(L+CR) Darling in the Franxx

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

while your opnion is like that and i don't care, the overal opnion over the anime is positive and the anime so far is considered a sucess see high positive views in many places and good pre order sales, this means the anime is a sucess rater than a fail or bad.

and in darling case so far it's a sucess until something else happen and change it.

Nobody here is arguing the popularity and the commercial success of Franxx (so far). We're here to discuss the content of Franxx which is unrelated to how popular and commercially successful it is.

That's why I'm baffled when people like you bought up popularity and success in this discussion because that's not what I and others who criticize the show are talking about. Frankly, bringing up a show's popularity and commercial success is like a desperate last measure a fan can do to defend a show they like. So, your action actually brings more negative impression on the show and its fans then necessary. Talk more about the content and less about the popularity and commercial success, please.

[serenade_beta]

In the first place, what was the "commercial success"?
All I know is that it was less than Yurukyan and Sora yori Tooi Basho, around the 5000 range.


On a side note, got the opportunity to get a personal sketch by a Trigger/Darling animator.
Kokoro (and her attempts to make babies) FTW



PS:
To be honest, I didn't follow the conversation, but commercial success and popularity are not defenses of the quality of any anime's content.
I think it is actually a logical fallacy or something.
PPS: No, Darling's writing is not that good. Fun anime, yes. Good writing, mm...

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Nobody here is arguing the popularity and the commercial success of Franxx (so far). We're here to discuss the content of Franxx which is unrelated to how popular and commercially successful it is.

That's why I'm baffled when people like you bought up popularity and success in this discussion because that's not what I and others who criticize the show are talking about. Frankly, bringing up a show's popularity and commercial success is like a desperate last measure a fan can do to defend a show they like. So, your action actually brings more negative impression on the show and its fans then necessary. Talk more about the content and less about the popularity and commercial success, please.

first i told which my "opnion and overal opnion is positive and don't see all the Bad writing you claim" you asked proofs i and others give that proofs then you "refused that proofs" using your "own vision" and that was the point the anime in general does work in anime industry if public answer in general is positive and you get more "positive critics them the anime "not was that bad writing at all, that how anime system works, the critics are the "target public audience not a small bunch of guys, japaneses would rater watch themselfs to take conclusions rater than just trust in "few" poeples.

That is why western sites follow the same pattern, they do have they own "critics doing reviews but they reviews are "good" as any other non site critic.

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

In the first place, what was the "commercial success"?
All I know is that it was less than Yurukyan and Sora yori Tooi Basho, around the 5000 range.


On a side note, got the opportunity to get a personal sketch by a Trigger/Darling animator.
Kokoro (and her attempts to make babies) FTW



PS:
To be honest, I didn't follow the conversation, but commercial success and popularity are not defenses of the quality of any anime's content.
I think it is actually a logical fallacy or something.

hmm last time someone pointed the estimated sales was around 7k, but 5k still good
for a original anime.

yeah the thing was which japan reviews are doing by the fans themselfs, you don't have things like rooten tomatos(which is not even a reliable source a long time since you get a lot of bad movies having a lot of positive reviews many peoples stopped to care about them).
They use the fans reception as a way to see if the anime was good or bad, if majority thing the anime is good or average them it is a average, if it get heavy criticized and low rates them it's a failure, that is how anime work, this anime actually is having more positive reviews and reception than negatives, and even the positive point some bad points in the anime, that is why somtimes you get the anime staff sometimes doing some sort of apologies when a episode was bad or the anime was bad, they looks at the public reception, if it have more positve tham negative them overal it was good reviews ofcourse they will pay attention to the bad ones too and see what was bad and compare with the good ones, if you get some "agreement on the bad things then that is where they falied and things like that.

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

yeah the thing was which japan reviews are doing by the fans themselfs, you don't have things like rooten tomatos(which is not even a reliable source a long time since you get a lot of bad movies having a lot of positive reviews many peoples stopped to care about them).
They use the fans reception as a way to see if the anime was good or bad, if majority thing the anime is good or average them it is a average, if it get heavy criticized and low rates them it's a failure, that is how anime work, this anime actually is having more positive reviews and reception than negatives, and even the positive point some bad points in the anime, that is why somtimes you get the anime staff sometimes doing some sort of apologies when a episode was bad or the anime was bad, they looks at the public reception, if it have more positve tham negative them overal it was good reviews ofcourse they will pay attention to the bad ones too and see what was bad and compare with the good ones, if you get some "agreement on the bad things then that is where they falied and things like that.

It took me a while to figure out what you were trying to say, but I guess you are describing to me what you consider determines an anime's success.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

first i told which my "opnion and overal opnion is positive and don't see all the Bad writing you claim" you asked proofs i and others give that proofs then you "refused that proofs" using your "own vision" and that was the point the anime in general does work in anime industry if public answer in general is positive and you get more "positive critics them the anime "not was that bad writing at all, that how anime system works, the critics are the "target public audience not a small bunch of guys, japaneses would rater watch themselfs to take conclusions rater than just trust in "few" poeples.

That is why western sites follow the same pattern, they do have they own "critics doing reviews but they reviews are "good" as any other non site critic.

Meh, this is why popularity is often irrelevant to quality. Sometimes, the bars will align, but some other times, they don't.

There have been countless cases of well-written and well-executed anime in which they had terrible sales and people at large ignored them when it comes to the market at the time.

TL;DR…

 

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Let's see if people will still talk about Franxx's story instead of the waifus and shipping 5-10 years from now.

[wissenschaft]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Let's see if people will still talk about Franxx's story instead of the waifus and shipping 5-10 years from now.

You do know that a show can still have good writing even if its not so amazing that it redefines the anime scene for years to come. I get it, DinF has garbage writing. Got it. Lets move on.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

It took me a while to figure out what you were trying to say, but I guess you are describing to me what you consider determines an anime's success.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Meh, this is why popularity is often irrelevant to quality. Sometimes, the bars will align, but some other times, they don't.

There have been countless cases of well-written and well-executed anime in which they had terrible sales and people at large ignored them when it comes to the market at the time.

TL;DR…

 

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Let's see if people will still talk about Franxx's story instead of the waifus and shipping 5-10 years from now.

just to end this discussion a fun factor is which "even negative reviews" are looked as "positive in many cases, like ship wars, or power levels( a is strong than b, b is a weakling), they hiring peoples to watch things like twitter and others sources of review and japaneses as i told they like to take they own conclusions leading to a curious and funny trick which can work, like if you have a movie or anime which you want your japanese friend watch, one good trick is "bash the show" don't give too much spoilers, just claim the show is bad and crap and bla bla bla, it have a high chance to trigger the person to watch this(also you have others facts like the guy taste, free time and being curious himself about the show), the more that elements combine the big is the chance of him go to watch it to see if you are saying the truth, i'm not saying which this is bad(this was told by a brasilian youtuber talking about curiosities when he was living in japan, he talked who he had some japaneses friends which did it a lot some of them even where the type of "really this show is so bad?? wow i never gonna watch it, then the next day he comes talking about the show as he had watched it ) but it's really interestinf they curiosity and sense of self critics

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by wissenschaft

You do know that a show can still have good writing even if its not so amazing that redefined the anime scenes for years to come. I get it, DinF has garbage writing. Got it. Lets move on.

I agree with the "move on" part, but I disagree with you throwing yet another strawman argument at me. Nobody said anything about the need to "redefine" anime to be good. I'm just saying that time will eventually tell how good your favorite anime really is.

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

Spoiler for saving space:

just to end this discussion a fun factor is which "even negative reviews" are looked as "positive in many cases, like ship wars, or power levels( a is strong than b, b is a weakling), they hiring peoples to watch things like twitter and others sources of review and japaneses as i told they like to take they own conclusions leading to a curious and funny trick which can work, like if you have a movie or anime which you want your japanese friend watch, one good trick is "bash the show" don't give too much spoilers, just claim the show is bad and crap and bla bla bla, it have a high chance to trigger the person to watch this(also you have others facts like the guy taste, free time and being curious himself about the show), the more that elements combine the big is the chance of him go to watch it to see if you are saying the truth, i'm not saying which this is bad(this was told by a brasilian youtuber talking about curiosities when he was living in japan, he talked who he had some japaneses friends which did it a lot some of them even where the type of "really this show is so bad?? wow i never gonna watch it, then the next day he comes talking about the show as he had watched it ) but it's really interestinf they curiosity and sense of self critics

I'm trying a bit hard to understand what you're trying to say among that rather-chaotic paragraph, but I think I get it.

That said, my point above still applies. After all the dust are settled and all the hoopla is over, time will tell the actual quality of an anime.

[wissenschaft]

Ugh, apparently everything I say is a strawman argument. SHRUG. You win. Not sure what but whatever.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

I do not think that it makes us better or worse, but it makes us what we are. There have been other scifi stories (I can't remember the titles) that talk about the same subject, about how we will feel different about many things if i.e. we stopped breathing, or eating.

From a biological standpoint, it is a huge gamble for a species to stop reproducing due to immortality, you just need a cataclysm and voila, the whole population is wiped with no means to replenish itself. Heck, you do not need a cataclysm, what stops humans from going Zeus and start killing their own brethren?

Well, but that's part of what makes no sense about this setting. That's the problem with the writing. It has everyone act as either morons or evil when there's no need, then it tells us "LOOK HOW EVIL AND STUPID MANKIND IS!". No, mankind can be both evil and stupid, but in this show the writers are forcing its hand. Realistically, if they do have wombtank technology, they would still reproduce with that. Immortal humans will still have DNA. They can create genetic mixes of themselves, just artificially, and reproduce at a controlled rate to replace the ones who die of accidents or Klaxosaur attacks. The kids would be allowed to grow up and once they reach maturity they would undergo the immortality procedure. Heck, they could even harvest sperm and eggs before that and freeze them so they can use those to keep up the reproduction. This would be far more realistic than what we're seeing, and an actual sci-fi story: exploration of what would happen if some disruptive new technology changed our lives.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Well, but that's part of what makes no sense about this setting. That's the problem with the writing. It has everyone act as either morons or evil when there's no need, then it tells us "LOOK HOW EVIL AND STUPID MANKIND IS!". No, mankind can be both evil and stupid, but in this show the writers are forcing its hand. Realistically, if they do have wombtank technology, they would still reproduce with that. Immortal humans will still have DNA. They can create genetic mixes of themselves, just artificially, and reproduce at a controlled rate to replace the ones who die of accidents or Klaxosaur attacks. The kids would be allowed to grow up and once they reach maturity they would undergo the immortality procedure. Heck, they could even harvest sperm and eggs before that and freeze them so they can use those to keep up the reproduction. This would be far more realistic than what we're seeing, and an actual sci-fi story: exploration of what would happen if some disruptive new technology changed our lives.

It kinda made me miss Gargantia in which the normal humans (especially Red) were actually made aware that the sea-based squid transhumanists weren't the ultimate evil and both beings can co-exist while respecting each others' way of life, and they did as such (except maybe for pirates who always look for trouble).

[Norn]

Personally I just like this show because I like the characters. I like the main cast and seeing them deal with their world. Because of that, I don't have a strong need to see some world building here, because we are already seeing the main cast's world. And getting bits and pieces of information as things progress really makes the interest in this show grow (like for instance, they called the klaxosaur nest an ancient civilization, but it looks quite high tech in a sense).

I also love the interaction people have with the show and how nice the fan theories are. Sometimes people here will point out things that make me go "wow I missed that part", or "that's an interesting point of view". This show is surprisingly fun to talk about week after week, even if sometimes the arguments get pointlessly heated.

I never went in with the expectation that DiTF would be this era's new classic, as that's just an unrealistic point of view. You can't foresee the impact of a show that easily. Some popular shows have not withstood the test of time whilst others were less popular and yet they have a steady impact in the collective of the community.


I think it's okay to have criticism against this show. In fact, we should welcome it. But having the same point of criticism without adding something new to it, or saying week in week out how your lack of expectations were yet again validated does nothing for anyone involved. It's not constructive, you only get to pat your own back at most.

Originally Posted by wissenschaft

Dr. Franxx and his wife are a very minor detail unlike Gendo and Yui which were key parts of EVA's story. Its just a minor similarity thats all, for anime fans to have fun pointing out. I doubt we are going to hear about his wife again.

I've been wondering if the wife isn't directly related to the klaxosaur princess. She never was really into the whole "let's inject magma and become immortal", which puts her in opposition to the magmafolk. At the same time, her death should be certain.

When klax-hime mentions Dr.Franxx' sins, I wonder how she knew. The most probable and logical response is that because she can communicate telepathically, she should be able to receive too. But if she did, why would she kill mooks that weren't directly involved in the killing of Klaxosaurs? And if she can't read thoughts, then what are those sins she's referring to?

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

It kinda made me miss Gargantia in which the normal humans (especially Red) were actually made aware that the sea-based squid transhumanists weren't the ultimate evil and both beings can co-exist while respecting each others' way of life, and they did as such (except maybe for pirates who always look for trouble).

Partly true, but then Gargantia had that really WTF moment towards the end when Chamber basically said "it's okay, YOU guys are the real humans because you built me" and the whole speech sounded very much like it used him as an author mouthpiece. Gargantia had similar problems, just much less prominent.

[Skaddix]

These Humans have gotten pretty jaded after like 50 Years...I mean yeah I am sure life and immortality would get boring for humans after a while but 50 years? I mean sheesh that is still well within a normal Human lifespan. Seems like it should take longer especially when you are not alone or one of the few immortals around while everyone else you know is dying.

But yes this series will be more remembered for the memes in 5 Years...not the writing. It has a rather been there done that approach...yeah rich people getting richer over environmental exploitation unleashes a disaster and immortality not being a net good been there done that.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Norn

I never went in with the expectation that DiTF would be this era's new classic, as that's just an unrealistic point of view.

I think nobody in this thread came into the show expecting it to be a new classic of anything. I know I didn't. Are there others who thinks differently?

Originally Posted by Norn

You can't foresee the impact of a show that easily. Some popular shows have not withstood the test of time whilst others were less popular and yet they have a steady impact in the collective of the community.

Yep. That's precisely why people never talk about lackluster edgy shows like Guilty Crown now even though it was all the rage in the net back when it aired. I don't think many people even remember it aside from the soundtracks.

Originally Posted by Norn

I think it's okay to have criticism against this show. In fact, we should welcome it. But having the same point of criticism without adding something new to it, or saying week in week out how your lack of expectations were yet again validated does nothing for anyone involved. It's not constructive, you only get to pat your own back at most.

*Phew* Thank god I brought some new ones for this episode, right?

Originally Posted by Norn

When klax-hime mentions Dr.Franxx' sins, I wonder how she knew. The most probable and logical response is that because she can communicate telepathically, she should be able to receive too. But if she did, why would she kill mooks that weren't directly involved in the killing of Klaxosaurs? And if she can't read thoughts, then what are those sins she's referring to?

I think you put too much thoughts into the "mook-killing"-part. I believe the show did that just to be flashy. I mean, based on past episodes, it's not really below to show to do such things, right? I'll be happy to be proven wrong in the future episodes, but that's my stand for now.

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Partly true, but then Gargantia had that really WTF moment towards the end when Chamber basically said "it's okay, YOU guys are the real humans because you built me" and the whole speech sounded very much like it used him as an author mouthpiece. Gargantia had similar problems, just much less prominent.

I think it's just a flawed robot/AI POV. I don't think it reflects the author either. I mean, at the end of the day, the human characters finally respects the transhumanists, right? (but the show never brought up the space setting again with the Hideauze, so that's was left unresolved).

[kampfer91]

Originally Posted by Norn

When klax-hime mentions Dr.Franxx' sins, I wonder how she knew. The most probable and logical response is that because she can communicate telepathically, she should be able to receive too. But if she did, why would she kill mooks that weren't directly involved in the killing of Klaxosaurs? And if she can't read thoughts, then what are those sins she's referring to?

He is responsible for the creation of Franxx which is killing Klaxxosaur left and right , compare to a mere foot soldier he is obviously a more important target .

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I think it's just a flawed robot/AI POV. I don't think it reflects the author either. I mean, at the end of the day, the human characters finally respects the transhumanists, right? (but the show never brought up the space setting again with the Hideauze, so that's was left unresolved).

Gargantia episodes had wildly different writers - some had Urobuchi, some other people. I had the impression they changed philosophy and mindset following the author, which made the series feel weird. In fact, I guess DitF may have a similar problem: a creative team that's all over the place. Too many cooks ruin a soup, we say in my country .

[Norn]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I think nobody in this thread came into the show expecting it to be a new classic of anything. I know I didn't. Are there others who thinks differently?

I mean in general. Because it's a collaboration between A-1 and Trigger, it wouldn't be odd to have some expectations.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yep. That's precisely why people never talk about lackluster edgy shows like Guilty Crown now even though it was all the rage in the net back when it aired. I don't think many people even remember it aside from the soundtracks.

Pretty much. Some shows just don't have the longevity to leave a considerable mark in the community.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

*Phew* Thank god I brought some new ones for this episode, right?

We might reach 200 pages

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I think you put too much thoughts into the "mook-killing"-part. I believe the show did that just to be flashy. I mean, based on past episodes, it's not really below to show to do such things, right? I'll be happy to be proven wrong in the future episodes, but that's my stand for now.

I fixate on the "mook-killing" part because I'm curious abougt Klax-hime's "why do you kill my brethren?" angle. I hope they show bits from the klaxosaur point of view, because I can't believe that their fight is just limited to a shared finite resource.

Originally Posted by kampfer91

He is responsible for the creation of Franxx which is killing Klaxxosaur left and right , compare to a mere foot soldier he is obviously a more important target .

I mean, yeah, but wouldn't that require of her to completely read his thoughts? We the public see him going "Ah, she is so beautiful, so perfect", so I find it hard to believe that he telegraphed that he's directly responsible. Although the mooks having a circle formation around him is quite telling. Maybe I'm looking to deeply into this.

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Gargantia episodes had wildly different writers - some had Urobuchi, some other people. I had the impression they changed philosophy and mindset following the author, which made the series feel weird. In fact, I guess DitF may have a similar problem: a creative team that's all over the place. Too many cooks ruin a soup, we say in my country .

Is the creative team behind the story of DiTF that big though? I'd imagine they have at least some level of consensus on how the story should go in grand detail.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I agree with the "move on" part, but I disagree with you throwing yet another strawman argument at me. Nobody said anything about the need to "redefine" anime to be good. I'm just saying that time will eventually tell how good your favorite anime really is.

I'm trying a bit hard to understand what you're trying to say among that rather-chaotic paragraph, but I think I get it.

That said, my point above still applies. After all the dust are settled and all the hoopla is over, time will tell the actual quality of an anime.

just a summary

Spoiler:

ok it was really later night and i already was a lot tired then things start to make less sense, the point was more to say which even things like ships wars, power levels and wars and others sort of possible negative reviews are considered positive for the anime industry cuz they are indicatives of how much characters are liked or "hated" and even too much "natural rant"( peoples rant for the sake of rant) are being saw as "too many peoples watching the show" and they like to check a lot social medias like twitter and others japaneses only social medias going to hiring peoples to just watch over them and read as many comments/posts as possible because this is where comes how they can measure the quality, because again japaneses normally don't like to follow few peoples opnion in general, hey prefer to be themselves their own critics, only nowadasy with social medias like youtube and youtubers and influencers which things are changing a little and some peoples can have some influence however not because they are good on it but because they have a legion of followers which normally most of the times goes with they opnions then instead of count as a "single person" they start to count as many peoples as they followers base can have and agree with them.

the other part was about how japaneses can be curious or want to have they own opnion rater than just "follow someone opnion" specially toward movies, animes and things like that and you can use that to lure them to watch things which they normally could not watch and even negative reviews or bash can lead to make them go watch that things, if you know how to do it, not just positive critics which have effects on make them go watch, both positive and negative can have it effect on them in many cases.

[KPSJ]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Read the articles about bad writings -> compare it to Franxx and you can see that Franxx has those elements of bad writing in it. You're at least smart enough to do that, aren't you?

Of course, no outside blogs or websites will have my personal take on the anime because I'm the source. Do you have outside websites that writes your analysis if you don't write them yourself? Of course not.

To early to tell how it will be remembered Obelisk, we have to wait until its over to make a final judgement. I agree 7-11 could have been cut down or cut out completely[episode 9].