[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 454 Discussion

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Isn't bad per se, perhaps i used a bad example. Perhaps a better example is Urahara and Isshin... from the very beginning we don't know what they're doing.

I know that this is very subjective, perhaps in another manga i could agree with you. But in Bleach, after hundreds of chapters, i can't.

Fair enough. It is one thing to be ambiguous (ala Tsukishima and Ginjou) to add mystery and suspense/tension, but it is another to drag out a mystery that has no suspense (like your example of Urahara and Isshin) and creates little tension (I'm reminded of the whole "Who is Tobi" debate in the Naruto sub-forum; I don't think many posters even care who the character is anymore, they just want the mystery to be solved so the story can move on).

[sayde]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Why should they care if one human kills another human?
It's nothing Shinigami should worry about; it happens all the time.

No. Humans killing humans without the use of spiritual-based abilities happens all the time. Ichigo is not just an ordinary human. He's half human, half shinigami. Even when he lost his powers, one could argue that he was still half-shinigami by virtue of the fact that he was born that way on top of the fact that he never fully rid himself of shinigami-based reiatsu.

So we're talking about an ex-substitute shinigami with reawakened shinigami reiatsu potentially killing a human being with recently acquired hollow-based powers. Central 46 would already have reason enough to take him in just for making the decision to become a hollow-shinigami hybrid. But for all we know, the act of killing a human being with such powers may be deemed more offensive and threatening than a normal hollow killing a human. In other words, this could be the act that officially brands Ichigo a threat to the human world.

[JustRob]

Who's to say Tsukishima is human? We don't know the origin of Fullbringer powers, except that they were born that way. Being able to use reiatsu, the exceptional abilities Fullbringers have... I wouldn't say that's completely human.

Also the scenes with Kisuke and Isshin are freaking killing me. What the hell are they up to?

[sayde]

Originally Posted by JustRob

Who's to say Tsukishima is human? We don't know the origin of Fullbringer powers, except that they were born that way

Kubo explained the origin of their powers on top of confirming that they're humans with hollow-based abilities when Ginjou told us that the fullbringers are the product of parents who were attacked by hollows. So there's no reason to suspect Tsukishima to be anything more than another human with hollow powers until proven otherwise.

Originally Posted by JustRob

Being able to use reiatsu, the exceptional abilities Fullbringers have... I wouldn't say that's completely human.

And I'm saying it doesn't matter. So long as Tsukishima has a human for a biological parent, that would still make him at least part human by default, regardless of whatever supernatural abilities he may possess. So to kill him could still easily be regarded as tantamount to killing a human being.

*edit*
Of course Kubo could reveal Tsukishima to be anything but human at any time he wants. But keep in mind, I'm fully aware of the fact that I'm only supporting a mere possibility based solely on the information we've been given up till this point.

[JustRob]

Hmmm well human or no human, what does it matter in the end. Tsukishima obviously has a very dangerous power and he's using it to directly influence and interfere with the world of the living. It reminds me a bit of the Quincy and the Bounto, and it's still something Shinigami should be concerned about. Having said that, it strikes me as odd that we haven't heard from the Gotei 13 up until now.

Human or no human, Tsukishima is up to no good. We've seen for a fact that he has altered the memories of living beings.

[Alchemist007]

I like how we don't really know anything about jack all yet.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by JustRob

Human or no human, Tsukishima is up to no good. We've seen for a fact that he has altered the memories of living beings.

True. That's one of the advantages we (as the readers) get from seeing things from Ichigo's perspective. It's clear he's up to no good (at least for now). But it's funny to imagine how Ichigo's defense would stand up in central46's courtroom.

"Well...uhh...you see...uhh...well...there's this guy, right? He...uhh...well...he was using this ability to...uhh...make all MY friends also HIS friends...and so...uhh...well...I HAD TO KILL HIM!!! I MEAN WHAT ELSE WOULD U HAVE ME DO!?!?!?!?!?!?! PLEASE FORGIVE ME!!!!"

[Chiisai Kuma]

DAMN KUBO! he made me think i was gonna get a chpt with urahara in it. he gave me 2 pages!!! GODAMN THAT TROLL on a side note mansion at the end, bount arc much?

[Alchemist007]

Reminded me of Twilight...

[Sabaku Kyu]

Once again, scenes with Urahara and Isshin keep me interested. I'm not sure what to think about Yukio's mansion. Given his powers, the inside of it could be a very weird funhouse-type place. I'd rather avoid the heroes having to find their way through another maze/palace like Las Noches.

Originally Posted by sayde

So we're talking about an ex-substitute shinigami with reawakened shinigami reiatsu potentially killing a human being with recently acquired hollow-based powers. Central 46 would already have reason enough to take him in just for making the decision to become a hollow-shinigami hybrid. But for all we know, the act of killing a human being with such powers may be deemed more offensive and threatening than a normal hollow killing a human. In other words, this could be the act that officially brands Ichigo a threat to the human world.

I think Ichigo bringing up killing Tsukishima was mostly so we get that breaking the spell is not as simple as making Tsukihima take a dirt nap. Despite what Ginjou said, there's very little chance of Ichigo killing him now that it's established not to be a sure solution (hence Ichigo not getting a chance to answer Ginjou's question about whether he's willing to kill or not).

I'd bet the solution to all this has something to do with that glowy-zanpakuto thing Isshin's carrying.

[Endrance]

As entertaining as ichigo's dilemma is im going crazy wondering what in the world is going on with urahara and issin already and what was up with that glowy sword? Gotta say been awhile since i couldnt stand waiting for the next chapter.

[Fran~]

I've been thinking about that "This is the site of the Final Battle...!" from the last page...
What is thinking Kubo?. Isshin and Uruhara along with Ishida will go there too to battle against Tsukishima too?.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I think Ichigo bringing up killing Tsukishima was mostly so we get that breaking the spell is not as simple as making Tsukihima take a dirt nap.

True. But no one can deny that Ichigo at least thought about it (since he was the one to initially bring up the idea of killing Tsukishima in the first place).

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Despite what Ginjou said, there's very little chance of Ichigo killing him now that it's established not to be a sure solution (hence Ichigo not getting a chance to answer Ginjou's question about whether he's willing to kill or not).

I don't know...like I said before, it's a slippery slope. Did you see that close-up panel of Ichigo's face where he popped the question on pg 12? That was that "enter-the-darkside" look. For the rest of the chapter, he was pulling an Anakin complete with bags and dark rings under & around his eyes. He's slowly evolving into a true bonafide villain. lol

But seriously, I could see Ichigo going in for the kill (after much thought) just to have someone interrupt the blow. Much like how Kishi has spared Sasuke from officially killing off anyone that would put him beyond redemption, I suppose it's not very likely at all for Kubo to have Ichigo do something that would push him over that line-of-no-return. But still, just the fact that he was willing to consider it is pretty damn interesting IMO as it shows a potential shift in change in Ichigo's personality.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Fran~

I've been thinking about that "This is the site of the Final Battle...!" from the last page...
What is thinking Kubo?. Isshin and Uruhara along with Ishida will go there too to battle against Tsukishima too?.

End of the chapter captions can't be trusted. I doubt we're anywhere near a final confrontation. But Ishida's probably going to get involved soon.

Originally Posted by sayde

I don't know...like I said before, it's a slippery slope. Did you see that close-up panel of Ichigo's face where he popped the question on pg 12? That was that "enter-the-darkside" look. For the rest of the chapter, he was pulling an Anakin complete with bags and dark rings under & around his eyes. He's slowly evolving into a true bonafide villain. lol

He did look grim, but it came across to me more as desperation and exasperation. I didn't really see anything villainous about it, it's not like he was thinking about revenge or experiencing bloodlust, he just wants to know how to break the spell on his friends and killing Tsukishima is the most obvious answer. Ruthless? Sure. But frankly, that'd be the first thought that popped into my head if I were in his position. Of course, that's just from what I've seen so far. This could turn out to be a lot more personal for Ichigo.

But seriously, I could see Ichigo going in for the kill (after much thought) just to have someone interrupt the blow. Much like how Kishi has spared Sasuke from officially killing off anyone that would put him beyond redemption.

Ichigo fought Aizen with the intention of killing him, so it's not like lethal force has never been an option for him. Still, he's a shounen hero. When all is said and done, you're right. His hands can't get too dirty.

[Primary Consult]

Originally Posted by sayde

So we're talking about an ex-substitute shinigami with reawakened shinigami reiatsu potentially killing a human being with recently acquired hollow-based powers. Central 46 would already have reason enough to take him in just for making the decision to become a hollow-shinigami hybrid. But for all we know, the act of killing a human being with such powers may be deemed more offensive and threatening than a normal hollow killing a human. In other words, this could be the act that officially brands Ichigo a threat to the human world.

There is one flaw in that logic though... The Shinigami are quite okay with killing humans (with power) that go against their ideology. See: Quincy. He'd probably at most get a stern word or two and be sent merrily on his way.

I'm pretty sure he won't do it, though, so we'll probably never know for sure either way.

[GreatTeacherKen]

This seems to be more of a transition chapter than anything else as it's mostly Ichigo and Ginjo discussing what to do next and it looks they're going to have to confront Tsukishima soon.

I wonder if those scenes with Isshin and Urahara discussing have anything to do with Tsukishima. I suspect that they haven't been brainwashed; if they had been, it probably would have been shown in previous chapters to increase the 'oh crap' factor considering how powerful they are. Not to mention that Isshin has been conspicuously absent from his home. Perhaps they'll help out in the upcoming battle?

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Ichigo fought Aizen with the intention of killing him, so it's not like lethal force has never been an option for him.

Yep. He's definitely gone on record for stating that he intended to kill Aizen...who was a spiritual being (not a human) clearly acknowledged by all of Soul Society to be a major threat that needed to be stopped. But now things are a little different. Even before when he was forced to do battle against Zaraki, Byakuya, Dordoni, Grimmjow, or Ulquiorra, he wasn't necessarily out to kill any of them as much as he was trying to defeat them. Aizen was the first one he intended to kill for good reasons, and now Tsukishima is the first one he's *considering* killing for reasons that aren't completely justifiable. There's a potential progression to be noticed here along that slippery slope.

Originally Posted by Primary Consult

There is one flaw in that logic though... The Shinigami are quite okay with killing humans (with power) that go against their ideology. See: Quincy. He'd probably at most get a stern word or two and be sent merrily on his way.

Sorry. I'm not seeing the flaw in the logic nor relation between the two. Shinigami are only given permission to kill a human after being granted an order to do so as was stated in the first chapter of the series. Normally it's expressly forbidden. In the case of the Quincy's, those orders were backed by clear and justifiable reasons. In fact, not even Ishida himself was able to blame the shinigami for what they did. Quincy's killed hollows (not humans) and in the process of doing so, they were offsetting a balance that would've led to the destruction of the world. That's not so much ideology as it is a fact.

On the other hand, a hypothetical instance of a human/ex-shinigami possessing a combination of powers that central46 has openly expressed extreme fear and loathing towards, and then using that power to attempt to kill a living human (without first being granted any permission to do so) is an entirely different story. What's more is that the perpetrator would be the same being who's managed to prove to all Soul Society that if given the powers in question (that they fear so much), his potential strength far surpasses anything Soul Society could contain. For all intents and purposes, it's easy for me to see why the higher powers that be would potentially become very weary of Ichigo even if he had no intentions of committing manslaughter in the end. However the act of doing so (or even attempting to do so) using the powers he's gained, could make him officially a threat in the eyes of the authoritative figures in question.

[neshru]

So the guy has the ability to manipulate people's past and he's managed to change Ichigo's friends. Okay. So... why does this matter? It may be an annoyance to Ichigo, but how does that affect the big picture?

[GreatTeacherKen]

^^

At this stage, it's still hard to say how this arc fits into the big picture. Hopefully we'll get some clues and answers in the upcoming chapters.

Tsukishima is still a mysterious character; the only things we know for sure about him is that he's targeting Ichigo and his friends, he's a Fullbringer who's familiar with Ginjo and co., and some idea of how his power works.

Everything else about him is up to speculation so far.

[Sinta]

Seems like a stupid power to me. What's the point? You insert yourself into everyones' lives and then....yeah i don't see it.