested is actualy even more crazy.Sure with your idea it should be more easy to return "normal" and it surely has the advantage of being less risky than the QoB mode,the only problem is that requires an amount of control that is simply too much,surely at an impossible level for Claire at that time.
Add to that the fact that at Pieta she tried doing that just because she was basically forced (it's not like she planned it,lol) by the desperate situation and so it was her FIRST TIME doing something that crazy (i doubt that before Rigardo she thought that someday she would have done something as crazy as the QoB mode,lol. It just happened 'cause the situation pushed her to go crazy).
As if this wasn't enough you shouldn't understimate the fact that at that time her control over her youma energy was particularly difficult for Claire since she saw her friends die before her,so your suggestion of a multiple awakened limbs in human form is even more impossible since she wasn't emotionally stable (even if personally i belive it was already enough impossible even without this other problem,lol).


Ok.....


Ok,it really seems we see two completely different things,lol.


And this why should be a problem for my theory?
Jean's action have that meaning even for me,you know? It's not that your interpretation is needed to give that meaning to Jean's actions,lol.



You really don't get it.
All you said here is not relevant at all since the key problem in your theory in not there,lol.
One thing is being able to control yoki to perform a technique,and one thing is saying that if you use too much yoki your limbs go berserk.
It's not the same thing at all,and if you don't get it it's your fault ,not mine.
There is NO LOGICAL REASON why using too many yoki an arm could lose control beside the fact that that arm is losing control BECAUSE IT'S AWAKENING!!!
It's not that the problem of controlling the QS is because there is a lot of energy so the strikes are hard to control "in the sense of controlling the trajectory of the sword"!!!!!!
The control-problem for the QS has a completely different nature,and Irene explains it very clearly:
the QS' "control problem" is because the arm GOES BERSERK and since it goes beyond the limit and awakens it TRY TO PULL the rest of the body to also awaken,so the warrior has to be very careful to avoid that the awakened arm influence the rest of the body.
The arm goes berserk! Do you even know what this means?It can't be explained simply saying that it is caused since there is a lot of energy. Energy alone can't let an arm goes berserk,the problem is that that energy is actually YOUMA ENERGY so it's DEEPLY connected to the awakening!!!
That's why your theory is plain wrong,not just because i don't like it,but simply because it's illogical.


Ok with yoki burst,but.......100% release???For the mirage???Yeah right.....
Hahahahahaha,how the hell did you come ou with that?Mirage technique has nothing to do with 100% release,you invented this right now,lol. The yoki release is surely NOT 100%,it's not even above the limit,lol.
About the Mirage,it's never (NEVER!!!)said or hinted that Miria's techniques requires any part of Miria going above the limit,so you are basically creating an useless problem where obviously there is no problem.
NOTHING during the Mirage goes above the limit,so logically all the problems connected to the QS technique are not present during the Mirage technique.


Of course there is difference in control.....the simple fact that an arm reach the AB form is obviously 'cause the mind of the warrior gave that arm "more freedom".
Of course giving that arm more freedom also means that it's more difficult to revert it back.


I guess that Jean was stabbed by something that doesn't exist.


This is what you really don't get it!
Before using PSY it's not that the QS had poor precision,it didn't have precision at all!!!!
The arm goes berserk during QS! Berserk!!!You now what this means??? It doesn't mean poor precision,it means ZERO precision!!!
The normal QS simply goes berserk and destroys EVERYTHING in it's path,simple as that.
The arm is awakened and in a sense is like it's a wild animal going berserk,the PSY is basically like putting reins on that wild beast to control it somehow giving the QS some sort of precision that btw is not even a "real" precision,infact all Claire can do is forcing the QS to follow or avoid determinated yoki flows,beside that the arm is free to go berserk and destroy everything on its path (like before).

Ha, lol 2x, in sum, Deneve is a bitch who's jealous of Claire's potential and since she knows she sucks hard vis-à-vis Claire and that the only warrior able to give Claire some problems is Miria, she will always belittle Claire's abilities compared to Miria's.

Originally Posted by FormerAbyssalone

Well I haven't had much time to read through this huge debate, but I'll say this I really dig Roxanne's awakend form. To be honest it reminds me of cleopatra for some reason and I know hysteria's form isn't grand and all but its kinda cool and after all she is an actual abyssal one.

Roxanne u could say isn't a AO she was #2 before and cassandra did say she was just a lowly #2.

Yeah, but strong enough to easily defeat a dust eater-less Cassie. Also, Priscilla was never number 1; and we don't know about Riful (maybe she once was number 2). Luciella's abilities were the same as Raphaella's, so you could say either that Luciella was not really an AOne or that Raph had the potential to become AOne.

Exactly what is an AOne? A number one that awakened regardles of her actual abilities?

[SagaraSouske]

@Malak. You make statements like "to keep an awakened arm in human form you have to control it MORE (not less!) than the 'AB awakened arm'" without explaining at all why it needs more control and completely does not match with how we see AB control their limbs. Or self contradicting statements like "The risk of an 'AB awakened arm' is obviously greater since that transformation is possible only if the mind of the warrior 'let the arm change form',so it's basically a successive step for the awakened arm." when you disagree with the point that awakening can take steps and one does not instantly awakened fully. And your way of calling out my argument having no logic is simply a rehash of your assumption: because the arm awakened -> anything explains how the arm go berserk without it awakening has no logical basis.

"Having multiple awakened limbs in human form is actually A LOT MORE DIFFICULT than having multiple awakened limbs in AB form!!!" when we see Riful effortlessly control her awakened arm in human form. Or what you really mean is "trying to prevent oneself from fully awakening is a lot more difficult then having multiple awakened limbs in AB form." Then it becomes of question of not because AB form limbs are more difficult to control to non AB form awakened limbs but rather one of it is hard to pull back from awakening. My logic was a simple comparison of AB using their limbs in awakened form vs their human form having no difference in control. Therefore, an awakened limb in QOB form vs human form as you say should also be no more difficult to control. If the arm is already awaken, the ease of change in the awakened body parts for Clare should be the same as AB changing theirs. Remember the rest of the body is used to control the berserk arm with full youki release, not to control one self from awakening. You are implying otherwise.

As for Miria's Mirage(Phantom): Databook 2 page B-02: (rough translation)
Mirage(Phantom): Instantaneously raise youki to allow burst acceleration of one's body to achieve high speed. The speed can create an after image. With speed that can even exceeds awakened beings, this skill require raising youki level to the limit and then back to normal to create that burst of speed, it takes a heavy tow both mentally and physically, cannot be used too many times.

Then on the Diagram on page B-03, Mirage(Phantom) is shown to have a minimum youki level of 60 - 80%. This is the range where an average measure is taken on the power of the technique performed. It is possible to exceed that level for all the techniques listed in the graph. We often see Miria going beyond her normal endurance for Mirage - especially in the fight against Hysteria. It will then require her to release bursts of beyond her limit and close to 100% to fight against Hysteria.

Then finally back to the original description of QS, since you base your entire line of argument on this. When Irene explain the nature of QS to Clare, she clearly said:" The secret behind QS is complete youki release in one's arm. One way to describe it, it is as if you let your arm awaken. Therefore, QS is basically a technique that use the rest of your body to control your arm that went berserk due to full youki release..." Databook 2 gives an identical description without mentioning the as if awakening part. You entire basis of argument is based on how Irene describe QS is like but not actually what it is. Irene never said the arm actually awakens.

Let's also conveniently ignore Irene never half awakened even though QS require her to awaken her arm. Teresa, who precisely commented on Priscilla going pass the 80% limit, also never commented on Irene awakening her arm when she blocked all of Irene's QS. This is after giving a big lecture to Priscilla about the importance of knowing how much to release and not risk going pass the point of return. Isn't it a bit strange to completely ignore an awakened arm? Isn't it also strange that Galatea, who sensed from mountains away Deneve going pass her limit to heal her wound and yet make nothing of Clare's QS in their fight together against Dauf? Isn't it also what Irene said to Clare that her own arm can only produce 1/10th of QS power and the arm Clare used QS to great effect is in fact Irene's, which means applying your so called QS awakening to her legs and other arm, they would have 1/10 of the effectiveness?

Anyways, I am sure you will resort to the same type of response to either ignore my points completely or argue from the basis of the arm is awakened, therefore xxxxx. I think if after all these you cannot at least have a reasonable doubt to re-examine your hypothesis, there is no point in continue this discussion since no matter what anyone says, you will continue to hold on to your view.

[Falcor]

Originally Posted by SpiritOfGray

I completely disagree with strength/Yoki being meaningless. Speed is great, I'm happy to see it getting such respect. But if we go by what Rigardo said in extra scene 3, Isley's speed and strength were greater than Priscilla's. It was her Yoki that defeated him. Alica and Beth also showed great speed and mobility vs Priscilla. Did that take them very far? NOPE.

I don't dismiss power level/youki as meaningless - just overrated. Most arguments start and end with power levels with little or no mention of speed. Obviously Priscilla is more than able to apply her power, since her speed is easily on par with the AOs, despite Rigardo's beliefs. The only way to beat her is to be faster than her, since her power level is nigh unattainable.

Originally Posted by creb

They are meaningless. The only thing that matters is Plot Armor and Plot Sword. Yoki strength, speed, etc, are only meaningful for keeping the Claymore discussion threads alive over the course of each month in-between chapters.

LMAO - touché.