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Old 2016-05-15, 12:52   Link #121
Redoaxe
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Brazil
Age: 24
Damn, those drop rates are lame. I've used over 20 1/2 elixirs and got only one unknown light gun drop, guess I'll have to buy the overpriced one in the shop.
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Old 2016-05-15, 13:31   Link #122
Klashikari
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv168
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Light Gun from the event? Go final level break it.
You won't need that many event weapons in the first place, and light set up needs it less.
But is always good to secure at least one or two event weapons per element with final level break.
Actually, 3 or 4. You never know if you are going to get grande, and in that case, you need 4 EX weapons to work with it. Furthermore, it is unlikely they will do any other light EX weapon, so it is best to secure as many as possible and not just 1.

There are plenty other opportunities to have SSR guns to break. Breaking EX weapons is a waste unless you already have 4 of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redoaxe View Post
Damn, those drop rates are lame. I've used over 20 1/2 elixirs and got only one unknown light gun drop, guess I'll have to buy the overpriced one in the shop.
20 half elixir is a very good average. I and some other people had to spend 40+ for only one you know. And if you can spend that many pots for drops, exchanging all 3 guns isn't exactly an issue. It is actually not overpriced compared to previous shop items.
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Old 2016-05-15, 16:51   Link #123
shmaster
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Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Actually, 3 or 4. You never know if you are going to get grande, and in that case, you need 4 EX weapons to work with it. Furthermore, it is unlikely they will do any other light EX weapon, so it is best to secure as many as possible and not just 1.

There are plenty other opportunities to have SSR guns to break. Breaking EX weapons is a waste unless you already have 4 of them.
I am not talking about breaking weapon, but the final level break. >_>
Everyone knows breaking SR weapons from gacha are more efficient than breaking event weapons.

And aiming for a Light Grande set up is not worth it, as a full light team set up is better than the light Grande in almost every way.
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Old 2016-05-15, 16:55   Link #124
Klashikari
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
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I know that you didn't mean that. I added an extra line just in case some people were tempted to break Raphael extra past the first one MLB.

Also, Light grande setup is actually legit simply because you have more flexibility with characters and it is actually stronger than Gun/Swords mix Chev + Lucifer 120% already. Whilst pure chev sword is king, it is arguably not realistic without damascus and whatnot, and it is still weaker in term of pure damage than Grande (although light grande will suffer from light poor HP as it cannot include swords for optimized damage).
Even if you lose damage with the 2 non light characters, you compensate that with the light characters benefiting from the much higher modifiers, and access to unlikely supports (such as Altair buff and whatnot).
I'm not even considering Zoe in the equation considering her availability as far as itgoes.

Collecting 3-4 Raphael + 5 chev guns + cosmos gun is actually more realistic than 8-9 chev swords, assuming you have grande, that is.
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Old 2016-05-15, 18:49   Link #125
Kirayuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Whilst pure chev sword is king, it is arguably not realistic without damascus and whatnot, and it is still weaker in term of pure damage than Grande (although light grande will suffer from light poor HP as it cannot include swords for optimized damage).
Even if you lose damage with the 2 non light characters, you compensate that with the light characters benefiting from the much higher modifiers, and access to unlikely supports (such as Altair buff and whatnot).
I'm not even considering Zoe in the equation considering her availability as far as itgoes.
This is a bit incorrect, the actual numbers only looks higher on paper.
The actual damage your "total party" deal still win with the pure Chev Sword setup.
Before I continue on, let me stress out I know it's more realistic and affordable plan than going all Chev Swords.
I'm just pointing out that Light Grande doesn't really win out in term of pure damage.

Here you go,
(Note that it's purely weapon and summon stat and doesn't take protagonist rank/job/master and weapon proficiency bonus into account)

Light Grande (for Light chars)
Images
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Light Grande (for the supporting char, the screen use wind but you can replace with any other one and it'd still be the same)
Images
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(you can sort of replace the Lucifer Friend with another Grande to optimize the damage of the supporting chars for a bit, but you get less damage on your main Light attackers, even more so if you are against non-dark enemies)

Light with full Chev Sword
Images
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(you can switch out one of the sword with Raphael or Baha/Cosmos with another Sword, but the difference is really minimum on damage)

You can pick out the numbers and do the math from there
Spoiler for Space:

And even if we add supporting char from other element, the majority of their damage buffs are part of normal multipliers which is something that will diminish a lot on Grande setup.
Unless you are using Korwa, which is unique slot on its own, or you are looking for other utilities, the damage difference will become even more further if you add normal buffs into account.
Also, using Grande means you will likely drop Feri OR use her with only 1 slot left for Attacker, potentially further reducing your overall damage.
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Old 2016-05-15, 19:02   Link #126
Klashikari
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv168
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 32
That's why I said "pure chev sword setup is king", but mentioned the issue of having a full set.
I never claimed Grande team is overall better whatsoever. I mentioned that the damage output is still there, although mostly carried by maximum 2 characters while the other 2 are mostly for support purpose.

The whole point is that you just can't discard the possibility of making use of 3-4 copies of Raphael as Grande can be a viable option. Needless to say, it is generally a matter of being lucky with the gacha or with chevalier. Raphael becomes pointless if you are swimming in Chev swords, but then again, assembling a full sword deck requires more money/luck than pulling Grande then MLB with GW stones imo. Not saying pulling Grande is a common/easy feat either though.
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Old 2016-05-15, 19:36   Link #127
Kirayuki
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Join Date: Jul 2012
I don't need to go as far as full Chev Sword, to be honest
Here is a mix of only 1 Chev Sword + Guns
Images
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You can multiply the numbers by 4, and you got more or less the same total damage as the Grande one (This one probably win eventually if you count the normal buffs like Rage, unless you use Korwa).
And everything in here can be completely exchanged from shop or farmed, no luck needed (which you still need to pull Grande from Gacha) except maybe getting 1 drop of Raphael.

I'm not denying the possibility here if you have Grande to play on, I'm just pointing out there is no urgent priority to hunt for 3-4 Raphael Guns considering the drop rate is not that good either.
Not saying you shouldn't use Grande or anything, actually.
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Old 2016-05-15, 20:04   Link #128
shmaster
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Join Date: May 2009
The point here is that the time and energy for grinding Raphael can be used for Chevalier Magna pubs instead.

Base on what I have collected, Raphael drops for about every 60 to 150 fight.
To get three maxed out Raphael, factoring the traded ones, means about like 540~1350 fight without being too lucky.

Those fights could have been spent in Chevalier Magna pubs with an Oliver Hawkeye and a Rabbit Stone, and 10 for those who have her.
This ought to fetch you around 2-3 Chevalier Swords.

The biggest enemy in collecting Chevalier Sword is not its rarity, but people getting discouraged or side tracking in front of that rarity.
But the truth is, if the players are willing to sacrifice couple of an Event or GW that aren't terribly necessary to sit in Chevalier pubs instead, a Chevalier Sword set up is totally doable within a year.
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Old 2016-05-15, 20:44   Link #129
Vigo
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Reading this stuff I feel like I chose the wrong element to focus on.

And if I don't get Grande is one EX weapon enough? I got lucky with the gun dropping twice early but nothing since then. Now I have one max broken Raphael and one normal. But if light EX are hard to get maybe I should try to get more.

I assume the only way to get Lucifer is via gacha?
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Old 2016-05-15, 21:01   Link #130
shmaster
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Join Date: May 2009
In a long run without The Order Grande, yeah, one Raphael is enough.
But UNK like these are rare in general, as they shows up only in collaboration events, and you don't know what element they'll give you next.
Before situation like this, the question to ask yourself is "What's your desired finals set up" and "Will it be worth it in a long run?"
For example, for those who does not main light and needs light set up only to fight Celeste. Grinding more Raphael is not a bad idea. They just need a "good enough" light set up in a long run, and mind as well meet their quota early.
On the other hand, a hardcore light main player could have spend the time grinding for Raphael for Chevalier Magna pubs instead. Every Chevalier raid count when it comes to the Chevalier Sword.

Lucifer? Gacha only, he won't show up on Surprise Ticket.
The only way to get him by using ticket is the special ticket that worth 150 moon, which requires massive whaling either way.
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Old 2016-05-15, 21:50   Link #131
Kirayuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Those fights could have been spent in Chevalier Magna pubs with an Oliver Hawkeye and a Rabbit Stone, and 10 for those who have her.
This ought to fetch you around 2-3 Chevalier Swords.
It's a bit diff. case, you can't really compare this solo quest with raids.
The former can only be farmed with AP and the latter have limitation each day how much you can hunt yourself, so to cover up that numbers you gonna use BP eventually.

Also, the number of Chev raids is not infinite.
I would not call for a specific number to compare them, the RNG can play hard with you since the drop rate is pretty small and you might not even get any sword at all with the same amount of AP if everyone running low on anima and as a result you won't be able to have numbers converge again.
Just for reference, many people who farmed hard on the Swords said getting 1 drop within 1500 runs is already lucky.
Not to mention getting into one raid of Chev is even harder during the campaign.

It's ultimately up to the user whether they want to gather multiple UNK for Grande or something to use for a while by grinding within the limited time period,
Or grinding the swords slowly (and there is a chance a new ideal setup coming later).
They can always do both anyway, they don't necessarily clash if you have both the time and resources.
So there is no best answer, it depends on what you need more at the time being.
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Old 2016-05-15, 22:30   Link #132
Vigo
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
In a long run without The Order Grande, yeah, one Raphael is enough.
But UNK like these are rare in general, as they shows up only in collaboration events, and you don't know what element they'll give you next.
Before situation like this, the question to ask yourself is "What's your desired finals set up" and "Will it be worth it in a long run?"
For example, for those who does not main light and needs light set up only to fight Celeste. Grinding more Raphael is not a bad idea. They just need a "good enough" light set up in a long run, and mind as well meet their quota early.
On the other hand, a hardcore light main player could have spend the time grinding for Raphael for Chevalier Magna pubs instead. Every Chevalier raid count when it comes to the Chevalier Sword.

Lucifer? Gacha only, he won't show up on Surprise Ticket.
The only way to get him by using ticket is the special ticket that worth 150 moon, which requires massive whaling either way.

Well Grande set up would be ideal for me personally because if I have to spend time and money with the game I would rather do it with and on the characters I like.

For example I adore Ferry so once I get the chance I will buy her even if she is not exactly a light team staple. The other would be Catalina. But the chance to get Grande is slim so I guess pure light set up has priority. Ferry is a must. Already spend lots of time grinding Chev but only got a single gun from her.

Speaking of buying characters. Can the surprise gacha be used more than once or is it a once per account thing?

And yeesh 150 moons. No thanks.
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Old 2016-05-16, 03:33   Link #133
Klashikari
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv168
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
On the other hand, a hardcore light main player could have spend the time grinding for Raphael for Chevalier Magna pubs instead. Every Chevalier raid count when it comes to the Chevalier Sword.
That's nice and dandy on theory, but there are way too many factors that do not have anything to do with farming an EX weapon alongside.
First and foremost, the drop rate and context are totally different: Raphael is a single player event drop that can be farmed for a given period of time but with a remotely decent droprate (a lot of people already got their second MLB gun within the first 2 days). Chevalier Sword requires you to join any chevalier raid you can find, which means you are subject to your group trend and huge competition over other people checking twitter reinforcement calls. And in that case, even if you are using Oliver + Rabbit + Essel, your chances to get a Sword are quite low especially if you can't take the MVP with that setup (and a LOT of people forgo that setup or part of it, and maximize their damage output for MVP).

This trend has to be repeated countless times within a very lond period. You can't do that with Raphael which will probably be never rereleased like how TalesOf event didn't get any rerun either.
And unless there is another collabo with a character using a gun that could be associated with Light element, there won't be any EX weapon of Raphael caliber any time soon.

As such, it isn't like spending your time grinding Raphael for 10 days at most will hurt your chevalier farming objective on the long run. Far from it. Instead, it potentially give an alternative option if you are very unlucky and still don't get enough chevalier swords even after going for 500+ chevalier during a 1/2 BP magna compaign (which happened to me with like 1/3 getting the MVP).
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Old 2016-05-16, 04:43   Link #134
shmaster
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Join Date: May 2009
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. In the end, between the 4 Raphael grind+Grande whaling and level up vs. Chevalier raid race during 1/2, I'll always choose the latter. Especially with a reasonable 2 to 3 Chevalier Sword set up is good enough to replace the light Grande set up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
Speaking of buying characters. Can the surprise gacha be used more than once or is it a once per account thing?
Once per account is the Starterdash.
Surprise Ticket is about every 3 or 4 month.

Last edited by shmaster; 2016-05-16 at 05:00.
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Old 2016-05-16, 13:23   Link #135
Kirayuki
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Join Date: Jul 2012
I don't think it really matters whether you can snatch the MVP or use full drop rate set up.
The drop rate from red box is still less than 0.5% if I am not mistaken.
And the drop rate from gold chest is originally somewhere around 0.1% or less, so even with 100% drop rate up it's still 0.2% at best.
I have to note you might even get less than 0.01% drop rate if you are unlucky since the numbers of Chevalier is not infinite and you are competing with other people so you might not even get chance for your efforts to converge up in the long run, if you see what I'm trying to say here about RNG.

While for Raphael, you can just keep going provided you have enough stock of AP.
So the cost:reward ratio here is more stable than farming Swords.
The only luck you really need here is pulling Grande itself (or solve it with money)

That said, assuming you can at least get in on the raid you can get lots of Gun too from Chev.
And I already pointed out before even with only 1 Sword setup, you don't need more than 1 Raphael.
So it's just a matter of preference here.
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Old 2016-05-16, 16:14   Link #136
Se7enSword
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Join Date: Aug 2008
I wish I had a better unknown sword instead of a -7%HP unknown katana, but the improvement towards my weapon pool has been tremendous! Managed to also acquire 2 colossus canes, one from shop and as a drop. Also finally made a bahamut dagger. I'm really gonna miss magfes when it ends.


I just need more fodder to skill level all these weapons now. Working towards GW sword at the moment. Close to forging it and Element changing it. Hopefully I can get that done by tomorrow evening.
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Old 2016-05-16, 19:23   Link #137
Redoaxe
ツンデレ。。。?
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Brazil
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
20 half elixir is a very good average. I and some other people had to spend 40+ for only one you know. And if you can spend that many pots for drops, exchanging all 3 guns isn't exactly an issue. It is actually not overpriced compared to previous shop items.
Really? I started about a month ago so I didn't know.

Anyway, just got another drop, I left my brother playing while I was doing some chores and when I got back he's like "I just got this SS rare thingy here" Goddamned beginners luck lol
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Old 2016-05-19, 23:20   Link #138
Shadow5YA
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Join Date: Mar 2010
I bought all three Raphaels in the shop.

Still waiting for Dark Kamui to flip one
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Old 2016-05-20, 07:32   Link #139
Insaint
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Join Date: Apr 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Se7enSword View Post
I wish I had a better unknown sword instead of a -7%HP unknown katana, but the improvement towards my weapon pool has been tremendous! Managed to also acquire 2 colossus canes, one from shop and as a drop. Also finally made a bahamut dagger. I'm really gonna miss magfes when it ends.


I just need more fodder to skill level all these weapons now. Working towards GW sword at the moment. Close to forging it and Element changing it. Hopefully I can get that done by tomorrow evening.
How many runs did it take for your colossus?
I am at 200+ runs running and still without a single staff, damn rotten luck.
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Old 2016-05-20, 15:19   Link #140
Se7enSword
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by Insaint View Post
How many runs did it take for your colossus?
I am at 200+ runs running and still without a single staff, damn rotten luck.
That one was around 120s
Just got my second drop today. I should get my 4th one next week via renown points.
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