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Old 2013-11-28, 16:45   Link #33381
Valkama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Hmm. So it's an issue of whether essentially-reds about character traits in Bern's ep 8 game apply to the rest of the game.
If you take them all as true though, really only 3 apply to characters:

No one will mistakenly confirm a death, even those other than myself.
Which is true because an accomplice always confirms the culprits death.

Maria-chan couldn't kill anyone.
Also true.

George onii-chan couldn't kill an adult. He could kill a kid though.
This is contradicts Rosatrice but as far as Shkanon goes it's true.
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Old 2013-11-28, 17:14   Link #33382
jTiKey
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Quote:
Found Renall's post about the rosatrice theories. Knock yourself out kid:
I can't see any conflicts with the red truth.

Anything that isn't denied by red can have varieties, until it don't contradict human posibilities.
Shkanon can't even solve the puzzle with the red truth.

Quote:
Beatrice
Hail the witch!

EP4 ending:
Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you.
And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere.
You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.

- Who am I?
- You are Beatrice!

XD

If you have any problems with the red truth in Rosatrice, I'm open to discuss it.


Shannon is dead in the 6 clossed murder room, and CANNOT kill dr. Nanjo.
Kanon is dead in the 6 clossed murder room, and CANNOT kill dr. Nanjo.
In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human. She is definitely dead. and she CANNOT kill dr. Nanjo
This theory is false.
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Old 2013-11-28, 17:21   Link #33383
Cao Ni Ma
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We do have issues with it, please go trough each of the bullets renall did in great detail. If you cant even attempt it then you aren't arguing in good faith and I dont think anyone will take you seriously.

The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. You claim that Rosatrice is right, then prove it by making an actually coherent theory instead of making an appeal to authority on KnowNoMore (which is pretty bad imo)

vvv
Ah yes another argument to authority and then an argument to ignorance! You are good at making fallacies!

Anyways see ya! Someone please tell me if he actually does put a little effort into making a coherent theory instead of regurgitating Knownomores. Thats if you guys dont add him to your ignore list as well.

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2013-11-28 at 17:39.
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Old 2013-11-28, 17:32   Link #33384
jTiKey
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Cao Ni Ma, as I said before, everything is in the video, and will be soon on wikia. There no red truth conflicting with it. I can just proclame:

Rosatrice has no red truth contradiction.

You may try proclame the same, but with your theory. It will no stand the game 3 and 5. Your suspect(s) is(are) DEAD. And guess by who <3

I don't have to prove anything to you. Believe in Sakutarotrice. Who cares? I came here for my reasons.
I was here for EP3, where all 3 culprits you name are dead. I didn't even need to start game 5.

Game over for me. Thank you for the few pages you wrote and the time you spend on me.
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Old 2013-11-28, 17:40   Link #33385
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
We do have issues with it, please go through each of the bullets renall did in great detail. If you cant even attempt it then you aren't arguing in good faith and I dont think anyone will take you seriously.

The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. You claim that Rosatrice is right, then prove it by making an actually coherent theory instead of making an appeal to authority on KnowNoMore (which is pretty bad imo)
Yes, exactly this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
Cao Ni Ma, as I said before, everything is in the video, and will be soon on wikia. There no red truth conflicting with it. I can just proclame:

Rosatrice has no red truth contradiction.

...

I don't have to prove anything to you. Believe in Sakutarotrice. Who cares? I came here for my reasons. I was here for EP3, where all 3 culprits you name are dead. I didn't even need to start game 5.
Aaaand that settles the matter. jTiKey is unwilling to argue in good faith, and is incapable either of explaining or defending Rosatrice theory, even going for extra weirdness points by expecting people to accept a random proclamation that has nothing to back it up. It was worth a try to see whether he would be able to argue the theory.
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Old 2013-11-28, 17:48   Link #33386
Valkama
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I do find it rather funny that whenever a disproving Shkanon theory comes up it is always about "taking the red at face value" and "nothing but the red is true" which is exactly what EP4 onward is telling us not to do.
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Old 2013-11-28, 19:17   Link #33387
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I always considered that Eva-Beato could also be seen as "the true culprit" approaching her and basically using her as a disguise to further commit murders, as an alternate solution to EP3. That would make EP3 more or less a dark version of the tragic EP5, Eva being used as a scapegoat (just much more acceptable than Natsuhi).

I would in that way clearly separate "the true culprit" from "Yasu", since the murderous culprit is as much a fictional character, distilled from the real person's murderous fantasies.
I've always liked the idea that Eva Beatrice in EP 3 was nothing else than a representation of how Yasu was using Eva as a way to hide herself. There are bits in which Eva and Eva Beatrice talks that would work awesomly well if they were a talk between Eva who's being used as an accomplice and begins to regret it and Yasu. It would also explain why Eva reacted shooting Battler when he accused her to be the culprit. She felt responsible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, that is the horrible side of the whole Golden Land idea that Erika also comments on in the manga, which I like that they included it. The whole idea of the Golden Land is sweet and nice if there was no people outside suffering because of it, but it is basically saying, "We're here in this wonderful place where everybody is happy, but Ange can't join us," without ever giving a proper explanation to her why.

Thinking about it, this would also explain why she put the feelings between Kanon and Jessica into the forgeries. There never needed to be a betrayal of Jessica where she actually thought Kanon to be a separate person, but to the outside world there needed to be. The illusion of there being a person for George and one for Jessica makes them both end up happy if they die together, for the outside observer.
This was probably the way Yasu saw it, even though it's highly twisted.
The problem with the Golden land is that's just an arbitrarily happy, convenient fantasy that's being forced on people by the one who created it.

Of course a happy fantasy can be shared and others can agree it's a happy fantasy. But in the Golden Land's case the fantasy is way too convenient for Yasu and it's not shared but forced on the others around her.

Honestly I believe Maria's death in Ep 3 is more about Maria being against Yasu killing her mother and failing to believe it'll be okay to meet her again in the Golden Land than parting the two who're close. In Our Confession it's said it wouldn't have been necessary to kill both... but if Maria rebelled and threatened to say what she know, rejecting the idea that 'Shannon was possessed by Beato', things could have started going wrong for Yasu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
George and Jessica knowing about it actually would explain why there was a battle over the headship in EP4, if it was actually over not the position but the actual head of the family.
If we consider Jessica's and George's answers then, it would also be a declaration of George to kill Jessica to have "the head" for himself and of Jessica to "be okay with being killed out of moral reasons, but not giving up so easily." That would leave room for the interpretation of this very scene being "the love duel" and the one shooting George would be Jessica in self-defense.
Yes, this is also a theory I like... although I've hard time thinking the two of them really tried to kill each other over Yasu. I prefer to think they were tricked into taking part to a game, like in Ep 5, and killed after they've finished their role for it.

Although it could be interesting if Yasu really gave them a test of some sort and depending to how they were to solve it she would have decided what to do.
Ryukishi said in Ep 2 Shannon might have questioned George and not have liked his answers... so it's possible she questioned Jessica and George in EP 4 as well.



On a sidenote... I've been trying to read the Rosatrice theory now that's it's written... either it's not being explained well or it's worse than I thought.
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Old 2013-11-28, 19:53   Link #33388
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
On a sidenote... I've been trying to read the Rosatrice theory now that's it's written... either it's not being explained well or it's worse than I thought.
The wiki page for it is a real mess. I wouldn't be surprised if whoever typed that up was just terrible at communicating, given the many spelling and grammatical errors. I doubt they're actually doing justice to KnM's attempts, despite the weaknesses of his theory. Right now the page is probably counter-productive: people will be able to look at the theory and see its problems straight away.

Still, even taking into account the clumsily written wiki page, I don't believe that KnM ever managed to come up with an explanation for the motives for Rosa, George and Nanjo that wasn't absolute rubbish, so I don't think the wiki writer can be blamed for that.
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Old 2013-11-28, 20:05   Link #33389
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
The wiki page for it is a real mess. I wouldn't be surprised if whoever typed that up was just terrible at communicating, given the many spelling and grammatical errors. I doubt they're actually doing justice to KnM's attempts, despite the weaknesses of his theory. Right now the page is probably counter-productive: people will be able to look at the theory and see its problems straight away.

Still, even taking into account the clumsily written wiki page, I don't believe that KnM ever managed to come up with an explanation for the motives for Rosa, George and Nanjo that wasn't absolute rubbish, so I don't think the wiki writer can be blamed for that.
*sigh* That's a pity. Though I'm also not too fond of the way the murders are committed and the large abuse of fake death drug. *sigh*

Bah, I'll try to re-read it when it'll be better written.
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Old 2013-11-28, 21:16   Link #33390
Leafsnail
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I think Rosatrice sortof makes sense in Turn and Banquet, but completely fails in every other episode. Rosa really just doesn't get enough attention to be the culprit.

edit - Challenge: Come up with a theory in which Nanjo is not an accomplice
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Old 2013-11-28, 23:03   Link #33391
Valkama
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post

edit - Challenge: Come up with a theory in which Nanjo is not an accomplice
Well there is always this
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Old 2013-11-29, 01:26   Link #33392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I think Rosatrice sortof makes sense in Turn and Banquet, but completely fails in every other episode. Rosa really just doesn't get enough attention to be the culprit.
Well, EP8 manga kinda destroyed any bigger chance of Rosa being responsible in Banquet and in Turn we could say she's responsible for the first and maybe second twilight, but for the others she's observed by the detective and has no easy chance to slip out.

Also it'd be weird considering how Rosa seems to be actually pained by Maria's contact with Beatrice...for Rosatrice we'd need an actual medical condition like split personality...

Quote:
edit - Challenge: Come up with a theory in which Nanjo is not an accomplice
Well...we could always plead for incompetency
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Old 2013-11-29, 01:34   Link #33393
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Hey guys, I'm back from making the world record of longest hiatus ever. You'll see it on the Guinness book soon. Anyway, I didn't come back without bringing anything substantial but I'll talk about that in a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I
On a sidenote... I've been trying to read the Rosatrice theory now that's it's written... either it's not being explained well or it's worse than I thought.
JTiKey was the one who wrote it, so you can blame him for how the theory is presented in the wiki. I find it sad that the major support of the theory, the hints, are rather shallow:

Quote:
Rosa calls the servants "furniture".
That isn't really substantial. Calling servants a derogatory name is natural for those who have a high view of themselves especially when relating their own self- worth to those of their servants who they believe aren't worth much at all.

Quote:
So mush rose symbolism.
And? Symbolism isn't a key piece of evidence when considering whether a person is a culprit of a murder. It's meant as an abstract that not only represents itself but something. The rose in the game is meant to refer to Beatrice and the game itself, not the culprit or anything directly related to the mystery at hand. It only has literary value.

These are the worst ones as far as my opinion goes. It seems like this plays on people's tendency to connect coincidences together to formulate a connection that isn't there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The problem with the Golden land is that's just an arbitrarily happy, convenient fantasy that's being forced on people by the one who created it.

Of course a happy fantasy can be shared and others can agree it's a happy fantasy. But in the Golden Land's case the fantasy is way too convenient for Yasu and it's not shared but forced on the others around her.
This is actually a perfect segue into what I wanted to talk about. I have two theories, one of which I think I've talked about before, and one that I believe was discussed about. I'm just simply mashing these two theories into one as they work well together.

The first theory is that the reunion was a planned mystery game by the adults to either entertain the kids and/or celebrate Battler's return to the family. It was hinted at in EP 2 when they were talking about celebrating Halloween and how the first murder was done with a Halloween theme. You can clearly see it in all games with the demonic symbols and gory murders. This puts into question the reactions and statements of the adults, servants, and possibly Jessica and George if you assume they knew about it. It could be that they were acting during certain times and some of their statements might not be truthful. If this be the case then it would explain certain reactions such as characters doing things that are not normal for their personality. This really isn't meant to address larger issues such as Shkannon/Yasu but rather a reaction to the idea that the family members have no reason to kill each other. That piece of blue can be supported by EP 8 where the family was happy during the party which shows that, unlike how the previous games showed, they were a very close family. So, without a substantial reason, the family wouldn't kill each other outright if not forced into doing so.

Now, to explain who or what could force them, that's simple. Our Confession pretty much gives that answer. However, it's hard to reason out why Beatrice/Yasu would want to murder the family if not by the idea that she is mentally unstable. This is pretty much a given if you assume that she suffered brain trauma during her fall as a baby or is suffering through the emotional trauma of her life. It is possible that she has a number of mental issues, possibly depression, repressed anger and sadness, MPD, and has a hard time differing reality from her own delusions. So, her motive for the matters are probably the result of a skewered vision of reality, morality, and the value of life.

So, jjblue, what you say about the Golden Land being a forced fantasy could be the result of Yasu having a delusional belief that the Golden Land actually exists. Or it may be her simply stating that she's doing everyone a favor by killing them, taking them to a better place in the afterlife. Sadly, the theory of her mental instability isn't really strict in interpretation and can have multiple reasons for why Beatrice would do something. By the way, this is generally the same as the Final Culprit Theory made by Kylon. The major difference is that her brain injury is a major but not initial cause of her mental state since she had suffered it as a child and wouldn't have an identity for us to speak about.

Last edited by ErenselTheJester; 2013-11-29 at 01:47.
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Old 2013-11-29, 17:39   Link #33394
Renall
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The biggest issue for me with any other theory is that it's clear what theory was intended and the themes of the work, flawed as they may be in execution, clearly array themselves around that particular theory. Believing there is some "hidden answer" requires the work to be reinterpreted thematically, and it never stands up to that. So either there is no hidden answer, or the hidden answer dispenses with the themes of the story... in which case those themes are pointless, and so is the work. Why bother, then?

Additionally, a lot of these theories are reliant upon ambiguous or mistranslated red text. By this I don't mean that Witch Hunt got it wrong, but rather that the translation choices for the sentences they chose at the times that they did were slightly off from the way they "should" have been phrased in English given what we now know about the stories. For example, the ep3 red should probably be "Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are all dead!" to remove the ambiguity of the counter that doesn't have an appropriate English analogue. It still has the "death isn't death" cheat but that's endemic to the work. A few other reds where events are referred to that don't happen (corpse only refers to actual corpses, the letter) are fine, the problem is mostly the translation making statements out to be more definitive than they were intended. Erika's additional analysis of ep5 and ep6 in the ep8 manga make this pretty clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The problem with the Golden land is that's just an arbitrarily happy, convenient fantasy that's being forced on people by the one who created it.

Of course a happy fantasy can be shared and others can agree it's a happy fantasy. But in the Golden Land's case the fantasy is way too convenient for Yasu and it's not shared but forced on the others around her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
So, jjblue, what you say about the Golden Land being a forced fantasy could be the result of Yasu having a delusional belief that the Golden Land actually exists. Or it may be her simply stating that she's doing everyone a favor by killing them, taking them to a better place in the afterlife. Sadly, the theory of her mental instability isn't really strict in interpretation and can have multiple reasons for why Beatrice would do something. By the way, this is generally the same as the Final Culprit Theory made by Kylon. The major difference is that her brain injury is a major but not initial cause of her mental state since she had suffered it as a child and wouldn't have an identity for us to speak about.
Arguably, Bern and Erika are right and that Golden Land doesn't exist anyway, except perhaps as an unattainable fantasy of Ange's imagination. Eva didn't die at her 1986 age (although Eva in ep8 acts like she both has and doesn't have her post-'86 memories anyway), Battler isn't even actually dead, and so forth. Allowing the Golden Land to exist is basically Ange's prerogative, so the disturbing implications of say Gohda (who has no family or close personal connection to anyone else) being "trapped" in the Golden Land whether he wanted to be there or not has nothing to do with "reality," where those people are simply dead. The whole thing with Tohya and Battler at the end of ep8 suggests either a metaphor for the former dying or just "allowing" the latter to escape to that mutual fantasy shared with him by "Yukari" so he can finally live as a person unburdened by Battler Ushiromiya's existence.

It's basically a pseudo-atheistic argument where the only "heaven" is conjured up by the living in the memory of the dead, so they behave as the living want and the living obviously can never join them there (if Ange dies, the fantasy of her memory dies with her unless it's shared)*. Of course then the work sort of casts an ambiguous light on the actual existence of witches, but let's not worry about that because it's obvious sequel-baiting and declaring that Bernkastel and Lambdadelta actually don't exist would obviously interfere with them showing up when Something Else Cries.

---

* This is actually one of the thematic issues that were just sort of tangential to ep8 that I thought was pretty interesting and covered in greater detail in Redaction. If KNM's work is a long attempt to provide a different answer to Umineko factually, mine is an even longer and more pretentious attempt to challenge it thematically. This is why I try to stay out of discussions of Rosatrice anymore.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2013-11-29, 18:05   Link #33395
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
JTiKey was the one who wrote it, so you can blame him for how the theory is presented in the wiki. I find it sad that the major support of the theory, the hints, are rather shallow:



That isn't really substantial. Calling servants a derogatory name is natural for those who have a high view of themselves especially when relating their own self- worth to those of their servants who they believe aren't worth much at all.
Yes, not mentioning Rosa grew up with Genji calling himself and his fellow servants furnitures so she might have ended up being influenced into using such way to refer to the servants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
And? Symbolism isn't a key piece of evidence when considering whether a person is a culprit of a murder. It's meant as an abstract that not only represents itself but something. The rose in the game is meant to refer to Beatrice and the game itself, not the culprit or anything directly related to the mystery at hand. It only has literary value.
Well, symbolism has some weight in Umineko, but I fear that's not the case in which symbolism is relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
These are the worst ones as far as my opinion goes. It seems like this plays on people's tendency to connect coincidences together to formulate a connection that isn't there.
Can we talk of:

Quote:
Kanon says Rosa is the culprit (Game 2)
Because of course what the Kanon of a fantasy scene in which he's also devious and set on killing everyone said is more relevant of what Battler, the detective, said in a real scene in EP 3 just before being shot by Eva and it's even more relavant than what Erika said in Ep 5 about Natsuhi behing the culprit.
If we've to believe one random character about who's the culprit, of course let's pick up the less believable one.
Geez, at this point, if I've to believe what a fantasy says, I can as well believe at Beatrice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
This is actually a perfect segue into what I wanted to talk about. I have two theories, one of which I think I've talked about before, and one that I believe was discussed about. I'm just simply mashing these two theories into one as they work well together.

The first theory is that the reunion was a planned mystery game by the adults to either entertain the kids and/or celebrate Battler's return to the family. It was hinted at in EP 2 when they were talking about celebrating Halloween and how the first murder was done with a Halloween theme. You can clearly see it in all games with the demonic symbols and gory murders. This puts into question the reactions and statements of the adults, servants, and possibly Jessica and George if you assume they knew about it. It could be that they were acting during certain times and some of their statements might not be truthful. If this be the case then it would explain certain reactions such as characters doing things that are not normal for their personality. This really isn't meant to address larger issues such as Shkannon/Yasu but rather a reaction to the idea that the family members have no reason to kill each other. That piece of blue can be supported by EP 8 where the family was happy during the party which shows that, unlike how the previous games showed, they were a very close family. So, without a substantial reason, the family wouldn't kill each other outright if not forced into doing so.
The trick is in your own words. The family might have a substantial reason to kill each other and actually Umineko gave some:
money problems
discord between siblings deeply rooted in their past
Kinzo's death being hidden, which was a definite source of strain for Krauss and Natsuhi
Some siblings being prone at violent attacking each other
Instability of Rosa but likely, in a more subtle, tamer way, of Eva also
Kyrie and Rudolf's weak coscience

Also, although hinted way more vaguely, there could have been discord even between the cousins.

Now, all this doesn't necessarily have to cause someone to go on a murdering rampage in cold blood, and honestly I feel that EP 7 teaparty was way too strained to be believable, but it can lead to some accidents that might lead to others accidents in a sort of rock rolling down of a mountain and ending up creating an avalanche.
So it's possible the guys went there without planning to murder anyone but then something happened and things took a turn for worse.

Also Ryukishi clearly hinted that in Prime the adults did something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Now, to explain who or what could force them, that's simple. Our Confession pretty much gives that answer. However, it's hard to reason out why Beatrice/Yasu would want to murder the family if not by the idea that she is mentally unstable. This is pretty much a given if you assume that she suffered brain trauma during her fall as a baby or is suffering through the emotional trauma of her life. It is possible that she has a number of mental issues, possibly depression, repressed anger and sadness, MPD, and has a hard time differing reality from her own delusions. So, her motive for the matters are probably the result of a skewered vision of reality, morality, and the value of life.

So, jjblue, what you say about the Golden Land being a forced fantasy could be the result of Yasu having a delusional belief that the Golden Land actually exists. Or it may be her simply stating that she's doing everyone a favor by killing them, taking them to a better place in the afterlife. Sadly, the theory of her mental instability isn't really strict in interpretation and can have multiple reasons for why Beatrice would do something. By the way, this is generally the same as the Final Culprit Theory made by Kylon. The major difference is that her brain injury is a major but not initial cause of her mental state since she had suffered it as a child and wouldn't have an identity for us to speak about.
While Yasu can have mental problems and likely had them, somehow I've heard time believing that, if she were to stage one of her games for real, it would have success. It requires quite a lot of cold blood from her but also from the accomplices, and a lot of luck. And, more important, it's sort of denied by the canon as Battler, while trying to escape with Beato, said she didn't kill anyone in their reality. My take of the scene is that Yasu might have thought to kill everyone, but either didn't have the gut to put her plan in action or was stopped.

So I'm more prone to think that Yasu only killed on the gameboard and, at best, she might have set up the conditions for the others to start killing, but didn't do the murders herself. Though we know so little about Prime that's hard to figure what really happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The biggest issue for me with any other theory is that it's clear what theory was intended and the themes of the work, flawed as they may be in execution, clearly array themselves around that particular theory. Believing there is some "hidden answer" requires the work to be reinterpreted thematically, and it never stands up to that. So either there is no hidden answer, or the hidden answer dispenses with the themes of the story... in which case those themes are pointless, and so is the work. Why bother, then?
This also. Rosatrice makes a good part of Umineko useless. I can understand how Rosa makes a better culprit than Yasu, and the Yasu's theory has its own weak sides but, at least, it fits with Umineko as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Arguably, Bern and Erika are right and that Golden Land doesn't exist anyway, except perhaps as an unattainable fantasy of Ange's imagination. Eva didn't die at her 1986 age (although Eva in ep8 acts like she both has and doesn't have her post-'86 memories anyway), Battler isn't even actually dead, and so forth. Allowing the Golden Land to exist is basically Ange's prerogative, so the disturbing implications of say Gohda (who has no family or close personal connection to anyone else) being "trapped" in the Golden Land whether he wanted to be there or not has nothing to do with "reality," where those people are simply dead. The whole thing with Tohya and Battler at the end of ep8 suggests either a metaphor for the former dying or just "allowing" the latter to escape to that mutual fantasy shared with him by "Yukari" so he can finally live as a person unburdened by Battler Ushiromiya's existence.

It's basically a pseudo-atheistic argument where the only "heaven" is conjured up by the living in the memory of the dead, so they behave as the living want and the living obviously can never join them there (if Ange dies, the fantasy of her memory dies with her unless it's shared)*. Of course then the work sort of casts an ambiguous light on the actual existence of witches, but let's not worry about that because it's obvious sequel-baiting and declaring that Bernkastel and Lambdadelta actually don't exist would obviously interfere with them showing up when Something Else Cries.

---

* This is actually one of the thematic issues that were just sort of tangential to ep8 that I thought was pretty interesting and covered in greater detail in Redaction. If KNM's work is a long attempt to provide a different answer to Umineko factually, mine is an even longer and more pretentious attempt to challenge it thematically. This is why I try to stay out of discussions of Rosatrice anymore.
Well, the golden land can also be Ange's fantasy and not just Beato but Eva had memory of past 1986. She apologized to Rudolf and Kyrie for how she mistreat Ange and they seemed to know too so it's like they've been informed about what happened after their death. Also in a way Battler and Eva died in 1986. Battler lost his memory while Eva's life and likely her personality took a brusque turn for the worse so you can say that 'her life ended in 1986' although she continued on living.

Ange said something about herself too having died in 1986, if I'm not wrong, referring merely to how her life had been destroyed by the tragedy, and not to her physical death.

In a way Umineko resembles Star Wars:

"Luke, Darth Vader killed your father!"

"Wait, Vader told me he's my father!"

"Well, what I meant is his dark side, which we'll conveniently call Darth Vader, killed his good side, which we'll conveniently call your father, so I didn't lie, I just told you something in a way that would surely mislead you but that according to my interpretation was technically correct."

"...."

Last edited by jjblue1; 2013-11-29 at 18:22.
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Old 2013-11-29, 21:38   Link #33396
Leafsnail
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Rosatrice is trying to make Rosa the gameboard culprit and the R-Prime culprit, right? I don't think she works very well for either. Under Rosatrice is it her writing the message bottles? If she is, why?

Incidentally, if there is an R-Prime culprit (which there may not be), I'm pretty sure it's Kyrie. We obviously don't have any real evidence, but all the data points we do have suggests that she is the one with the most plausible motivation and the best ability to do it (in addition to the obvious point about Eva).

Motive wise:
- She was raised to be a pitiless mafia leader
- She ran her business ruthlessly
- She is generally depicted as cold and calculating
- She once resolved to kill a largely innocent woman in order to get what she wanted
- There is an unbelievably terrible secret being kept from her, and learning it would probably cause her to snap

Ability wise:
- She almost certainly knew about Yasu's scheme, due to the fact that Yasu sent money to her house after the incident (she'd need her co-operation in order to leave Ange at home)
- She is generally presented as an extremely intelligent character, possibly the most intelligent on the entire island. This means she could easily have subverted Yasu's plan
- She was highly experienced in the use of firearms

It also works reasonably well thematically - if Battler had stayed around and gotten to know Kyrie as family, her anguish at learning Rudolf's secret may not have been as great. Also, Battler's return was probably what prompted Rudolf to reveal the secret, meaning that Battler coming back was what caused the murders.

So basically any other R-Prime culprit theory needs to try and at least match up to this amount of evidence. All of this stuff is fairly obvious, but I don't think we were given any real cause to challenge it in the later episodes (other than theories about no-one really being responsible).

Last edited by Leafsnail; 2013-11-30 at 08:45.
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Old 2013-11-30, 02:22   Link #33397
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Rosatrice is trying to make Rosa the gameboard culprit and the R-Prime culprit, right? I don't think she works very well for either. Under Rosatrice is it her writing the message bottles? If she is, why?

Incidentally, if there is an R-Prime culprit (which there may not be), I'm pretty sure it's Kyrie. We obviously don't have any real evidence, but all the data points we do have points to her as the person with the most plausible motivation and the best ability to do it (in addition to the obvious point about Eva).

Motive wise:
- She was raised to be a pitiless mafia leader
- She ran her business ruthlessly
- She is generally depicted as cold and calculating
- She once resolved to kill a largely innocent woman in order to get what she wanted
- There is an unbelievably terrible secret being kept from her, and learning it would probably cause her to snap

Ability wise:
- She almost certainly knew about Yasu's scheme, due to the fact that Yasu sent money to her house after (she'd need her co-operation in order to leave Ange at home)
- She is generally presented as an extremely intelligent character, possibly the most intelligent on the entire island. This means she could easily have subverted Yasu's plan
- She was highly experienced in the use of firearms

It also works reasonably well thematically - if Battler had stayed around and gotten to know Kyrie as family, her anguish at learning Rudolf's secret may not have been as great. Also, Battler's return was probably what prompted Rudolf to reveal the secret, meaning that Battler's coming back was what caused the murders.

So basically any other R-Prime culprit theory needs to try and at least match up to this amount of evidence. All of this stuff is fairly obvious, but I don't think we were given any real cause to challenge it in the later episodes (other than theories about no-one really being responsible).

And those theories(or the story that Meta-Battler pushed)was meant for Ange to move forward. Bernkastel revealed the 'truth' in the 7th game, and Aurora confirmed that truth exists within the Single Book.
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Old 2013-11-30, 07:26   Link #33398
Drifloon
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I think this post is pretty relevant to the current Rosatrice discussion.

Speaking of that site, they got done with EP3 recently, if anyone here is still following it.
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Old 2013-11-30, 10:37   Link #33399
Renall
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I think this post is pretty relevant to the current Rosatrice discussion.
I have this feeling that site and the Rosatrice people are like matter and anti-matter, given the latter's categorical rejection of Yasu and the former's slavish devotion to the character.

Of course, one side happens to be correct about the author's clear intent for the work, and correct that the work is character-centric. We're given the character, so we've got to make sense of it. "Attempting to explain the character away as somebody else despite no obvious factual connection between the two" is not really "making sense of it."
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2013-11-30, 14:10   Link #33400
rogerpepitone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The family might have a substantial reason to kill each other and actually Umineko gave some:
money problems
discord between siblings deeply rooted in their past
Kinzo's death being hidden, which was a definite source of strain for Krauss and Natsuhi
Some siblings being prone at violent attacking each other
Instability of Rosa but likely, in a more subtle, tamer way, of Eva also
Kyrie and Rudolf's weak coscience

Also, although hinted way more vaguely, there could have been discord even between the cousins.
Anybody on Rokkenjima might have motive to kill any single other person, but kill everybody?


Also, the killer lacks an exit strategy. Whatever else happens, the next day will have the killer one of the few (only?) people left on the island. Any such person is naturally going to fall under suspicion.
Sure, Hideyoshi might have reason to kill Rudolf (to pull two names out of a hat), but why would he do such a crime on Rokkenjima? Why not do it off the island, where the suspect pool is way larger?
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