[Manga] Naruto Chapter 576 Discussion

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

How it could have turned out is fairly irrelevant. The fact is that Kishi has always made the Will of Fire speech a precursor to some kind of victory, even if the character saying it does die in the process or it's only a relative victory.

that line of thinking is fine if the situation turns out ok in you favor. i am talking about the fact that if you look at these events in a more realistic p.o.v. you have to admit luck plays a big factor. of course luck in the naruto world is called will of fire.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Yes the tragedy is at the core of Sasuke's life, but how he can deal with that trauma was still up in the air. There are MANY different ways people deal with tragedy. Sometimes its hate-filled vengeance, other times is simply wallowing in depression and other times its a more idealistic forgive and forget. With the right guidance, Sasuke could have been placed on a path that would provide him with a healthy outlet for all of his pain and put him on the path of recovery... but the negative influence of Itachi and those villians instead put him on a hate filled path.

[...]

the best thing they could have done for sasuke was probably make kakashi his guardian right away... while sasuke still goes through the academy Kakashi could provide sasuke with both training and proper guidance.

Good points. Though TLC doesn't always magically fix everything (unless it's from Naruto-- because it's his manga-- Sasuke will eventually give in). Recall Orochimaru had guidance and friendship from Sarutobi and Jiraiya after his parents died though this didn't stop him from leaving the village. The sudden death of his parents caused him to become obsessed with finding immortality at any cost.

I think Kakashi's guidance could only go so far. He would urge Sasuke to give up vengeance on Itachi -- not postpone it until he was better trained, not move it down on his 'things-to-do' list. This meant Sasuke having no intentions of ever going after Itachi unless it was under Konoha's direction. Even if he got the opportunity, it wouldn't be the personal revenge he desired. This is something I don't think Sasuke could commit to. Even if Kakashi had taken him under his wing right after the massacre and treat him like a son, the moment Sasuke got wind of Itachi ever being around, he would see red and do something reckless.

Anyways, I agree with you. What Itachi did was definitely the exact opposite of how you turn someone into hero. I think he had just become committed to playing the role of villain. He believe it was better for Konoha if everyone believe he was a psychopath rather than learning the ugly truth about the Uchiha. And he believe it was better to keep Sasuke's hatred focused on himself rather than just allow Sasuke learning to deal with it and find strength his own way. I'm not sure there if there was any real way for Itachi ensuring Sasuke followed the right path after he murdered their family. Though certainly, he only made things worse pushing him towards hatred.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

He was looking at animal penises on a distant island while the world changed

Acts of heroism take all shapes and forms.

Originally Posted by Casshern

No, Sasuke's reasoning was that they killed his clan and were laughing behind his back. All along everyone's been arguing that nobody is laughing at the Uchiha but just now you agreed that they are. Therefore all of Sasuke's arguments are correct.

Sasuke doesn't literally believe they are laughing behind his back. He believes the peace and prosperity Konoha enjoys--which allows them all to smile and laugh--is all thanks to the death of his people. Technically, he's correct. Though most of Konoha's people not aware or responsible.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by Casshern

No, Sasuke's reasoning was that they killed his clan and were laughing behind his back. All along everyone's been arguing that nobody is laughing at the Uchiha but just now you agreed that they are. Therefore all of Sasuke's arguments are correct.

The clans in Konoha are possibly offshoots or in someway related to the Senjuu. Either way, the Senjuu lay the foundations for what Konoha is. During the day they proclaim the "will of fire" and during the night they kill people in their sleep.

Probably the only reason Hashirama proposed peace was because he took one look at the hardcore crazy-eyed Uchiha, glanced over to his weak-ass treehugging Senjuu and thought "I can probably take out the big guy, but the rest of them are going to slaughter my bandwaggoning little friends." So he proposes peace, he saves his clan from getting slaughtered and turns a war into a 1 on 1 fight. What a coincidence, Naruto did the same to Sasuke.

There was zero evidence of the Uchiha being treated any differently from anyone else in Konoha before Madara went and messed it up for everyone by attacking Hashirama out of paranoia, an action his entire clan disagreed with him on. The rest was politics.

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

that line of thinking is fine if the situation turns out ok in you favor. i am talking about the fact that if you look at these events in a more realistic p.o.v. you have to admit luck plays a big factor. of course luck in the naruto world is called will of fire.

This entire discussion was about what will probably happen after a "Will of Fire" speech. I'm not sure where realism ever entered this as a factor.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Casshern

On another note, The Senjuu ask for peace, the uchiha threaten them with imminent war and then they kill the Uchiha in their sleep.

fixed...

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

exactly. I've always thought sasuke was justified. the only problem is that the young ninja in konoha never knew about any of this, much like the young uchiha not knowing of the coup they were planning, so in the end it is justified on sasuke's part. even naruto has acknowledged this

Sasuke is not justified, in the least. Its not just the young of Konoha, but the vast majority of Konoha. What was going on with the Uchiha was a tightly kept secret that only the leadership and members of the anbu were aware of, much less involved with. Even Kakashi does not seem to show any kind of recognition of what was going on when Tobi explained itachi's history. We also have sarutobi that opposed EVERYTHING being done to the uchiha showing the even the highest elements of Konoha we on the Uchiha's defense... there is only a small faction of Konoha that is responsible for what happened and thus they alone are the only ones deserving of any punishment.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

that's actually always bothered me. everyone always talks about the uchiha getting wiped out, but what the frikk happened to the senju? it's like they were the mayans or something and took a spaceship to namek.

I guess they all could have just renamed themselves as sarutobi, hatake, namekaze, etc... but there's no explanation for it. or maybe all the males died off and all the females married and got new names... it's really a bit weird given all the talk of senju and uchiha lately

Ya, that's another reason I've felt the whole twist about Itachi was part of a massive retcon. Despite the Senju being one of the great pillars of Konoha and a HUGE part of ninja history, we never heard about them until Tobi brought them up deep in part 2. With such a lack of presence in modern day kohona its like they never even existed.

Spoiler for Crackpot Ranting!:

I mean Tsunade is the ONLY person we know is a member of the clan and that's because of her relation to the first hokage... We could not even be told her surname to lay down evidence of the existence of a Senju clan. We have seen numerous clans with their personal abilities... but not the senju... No ninja bears the name, their symbol is never seen anywhere and we meet no other ninja that share their abilities. Hell just look at their family pic and compare it to other ninja families; every other ninja family share similar physical traits within their members, but the senju are a complete mix; skin tone, eye color, hair color, ninja techniques, you wouldn't know these poeple were related if kishi didn't tell us they were. By all means there really is no evidence that the senju ever existed. We don't even have anything that links danzo, the man who leads the modern day discrimination against the uchiha as being a member of the clan.

Might also point out the bs link the senju and Uchiha have to the sage...

The Uchiha inherited the sage's eye, which is a really awesome eye technique that has allowed the entire clan to look like a clan of geniuses and has unlockable techniques that can make a ninja downright omnipotent(supreme genjutsu, deadly black fire, and a tenqiue that acts as both a supreme offense and defense); hell the Sharigan can even lead to the supposedly more powerful Rinnigan; oh and the eyes can control demons...

And the Senju get the sage's body which has will and physical energy, which is just terribly ill defined and something we don't really noticed... God Forbid that the Senju clan might have inherited something much more tangible like The first hokage's wood techniques which is related to the ability to control demons. Ya seems to be like a whole lot of BS to link the two together even though their was no evidence of a connection before... Kishi had already established that who Tsunade and the first hokage were (noting the two did not share any noticeable qualities) so it was too late for him to go back and say tsunade inherited something awesome that exist within her family line like what the uchiha had; he instead had to link them though something more vague and intangible

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Good points. Though TLC doesn't always magically fix everything (unless it's from Naruto-- because it's his manga-- Sasuke will eventually give in). Recall Orochimaru had guidance and friendship from Sarutobi and Jiraiya after his parents died though this didn't stop him from leaving the village. The sudden death of his parents caused him to become obsessed with finding immortality at any cost.

Hard to compare the two given that they had very different motivations, upbrigning and paths. We don't really know a great deal about Oro's childhood like the relations he had... for instance if we recall how he handled tsunade's loss of her little brother, he did come off as being kind of heartless, which would seem that he may not have been all that close to his team. Not to mention that sasuke suffered from obvious problems that others would notice and thus could have helpped him out with... Oro's issues might have been much less obvious to everyone else and thus his problems would go untreated.

I think Kakashi's guidance could only go so far. He would urge Sasuke to give up vengeance on Itachi -- not postpone it until he was better trained, not move it down on his 'things-to-do' list. This meant Sasuke having no intentions of ever going after Itachi unless it was under Konoha's direction. Even if he got the opportunity, it wouldn't be the personal revenge he desired. This is something I don't think Sasuke could commit to. Even if Kakashi had taken him under his wing right after the massacre and treat him like a son, the moment Sasuke got wind of Itachi ever being around, he would see red and do something reckless.

Well we can't really be sure HOW kakashi would guide sasuke; we only know that whatever guidance he would have to give sasuke would be FAR healthier than what he ended up with. Really ultimately doing SOMETHING would be better than doing nothing; they just allowed sasuke's problems to go untreated which would mean allowing them to go in an unpredictable direction which can prove to be dangerous. Except in Iatchi's case, where doing nothing would have been better than ENCOURAGING Sasuke's hate and vengence.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

I just read those chapters again. Funny thing. Shikamaru was not portrayed as crazy, irrational, or in the wrong like Sasuke has been. He was actually pretty calm and in control of his emotions. Tsunade was angry with him, but he immediately got the backing of Kakashi. If he were wrong, would Kishi have made Kakashi stand by him? The guy who said revenge destroys people? If Shikamaru's judgement was clouded, would Kishi allow him to think of a plan? Much different than Sasuke. I am just going by what Kishi wrote. If you find inconsistencies with the story, than blame Kishi.

But there's a big difference between the two, mainly not because the characters themselves are different (Sasuke and Shika), but the situation was quite different. Kakashi knew that Sasuke's hatred and obsession would change his character if he doesn't give up to live for only one purpose, while Shika just wanted to take revenge on a hostile stranger that killed his sensei. One was a life-long obsession and the other is simply taking revenge on a killer shortly after the tragedy (by shortly i mean Shikamaru was very much under the effects of what happened).
If you were Kakashi and one of your students at age of 12 said that the goal of his life is to kill his brother then you would be worried about him. But a few days after your sensei/nakama/teammate died you would also say lets go and get revenge, it surely is an emotional decision, but not lifelong obsession.

The problem is that nobody experienced what Sasuke has, so Kakashi can say "wise" words, but he just can't understand what it is to be in Sasuke's situation. And Kakashi had his crazy stuff too when he was young, that's what we have seen in the kakashi gaiden. He was deeply affected by how his father died, in a negative way, and that's not nearly as bad to what Sasuke has gone through. Then he got his friend Obito to make a real hero of him, instead of some fighting machine that follows rules. A fighting machine that follows rules doesn't exist anyway, at some point Kakashi would have become a missing ninja, like Kisame who at some point snapped, or many others.

[Kaiba]

Sasuke doesn't literally believe they are laughing behind his back. He believes the peace and prosperity Konoha enjoys--which allows them all to smile and laugh--is all thanks to the death of his people. Technically, he's correct. Though most of Konoha's people not aware or responsible.

I don't know why....

But I now see Sasuke looking at Naruto and saying:

Spoiler for "MW2:

"Ten years ago. I lost my entire family in one night.
And Konoha just fucking watched."

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

One thing you and Slayerx don't really address is: Assuming your judgement about Sasuke is right and he didn't leave the village due to Itachi's mind rape--what would happen if he found out that Konoha responsible for the order to kill his clan?

I'd imagine he'd be far more rational about the situation than now :/

Had he made even stronger, deeper bonds with Naruto, Sakura and other rookies, I beleive it would be quite clear to him that not everyone would deserve to be punished for what transpired, and he would likely focus his need for justice on those who do. And by extension, their voices of reason and opinions would have also probably held more weight. I'm sure Naruto and Sakura at the very least would be more than willing to help him go about seeking justice in a more appropriate manner.

As I said earlier, had Sasuke continued going on the path he was on, I honestly believe he would be very different considering the social "coloring" (to use Itachi's metaphor) he'd experience with team-7. Back then, Sasuke was willing to sacrifice his life for Naruto/team-7 on more than one occasion, so I believe spending years with them after that point --instead of years with Orochimaru and wallowing in hatred, resentment, and bitterness-- would have conditioned him to have different moral standards.

In a nutshell, considering all his experiences thus far, it should be clear that his hatred was nurtured the most, so that is what has manifested itself in his character the most. You get out what you put in :/

[james0246]

I don't know how different Sasuke would have really been. If he had learned the truth independent of Itachi and Tobi, I could still see him coming to the conclusion that all those that benefited from his clans destruction are with fault. It's still an extreme stance, but it boils down to the basic fact that the peace of the village, the peace of the general populace, is dependent on the death of the Uchiha clan. This is entirely unacceptable, and despite the no direct involvement, the general populace still indirectly benefit from the Uchiha clans segregation and eventual destruction.

No matter who your friends are, that is a tough pill to swallow. And while I agree that hsi hate was "nurtured", the underlining problem is still evident and quite powerful.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by james0246

No matter who your friends are, that is a tough pill to swallow. And while I agree that hsi hate was "nurtured", the underlining problem is still evident and quite powerful.

It is indeed a tough pill and would have taken quite a toll regardless who he grew up with. However, growing up with Kakashi and team-7 would have prepared him to bear the impact of that truth and perhaps it wouldn't have pushed him over the metaphorical edge imho. Having his hatred reinforced for years has evidently positioned him closer to that edge, and consequently the impact of this truth sent him over it. Itachi gave him a hell of a head start.

I'm not saying Sasuke would be a knight in shining white armor, I actually still believe he'd be --at least compared to Naruto and Sakura-- the darker shade of a hero as he always was, but far from the pitch black color he seems to be now. I also believe he'd still be after those directly responsible, even tempted to kill them (and perahps being talked out of it), but I seriously doubt he would be as irrational as he is acting now, wanting to kill everyone.

I think the strong relationships he was on the way of forming would go a long way in helping him be more rational and see that even though they did gain peace from the Uchiha's massacre, they still had nothing to do with it. Again, he was willing to sacrifice himself for Naruto/team-7 on more than one occcasion, so I doubt that spending years with them after that, he'd be willing to slaughter all his friends and other villagers upon hearing the horrible truth.

Best case senario, he would have formed an even stronger bond with Naruto (since Naruto would have unquestionably been by his side through this) and they would have vowed to change the village(and perhaps later the ninja system) together, when one of them would become strong enough, and come into an appropriate position to do so. Worse case senario, he would have probably fallen to the level of darkness he was in right after fighting Orochimaru, where he was essentially an anti-hero, but didn't believe in killing innocent people, imho. I think it would have been pretty cool to see them form an elite group the way Yahiko and Nagato did.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Sasuke is not justified, in the least. Its not just the young of Konoha, but the vast majority of Konoha. What was going on with the Uchiha was a tightly kept secret that only the leadership and members of the anbu were aware of, much less involved with. Even Kakashi does not seem to show any kind of recognition of what was going on when Tobi explained itachi's history. We also have sarutobi that opposed EVERYTHING being done to the uchiha showing the even the highest elements of Konoha we on the Uchiha's defense... there is only a small faction of Konoha that is responsible for what happened and thus they alone are the only ones deserving of any punishment.

It's an eye for an eye. someone like ghandi would not agree, but I feel like most people would (even just in sentiment). imagine your entire family and bloodline being annhilated by the government. would you still join the army and fight along side them or would you hate the govt and try to do whatever you could to rectify the situation? most people just don't have the power to do what sasuke is capable of and literally fight back against such a strong force. I'm not saying that most of konoha deserves to die by sasuke's hand. I'm saying that most, if not all of the uchiha didn't deserve it either and that can't just go unpunished. In wars it is often deemed that the innocent must die. it's not like soldiers had anything to do with the political actions taken to start the war in the first place, but they are killed in droves during wartime. it may not be pretty or what you want to have happen, but that is exactly what happens unfortunately and it is justified to take down a greater evil. konoha is entirely to blame for sasuke's current stance. the young ones are part of this ninja system that naruto wants to change and even though they didn't know exactly what happened they still represent the village that did it and are prospering because of a genocide.

Originally Posted by james0246

I don't know how different Sasuke would have really been. If he had learned the truth independent of Itachi and Tobi, I could still see him coming to the conclusion that all those that benefited from his clans destruction are with fault. It's still an extreme stance, but it boils down to the basic fact that the peace of the village, the peace of the general populace, is dependent on the death of the Uchiha clan. This is entirely unacceptable, and despite the no direct involvement, the general populace still indirectly benefit from the Uchiha clans segregation and eventual destruction.

No matter who your friends are, that is a tough pill to swallow. And while I agree that hsi hate was "nurtured", the underlining problem is still evident and quite powerful.

I totally agree with this. no matter how sasuke learned the truth, he would turn his back on konoha and want to kill them. there's no way he would stay and fight alongside them on team 7 knowing the very village he fights for, once eradicated his entire clan and close family.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Ya, that's another reason I've felt the whole twist about Itachi was part of a massive retcon. Despite the Senju being one of the great pillars of Konoha and a HUGE part of ninja history, we never heard about them until Tobi brought them up deep in part 2. With such a lack of presence in modern day kohona its like they never even existed.

Spoiler for Crackpot Ranting!:

I mean Tsunade is the ONLY person we know is a member of the clan and that's because of her relation to the first hokage... We could not even be told her surname to lay down evidence of the existence of a Senju clan. We have seen numerous clans with their personal abilities... but not the senju... No ninja bears the name, their symbol is never seen anywhere and we meet no other ninja that share their abilities. Hell just look at their family pic and compare it to other ninja families; every other ninja family share similar physical traits within their members, but the senju are a complete mix; skin tone, eye color, hair color, ninja techniques, you wouldn't know these poeple were related if kishi didn't tell us they were. By all means there really is no evidence that the senju ever existed. We don't even have anything that links danzo, the man who leads the modern day discrimination against the uchiha as being a member of the clan.

Might also point out the bs link the senju and Uchiha have to the sage...

The Uchiha inherited the sage's eye, which is a really awesome eye technique that has allowed the entire clan to look like a clan of geniuses and has unlockable techniques that can make a ninja downright omnipotent(supreme genjutsu, deadly black fire, and a tenqiue that acts as both a supreme offense and defense); hell the Sharigan can even lead to the supposedly more powerful Rinnigan; oh and the eyes can control demons...

And the Senju get the sage's body which has will and physical energy, which is just terribly ill defined and something we don't really noticed... God Forbid that the Senju clan might have inherited something much more tangible like The first hokage's wood techniques which is related to the ability to control demons. Ya seems to be like a whole lot of BS to link the two together even though their was no evidence of a connection before... Kishi had already established that who Tsunade and the first hokage were (noting the two did not share any noticeable qualities) so it was too late for him to go back and say tsunade inherited something awesome that exist within her family line like what the uchiha had; he instead had to link them though something more vague and intangible

lolz.. I agree with the whole retcon theory of the senju/uchiha war and itachi's turn to good. I happen to think that itachi's works pretty flawlessly, which is impressive since he was originally designed to be a maniacal evil somewhat simplistic character. but this senju stuff... it's a glaring problem. when kishi first decided on it, he should have just had the senju return to konoha from some stupid place for some stupid reason and just gotten it over with in one chapter we could all forget about. then at least this current storyline would make more sense and there would be two sides to a two sided war. tsunade being the only descendent of a clan that apparently rivaled the uchiha is just not enough. it's laughable especially considering the fact that she doesn't even have their greatest powers. i think kishi should have reconsidered this whole senju/uchiha blood relationship to the sage. it should just be the uchiha i think and then the senju (or just konoha) should have been made to be the usurpers of their power over the years so the uchiha want back what was rightfully theirs as the heads of the ninja world.

[Hunter]

Itachi was meant to be a good guy from the start, that's why Sasuke made a cryptic reference to the fact that Itachi was crying after the massacre as soon as chapter 7. It was just very badly written from then on.
The Senju on the other hand are probably an afterthought. And if they're not, they were handled even worse than Itachi's "tough love" for Sasuke.

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

I sometimes wish Naruto was more like Skyrim. A world where 110 lb. women can swing 50 lb. steel greatswords the same as 230 lb. guys. And no one cares because it is a fictional world. Where being a woman doesn't mean some sort of handicap.

This is such a world, that's why it's even worse.
Being a woman isn't an handicap because of any physical capacities or lack there of, it's an handicap because the author feels like it should be, period.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

fixed...

Your fix is even more fallacious than the original quote though.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Itachi was meant to be a good guy from the start, that's why Sasuke made a cryptic reference to the fact that Itachi was crying after the massacre as soon as chapter 7.

I reread that chapter and I see what you're saying. I suppose I agree that it's open ended on purpose, meaning that it could refer to either sasuke or itachi crying at that time. but after tobi's revelation to sasuke about what happened, sasuke remembers itachi crying and says that he forgot about it until tobi's story. so going by that, it seems like sasuke was talking about himself crying in chapter 7. so if that hint is nullified, I don't think there is another until the deidara and sasori arc when itachi smiles after naruto defeats his clone which is so far down into the plot that itachi being good is clearly a retcon

[james0246]

^It's not a retcon. A retcon only occurs when previous facts and information are ignored in place of new facts and information. We knew nothing of the massacre beyond Sasuke's personal experience, so, of course, any new information only served to expand on the incident, not simply rewrite what we already knew (which wasn't much).

[Hunter]

First, you don't "nullify" hints.
Secondly, no Sasuke wasn't talking about himself, he was blatantly talking about Itachi. And he hadn't forgotten the sight of Itachi crying (though he tried to), he thought he had been mistaken because he couldn't accept it.
There were many others hints about it which is why the theory of Itachi being secretly a good guy started as soon as his introduction. As I said it's just that the author made a mess of it which make many of Itachi's actions completely incoherent in insight.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Hunter

First, you don't "nullify" hints.
Secondly, no Sasuke wasn't talking about himself, he was blatantly talking about Itachi. And he hadn't forgotten the sight of Itachi crying (though he tried to), he thought he had been mistaken because he couldn't accept it.
There were many others hints about it which is why the theory of Itachi being secretly a good guy started as soon as his introduction. As I said it's just that the author made a mess of it which make many of Itachi's actions completely incoherent in insight.

i agree with this. i've always had my suspicions about him not being a villain. his so-called redemption isn't an asspull, just horribly written like you said. i also suspected that he had help. as powerful as he was, he couldn't take down that many uchiha in one night. he would need the help of someone who is just as powerful if not more, which is a clue that he was lying somewhere. his reasons for killing his clan just didn't seem believable to me. at some point, i even suspected that itachi wasn't the one who killed his clan, he just took the blame for it for some unknown reason.

It is indeed a tough pill and would have taken quite a toll regardless who he grew up with. However, growing up with Kakashi and team-7 would have prepared him to bear the impact of that truth and perhaps it wouldn't have pushed him over the metaphorical edge imho. Having his hatred reinforced for years has evidently positioned him closer to that edge, and consequently the impact of this truth sent him over it. Itachi gave him a hell of a head start.

I'm not saying Sasuke would be a knight in shining white armor, I actually still believe he'd be --at least compared to Naruto and Sakura-- the darker shade of a hero as he always was, but far from the pitch black color he seems to be now. I also believe he'd still be after those directly responsible, even tempted to kill them (and perahps being talked out of it), but I seriously doubt he would be as irrational as he is acting now, wanting to kill everyone.

I think the strong relationships he was on the way of forming would go a long way in helping him be more rational and see that even though they did gain peace from the Uchiha's massacre, they still had nothing to do with it. Again, he was willing to sacrifice himself for Naruto/team-7 on more than one occcasion, so I doubt that spending years with them after that, he'd be willing to slaughter all his friends and other villagers upon hearing the horrible truth.

Best case senario, he would have formed an even stronger bond with Naruto (since Naruto would have unquestionably been by his side through this) and they would have vowed to change the village(and perhaps later the ninja system) together, when one of them would become strong enough, and come into an appropriate position to do so. Worse case senario, he would have probably fallen to the level of darkness he was in right after fighting Orochimaru, where he was essentially an anti-hero, but didn't believe in killing innocent people, imho. I think it would have been pretty cool to see them form an elite group the way Yahiko and Nagato did.

if you really think about it, gaara had it worse than sasuke. the guy was blamed for his mother's death, his siblings and the rest of suna feared him, his father wanted him dead and his uncle tried to kill him! the boy was not shown a shred of kindness, save for his uncle who eventually betrayed him! and on top of that, he was treated like a monster and a dangerous weapon that's only meant to be used and disposed of if he no longer has any use. of course he would grow up to be a psychotic killer! but i like the way he transitioned from a disturbed and angry boy to a compassionate and responsible young man. all it took was for him to realize that things could change if he would allow himself to change. that people would love him if he could learn to love as well. it didn't happen overnight either, unlike with nagato that happened almost immediately.

i agree that if only sasuke was nurtured with love and encouragement from his peers instead of hate, he wouldn't be in this situation. but i also believe that it was also his choice. if he had only allowed himself to believe that he could move on and make something of himself without letting his dark past cloud his future, he wouldn't turn out to be such a vengeful little prick. but he gave in to his anger and it brought him to this dark path he's in now.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

First, you don't "nullify" hints.
Secondly, no Sasuke wasn't talking about himself, he was blatantly talking about Itachi. And he hadn't forgotten the sight of Itachi crying (though he tried to), he thought he had been mistaken because he couldn't accept it.
There were many others hints about it which is why the theory of Itachi being secretly a good guy started as soon as his introduction. As I said it's just that the author made a mess of it which make many of Itachi's actions completely incoherent in insight.

hints can be nullified. if tobi turns out not to be obito for instance, then all of the hints relating to that theory are nullified. nullify: to deprive (something) of value or effectiveness; make futile or of no consequence.

sasuke was not blatantly talking about itachi. he was saying random words that could have related to anything. you said yourself that it was a 'cryptic reference' and sasuke was certainly crying that day.

you say there are many other hints, but I don't really see any. do you have examples? (in the first series I mean)

I also don't see how it's incoherent. it was a bad/evil/unreasonable decision to wipe out the uchiha, but political leaders make bad decisions all the time. it makes sense that itachi would take the blame so that the uchiha wouldn't be known poorly in history. it makes sense he would want the village and sasuke to have a villain to go after instead of finding out the truth. he made himself a diversion and continued to protect the village while in akatsuki

Originally Posted by ronin myael

i agree with this. i've always had my suspicions about him not being a villain. his so-called redemption isn't an asspull, just horribly written like you said. i also suspected that he had help. as powerful as he was, he couldn't take down that many uchiha in one night. he would need the help of someone who is just as powerful if not more, which is a clue that he was lying somewhere.

if 1 person killing the uchiha clan wasn't believable, then why would you assume that only 2 people did it? it's still a very small number against a whole village. it might as well be one person. it just adds to the retcon theory since kishi wanted to implant tobi into the story more and he wanted to make itachi seem more like a noble person, so adding tobi diverted a lot of the evilness of the massacre away from itachi and onto tobi and then later onto the elders. itachi wasn't the sole perpetrator anymore

Originally Posted by james0246

^It's not a retcon. A retcon only occurs when previous facts and information are ignored in place of new facts and information. We knew nothing of the massacre beyond Sasuke's personal experience, so, of course, any new information only served to expand on the incident, not simply rewrite what we already knew (which wasn't much).

retcon: the common situation in fiction where a new story "reveals" things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the "facts" the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely changing their interpretation.

it just means that the interpretation was changed. the whole first series we were led to believe that itachi was evil by the facts presented. no facts get ignored in place of new facts.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

hints can be nullified. if tobi turns out not to be obito for instance, then all of the hints relating to that theory are nullified. nullify: to deprive (something) of value or effectiveness; make futile or of no consequence.

That doesn't "nullify" anything, it simply means that these hints were either red herring or meaningless events from the start blown out of proportion by the readers.
And you have dodged the actual point I made to answer with this, Sasuke hadn't forgotten, he said he thought he had been mistaken because he couldn't make sense of it.

sasuke was not blatantly talking about itachi. he was saying random words that could have related to anything. you said yourself that it was a 'cryptic reference' and sasuke was certainly crying that day.

Yes he is, the sentence was cryptic back then (though even then he didn't seem to be talking about himself), it is however patently obvious what he was refering to in insight.

you say there are many other hints, but I don't really see any. do you have examples? (in the first series I mean)

Why would you stop at part 1? And even so, his reaction the very first page he appeared where Kisame wondered why he seemed troubled by Konoha's destruction after the war against the Sand. The fact that Kakashi said he could have killed him and yet didn't, his reaction to Jiraiya when we knew he had taken down Orochimaru and Kisame's reaction who didn't understand why they were leaving like that. There were also many things in the first Uchiha flachback at the GotE where things seemed off (the discussion between Itachi and his parent Sasuke surprised at night for example). We didn't know what exactly but it was obvious something else was going on.

I also don't see how it's incoherent. it was a bad/evil/unreasonable decision to wipe out the uchiha, but political leaders make bad decisions all the time. it makes sense that itachi would take the blame so that the uchiha wouldn't be known poorly in history. it makes sense he would want the village and sasuke to have a villain to go after instead of finding out the truth. he made himself a diversion and continued to protect the village while in akatsuki

I wasn't talking about that (though there are many incoherent things with the whole situation as well), I was talking about his action toward Sasuke.
It'd be fine had he intended to create an half crazed sociopath hellbent on but revenge at any cost but claiming he intended to make Sasuke a hero by torturing him and telling him to kill his best friend? Yeah right.

[Discerptor]

I think it's worth noting that this is the first time we're getting confirmation of Itachi's intentions from him directly rather than from the mouth of a known chronic liar. So far, Itachi has said nothing of his actions being intended to make Sasuke into a hero or weighing Sasuke's life more heavily than the village. As of right now, based on what Itachi has said right here, he spared Sasuke primarily because he wanted an avenger, not a hero and not because he just loved his little brother so much. I'm interested in seeing where this conversation goes, since it may make certain inconsistencies line up better. If Itachi in fact doesn't value Sasuke over the village, for example, it makes his rather harsh backup plan of Geassing him into submission a little more understandable.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

That doesn't "nullify" anything, it simply means that these hints were either red herring or meaningless events from the start blown out of proportion by the readers.

I think that is just semantics. a red herring loses its value when it is proven to be a misdirection since it no longer possesses the potential it once had

And you have dodged the actual point I made to answer with this, Sasuke hadn't forgotten, he said he thought he had been mistaken because he couldn't make sense of it.

I still think it's open ended. I don't speak japanese, but the translation I have says: "There's a man that only I can kill. That time... crying... my... I have to become stronger than him." he seems to be saying how strong itachi is and that he must get to be stronger, so why would he throw in that itachi was crying? its antithetical to his sentiment of itachi being a strong opponent he must one day overcome, not a crybaby like sasuke believed himself to be at that time

Why would you stop at part 1?

because in part 2 the hints are totally apparent and not worth debating since that's when the retcon began to fully manifest and it wasn't just open ended cryptic oddities.

And even so, his reaction the very first page he appeared where Kisame wondered why he seemed troubled by Konoha's destruction after the war against the Sand. The fact that Kakashi said he could have killed him and yet didn't, his reaction to Jiraiya when we knew he had taken down Orochimaru and Kisame's reaction who didn't understand why they were leaving like that. There were also many things in the first Uchiha flachback at the GotE where things seemed off (the discussion between Itachi and his parent Sasuke surprised at night for example). We didn't know what exactly but it was obvious something else was going on.

thanks for pointed them out =) you're assuming that kishi knew the whole time that itachi was going to be good though. I think he left a lot of these odd situations open to have several possible futures. none of what you mentioned actually negates itachi having a future where he was in fact evil. of course that didn't end up happening but itachi being troubled, or leaving kakashi alive after severely torturing him, or kisame not knowing why they left, etc... do not directly imply that itachi is good. they merely cast more mystery on him. he could have been really evil and was plotting something involving kakashi and jiraiya in the future and needed them alive. (not that jiraiya was a pushover anyway)

I wasn't talking about that (though there are many incoherent things with the whole situation as well), I was talking about his action toward Sasuke.
It'd be fine had he intended to create an half crazed sociopath hellbent on but revenge at any cost but claiming he intended to make Sasuke a hero by torturing him and telling him to kill his best friend? Yeah right.

I agree with Discerptor on this. did Itachi ever claim he was making sasuke a hero? in this latest chapter he actually tells sasuke that he wanted to create an avenger. it was tobi who tried to convince sasuke otherwise. or maybe they're all just lying, but either way itachi has never identified with the hero persona. itachi was always a bit disturbed and mentally strained from his genius so he's not really the best judge of morality

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

It'd be fine had he intended to create an half crazed sociopath hellbent on but revenge at any cost but claiming he intended to make Sasuke a hero by torturing him and telling him to kill his best friend? Yeah right.

By the Narutoverse standards Itachi's actions were logical, if we think about Gaara's father's actions then Itachi's seem ok
And there are countless other examples, for example Naruto's father deciding the way he did.

Then there's also another reason why Itachi did this, but it's kinda inconsistent with this chapter where Itachi is amazed that Sasuke can use susano. This other reason is simply that Itachi wanted Sasuke to become strong as him because he knew that after his death many people, including Danzou will try to kill Sasuke.

For me the part of their (Itachi, Minato, even Tobi) behavior that seems to be the most stupid is their faith that these children will survive some crazy stuff. For example why is Itachi so sure Sasuke would survive his encounters with Orochimaru and Deidara, or survive Itachi's amaterasu and other attacks. Or Minato thinking that the masked man will not try to kidnap Naruto whereas he waited a long long time for the moment Kushina's seal became weak and had no problem getting to Kushina. And so on...