Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 04 Discussion / Poll

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Geass

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessi...European_Union

Tada!

Yep, it looks like I remembered correctly. Turkey's going through the bureaucracy and paperwork, but there are those who really don't want to expand the EU, and is making it difficult.

[Geass]

Yep, looks like they're doing their research this time.

[Anh_Minh]

Random thoughts:

I really wish they'd stop saying "Celestial Being" every other sentence. It's starting to make "Gundam Meister" sound acceptable...

Taribian grunts have truly horrible aim.

Marina seems to be keeping her brain in somebody else's skull. A somebody who looks good with glasses.

The Celestial Beings employ a lot of idiots.

Boy, the kids in 00 are surly. I don't usually advocate the use of clowns or hugs, but something must be done.

Originally Posted by Blaat

When Exia launches from Tokyo Bay wouldn't any of Tokyo airport's radar or what not pick it up on their screen or does GN-particles have a stealth effect?

Radar, schmadar. It's close to the shore and the surface enough for Setsuna to reach it by swimming to it in his streetclothes, so how come nobody saw it?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Funkatron

All the interventions before this one were old conflicts. There was no real way to end them but to get in between.

This one was nice and fresh. Yes, Taribia did start it, so the easiest way to handle it would be to quell them instead of just getting in the middle like they've done before

Perhaps, but again this isn't consistent with their previous actions. What they've always done is to attack the instigator of any conflict. It certainly makes more sense given that they would hardly be able to discourage further conflicts if they were to attack the victim.

Originally Posted by Funkatron

It's been states several times that the GN particles block Radar and pretty much messes up most electronics

This sounds an awful lot like an active stealth system. While such systems are good at hiding the exact location of a unit, it also alerts any detectors as to the presence of such a unit. I wonder why no one's been able to tell that their electronics are being interfered with so far.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I am confused... How can something be no more impossible than anything else, yet at the same time be out-right weird?

I was addressing Geass' remarks with two unrelated points to reach a common conclusion: that a union of Greece and China isn't much more unlikely in 300 years isn't really any more unlikely than a union of China, Russia and India. A "wierd" occurence in historical terms would be anything that happens outside of our expectation. However, that doesn't mean that they're impossible. The rise of the Soviet Union as a superpower in the 20th century is an excellent example - almost no one would/could have predicted such a rapid rise.

The background material is sort of interesting, but it certainly isn't any more (or less for that matter) realistic than we see in other shows. It also works best if we don't try to examine it critically.

Originally Posted by Geass

Union of Solar Energy and Free Nations: North America + South America + Japan + Australia, this isn't unrealistic even by current standards.

Save for the idea that Japan would surrender its sovereignty to any other polity, you'd be correct.

Originally Posted by Geass

Human Reform League: Russia + China + India, a communist resurgence is not unlikely, something which could herald a return to communist Russia, which joined in an alliance with China, and then at some point could have either conquered or conviced India to join them.

Eh... no. These countries have actually fought each other fairly recently, and are each other's greatest rivals. Under modern conditions, I'd sooner expect a union of China and the US. This is especially true given the split between European and Asian Russia - Asian Russia is probably more Russian-centrist than the European portion is.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I really wish they'd stop saying "Celestial Being" every other sentence. It's starting to make "Gundam Meister" sound acceptable...

Ditto. Is there some sort of rule where we have to hear it a dozen times an episode or something like that?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Marina seems to be keeping her brain in somebody else's skull. A somebody who looks good with glasses.

I believe that the problem here is that their conversation is basically information that the writers wanted to convey to the audience. They would have been much better off just putting it into the narration rather than repeating that "zero sum game" nonsense.

[Geass]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Save for the idea that Japan would surrender its sovereignty to any other polity, you'd be correct.

Eh... no. These countries have actually fought each other fairly recently, and are each other's greatest rivals. Under modern conditions, I'd sooner expect a union of China and the US. This is especially true given the split between European and Asian Russia - Asian Russia is probably more Russian-centrist than the European portion is.

To the first point, we know that the different countries still exist under the Union, so Japan may not have had to surrender their sovereignty.

To the second point, nobody has said how long the Human Reform League has existed, it could have been formed 10 years before the show, giving them 290 years to get over their differences.

[Papaya]

Indeed, they are just supergovernments, a la the United Nations, albeit a lot more centralized.

Anyways, we can already see that the AEU is definitely composed of member nations, or at least led by a group of people. I'm not surprised that the Union would be centered in Washington, DC, with the American president acting as the leader--well, actually, for all we know, he may as well be a Canadian =P

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Geass

To the first point, we know that the different countries still exist under the Union, so Japan may not have had to surrender their sovereignty.

What we know is that there are different levels of government. However, if the countries were truly sovereign, Taribia wouldn't have had to secede.

Originally Posted by Geass

To the second point, nobody has said how long the Human Reform League has existed, it could have been formed 10 years before the show, giving them 290 years to get over their differences.

That's precisely my point: there's all sorts of possibilities as to what happened, but the HRL isn't really any more unlikely to form than Sino-Greece.

Originally Posted by Papaya

Indeed, they are just supergovernments, a la the United Nations, albeit a lot more centralized.

In a way, we can look at it like the different states in the US - separate, but part of an (indivisible) whole.

Given the Taribian tirade against "America", I think that it's safe to say that the Union's policies are dominated by its American members. The AEU's political makeup may very well be different from that of the HRL or the Union. So far, they're the only power bloc that seems to include its constituent members in high level policy discussions.

[Geass]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

What we know is that there are different levels of government. However, if the countries were truly sovereign, Taribia wouldn't have had to secede.

That's precisely my point: there's all sorts of possibilities as to what happened, but the HRL isn't really any more unlikely to form than Sino-Greece.

In a way, we can look at it like the different states in the US - separate, but part of an (indivisible) whole.

Given the Taribian tirade against "America", I think that it's safe to say that the Union's policies are dominated by its American members. The AEU's political makeup may very well be different from that of the HRL or the Union. So far, they're the only power bloc that seems to include its constituent members in high level policy discussions.

Perhaps, but one could also draw a parallel with the USEFN and the EU (with the larger nations in the EU "dominating" it). The only thing I was trying to state was that at least Sunrise was trying to keep the political alignments within the realms of possiblity, rather than throwing us a bizarre political climate with little to no background explanation.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Geass

Perhaps, but one could also draw a parallel with the USEFN and the EU (with the larger nations in the EU "dominating" it).

I wasn't aware that the European Union president could unilaterally launch troops against a member state. Beside, no country dominates the EU - in the Council of Ministers, Germany, France, Italy and the United Kingdom each have 29 votes, but there are 345 total. The European Parliament's power is similarly diluted, every country has the same number of members on the European Council, and the European Commission is supposed to be altogether independent of the individual nations.

Originally Posted by Geass

The only thing I was trying to state was that at least Sunrise was trying to keep the political alignments within the realms of possiblity, rather than throwing us a bizarre political climate with little to no background explanation.

Given a 300-year timespan, almost any political alignment is within the realms of possibility. What the creators were trying to do was to create political power blocs similar to the current ones - this is why all of the conflicts so far are effectively modern ones. They do so to a degree with the AEU and the Union, but the HRL is a different story.

[neoeagle]

Wow that seen that setsuna is looking and whole city get bombed, is sad.
Very good episode. Gundam 00 is more adult oriented then any previous gundams.
Some hardcore stuffs are going on , no more WTFPWNAGE kiddy gundams(cough seed).

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Perhaps, but again this isn't consistent with their previous actions. What they've always done is to attack the instigator of any conflict. It certainly makes more sense given that they would hardly be able to discourage further conflicts if they were to attack the victim.

Yup, it's Taribia who decides to taunt the US and attract military attacks. It's like, say, Alaska suddenly decides to say "hey I'm independent from US now, and I'll keep my oil all to myself". The Celestial Being are indeed quite consistent in doing what they have announced to do, they'll attack anyone who is participating in armed conflicts, and anyone who invoke such conflicts. In this case, Taribia is the one who invoked a conflict, and the US army has not opened fire yet.

[tabun]

Originally Posted by 4tran

Perhaps, but again this isn't consistent with their previous actions. What they've always done is to attack the instigator of any conflict. It certainly makes more sense given that they would hardly be able to discourage further conflicts if they were to attack the victim.

The one provoking a 100% certain attack from Union forces was, in this case, Tarivia. That aside, by stripping Tarivia of it's only defense, thus driving it back into the Union's arms, Celestial Being has accomplished two things at once: avoid (more) casualties in both side's armies and Tarivia's civilian population, as well as quell any further military conflict between the Union and Tarivia due to their new enemy, against wich they now stand united.
The only possiblity for Celestial Being to stop all war between all factions on earth would indeed be to present the greatest threat to all factions at once, thus uniting them agains this greatest threat of all.

[edf91]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Save for the idea that Japan would surrender its sovereignty to any other polity, you'd be correct.

It's not quite that bad - Japan is basically "borrowing" US's military strength to survive currently, although they are still going to build up their own military, but since their defeat in WW2, they have been "idolizing" the US for quite a while. Yes, they will probably never give up their own nationality, but IF the world is breaking into three fractions, I would see Japan join the one US is in.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Eh... no. These countries have actually fought each other fairly recently, and are each other's greatest rivals. Under modern conditions, I'd sooner expect a union of China and the US. This is especially true given the split between European and Asian Russia - Asian Russia is probably more Russian-centrist than the European portion is.

Not sure where you get your information from, but in reality, at least politically, China is more closely aligned to Russia then the US, simply because China knows that US is a "wolf" - they will eat you alive more than actually helping you, so it make more sense for them to "buddy up" with Russia, who are also against the US domination in the world theater.. Not to mention their political structure are really similar. Just look at China and Russia's stance in Iran should hint at this relationship. Not 100% sure about India, but with US "support" of Pakistan, it make sense for them to not be in Union.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by tabun

The one provoking a 100% certain attack from Union forces was, in this case, Tarivia. That aside, by stripping Tarivia of it's only defense, thus driving it back into the Union's arms, Celestial Being has accomplished two things at once: avoid (more) casualties in both side's armies and Tarivia's civilian population, as well as quell any further military conflict between the Union and Tarivia due to their new enemy, against wich they now stand united.
The only possiblity for Celestial Being to stop all war between all factions on earth would indeed be to present the greatest threat to all factions at once, thus uniting them agains this greatest threat of all.

Four gundams aren't the kind of threats they need to unite against. Either they're unstoppable no matter what you throw at them, and uniting won't change anything, or they can actually be squashed like bugs with sheer numbers, and any of them can do it on its own without help from the other two.

Besides, even if they unite against the CB... What about after the war?

[lubczyk]

This Episode made me think of something:

Celestial Being is trying to end war by responding with conventional force (Mobile Suits) to conventional force (destroying other mobile suits and standing armies).

Since the presence of the Gundams make the use of conventional force impractical, wouldn't that lead to a lot of proxy wars and the use of unconventional warfare.

Celestial Being can cripple conventional militaries but they can't stop suicide bombings, assassinations, hit and run tactics and guerilla warfare. Look at Princess Marina's Kingdom of Azadistan:

The Gundams can't stop those suicide bombers, plain-clothes fighters and the decentralized militant groups. Celestial Being can't really do a thing in the case of Azadistan. I wonder if Celestial Being is aware of this?

Given a real life analogy: Celestial Being could stop the US military, the Chinese military and the Russian military, but they couldn't stop Al Qaeda, Hezbollah or Hamas. They could prevent those groups, like the Real IRA from using Mobile Suits in terrorist attacks, but what would prevent bombings and assassinations?

Celestial Being's actions could, in real-world terms, encourage proxy wars with the HRL, Union, and the AEU using paramilitary groups to carry out their military, political and economic objectives.

I think Celestial beings actions will encourage more terrorism and chaos like we see in Azadistan and less direct intervention like we saw in Sri Lanka and Talibia using conventional arms.

This is just my take, whatever course of logic the director decides to take the series is up to him.

[cors8]

Originally Posted by lubczyk

This Episode made me think of something:

Celestial Being is trying to end war by responding with conventional force (Mobile Suits) to conventional force (destroying other mobile suits and standing armies).

Since the presence of the Gundams make the use of conventional force impractical, wouldn't that lead to a lot of proxy wars and the use of unconventional warfare.

Celestial Being can cripple conventional militaries but they can't stop suicide bombings, assassinations, hit and run tactics and guerilla warfare. Look at Princess Marina's Kingdom of Azadistan:

The Gundams can't stop those suicide bombers, plain-clothes fighters and the decentralized militant groups. Celestial Being can't really do a thing in the case of Azadistan. I wonder if Celestial Being is aware of this?

Given a real life analogy: Celestial Being could stop the US military, the Chinese military and the Russian military, but they couldn't stop Al Qaeda, Hezbollah or Hamas. They could prevent those groups, like the Real IRA from using Mobile Suits in terrorist attacks, but what would prevent bombings and assassinations?

Celestial Being's actions could, in real-world terms, encourage proxy wars with the HRL, Union, and the AEU using paramilitary groups to carry out their military, political and economic objectives.

I think Celestial beings actions will encourage more terrorism and chaos like we see in Azadistan and less direct intervention like we saw in Sri Lanka and Talibia using conventional arms.

This is just my take, whatever course of logic the director decides to take the series is up to him.

Well I think it depends on how good CB's intelligence is. It's possible they know the locations of various leaders, safe-houses, etc. of various groups and can strike at them if those groups act.

We also don't know if they are willing to sacrifice some civilians for the greater good since they haven't had to deal with such a situation yet. I have no doubts that they know collateral damage is unavoidable though.

[4Tran]

Largely off-topic current events comments:

Originally Posted by edf91

It's not quite that bad - Japan is basically "borrowing" US's military strength to survive currently, although they are still going to build up their own military, but since their defeat in WW2, they have been "idolizing" the US for quite a while.

They've "idolized" the US since Perry decided to pay a visit to Japan (that's how far "yakyu" dates back). Japan didn't exactly feel any wish to join the US then; nor did they wish to do so when they were actually occupied by American troops in 1945. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Japan's current political position, but while their only real ally in the world is the US, significantly closer ties between the two countries are extremely unlikely in the foreseeable future.

Originally Posted by edf91

Yes, they will probably never give up their own nationality, but IF the world is breaking into three fractions, I would see Japan join the one US is in.

There are plenty of countries outside of the power blocs, so it'd be most likely that Japan stayed out of them altogether. Japan's position is especially precarious since they're just next door to the mass of the HRL's power while the rest of the Union's territories are half a world away.

Originally Posted by edf91

Not sure where you get your information from, but in reality, at least politically, China is more closely aligned to Russia then the US, simply because China knows that US is a "wolf" - they will eat you alive more than actually helping you, so it make more sense for them to "buddy up" with Russia, who are also against the US domination in the world theater..

You seem to be unfamiliar with the geopolitical situation, so I'll lay it out - for the most part, China doesn't view the US as a rival; this is largely an idea made up by American "pundits". Instead, its greatest rivals are Russia and India. Likewise, Russia's greatest strategic and military threat is China (the majority of Russia's best troops are stationed in the Far East), and India's greatest strategic and military threat is also China. I believe that China and Russia have already settled their border dispute, but the one between India and China is still quite serious.

While there is a degree of cooperation between these three countries (especially when it comes to dealing with the Central Asian countries), there's also a lot of caution as well. About the only thing that the three countries agree on is that they're all interested in checking American power - a goal that has already been largely realized by poor decision-making by the State Department and the executive.

Originally Posted by edf91

Not to mention their political structure are really similar.

No, they aren't. Besides, if you think that similiarities in government between different countries necessarily lead to a political alignment, then you're obviously forgetting about the rift (and undeclared war) between the Soviet Union and China when they were both still communist countries.

Originally Posted by edf91

Just look at China and Russia's stance in Iran should hint at this relationship. Not 100% sure about India, but with US "support" of Pakistan, it make sense for them to not be in Union.

China's closest ally in the region is Pakistan because it serves as a counterweight to Indian power. Russian-Indian relations have improved recently, but that's partially so that they can counter China's phenomonal growth in economic power, military strength and political influence. While all three countries are interested in keeping the US from interfering with Iran, they do so for their own purposes. Moreover, an alignment of interests in one issue doesn't imply an alignment in general political purposes at all.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

There are plenty of countries outside of the power blocs, so it'd be most likely that Japan stayed out of them altogether. Japan's position is especially precarious since they're just next door to the mass of the HRL's power while the rest of the Union's territories are half a world away.

The "plenty of countries" outside of the power blocs are all current third world countries (Middle East, Africa). All industrialized first world and former second world countries are part of one of the three fractions.

You're ignoring the reason WHY that's the case. The power blocs are created because humanity's source for energy is centered in THREE orbital elevators, each controlled by one of the three sides. Obviously, any nation that is not part of the three sides would probably face tremendous energy crises, and therefore a technologically advanced nation like Japan would definitely be pressed to join up with one of the sides. And that side being the same as that of the US, most likely their "longtime ally since the 20th century", would best suit them.

[Empire]

Besides annoying "celestial beingu-da" and "zero-sum game"...

can someone explain me how:
1) setsuna can swim so deep without ANY equipment?!
2) they made all those modifications to Flag in such a short time?
3) Excia can function underwater?
4) Guy with clearly japanese name "Setsuna" be a Kurd?
5) Fansubbers can make so many mistakes in the name of a country belonging to Talib people? (damn it people, it's B, taliB, not tariv/taliv/talir/, and the country is not trivia nor tarivia -_-")

And I honestly can't see big difference between freedom-grunt-pwning and excia-grunt-pwning. So they move a little bit before being annihilated? Big deal, really. And even secondary characters can't put up a good fight against gun-damns, compared to hard times that Kruze team or Crazy Trio gave Kira in oryginal SEED, Tieren vs Excia and Flag/Custom Flag vs Excia look like a parody of a good duel. And that was only omfg-so-plotshielded Kira in SEED, I don't want to even try to compare double O to X or UC's...

It's still better than Wing tough ; p

Oh, and I see that I'm not the only one who have seen similarities between Tierens and Wanzers

[Marsala]

Originally Posted by Empire

Besides annoying "celestial beingu-da" and "zero-sum game"...

can someone explain me how:
1) setsuna can swim so deep without ANY equipment?!

Um... typical anime unrealistic human abilities? Also, it may not be all that deep in the water, which leads to other concerns of discovery.

2) they made all those modifications to Flag in such a short time?

Typical sci-fi super engineering, like the Enterprise going Warp 11 because aliens from Andromeda fixed it up.

3) Excia can function underwater?

Apparently so, though it may not be able to fight effectively. The GN propulsion system doesn't rely on typical engines, after all.

4) Guy with clearly japanese name "Setsuna" be a Kurd?

It's a code name, probably for his cover of living in Japan. This has been confirmed by official materials. All of the Gundam Meisters' first names are code names. His last name of Seiei is more unusual and may (or may not) be his real surname.

Also, Japan seems to have adopted the Western style of first name, family name as seen with Saji Crossroad (now there's a weird name).

5) Fansubbers can make so many mistakes in the name of a country belonging to Talib people? (damn it people, it's B, taliB, not tariv/taliv/talir/, and the country is not trivia nor tarivia -_-")

In fairness, we didn't see the official Romanization until this episode, and Talibia is a totally made-up country in the location of modern Venezuela.