[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[naever]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

If it was talking about Kanon or Shannon exclusively, how would that deny Erika's existence? But it does also hurt Beatrice's hurt a little, as it implies Shkanon. Regardless, the point is that Erika can't be who she claims to be.

Well, here's what I think: that red doesn't concern Erika, but she doesn't know that, and that's enough.

Kinda like Beatrice tries to convince Battler that he doesn't exist in EP4. The fact that he's not Asumu's son only means his mother is Kyrie, but because she phrased it in a way to make it sound as if he wasn't the 'real' Battler, and because he didn't figure that out, he disappeared in a puff of logic... for a while at least.

They are doing exactly the same thing to Erika. For some plot-related reason she hasn't noticed Shkanon, therefore she thinks the person who's not supposed to be there can only be her. She misunderstood, and that was the point.

Whether Erika is imaginary or not doesn't matter, since the red states "Even if we add you...". I take that to mean they're counting her regardless of being really there or not. It might be that, at least in "End", Erika can be who she claims to be. Maybe. I find it very unlikely, but my point is just that this red doesn't address that.

[AuraTwilight]

Well, here's what I think: that red doesn't concern Erika, but she doesn't know that, and that's enough.

Kinda like Beatrice tries to convince Battler that he doesn't exist in EP4. The fact that he's not Asumu's son only means his mother is Kyrie, but because she phrased it in a way to make it sound as if he wasn't the 'real' Battler, and because he didn't figure that out, he disappeared in a puff of logic... for a while at least.

It's not quite the same. Battler essentially denied himself in the way that witches 'quit' a game when they grow bored of it, but for different emotional reasons.

Erika is a piece, a character. Her author/owner, Bern, plans to throw her into the worst kakera possible, and Erika is calling for a dramatic, honorable, and final death to avoid that fate. If it was just a matter of believing a red truth, she could've walked off the stage without all this baloney. The Red Truth took the form of a BULLET, so did some sort of damage to her one way or another, not PERCEIVED damage.

[Kealym]

Small point of order about EP5 - even if it is pretty wonky, and whether or not Hideyoshi was just part of a huge anti-Natsuhi troll, we can be sure that real murder was taking place before the explosion, and that Natsuhi was receiving phone calls via Bern's red that Krauss had been killed shortly after she heard him. Of course, that red only confirms THAT call, and THAT death, but come on.

And about the red that killed Erika ... ... well ... "people / person / characters / humans / bodies / corpses / exists / killed / acknowledged / all of you / everybody / everyone else / unidentified" ... ... my opinion is the same as the general consensus, but if one lands on something they find more satisfying, sure, why the hell not.

[Used Can]

Hey you! Yes YOU, the one reading this post!
Has there been any info on the possibility of an Umineko Rei this Comiket? We're already July and Comiket is next month, right?

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Hey you! Yes YOU, the one reading this post!
Has there been any info on the possibility of an Umineko Rei this Comiket? We're already July and Comiket is next month, right?

He's pretty busy with his new work and makes it sound like its consuming all his time. I doubt a Rei like episode will come out but who knows!

[Bluemail]

Looks like Umineko Rei won't be coming to Summer Comiket, maybe it'll be released in the Winter Comiket along with Ougon 2 or + or whatever it's going to be called. There has been talk that one is coming out sooner or later, at least Ryukishi has released some new Extra TIPS. Alternatively, I'd be fine with patching Tsubasa with the new content.

I have been wondering about Lambdadelta for a long time, even before EP8 was released. The things she has in common with Takano is the 34 name, hair and Miyoko's voice actor (it is the same, right?). But what's up with the Oohohoho-laugh? Takano didn't laugh like that in Higurashi, did she? That is how Satoko laughs... And then comes EP8, where Lambdadelta presents the guests a riddle about eating cakes... And Bernkastel says it was a riddle Lambda was tricked with before. That riddle was presented to Satoko by Keiichi as the countdown to when she could start catching them (Kai episode 2, though in the novel it was in Onikakushi IIRC). What is going on!? Is Ryukishi trolling us or is Lambdadelta supposed to have some connection to Satoko? At least it would explain her and Bernkastel's 'friendship'... It might bring about some interesting implications, about Higurashi and perhaps the witches' real world counterparts.

[Bvitamin]

Originally Posted by Bluemail

I have been wondering about Lambdadelta for a long time, even before EP8 was released. The things she has in common with Takano is the 34 name, hair and Miyoko's voice actor (it is the same, right?).

Actually, it's Eva that has the same VA as Takano did (Miki Itou), not Lambda.

[rogerpepitone]

Miyoko is kid-Takano, who is indeed played by the same actress as Lambdadelta.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kealym

Small point of order about EP5 - even if it is pretty wonky, and whether or not Hideyoshi was just part of a huge anti-Natsuhi troll, we can be sure that real murder was taking place before the explosion, and that Natsuhi was receiving phone calls via Bern's red that Krauss had been killed shortly after she heard him. Of course, that red only confirms THAT call, and THAT death, but come on.

Yeah. And furthermore... that makes no sense. Why did Krauss call on the phone? Why was he killed? That doesn't match the MO of "Beatrice" at all. In fact, the only time we ever saw anything like that was in ep4, and that most certainly wasn't the usual sort of outcome what with everybody turning up dead by just after midnight.

Plus Krauss's bed had blood that was apparently easily suspected to be fake. Why would you kidnap and murder Krauss then fake that he was murdered in bed? None of it really adds up. If there was an anti-Natsuhi conspiracy, I can't imagine actually killing Krauss would've been part of the plan.

But if the defector is "Beatrice," why? The gold was found, and someone went to a lot of effort to fake the First Twilight. Apparently they also went to a lot of effort to fake Krauss's disappearance and possibly Hideyoshi's death as well. Again, what's up with that? If someone is isolated, alone, and unaccounted-for, just kill 'em and stake 'em. No need to be fancy. If that is indeed your goal...

[Cao Ni Ma]

Cant make people believe in witches if you just put a bullet in their heads.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Cant make people believe in witches if you just put a bullet in their heads.

Witches also don't usually take hostages.

[cronnoponno]

The Epitaph was solved, Yasu no longer had the right to be ''Beatrice'', although that doesn't explain how ''Beatrice'' was helping Natsuhi, unless that Beatrice was just a delusion and not just Yasu helping her out.


Therefore, the motive changed from ''The evil snickering witch alchemist that challenges the Ushiromiya family'', to ''Natsuhi is the fucking bitch that threw me off a cliff due to her own inability to conceive, I'll show that bitch, bitch''.

Therefore, the motive changed to Anti-Natsuhi.

Do you think this sounds plausible maybe?

[FirstTwilight]

But Yasu doesn't hate Natsuhi, remember ep VIII.

[cronnoponno]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

But Yasu doesn't hate Natsuhi, remember ep VIII.

Do not forget that that was still ''Beatrice'', I believe at least. And, we are also shown many characters acting ''super-nice'' in that episode. I'm not sure if Episode 8 is enough of a counter-argument to it, but I can't deny it either.

[Used Can]

The problem is in EP5, EP7 and EP8 it was made clear that Beatrice/Yasu never did anything with revenge on mind.

My idea is someone found out about Yasu's situation - before or during the conference, and decided to exploit that card after Battler and Erika found the gold. It was rather clear most of the siblings knew there was something fishy about Kinzo's absences by 1985, but they kept that lie because it was convenient for everyone. Krauss kept the headship of the family and thus the management of the funds (along with the deficit he didn't want anyone to find out), and the siblings had something to extort him with and get some money from him. Moreover, there's also the scene with the letter and Battler receiving the ring that made him the new head. If that wasn't already clear back then, the newest TIP has made it even more clear that the whole thing was staged. Then we have the clearly staged Twilights. So, I'm sure this had little to do with Yasu.

Anyhow, she never loses the rights to be "Beatrice". She's Beatrice because - other than her own delusions and Battler's desires - she's part of that bloodline. No one can take that from her. What she loses are the rights to be the head of the family.

[cronnoponno]

By ''Beatrice'', I meant the delusional, witch part of course.

The witch Beatrice, does not hate Natsuhi, but does Yasu, the non-delusional form hold such a passive attitude?

Although, if Yasu is Shkannon, then she would have obviously recognized his/her voice, so you may be right about someone else finding out about the situation. I highly doubt Yasu was such a superb voice actor that she would be able to trick the woman living with him/her for pretty much ALL of his/her life.

[AuraTwilight]

The witch Beatrice, does not hate Natsuhi, but does Yasu, the non-delusional form hold such a passive attitude?

The witch Beatrice has no business to hate Natsuhi either way, and only Yasu has only right calling Natsuhi mother.

So no, Yasu does not hate Natsuhi, or blame her at all.

[cronnoponno]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The witch Beatrice has no business to hate Natsuhi either way, and only Yasu has only right calling Natsuhi mother.

So no, Yasu does not hate Natsuhi, or blame her at all.

Good point.

Question: Does Eva inherit the headship if Krauss suddenly happens to kick the bucket? Or would it go to Jessica even though Krauss hadn't succeeded the head yet?

[AuraTwilight]

It depends. The set up is that after Kinzo, it goes Krauss, Eva, Rudolf, and Rosa, then the children in order, then the spouses in order (assuming the Epitaph isn't solved, etcetera).

Jessica is treated as the heir since it is assumed that Krauss will get the headship, so if Krauss becomes the Head, then it basically goes "Krauss > Jessica > Eva > Continue as normal..."

And if Eva solved the Epitaph and there were no murders, it'd probably go "Eva > George > Krauss > Continue as normal..."

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by cronnoponno

The witch Beatrice, does not hate Natsuhi, but does Yasu, the non-delusional form hold such a passive attitude?

It's been a while since I've read EP7, but I'm sure there was a part in which Yasu said she didn't hate Natsuhi. In fact, I'm sure it is fair to say she hates no one, but herself. Mind you, I think her resenting people would have made more sense than the whole love thing, but the reality, as presented by the story, is that Yasu's motives stem not from a grudge toward other people, but from her despair, her own complexes and love for the 3 cousins.