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Old 2014-04-04, 01:44   Link #13181
Jamjam
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There will be people who will be happy if they end up together though. Those who would want to create a very superior magician. Though there will also be those who will hinder not because of personal reasons but for fear of that superior magician being born and maybe for fear of Yotsuba getting very very powerful
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Old 2014-04-04, 01:44   Link #13182
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Originally Posted by fujin of shadows View Post
If Tatsuya and Miyuki ever have children, their will be 8% increase chance of birth defects and 1.2% chance of increase in mortality rate...

If Tatsuya and anybody else, there's a 2% chance of birth defects..

If Tatsuya and Ayako (First Cousins), there's a 4% chance of birth defects......

8% is not much considering how well groomed their genes are.
Ayako is second cousin.
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Old 2014-04-04, 01:51   Link #13183
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May I ask where did you learn that the risk is 8 %? A study before showed that it's more of
20 to 30 percent
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Old 2014-04-04, 01:55   Link #13184
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2 fun fact about Tatsuya:

1st, he is a master-baiter. Everyone absolutely loves using him as bait: his friend (Erika and Leo), his colleagues (Fujibayashi) and his family (Yotsuba).

2nd, he has a nature talent for making women, mature women lose their cool in the heat moment: from Ono Hakura (his frequent victim) to the famous actres, his step-mom, his hawt aunt and even his friend's mother.
He spares no one. This talent occurs so naturally that he himself doesn't realize its existence!!!
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Old 2014-04-04, 01:57   Link #13185
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Did anybody notice but the Ten Master Clans tend to marry just among themselves so there is a little chance of incestuous marriage. Though if cousins are legal to marry then I guess this is a pointless question. Powerful families do tend to marry amongst themselves to preserve power and keep the line pure. (and in this case, to create more powerful magicians)
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Old 2014-04-04, 01:58   Link #13186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bietchie11 View Post
2 fun fact about Tatsuya:

1st, he is a master-baiter. Everyone absolutely loves using him as bait: his friend (Erika and Leo), his colleagues (Fujibayashi) and his family (Yotsuba).

2nd, he has a nature talent for making women, mature women lose their cool in the heat moment: from Ono Hakura (his frequent victim) to the famous actres, his step-mom, his hawt aunt and even his friend's mother.
He spares no one. This talent occurs so naturally that he himself doesn't realize its existence!!!
In other words a master playboy
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:02   Link #13187
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I guess marriage to Lina would produce the most powerful offspring. In terms of magical power she is equal to Miyuki but is better in the sense that she is also a Strategic Class Magician so
TatsuyaxLina = one helluva powerful magician who would probably destroy the world just by sneezing.
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:08   Link #13188
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Originally Posted by Jamjam View Post
Did anybody notice but the Ten Master Clans tend to marry just among themselves so there is a little chance of incestuous marriage. Though if cousins are legal to marry then I guess this is a pointless question. Powerful families do tend to marry amongst themselves to preserve power and keep the line pure. (and in this case, to create more powerful magicians)
It's one of those things where The relations become far enough apart to not be a risk. Like Clan's and Branch Families, or even Old Monarchies.

This math is heavily simplified and probably not completely accurate, but just to make a point

Basically, If you marry someone, and then your grandchildren marry back into your original family, they will be 1/4 related.
Which would effectively be marrying cousins.

If it's your great grand children they will be 1/8 related.
Effectively second cousins.

If it's your great great grandchildren they will be 1/16 related.

So basically once you go past that 1/4 related, you're genetically different enough to not carry very high risks of incest related defects. Once you're in 1/16th territory (1/8th would be fine though too, really) then you're perfectly fine and the risk of defects is about the same from everyone else.

It's kind of like that thing where most people in the world are secretly blood related through some unknown ancestor but it's okay because it won't effect you?

For example; (This ones for you Lucarion)

Genghis Khan has 16 million direct descendants in the world currently. To the point that everyday is the birthday of 43 thousand of them. Statically, it's possible and even probable that his direct descendants can get married to and have relationships with each other, but they're far removed from his original genetic code it wouldn't quite matter. So technically, incest can happen all the time, everyday in fact, and most of us will never know it.
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:10   Link #13189
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Which is exactly my problem. The story seems to say (quite explicitly sometimes) that any stance of that isn't highly nationalistic and militant can only originate from enemies of the nation and people who believe in them are suckers.
I see. Well I never got that from reading it since Tatsuya's goal has no relation to the military and his nation, but rather magician society as a whole and would run counter to the purpose of Japan's 10 Master Clans System.

I agree that the points Sayaka and Sekimoto wanted to raise didn't get much development, but I don't believe there was anything indicating any nationalistic or militant stances. Rather the author was either too lazy to write a longer novel to develop a plot around more non-radical groups, or just more interested in a shorter action centered story line, that requires groups inclined to using violence to achieve their goals. So Tats' group can display the results of the past cruel and inhumane magician development programs, and display why mages are treated as valuable military resources instead of human beings.
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:20   Link #13190
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Originally Posted by Lucarion View Post
I'm saying it's possible because what's happening with their relationship now, is also what happened with Shiva and his wife Parvati before they got married. She was a godlike beauty who dearly loved Shiva and did everything she could to win him over: she attended to him, helped him in his meditations, and kept him company, and while Shiva was tempted by just how beautiful she was--he wouldn't give in. But then she started doing more and more stuff that finally made him realize the depths of her love for him and made him realize how much he loves her too. Which made him want to take her as his bride.

So I believe the same thing will happen here. Miyuki, just needs to keep loving Tatsuya, and after some time...I believe Tatsuya will respond back.
but they are not blood related siblings and I would have to say that is a HUGE obstacle
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:25   Link #13191
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Well it can only be called incest up to 4th generation. So 1st generation are siblings; 2nd, cousins; 3rd, second cousins and 4th, third cousins so any more than that is not incest. I'm not sure but I think it's like that
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:34   Link #13192
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Originally Posted by bietchie11 View Post
2 fun fact about Tatsuya:
Fun fact about Erika:
1) Seen almost naked by Tatsuya,Leo,Miki; Tatsuya having seen it twice(2nd one was with Miki)
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:34   Link #13193
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Spoiler for vol 13:
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:39   Link #13194
anonfr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamjam View Post
Well it can only be called incest up to 4th generation. So 1st generation are siblings; 2nd, cousins; 3rd, second cousins and 4th, third cousins so any more than that is not incest. I'm not sure but I think it's like that
Yeah. It's basically like that. More or less. But once we get into second and 3rd cousin territory you're safe, so the intermarriage of the 10 clans isn't as close as you would think it is. It's not like they marry one family back and forth every generation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pampz21 View Post
Fun fact about Erika:
1) Seen almost naked by Tatsuya,Leo,Miki; Tatsuya having seen it twice(2nd one was with Miki)
So she's an exhibitionist pervert? Cool.
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:40   Link #13195
Lucarion
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Originally Posted by anonfr View Post
It's one of those things where The relations become far enough apart to not be a risk. Like Clan's and Branch Families, or even Old Monarchies.

This math is heavily simplified and probably not completely accurate, but just to make a point

Basically, If you marry someone, and then your grandchildren marry back into your original family, they will be 1/4 related.
Which would effectively be marrying cousins.

If it's your great grand children they will be 1/8 related.
Effectively second cousins.

If it's your great great grandchildren they will be 1/16 related.

So basically once you go past that 1/4 related, you're genetically different enough to not carry very high risks of incest related defects. Once you're in 1/16th territory (1/8th would be fine though too, really) then you're perfectly fine and the risk of defects is about the same from everyone else.

It's kind of like that thing where most people in the world are secretly blood related through some unknown ancestor but it's okay because it won't effect you?

For example; (This ones for you Lucarion)

Genghis Khan has 16 million direct descendants in the world currently. To the point that everyday is the birthday of 43 thousand of them. Statically, it's possible and even probable that his direct descendants can get married to and have relationships with each other, but they're far removed from his original genetic code it wouldn't quite matter. So technically, incest can happen all the time, everyday in fact, and most of us will never know it.

Thanks bro^^ Yeah, there's a 100% those descendants intermarried with each other. And a good chance one of them is in these forums right now without realizing it.


But about the whole defects things...it's really a case to case basis. Think of it as playing with a bunch of legos. Everyone has a set with them and every time we pair up with someone and produce children half our blocks get mixed with or fuse with half the blocks from other sets. Dangerous recessive genes are like warped, useless, or dangerous blocks that people could do without. And the thing about inbreeding is that it increases the chance of these blocks getting passed on, or doubling in a child, which might manifest into serious deformities.

But assuming the dangerous genes DON'T exist. Then there's really no danger whatsoever. It isn't the inbreeding itself that is dangerous but the bad genes. No bad genes = No problem.(Except societal ones, but that is largely subjective). Because of this, assuming that a pair of siblings gene sets are completely healthy, it might even be more responsible for them to breed with each other than it is to breed with other people who might carry such genes. Also, let's say they did have those bad genes, and it caused their offspring to die soon after birth. Even if that is the case, if they can produce one healthy child, that means that child either has no copies of the bad gene, or just one copy of it, making him no different from, or even healthier than a child born of a non-consanguineous pairing. There's also the phenomenon where island nations tend to be quite inbred, but are still able to breed and function like everybody else--because a little inbreeding might actually be good for certain populations because it reinforces good genes (for their particular environment) and weeds out inadequate ones in time.

Also, again brother-sister marriages were done in ancient times. There are dynasties that mostly comprised of brother-sister marriages and no records of the children being born with defects. Heck, if we go back down the line there's a good chance one of our ancestors were brother and sister. Meaning we literally owe our entire existence to incest.
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:46   Link #13196
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Originally Posted by Jamjam View Post
Spoiler for vol 13:
Spoiler for vol 13:
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:47   Link #13197
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Originally Posted by Lucarion View Post
Thanks bro^^ Yeah, there's a 100% those descendants intermarried with each other. And a good chance one of them is in these forums right now without realizing it.


But about the whole defects things...it's really a case to case basis. Think of it as playing with a bunch of legos. Everyone has a set with them and every time we pair up with someone and produce children half our blocks get mixed with or fuse with half the blocks from other sets. Dangerous recessive genes are like warped, useless, or dangerous blocks that people could do without. And the thing about inbreeding is that it increases the chance of these blocks getting passed on, or doubling in a child, which might manifest into serious deformities.

But assuming the dangerous genes DON'T exist. Then there's really no danger whatsoever. It isn't the inbreeding itself that is dangerous but the bad genes. No bad genes = No problem.(Except societal ones, but that is largely subjective). Because of this, assuming that a pair of siblings gene sets are completely healthy, it might even be more responsible for them to breed with each other than it is to breed with other people who might carry such genes. Also, let's say they did have those bad genes, and it caused their offspring to die soon after birth. Even if that is the case, if they can produce one healthy child, that means that child either has no copies of the bad gene, or just one copy of it, making him no different from, or even healthier than a child born of a non-consanguineous pairing. There's also the phenomenon where island nations tend to be quite inbred, but are still able to breed and function like everybody else--because a little inbreeding might actually be good for certain populations because it reinforces good genes (for their particular environment) and weeds out inadequate ones in time.

Also, again brother-sister marriages were done in ancient times. There are dynasties that mostly comprised of brother-sister marriages and no records of the children being born with defects. Heck, if we go back down the line there's a good chance one of our ancestors were brother and sister. Meaning we literally owe our entire existence to incest.
One of those descendants could be even be me or you without knowing it.

Speaking of us descending from incest. There's something I always wondered, story wise. In the bible, Adam and Even were the first people. Then they had 3 sons. Cain, Abel, and Seth.
Did they have any daughters? Where did women come from. Where did people come from ?
Like how did we end up with any people after them if they only had 3 sons?
I'm not bible studied enough to know these things, but a lot of people don't even seem to know the existence of Seth. It's weird.

Anyways, back to topic, sort of? In this current world, if this genetics discussion is for the sake of TatsuyaXMiyuki it wouldn't be strange for them to be able to do some kind of sciency thing to make their child not defective. I mean, they made magicians, they make clones, they make cyborgs and those other weird overdrive magicians that I forget what they're called. Surely they could make a healthy baby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamjam View Post
Spoiler for vol 13:
Yes.
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:48   Link #13198
Lucarion
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Originally Posted by Jamjam View Post
but they are not blood related siblings and I would have to say that is a HUGE obstacle
Yeah, but it might also be the "Love that shakes the world and terrifies the gods".

Can you imagine the outrage people would feel if Tatsuya and Miyuki did choose to marry--publicly? It's delicious! What about if he marries her as Ooguro Ryuuya? Mahesvara marrying the Head of the Yotsuba Clan? People are going to start shaking in fear. Whether or not people know they're brother and sister, the fact that these two godlike mages are going to be together would cause one massive controversy, those who do know will not only balk at the immorality of it all, but also at how arrogant the Yotsuba must be to think that the rules and common sense of society don't apply to them. If the Yotsuba do indeed grow into an entity not even the Master Clans can control...having a brother and sister marry, moreover having the dreaded Mahesvara marry their Head, is like the ultimate show of power and "We don't give a fuck".

And it applies with the novel's theme: Everything about Tatsuya is irregular. An irregular romance, an uncommon love story would suit him best. For his entire existence defies the established system.
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:55   Link #13199
Lucarion
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Originally Posted by anonfr View Post
One of those descendants could be even be me or you without knowing it.

Speaking of us descending from incest. There's something I always wondered, story wise. In the bible, Adam and Even were the first people. Then they had 3 sons. Cain, Abel, and Seth.
Did they have any daughters? Where did women come from. Where did people come from ?
Like how did we end up with any people after them if they only had 3 sons?
I'm not bible studied enough to know these things, but a lot of people don't even seem to know the existence of Seth. It's weird.

Anyways, back to topic, sort of? In this current world, if this genetics discussion is for the sake of TatsuyaXMiyuki it wouldn't be strange for them to be able to do some kind of sciency thing to make their child not defective. I mean, they made magicians, they make clones, they make cyborgs and those other weird overdrive magicians that I forget what they're called. Surely they could make a healthy baby.



Yes.

According to Jewish lore, yes. They did. One account of the Cain and Abel story is that the reason Cain killed Abel was because Abel had a twin sister/fiancee who was more beautiful than Cain's and he wanted her. So he killed Abel for her. Another story has him marrying into another culture and that God created other people on other locations, but I'm not too well-read on that version. And anyone who's read their Bible knows of Seth^^. He's the biblical greatgrandfather of the human race.

Indeed. That's true. Genes are a prominent thing in Mahouka. There's a good chance the technology for "tailor-made babies" already exists.
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Old 2014-04-04, 02:56   Link #13200
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Originally Posted by anonfr View Post
One of those descendants could be even be me or you without knowing it.

Speaking of us descending from incest. There's something I always wondered, story wise. In the bible, Adam and Even were the first people. Then they had 3 sons. Cain, Abel, and Seth.
Did they have any daughters? Where did women come from. Where did people come from ?
Like how did we end up with any people after them if they only had 3 sons?
I'm not bible studied enough to know these things, but a lot of people don't even seem to know the existence of Seth. It's weird.
Genesis 5:4 (KJV):
"And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters."
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